How do you feel about PC killing?

[Nyr]

I will be as metagamey as possible. I will bend the code as far as I possibly can.

Let me know how that works out for you.  Your PC might survive an encounter or get another PC killed, but your account might not survive staff's encounter with it if we notice you being 'as metagamey as possible' or 'bending the code as far as you possibly can.'

[TheWanderer]

PC killing? I'm a lover, not a fighter.

[Wastrel]

I will be as metagamey as possible. I will bend the code as far as I possibly can.

Let me know how that works out for you.  Your PC might survive an encounter or get another PC killed, but your account might not survive staff's encounter with it if we notice you being 'as metagamey as possible' or 'bending the code as far as you possibly can.'

Cool, I love being passively aggressively threatened by an imm on the gdb.  

Because players dont act in their own interest, right? That never happens? I'm not saying I'm not going to RP, but I'm first going to be thinking about what I can do to survive/kill before anything else. If coded actions back up my characters will for self-perservation better than emoting, so be it.

[Barzalene]

PC killing? I'm a lover, not a fighter.

This too shall pass.

[janeshephard]

Hey, if you RP right you get more karma in a review and get some of the 'other' class/race choices.

I don't think there's a punishment for reporting behavior you feel is metagamey and out of place. If I'm some giant snowball crashing down the Known I hope everyone runs away rather than try to engage me in combat. You know?

[Nyr]

Cool, I love being passively aggressively threatened by the imms on the gdb. 

Because players dont act in their own interest, right? That never happens? I'm not saying I'm not going to RP, but I'm first going to be thinking about what I can do to survive/kill before anything else. If coded actions back up my characters will for self-perservation better than emoting, so be it.

You stated you were planning to be as metagamey as possible and that you would bend the code as far as you could.  I couldn't tell if you were kidding or not.  Saying that we police that kind of thing is not a passive-aggressive threat--it's how we run the game.  We don't want to see that here and we'll dock karma or ban people that do those kinds of things.

You should involve RP in what you are doing.  If you're going to assassinate someone, you have no obligation to give them a wonderful scene, because your goal is to assassinate them.  You should roleplay in advance of it and if possible, do hemotes and thinks and feels during it, but sometimes things get hectic and you have to go with "backstab dude" or "throw dude off cliff."  Afterwards, you should roleplay and also report on it because it helps us (and you, too!) get into the mind of your character--because the time of imminent crisis is over (where failure could have happened), and now you have to RP to cover your tracks or move the body or whatever.

This is fine:

Dude emotes and solo rps and rps with a guy about taking out this other stump dude that neither of them like.  They hate stumps.
Dude goes after the stump; he's sneaking and hiding.  The stump doesn't see him.
Dude thinks about it some more, then hemotes and gets into position, waits a moment, and springs the attack.
The stump is dead, one hit kill.
Dude grabs up the corpse, rifles through the belongings the stump had, and takes them to the other guy that was all "this dude needs to be killed!"
They have drinks and chat about their next stump victim.

Now, that looks fine, but all the stump saw was a mantis head.  He might put in a complaint, but all he'll get in response is "yep, everything looks fine--they roleplayed in advance, afterwards, and even during, not that you were able to see it." 

(That doesn't mean the stump needs to change everything and start being metagamey and bend the code as far as possible, though!)

On the same token, this is not fine:

Dude knows people are after him.
Dude doesn't think, feel, emote at all.  He just runs like hell, spam-running his mount to a nearby quit room and quits out.  He then returns a few minutes later to skedaddle away to a safer spot and quits out there knowing that he can't be touched by those people now.

That's stupid and deserves action from staff.

There's all sorts of "okay" and "not-okay" things in between those two extremes.  Sometimes there's some RP but not a lot.  Sometimes there's a lot more code reaction and action and not much RP stuff (but that's generally okay from time to time--for instance, when a volcano is erupting beneath your feet, and you need to fucking run away, the "running away" is the part of the roleplay you need to get a good handle on, no?).  In the end, if you're spending time fleshing out your character...for the most part, you're going to react just fine when the unexpected happens.

And sometimes you'll get that mantis head and go "...uh.  Shit."

[razorback]

I think we've all be guilty of panic mode at least once in our Arm careers, but I can't remember any deaths where there wasn't any RP involved at all. My experiences so far have been great (can you use that with perma-death?!), both on the giving and receiving end.

[razorback]

"...uh.  Shit."

I've said this, a few times.

[janeshephard]

skedaddle. This word is sponsored by Nyr.

[Dar]

I still feel guilty about my last PK. I really suck at PKs I participate in personally. My adrenaline shoots high up and I'm too shaky to give them a proper scene. PKs I mastermind or perform through other's hands work much smoother though.


Edit to add: I usually weigh my options heavily before performing a PK and try my best to avoid it. "Except" when I am being hired to perform a PK. In that case, 9/10 times I relay the responsibility for caring to whoever's paying me, since I'm just an instrument. In those cases, I rarely feel guilty about the PK. Though I still feel guilty if that PK wasnt very interesting.

I've literally hated players (not characters but their players) before as my hitmen characters, because it seems every time they had a problem, they were solving it by hiring me. My characters loved them of course, a steady client, yada, yada.

[LauraMars]

"...uh.  Shit."

I've said this, a few times.

Me too.

Darn you, EGAN (and Maso?)

And Halaster.

[Wastrel]

How do veterans keep their PCs alive for so long if not by employing a variety of gamey tricks? Your PC wanted? Just take a break from Arm. Some huge event coming up that will probably get your PC killed? Discretely miss out on the action. You wanna kill someone? Ok, whats the player like? Noob? Low-skilled? High skilled? Whats are his playtimes? Take these factors into consideration and start planning. The list goes on. When I say metagamey this is what I mean.

[Malken]

Veterans have all read Machiavelli's The Prince, that's how they survive for so long.

[LauraMars]

Your PC wanted? Just take a break from Arm. Some huge event coming up that will probably get your PC killed? Discretely miss out on the action.

Hm. Those are incredibly boring options.  I feel sorry for anybody who does this.

You wanna kill someone? Ok, whats the player like? Noob? Low-skilled? High skilled? Whats are his playtimes? Take these factors into consideration and start planning.

Yeah, but wouldn't your character realistically need to consider these things before taking someone out?  I mean...there's nothing "meta gamey" about trying to find out the strengths and weaknesses of your enemy or target.  I'd evaluate my mailman's strengths and weaknesses tomorrow if I were a professional assassin hired to assassinate him.  And in Armageddon it's totally possible (indeed, it is required) to find out this information through in character channels.  As for playtimes - uhh?  I don't see how planning to kill some dude when he's actually online is blatantly abusing the code.

Edit: Ohhh wait - you mean evaluate the PLAYER, through OOC channels ("I hear LauraMars never takes subguilds with the GetOutOfJailFree skill - she's toast!").  Yeah, this is why we generally don't talk about who we're playing.

Veterans have all read Machiavelli's The Prince, that's how they survive for so long.

I'VE NEVER READ IT

[Wastrel]

Laura, I never said evaluate the player through ooc channels. Thats fucked up. However, you can deduce all sorts of things about a player just by watching him or roleplaying with him for a bit. Or asking specific questions about the pc. You're stating the obvious here. As far as avoiding conflict just to avoid your PC dying, just speaking from observation. A lot of veteran players do it. Risk is not a word I think some players factor into their roleplay. And as far as killing PCs go, without being specific, there are certain skills that are just far, far, far more potent than others. Just use those ones to kill. Whatever works.

There is no code abuse here; just tenacity, forethought and a willingness to do whatever it takes to accomplish the goals you set for your pc.

Stone cold like a g.

[BadSkeelz]

Keeping yourself alive through logging out to avoid deadly things is kind of missing the whole point of Armageddon. I've had characters live a long-ass time, but it was through mitigating risks through in-game circumstances, not avoiding them entirely.

[janeshephard]

There is no code abuse here; just tenacity, forethought and a willingness to do whatever it takes to accomplish the goals you set for your pc.

Well I'm really glad Nyr took an interest in these posts of yours Wastrel

[Dar]

I'm pretty sure the guy is trolling. I wouldnt go all "get out the twink brand and get it red hot" on him just yet.

[Barzalene]

How do veterans keep their PCs alive for so long if not by employing a variety of gamey tricks? Your PC wanted? Just take a break from Arm. Some huge event coming up that will probably get your PC killed? Discretely miss out on the action. You wanna kill someone? Ok, whats the player like? Noob? Low-skilled? High skilled? Whats are his playtimes? Take these factors into consideration and start planning. The list goes on. When I say metagamey this is what I mean.

Luck. For every pc that lives a while there are a whole bunch of others that didn't last nearly long enough.

[Nyr]

How do veterans keep their PCs alive for so long if not by employing a variety of gamey tricks?

By knowing or learning who not to piss off and who to befriend, perhaps?

Your PC wanted? Just take a break from Arm.

Good luck, that will often get you a storexecution.

Some huge event coming up that will probably get your PC killed? Discretely miss out on the action.

I guess.  That'd be pretty boring though.  "Oh man I missed that event that everyone else was at and risked their characters at in order to participate in the story...and all I got was this lousy character that is so lame it won't participate in events that might get it killed."  Said player is not a veteran, just boring.

You wanna kill someone? Ok, whats the player like? Noob? Low-skilled? High skilled? Whats are his playtimes? Take these factors into consideration and start planning.

The problem with this is this part:

Ok, whats the player like?

No, find out what the character is like.  What can they do?  Are they friends with anyone dangerous?  Are they enemies of anyone dangerous?  When are they generally around--are you going to have to get someone else to do it instead of you?  Take these factors into consideration and start planning.  People DO that, definitely, and they should!

The list goes on. When I say metagamey this is what I mean.

If your complaint is that some people live longer than a month, that's not metagaming--that's mostly luck, skill, and determination.  If your underlying issue is that you want to find ways to live longer, the best way to do that is to make your PC invaluable to someone powerful, never piss them off, and then ditch them if they get a more powerful enemy than them.  Purely by playing a social character, you can rise to power and influence. 

If you've never had a PC last longer than a month, yes, maybe everyone looks like they are using "metagame tricks" to have their PCs live a long life.  On the other hand, if you have children younger than the amount of RL years you've invested into your character, you might well think everyone else is playing the game wrong.

[X-D]

How do veterans keep their PCs alive for so long if not by employing a variety of gamey tricks? Your PC wanted? Just take a break from Arm. Some huge event coming up that will probably get your PC killed? Discretely miss out on the action. You wanna kill someone? Ok, whats the player like? Noob? Low-skilled? High skilled? Whats are his playtimes? Take these factors into consideration and start planning. The list goes on. When I say metagamey this is what I mean.

Veterans don't. As somebody already said, There are usually many PCs that are dead between long lived PCs, even to vet players. Of course, maybe what a vet considers long lived and what you do are different things...Alright,  If you consider a 10-20 day 3-6 month PC long lived, I can go with that I suppose. How to keep a PC alive...Um, act in a realistic fashion.  Some parts of that go for your PCs entire life. Like #1 Templars are the law...period, You have no power compared to them, Messing with a  Templar on the Templars turf is always a risk best avoided. Vet players know this and even better, Know that the PC knows it, and if they have 5 days or 105 days played, They will still bow, be polite, ready to bride, whatever...any Templar no matter how new.

#2 Sorta goes with #1 Know your PC is a pussy compared to the world...Have your PC know this. Now sure, this is something your PC might at least somewhat grow out of. But by then they are VERY old..as in RL years and even then they still understand that there are others who are still bigger and stronger.

Survival by not logging in? Nah, If you pay attention, on any major event, the really long lived PCs make a point to log in...because all of us look for that sort of death for the PC anyway. PC wanted, Heh, Bring it on!

The part about wanting to kill someone...Um, that sort of planning is realistic. And sorta hard to interact with another PC in any way if you do not know when they play. It is no more bad form to use that knowledge when planning to kill then it is for a promotion or mudsex....kinda required in fact.

[Wastrel]

Like...you keep picking apart my examples, but you're just missing the point. I've been being a scrub. I've constructed this false set of rules for myself on how to act within armageddon. Those rules are simply wrong. As long as I act within the confines of the game and my character, whats the problem?

Of course you can have long-lived PCs by not pissing people off. Like... derr. To say that veteran players dont do the things I described is just delusional.  I cant tell you how many times I've seen veteran PCs simply be evasive to the point of ridiculousness. This goes for all types of roleplay. You all act like I'm comitting some awful crime by saying I want to play better and be more ruthless in what I choose to do with my PCs. I'm the only person being honest here. I'm simply describing what good players (good @ staying alive/killing people) already do. Its basically all OOC decisions.

[Marauder Moe]

You all act like I'm comitting some awful crime by saying I want to play better and be more ruthless in what I choose to do with my PCs.

That's not what you said, though.  You said:

I will be as metagamey as possible. I will bend the code as far as I possibly can.

That's what we take issue with.

I'm the only person being honest here. I'm simply describing what good players (good @ staying alive/killing people) already do. Its basically all OOC decisions.

No, it's not, unless you have a weird definition that includes things like "don't piss off templars" as an OOC decision.

[X-D]

Eh, I never said you were evil/bad whatever.

And of course you will see an entire range of action/play...But your post said "How do veterans keep their PCs alive for so long if not for"  So, since there is no disclaimer or anything to point otherwise, you are making the claim that ALL vets use such tactics, And I and others will jump on that because it is patently wrong. You also use the term veteran player and Veteran PC interchangeably, this is also wrong, There have been and likely are many total newb players who have or have had long lived first PCs, and though this does make the PC sort of a vet I suppose, the player is not.

Another point that myself and others do not agree on is your belief that many IC things are OOC decisions. Deciding to not go after that PC/NPC/MOB because it will kill your PC is not OOC, it is IC....hell the docs even state, People in Zalanthas don't want to die.

Making blanket statements about how people play will get your posts jumped on...believe that.

[Wastrel]

I will be as metagamey as possible. I will bend the code as far as I possibly can.
That's what we take issue with.

As long as I'm not breaking any rules and still roleplaying there shouldn't be an issue. I'm a good roleplayer. I'm not a "keep your head down" kind of guy. Thats silly and boring to me. As Nyr has already tactfully revealed in a subtle-yet obvious manner, none of my PCs usually last longer than a month. This is the reason.  However, those PCs are usually pretty quality I think and contribute alot to the game.

So here are my thoughts on PK. I will show you zero mercy if my PC wants to kill you. I will do it in the most efficient way possible if I can. If you kill my PC, one of three things happened a) you outsmarted me as a player b) i let you kill me c) I goofed. Simple as that. Call it metagaming, call it code bending, whatever. Semantics.

People do what I'm talking about and you can tell me all day you dont, I know its bullshit. I've talked with players who've played the game for 10+ years, killed hundreds of PCs, and generally know the game better than anyone. I know how they think. I know how they operate. They're fucken lizards. There are of course exceptions to everything, but I'm not talking about those. Ok? Ok.

The main draw to this game is the fact that death is final.

Without perma-death, we are just another RP MUD. In fact, I would go so far as to say without perma-death, a ton of the roleplay we have would be less rich, and a lot of it would even be impossible.

That being said, the end game for Armageddon is PK for the vast majority of players. Why? Because that is the final and most absolute form of power and control. So long as your PC is alive, you are winning Armageddon. There is only one way to lose, and that is to not be alive anymore.

The only thing that matters in this game is the ability to take life. If you can take life better than the next guy, he is at your mercy, and you are winning, and he is losing. You don't necessarily have to kill him, he just has to know and accept the fact that you can and he can't stop you.

If you get powerful enough that you have enough people beneath you in the "I can kill you." pool, you can in theory win Armageddon.