Do you feel the love?

[BleakOne]

Damnit Laura, always saying things so much clearer than me.

Totes agree. 

[LauraMars]

P. s. I apologize if that post seemed weird and mispelled I typed it with my thumbs in bed

[Marauder Moe]

The glass ceilings are there because, after a certain point, representing the role realistically means spending more time roleplaying with staff characters and less time roleplaying with player characters.  Then, due to the lack of staff availability and due to the fact that they have things to do besides keep you occupied, playing beyond the glass ceiling can be just as boring and frustrating as pressing up against it.  The latter, at least, still has you rubbing shoulders with PCs and not sapping so much staff time.

I don't think that retirement of a long-lived character should be viewed as a bad thing.  Personally, I think that when you have a character who's had a full and interesting life, reached the glass ceiling in their clan, and has run out of interesting plot possibilities, retiring them is kind of like winning Armageddon.  Let them live happily ever after or at least ride off into the sunset.

[charas]

I agree with you guys, but to be fair, red-robing it up is on the extreme end of the spectrum of what I am talking about. Alas I fear further discussion of the 'glass ceilings' will be problematic since we do have to keep things rather vague up in here.

[Fathi]

I can't really play this much as I used to, but yeah, I feel the love. Sometimes Natious and Hishn respond to my character reports with pictures of cats. I guess I'm just easy to please.

In all seriousness... I'm not really sure what we can do to encourage "veteran" players more than we already do. I mean, veteran players are the ones who tend to get access to things like karma, special apps, sponsored roles, and a lot of plots simply by their virtue of being more acquainted with the game and having some experience under their belts. None of these things are particularly "reserved" for older players, but I imagine it'd be difficult to get a special app for a psionicist approved if you've been playing less than a year.

In my opinion, the best rewards you get for being a player who's been around for a while aren't really the sort of thing staff or other players could just give you. They're in-game things such as having access to knowledge and survival skills that help you keep your character alive longer and get involved in more things.

If any thought is put into strategies to reward players or encourage them to feel the love, I'd rather it go to all players, not just veterans. Veterans have a lot of advantages already, and we shouldn't categorise our playerbase that way, because everyone started out new sometime.

[Kevo]

I feel that, at a certain point, creating echoes, or animating npc's should be allowed for well-trusted, time-tested players. Monitored heavily, of course. It would help staff out, liven up the game, and we would not need thousands of storytellers to weave thousands of stories. Also, others could not be certain whether staff or the player was animating the NPC. IF you see an animation, as it is now, you know it is staff.

I'm sure there are flaws in I am not aware of.

[Cutthroat]

The "glass ceiling" issue isn't as much of one as it used to be, I think - some roles have places in between the equivalent of "blue robe" and "red robe", that don't come with an official promotion but do come with additional responsibilities, and presumably, social rank. Other roles don't seem to as much. Like I said earlier in the thread, I think it's important to consider developing alternatives rather than completely reverse certain changes, and staff seem to be on the right track in that regard.

[Barzalene]

Perhaps mistakenly, I didn't think this was a poll about staff, but about the community. I mean we can't really affect staff, but we can own what we contribute.

Ok, I posted this before reading everything. I also posted before my brain is fully functional.

[Blur]

Perhaps mistakenly, I didn't think this was a poll about staff, but about the community. I mean we can't really affect staff, but we can own what we contribute.

Ok, I posted this before reading everything. I also posted before my brain is fully functional.

Well.... I still love you! I know you don't know me (other than perhaps as that creepy anonymous dude over the internetz ) but I've always admired your horns!


See there is love all around for everyone, sometimes whether we want it or not.  

Editted to add something  useful to the discussion:

To me its not that the player ceiling is too low but that npc and vnpc ceiling is way too high. This might be a shameless plug for my own vision of zalantas but if there weren't any over the top sorcerer kings fuelling the over powered black robes, then I think being a red robe or just a simple elementalist wouldn't be that bad in terms of power. Moving volcanoes might take a bit more prep time but otherwise achieving the absurd would still be possible with greater amount of effort and sacrifice

[ShaLeah]

That was a really well meaning and nice post. However, all I could think after reading this line...

I also do believe that it would be beneficial to the game as a whole to explore new ways of making the elderly players feel loved and appreciated.

SHALEAH GON BE MAD

See? How can you feel the love when they treat you like this? Damned disrespectful newbies. Back when -I- was a newbie we respected our elderly, helped them cross Caravan, paid for their ale, signatured their witty gdb posts and listened attentively to their stories.  And we got killed crossing the desert every day to go to school too. Up hill both ways.

Back on topic.

Without the older, decrepit, experienced, Arm-educated hard knocks survivors err veterans, who would teach the newbies hire it's done the right way?

Things staff can do to show love?

1. Like OP said, get rid of the glass ceiling. Sit the character down, tell him/her that this promotion means such and such and let them have a chance. There is always someone above you, more power more watching.
2. Offer/ask/recommend players to play roles you think are suited for their play styles.
3. Kudos them.
4. Remember, just because you're the gate keepers doesn't mean you're always right.
5. Consider how you add account notes. The way some of them read is cringe worthy, some are downright lies, some even seem like personal attacks.

How about players?
1. Kudos, a lot, often. I know someone who kudos everyone and their mother when they die, that's awesome. Lets you know you impacted their character in some way. I rarely send them out, I should show more love.
2. Lead by example. Teach, mold, cultivate a great player when you see a newb. This is the only way -I- feel is acceptable to bend character for ooc reasons, spotting a newbie.
3. Say thank you. I've had players break character at the end of a scene to tell me they've enjoyed the interaction, that always warms my elderly heart.
4. Vote!

Most importantly? How do we, as players, show STAFF the love?

1. Kudos. Whether it be every week on those character reports or actual kudos, send them in.
2. Treat them with respect.
3. Be grateful. Without them, we wouldn't have this wonderful addiction coursing through our veins.
4. Apologize if you were a fuck. Profusely if necessary.
5. Do what they ask.


The world is harsh enough without our having to bring it out here.

[Wastrel]

I heard shaleah was a real firebrand back in the day

in her youth

[Harmless]

I should mention something.

edit: Ohh..... I get it now.

The reason staff respond better to my reports when I play "good" PCs is... that my reports are "good" also. The tone is better, and I am more thankful and positive and they feed off that and reflect it back to me.

Thanks, Shaleah. I read your post and now I see the light.

[Delirium]

3. Say thank you. I've had players break character at the end of a scene to tell me they've enjoyed the interaction, that always warms my elderly heart.

I love the rest of the post, but I have to take exception to this. Send kudos instead.

I would really rather not cap an amazing scene with an awkward OOC exchange, i.e. do I ignore the OOC and feel like a total jackass or break my own rules and say "er, thanks, you too"? Don't put me in that position, man! Don't break OOC unless you have to.

Maybe that makes me a grouchy hardass but I feel it really does improve the game when we keep strict boundaries of IC/OOC.

[Wastrel]

Sometimes I'll have staff comment on my apps and they'll say things like "interesting concept!" "neat idea!". etc. Thats nice. IT MAKS MUH FEEL GOOD IN THE HEARTSTRINGS. Then there are the times you get terse, one sided comments without being able to respond and you're left feeling like someone kicked you in the head. C'est la vie my nigs.

I wish the wish (lol) system was a little more transparent. Like if you knew if your clan staff was on, or simply if immortals were actually listed under who. But Wastrel! Then everyone would be wishing all the time! Just give people an allowance of a couple wishes a week. Big whoop. If you're a bigshot you get more. Also I hear there are some barriers that stop some staff from getting more involved. Break em down! Aside from animating the dragon and walking into the gaj for a pint and a friendly convo I dont think most things need higher up approval. Lets get dungeonmasteryish! I think all of the staffers have an appreciation for the gameworld. If something comes up that isn't black-moon tier but a little above an imbalanced mastercraft item, just roll with it! imo!

[LauraMars]

3. Say thank you. I've had players break character at the end of a scene to tell me they've enjoyed the interaction, that always warms my elderly heart.

I love the rest of the post, but I have to take exception to this. Send kudos instead.

Word.  Besides, then you can obsessively read and re-read the kudos email, and then put it in a special folder you created just for kudos so that you can look back on all the kudos you've ever received whenever you want to feel warm and fuzzy.

...not that I do that or anything.

[Nyr]

Also I hear there are some barriers that stop some staff from getting more involved. Break em down! Aside from animating the dragon and walking into the gaj for a pint and a friendly convo I dont think most things need higher up approval. Lets get dungeonmasteryish! I think the majority of staffers have an appreciation for the gameworld. If something comes up that isn't black-moon tier but a little above an imbalanced mastercraft item, just roll with it! imo!

Not sure what you're hearing (or from whom) but what barriers are you talking about?

[ShaLeah]

3. Say thank you. I've had players break character at the end of a scene to tell me they've enjoyed the interaction, that always warms my elderly heart.

I love the rest of the post, but I have to take exception to this. Send kudos instead.

Word.  Besides, then you can obsessively read and re-read the kudos email, and then put it in a special folder you created just for kudos so that you can look back on all the kudos you've ever received whenever you want to feel warm and fuzzy.

...not that I do that or anything.

You don't have to, I personally don't mind it. Better than not getting official kudos and not knowing your character affected them.

[manonfire]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2V_ZT-nyOs

[Eurynomos]

As to the glass ceiling conundrum --

As Laura pointed out, it creates a schism when someone is promoted to a rank where their responsibilities mostly entail over-arching changes to their clan. They aren't really supposed to be dealing with the day to day, they have underlings for that. They would be dealing with much 'larger deals'. In the case of House Salarr, for example, a Master Agent or equiv. title would be dealing with those 20-30k orders from the Templarate to arm their armies, or a Kadian equiv. would be supplying uniforms for the rank-and-file of House Fale. These deals are almost 100% virtual. While we could make these deals non-virtual for the sake of a PC in this position -- All that does is create more work for us. Whenever we have an NPC dealing with an NPC, we have to stop ourselves and say "Now wait a minute...Who is benefiting from this? How much time is this taking me?" We would rather spend that time on PC to PC interaction, always.

Beyond this, yes, Staff does wish to have a strong hand in what an organization is doing. There is a reason this game has functioned and prospered for over 20 years -- Change happens, when it makes sense. There are a lot of actions that take place due to attrition, boredom, and for the sake of fun which are TOTALLY understandable. I have been there myself as a player, wanting to mix things up and spice up what I perceived as an otherwise dull playground. However, in the case of these large organizations like Salarr and the Templarate, such moves would be weighed carefully, by others of similar rank, or greater rank. The higher a PC gets in these organizations, the easier it is for them to make sweeping changes overnight. Combined with most of the job being 100% virtual, and not having day-to-day stuff to do...It usually leans towards decisions that are exaggerated and melodramatic, just to get something done.

There is a fine balancing act between vertical and horizontal promotions -- Something we have been instituting is creating more latitude to a role, with more customization and horizontal promotions. In the case of House Salarr, this might be something like 'taking over X account', while with a Templar it might be 'learning cool new thing X', or in the case of a Noble, taking over control of 'organization Y' within the House, or being put in charge of handling X Y Z that needs doing. These added responsibilities show that you are becoming more valuable as an employee or family member to your organization, without leading to the aforementioned problems with shattering the glass ceiling and letting people in to roles that would (honestly) be pretty boring if played properly.

[James de Monet]

I feel that, at a certain point, creating echoes, or animating npc's should be allowed for well-trusted, time-tested players. Monitored heavily, of course. It would help staff out, liven up the game, and we would not need thousands of storytellers to weave thousands of stories. Also, others could not be certain whether staff or the player was animating the NPC. IF you see an animation, as it is now, you know it is staff.

I'm sure there are flaws in I am not aware of.

This is an intriguing idea. The problem that I see with it is one-sidedness. Even if a player is a consummate professional, and never directly abuses the system, human nature will not generally make them want to create echoes that harm their character.

For example, say you are playing a Gemmed magicker. Writing echoes about how people start to get afraid of you when you get angry is realistic, and adds to the game world. Writing echoes about how people spit at you, and glare or ignore you when you walk into a bar is also realistic, but I can't help but imagine it would be far less common (especially when the player had no intention of REACTING to said mistreatment - reacting in way to overcome it just turns that negative back into a positive).

Maybe there would have to be a restriction that such abilities could not be used to relate to your own character in any way. Dunno.


I also wanted to say: Kudos are not a tool meant for veterans. Everybody loves kudos! So, even if you're new and uncertain of the game world, if someone does something that makes you OOCly enjoy the game more (your character doesn't have to like it!), send them kudos!  Veterans, send kudos to new people! A scene doesn't have to go 100% perfectly to warrant kudos. You can always note in the request that '(x) could have gone better, but (y) was awesome!'.

Share the love!  Make a scene.

[Marauder Moe]

If you're a well-trusted player and you want to do environmental echoes or affect big plots then you should join the staff.

[Wastrel]

Also I hear there are some barriers that stop some staff from getting more involved. Break em down! Aside from animating the dragon and walking into the gaj for a pint and a friendly convo I dont think most things need higher up approval. Lets get dungeonmasteryish! I think the majority of staffers have an appreciation for the gameworld. If something comes up that isn't black-moon tier but a little above an imbalanced mastercraft item, just roll with it! imo!

Not sure what you're hearing (or from whom) but what barriers are you talking about?

The stopgap that forces all items/npcs/rooms to be approved by an admin or higher, really.

[MeTekillot]

That does not seem like a very good idea to me.

[Nyr]

Also I hear there are some barriers that stop some staff from getting more involved. Break em down! Aside from animating the dragon and walking into the gaj for a pint and a friendly convo I dont think most things need higher up approval. Lets get dungeonmasteryish! I think the majority of staffers have an appreciation for the gameworld. If something comes up that isn't black-moon tier but a little above an imbalanced mastercraft item, just roll with it! imo!

Not sure what you're hearing (or from whom) but what barriers are you talking about?

The stopgap that forces all items/npcs/rooms to be approved by an admin or higher, really.

I wouldn't call it a stopgap (by definition, that's a temporary way of dealing with something).  This is a procedure--we do this every time for consistency's sake.  Yes, we do have an approval process for new items, new NPCs, and new rooms.  This is true in general and it is doubly true when it is for a plot-related event.  Right now I've got a few things I need to review for a project I've taken on; I let the storyteller know that I'd be able to review it today.  In this case and most others, the review process is there to catch mistakes such as typos, bugs, or more systemic issues that need to be addressed.  Having that extra set of eyes on it really helps!  Even when we have this, we still occasionally have some areas where things slip past because it's a typo, but not an obvious one (for instance, juts and just are both spelled correctly, but mixing up the letters can make one into the other very easily).   Additionally, it helps in training.  There have been a few times when a craft has been submitted and I caught a problem with it that wouldn't be noticed unless it was implemented (usually).  I let the staffer know and pointed out the issue.  Finally, while it's not something I've seen, having that kind of requirement (anything new being built should be approved specifically by an admin+) also lessens the chances for favoritism and unfair situations.

It introduces delays for having things added to the game, yes, but not large delays.  I think the tradeoff is definitely for the betterment of the game.

[Malken]

And I think it's those procedures that make Armageddon such a high-quality mud compared to many other muds I've tried in the past.