Barehanded hunting

[palomar]

I had a tribal human warrior long ago who sometimes fought raptors barehanded. It was less a means of hunting and more something of a personal test or way to prove his worth as a defender of the tribe. Only raptors though, no other critters.

[Wug]

Send in a request if you have specific questions.

This should be common sense though. Don't fight big, dangerous animals barehanded in an attempt to unrealistically increase your character's skills. But if a kankfly buzzes around you, you don't need to draw out a spear to try and swat it.

[Riev]

It has little to do with realism.

I have said it before and I will say it again, Zalanthas is a world where people throw fireballs from their hands, dragons exist, you can fight creatures the size of a house with a sword made out of wood and win....So on and so forth.

Some guy punches a vestric to death and suddenly we are playing the realism card?

Let's just leave it at, "Codedly it is considered twinkish and this is an OOC restriction." Which is only the truth, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Dman. Have my babies. I never understood why "Listen. We consider this to be twinkish behavior, so don't do it." was so taboo. If you don't give us restrictions, we're going to push the limits. Then staff say "Dude. Barehanding things is against the rules." and when we say "what rules? I didn't see that" they say "Well, we consider it against the rules and you should have known that."

[Potaje]

I used to do it to Gizhats, just for the challenge and the knowledge that I could.

Then I found out it was bad.

It was very, very bad.

I got punished. Don't get punished guys, it goes into your account notes and makes staff go 

You an your Gizhat den, I remember watching and pissing you off because I would go in and kill it and you would have to get another.

[Nyr]

Yes, in a certain light, I imagine one can make anything seem realistic.

If you want to make Amos the scrab wrestler, run it by staff.  I don't think that's necessarily "unrealistic," it just might be frowned upon, and you probably want to make sure it's on the level with staff.
If you want to tussle with raptors barehanded and have a good IC reason behind it, run it by staff.  See above!  We really would rather know in advance and talk to you rather than find out afterwards when someone reports it.

If you just randomly wander out and specifically do stupid crap that is obviously intended to skill up your PC--just because you can--it's likely that you'll get stuff stripped from your character.

[DustMight]

valid point, Desertman

[Wastrel]

I never understood this game's massive contradiction between hardcore roleplay and hardcore grinding

[DustMight]

I never understood this game's massive contradiction between hardcore roleplay and hardcore grinding

What's to understand?  Hardcore grinding as one might do in WOW is obviously not hardcore RP.  There is place and time to build skills and sometimes with intense focus - but grinding to the exclusion of character development or for the sole purpose of buffing a skill in a manner that damages the game for everyone would be bad. 

At least that's my take on it.  In reality, I'm just another player - but I try to keep it pretty real.  I travel slowly between cities, I will allow characters to make mistakes that I know won't work out well for them and such. I'm no paragon and make my share of RP mistakes - but rest assured if I get close to anything that smacks of skill grinding I msg the immortals and fill my bio with thoughts and explanations. 

[Rhyden]

My last warrior punched out a scrab one time. He was anything but twinkish and was around the 50 days played mark by then. And he still got his ass handed to him by lots of stuff (tm).

It's not really twinkish, unless you're constantly being reamed and not RPing your injuries. If you don't have a really buff warrior, you're most likely going to get killed doing something this stupid anyways.

[chrisdcoulombe]

If you break your weapon on a scrab go ahead and punch it out.

[Vwest]

We used to punch skeet in the Byn.

You can call it whatever you want, it was hilarious and made for good scenes, every time.

[Lizzie]

I have no problem with restricting barehanded fighting against big nasty things. I can't imagine any circumstance in which I would ever have one of my non half-giant characters attempt to punch out a bahamet, for instance. The problem is though, is that the code doesn't support the restriction. It shouldn't be -possible- to punch out a bahamet. I don't know why the code allows it at all. When you try to kick a sparring dummy, it automatically kicks you back. This should be the same situation with a bahamet. If you try to punch one, it should knock you on your ass, every time. You should -never- be able to succeed in causing HP or stun damage to a bahamet with your fists. The idea is ridiculous, and not believeable.

You should also not get -any- skill boost benefit for trying it. That way, you wouldn't need arbitrary OOC restrictions. There'd be no reason to do it, other than if you want your character to die.

[hatchets]

I have never been kicked by a sparring dummy I feel left out.

[Vwest]

I have no problem with restricting barehanded fighting against big nasty things. I can't imagine any circumstance in which I would ever have one of my non half-giant characters attempt to punch out a bahamet, for instance. The problem is though, is that the code doesn't support the restriction. It shouldn't be -possible- to punch out a bahamet. I don't know why the code allows it at all. When you try to kick a sparring dummy, it automatically kicks you back. This should be the same situation with a bahamet. If you try to punch one, it should knock you on your ass, every time. You should -never- be able to succeed in causing HP or stun damage to a bahamet with your fists. The idea is ridiculous, and not believeable.

You should also not get -any- skill boost benefit for trying it. That way, you wouldn't need arbitrary OOC restrictions. There'd be no reason to do it, other than if you want your character to die.

Yeah, sounds like a quick, easy fix compared to just saying 'don't be dumb, guys'.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Maybe specific sparring dummies kick, but I have yet to run into it, err get kicked I mean.

[Gimfalisette]

It has little to do with realism.

I have said it before and I will say it again, Zalanthas is a world where people throw fireballs from their hands, dragons exist, you can fight creatures the size of a house with a sword made out of wood and win....So on and so forth.

Here is my perspective on when realism is required in Zalanthas and when it is not:

If a thing in Zalanthas has a counterpart in the real world, then realism is required. E.g. hunting.

If a thing in Zalanthas has counterparts only in worlds of fantasy, then realism is not required. E.g. fireballs being cast from people's hands via magic. (Fireballs being cast from people's hands by flamethrowers would, however, require realism.)

That's why Zalanthas has both physics and magic, and there are self-consistent rules for each.

In short, I do not believe the "but there are fireballs!" argument is valid to defend everything imaginable in Zalanthas.

[ShaLeah]

I have said it before and I will say it again, Zalanthas is a world where people throw fireballs from their hands, dragons exist, you can fight creatures the size of a house with a sword made out of wood and win....So on and so forth.

In short, I do not believe the "but there are fireballs!" argument is valid to defend everything imaginable in Zalanthas.

You know I lurve you like a red-headed stepchild, D-Man, but I agree with Gimfalisette.

[hatchets]

I have to agree with Desert on this one. Hunting would be too broad a stroke as a similarity between the real world to the zalanthian world.

I mean it sounds good and all, till you go look at a bahamet. Compare that to something real world. Or look at the half-giant next to you.

It is all fantasy and all fireballs in the end, and the only restrictions and known truths are that which are defined by staff.

Just as in any tabletop, DM rules all just got to mentally adjust to accept it when they lay down the law.

[Yam]

I can rationalize throwing a fireball at a big monster in Zalanthas but I can't really rationalize a human going up a big monster with fists. In MMORPGs you can play a dude who punches stuff to death, but that's an MMORPG. The gameworld here has a lot of the same rules as real life. Humans are pretty fragile and they can't fight giant insects with their fists effectively. It would be incredibly, unrealistically stupid for a human in Zalanthas to try to fight a beetle with their fists because they value their life and their limbs. We, as players, may not value their life as much as we value their skills, so we might make them stupid enough to do unrealistic stuff. There needs to be some kind of rule against doing things this unrealistically stupid or else we would often see some dorf saddling up to go fite beetle wit fist.

tldr I agree with gimf

[Cutthroat]

It's not really a question of realism vs. fantasy. It's a question of roleplay. Many animals have features that strongly discourage punching. Some of them can fly. Others have chitinous shells. Some have spikes/antlers/etc. Some have pincers and some are biters. The question you ask is not "is this realistic?" but "why is my character about to punch something that can easily destroy my hand and/or arm?" And if you go through with that then it's your responsibility to RP the results realistically. If you're not willing to do that (I think most players are, though), there are plenty of H&S muds with monk classes.

[Suhuy]

I'm pretty certain that in all of Conan the Barbarian's exploits, or similar characters in the fantasy genre, he surely encountered at least one large, fanged beast or monster that, while fighting it, he lost his sword at some point and had to take the thing down with his bare hands and strangle it to death. I'm pretty certain that actions such as these have occurred in numerous films and stories, none of which were any more or less unrealistic than Armageddon.

I support Desertman's words here. It's just like saying don't practice backstab while sparring on the grounds that it's unrealistic. It's 100% not unrealistic (but it's an easily exploitable code which, if trained as often as regular sparring, probably makes you into a mad pkilling machine). If I paint a little red dot on your armor where one of your vitals lie and practice thrusting my blade in that exact spot over and over, then I'm practicing backstab. "Oh, but backstab isn't always a stab in the back, it can also be gouging someone's eyes out - how do you do that in the sparring hall" you say? Yes, but if I'm the one practicing the backstab, then I'm the one who gets to decide what form of "backstab" I'm doing. And in the case of sparring, it would be me practicing to strike a vital which my sparring buddy has covered up with armor to avoid getting (overly) hurt.

The bottom line is if it's an easily exploitable code then we shouldn't be doing it on the grounds that it's an easily exploitable code. But to try and rationalize how fighting monsters barehanded or practicing backstab in a sparring ring is unrealistic.... is an unrealistic thing to try and rationalize IMO. Sure, in some cases barehanded hunting is not only unrealistic, it's just plain idiotic. But then I'm confident that in those scenarios the code will take care of the idiot in question - and show them the mantis head. A human trying to wrestle the real-world equivalent of a tiger to the ground is pretty darn unrealistic, but a mul or half-giant could potentially pull it off - and maybe he wants to to show to the world just how badass he is. Sounds like a case by case basis. Me, personally, I won't do it with my characters for the simple reason that it's an easily exploitable code and staff have forbidden it - and that's the only reason I won't do it.

[catchall]

I'm not sure how often I've harped on this particular point, but a counterpoint to Desertman is desperately needed.

You can absolutely make arguments from realism (whether that is apt here is not something I'm taking a stance on).  "But fireballs and dragons?" Dragons are realistic. Fireballs are realistic.  Fireballs, for example, are part of the gameworld, and they behave in consistent ways according to the natural laws of Zalanthas, which is similar to how we would expect fire in the real world to behave.  They burn items; they don't make items smelly.  They take away HP when they hit a character; they don't lower the character's bank balance. And on and on.  Going straight to "Fireballs!" as an argument against realistic roleplay is simply absurd.  It is a tremendous failure of imagination to suppose there is no possible expectation of internal consistency and realism in a fantasy world.

If you don't like the word "realism," substitute "consistency."  Zalanthas is a world governed by natural laws, and without a reasonable expectation of their internal consistency, there is no benchmark for roleplaying realistically.  It's 100% realistic (consistent) for Tektolnes to take the form of a dragon, because within the world of Zalanthas, he possesses the power necessary to undergo such a transformation in accordance with the natural laws that govern the world.  It's not realistic for your PC to "emote turns into a dragon and eats you!!!"  If you actually take the Desertman doctrine seriously (which obviously none of us really do, otherwise we wouldn't be playing an RPI), that is just as valid an emote as any other.  If the real no-no is twinking your skills, then "emote turns into a dragon!" is perfectly fine, since it gives no coded advantage.

Don't believe me?  How about the docs?

"...the staff expect you to try to play realistically"

"As long as practice is done realistically, no one will mind too much."

"...playing roles realistically and acting responsibly with the code"

"Please be realistic in what you can and can't alter about an object."

"...doing things that your character would not realistically do (elves riding mounts, failing to react to a sorcerer)"  (OMG, talking about behaving "realistically" in the same breath as mentioning elves and sorcerers!)

[Riev]

I feel like everyone isn't "getting" what Desertman meant. At least in my eyes, he's saying that pulling this "you shouldn't barehanded hunt because its not realistic" is saying "You shouldn't do that, because in the real world we can't do that."

He's saying, stop playing the "realism" card about things you want as a point, and just say "Staff have determined this is NOT okay as its just exploiting something you can do in code, but might not necessarily want to do in character."

I mean. There are fucking dragons. Lets play play the "realistically you wouldn't punch a scrab to death" when you have people getting eaten by mekillots and rolling some insane Epic Fortitude Save and living. Or when you have "Well, Zalanthas aren't humans. They heal faster, they are stronger" etc etc.

You can't have one, and not have the other. This isn't the fucking bible, where you pick and choose what is literal, and what is hyperbole.

Barehand fighting creatures with much more than a hide to them is likely considered on the twinky side. Just don't do it, unless the creature is definitively smaller than you (like a jozhal or a vestric). Why? Because the Dungeonmaster said so, so stop metagaming it.

[catchall]

I feel like everyone isn't "getting" what Desertman meant. At least in my eyes, he's saying that pulling this "you shouldn't barehanded hunt because its not realistic" is saying "You shouldn't do that, because in the real world we can't do that."

If that's the case, he simply doesn't "get" what is meant by "realistic."

There are fucking dragons.

Fortunately, fucking dragons are consistent with the fucking laws that govern the world of Zalanthas.  (Hmm, I'm not sure those "fucking"s made that any more convincing, but when in Rome..)

Or when you have "Well, Zalanthas aren't humans. They heal faster, they are stronger" etc etc.

You can't have one, and not have the other. This isn't the fucking bible...

Of course you can have one and not the other.  Why the hell not?  "Fantasy world."  It doesn't mean "anything goes."  It means "the rules are different than what you are used to in the real world, but there are still rules."  If staff declares that part of the setting of Zalanthas is that Zalanthans heal super-fast (they haven't, but they could), then they heal super-fast, and healing super-fast becomes 100% realistic because it is consistent with the laws governing the world.

[Suhuy]

catchall, I don't think anyone REALLY means to suggest that because there are dragons and fireballs then therefore anything goes. All Desertman was really getting at with that statement was where he said:

you can fight creatures the size of a house with a sword made out of wood and win... Some guy punches a vestric to death and suddenly we are playing the realism card?

Dragons and fireballs have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, and I'm quite certain no one who has ever used that argument meant it in the way you're interpreting it. It's true, yes, I can take down a creature the size of a house with a sword made out of wood. It's a "slashing weapon" but I don't care how much you sharpen wood, I don't think it's gonna actually slash open the hide of a mekillot very well - with a weapon like that you're really just bludgeoning your opponent to death. Yet down the house-sized monster goes and no one voices a single complaint about this, but I show up to barehand a vestric and it's time to file in reports to the staff? Where's the consistency in that?

But some players and staff have now observed in this thread that small creatures are okay. I think for the sake of avoiding having players being unfairly punished, some distinctions needs to be made here, because I could make a pretty sizable list of small creatures (and I'm not talking kank flies here) that could, arguably, be taken down barehandedly, of creatures which most definitely should not, and quite a few gray areas where it may more depend on the barehanded person in question. If we go by that, then we're not saying barehanded fighting is bad, don't do it, we're saying don't barehand large NPCs.

Personally, I don't think that's what this is about though. I think, like the no sparring backstab rule, it's about limiting the easy exploitation of combat skills for fairness' sake. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying, let's call a spade a spade.