How do you feel about PC killing?

[Bogre]

The thing is, getting burned by trying to kill a PC, emoting, trying to give a good scene, and then having the other PC code-bug out on you (and waying their friends, getting your PC ganked) is something most people don't like. St

[Lizzie]

The only times I've ever seen PCs attack for no reason, was when they were newbies showing up out of the Hall of Kings, and autoattacking whatever was in the spawn room. Three times, that was me. And because my characters were fairly well-skilled, and wearing armor, and in that spawn room, which was a crim-code room, and because the other PC initiated the attack all three times, then all three times, each of those PCs were dead before I swung my fist a second time. My character + soldiers = dead newbie.

Every other time my PC has been killed by another PC, there was a reason for it. There wasn't always RP that i was able to observe, as a player. One time my PC was whooshed somewhere magically and fell to near-death, and the final moments were whoever was there, having some kind of conversation with each other that I couldn't hear because I was unconscious. I was able to see a single emote: Someone lifts something up. I'm assuming it was their weapon, because I saw the mantis head immediately after that.

To Wastrel and whoever else has a problem with PKs without a visible scene - it's very possible that there IS a scene going on. It's possible that your attacker had been stalking you for a couple of leagues, and had been hemoting his heart out, and you simply lacked the perception skill to see it.

It is possible that you were attacked for no good reason, with no emotes, by a PC and not an NPC. So rather than venting your anger here on the GDB, where you clearly will not get much sympathy from those of us who consider being victim of pointless PK a rite of passage and not vent-worthy - you need to submit a player complaint to the staff. PK "for no reason" is not looked kindly upon by staff or by players. That is why it is RARE. And if it's a brand-new noob just out of chargen, it's even rarer, that he'd be able to hurt your character anyway.

[James de Monet]

if you aren't supposed to kill players why do they have money on their bodies when they die

LMAO

[PriestlySiren]

if you aren't supposed to kill players why do they have money on their bodies when they die

Bam. Signature.

[Morrolan]

The thing is, getting burned by trying to kill a PC, emoting, trying to give a good scene, and then having the other PC code-bug out on you (and waying their friends, getting your PC ganked) is something most people don't like. St

Yup. It's the price we pay for permadeath.

But they'd best be putting in character reports and PK reports. This isn't Zalanthan Gladiator, and we assume that characters have reason to fight. Best enumerate them to yourself, and to staff.

[brytta.leofa]

I've been random-encountered by players like twice: once in the city, once in the country.

I don't condone it, but it does keep things exciting.

[Kryos]

So many wiffs in this thread, from what I've read, and in my opinion.  I've got some psychology in my background and job, so here's my take.

Human are social creatures, not because we chose to be, but because attempting to survive on your own means you don't survive.  (there are no lone wolves, lions kicked out of the pack die quickly, and hell, just go watch an Animal Planet survivor show) And so, most humans (except those who are deviant and NOT normal) would not casually murder another human.  Its how we evolved as a species to overcome individually superior species.  Now, there's exceptions to this.

Because we're social, we identify with those in our 'group' and are wary of those outside of the 'group.'  Zalanthas is even worse than earth, in that resources are even more precious.  And so, typically speaking, these ideas should factor into human behavior.  Resources are harder to acquire, thus, killing someone capable of getting resources is flat out wastrel.  And being wastrel in a scarce life is a way to end that life prematurely.  However, those who threaten your ability to control and gather resources *are* worthy of elimination.

So, even a raider is foolish to simply kill.  Take and let them go, and you've given yourself an opportunity to gather more later.  Elves don't assassinate everything that moves to steal because a living and flourishing target (just enough, mind you) can do the work for them to steal again. 

And so on, and so forth.  Killing is a waste, unless it meets certain criteria, so be it NPC or PC, thinking along these lines I believe gives you a more proper immersion into the world.  Note I say human a lot.  That is just the human take, though I've alluded to ideas on elves too.

Other species would/will behave differently.  But an elf is after easy gains, dwarfs don't go murdering unless it furthers their focus, and half-giants emulate.  Part of what makes Muls so exotic and dangerous IS the fact that they can snap and end you, and much more likely to do so than most other species aside from voracious predators. 

Kill?  Only if its necessary to further personal survival.  Otherwise, its easier to take and let live, much like the article on ecological awareness talks about on the web site.

And finally, this is just my opinion.

[tarkas]

Some very odd answers here, maybe my characters are just too much in the moment, but if it makes sense to kill somebody, npc, or pc, I do.

If it doesn't make sense.  I don't.

If I'm with so and so the head of my enemy clan, and joe newbie walks in, he dies.
if joe npc walks in, he dies.  I emote if I think I should.

I'm a bit confused by much of what I'm hearing.  At what point and time do you think, I have a few spare weeks and want so-and-so dead, I'll email an imm with my target.

I cant even imagine that situation happening.

Most of my kills are definitely on the "damn that escalated quickly" end of things though.
I say kills and pkills, because I treat pc's the same way I treat npcs.

As a noob I made a character who, "Was going to sacrifice pcs because they were special"  I was informed, I think by nessalin that that was dumb.  I then showed up in one of the worst backgrounds ever threads "A the pride in my eyes that moment."  He explained that people of zalanthas are people.  Not npcs and pcs.  Do people really separate them?

Hell vnpcs are people.  Just easier for you as a person, (and occasionally as a character) to order around and control.

[musashi]

So many wiffs in this thread, from what I've read, and in my opinion.  I've got some psychology in my background and job, so here's my take.

Human are social creatures, not because we chose to be, but because attempting to survive on your own means you don't survive.  (there are no lone wolves, lions kicked out of the pack die quickly, and hell, just go watch an Animal Planet survivor show) And so, most humans (except those who are deviant and NOT normal) would not casually murder another human.  Its how we evolved as a species to overcome individually superior species.  Now, there's exceptions to this.

Because we're social, we identify with those in our 'group' and are wary of those outside of the 'group.'  Zalanthas is even worse than earth, in that resources are even more precious.  And so, typically speaking, these ideas should factor into human behavior.  Resources are harder to acquire, thus, killing someone capable of getting resources is flat out wastrel.  And being wastrel in a scarce life is a way to end that life prematurely.  However, those who threaten your ability to control and gather resources *are* worthy of elimination.

So, even a raider is foolish to simply kill.  Take and let them go, and you've given yourself an opportunity to gather more later.  Elves don't assassinate everything that moves to steal because a living and flourishing target (just enough, mind you) can do the work for them to steal again. 

And so on, and so forth.  Killing is a waste, unless it meets certain criteria, so be it NPC or PC, thinking along these lines I believe gives you a more proper immersion into the world.  Note I say human a lot.  That is just the human take, though I've alluded to ideas on elves too.

Other species would/will behave differently.  But an elf is after easy gains, dwarfs don't go murdering unless it furthers their focus, and half-giants emulate.  Part of what makes Muls so exotic and dangerous IS the fact that they can snap and end you, and much more likely to do so than most other species aside from voracious predators. 

Kill?  Only if its necessary to further personal survival.  Otherwise, its easier to take and let live, much like the article on ecological awareness talks about on the web site.

And finally, this is just my opinion.

I don't have more than a college level of psychology in my background, but I seem to recall there being an "effect" coined in psychology wherein human beings, while trying to act in their own self interest short term ... will collapse a natural resource in the long term thus acting against their own self interest in the greater scope of time.

It's one of the leading arguments for the need to regulate emissions and environmental standards at a governmental level ... because the dudes farming on the ground will burn their whole world down around them in short sighted idiocy without someone looking at the long game.

I forget the name for the effect, but it seems like your analysis doesn't factor that in, when asserting that raiders ought not kill folks, for example. Sure they should not ... but ... it's perfectly normal for humans to peruse short term benefit in such a way that it causes long term self harm.

[Necro]

People keep saying they have ordered hits, it would be interesting to hear from a player who has actually played a hitman (yes I've read that assassin's primer) and who has actually killed a bunch of PCs, if they were brave enough to come forward. Such a player's perspective on an OOC level would be worth hearing. Because in the world of gaming the kind of multiplayer permadeath that is featured in arm is really a novelty and basically unheard of. It really is a unique exerience.

-raises hand- I am a killer. Not just in this game, but in many games. Games give us the opportunity to explore relationships and interactions with others that are strictly unacceptable IRL, morally speaking. Lots of people have commented on this on both sides of the equation. I am of the opinion that having those who are willing to kill others add to the roleplay environment. In fact, the freedom of Armageddon to kill people (or torture, or anything else you get consent to) is the major draw of this game for me. It is what keeps me coming back after all these years. Both killing and being killed are valuable experiences. That is not to say that I have never felt guilty after killing someone (almost always, except when they -deserved it- or stepped far out of line of what is reasonable for a player/character to do) and it's not to say that I never felt awful when I lost that character I had worked so hard on. However, it's almost always a learning experience for both parties... if they choose to accept it at as such. Do I beat myself up over killing someone? Perhaps, briefly, and then I am likely to change my MO if I believe that I made a mis-step. But if it was their mis-step... well, I don't feel bad long. In summary, killing people adds a -lot- to this game. Permdeath exists for a reason. If flowers bloomed forever, they wouldn't be half as beautiful. Do not go into that dark alleyway... or that distant wasteland, without accepting in your mind that death is a possibility, and you will not be half as disappointed.

[Harmless]

People keep saying they have ordered hits, it would be interesting to hear from a player who has actually played a hitman (yes I've read that assassin's primer) and who has actually killed a bunch of PCs, if they were brave enough to come forward. Such a player's perspective on an OOC level would be worth hearing. Because in the world of gaming the kind of multiplayer permadeath that is featured in arm is really a novelty and basically unheard of. It really is a unique exerience.

-raises hand- I am a killer. Not just in this game, but in many games. Games give us the opportunity to explore relationships and interactions with others that are strictly unacceptable IRL, morally speaking. Lots of people have commented on this on both sides of the equation. I am of the opinion that having those who are willing to kill others add to the roleplay environment. In fact, the freedom of Armageddon to kill people (or torture, or anything else you get consent to) is the major draw of this game for me. It is what keeps me coming back after all these years. Both killing and being killed are valuable experiences. That is not to say that I have never felt guilty after killing someone (almost always, except when they -deserved it- or stepped far out of line of what is reasonable for a player/character to do) and it's not to say that I never felt awful when I lost that character I had worked so hard on. However, it's almost always a learning experience for both parties... if they choose to accept it at as such. Do I beat myself up over killing someone? Perhaps, briefly, and then I am likely to change my MO if I believe that I made a mis-step. But if it was their mis-step... well, I don't feel bad long. In summary, killing people adds a -lot- to this game. Permdeath exists for a reason. If flowers bloomed forever, they wouldn't be half as beautiful. Do not go into that dark alleyway... or that distant wasteland, without accepting in your mind that death is a possibility, and you will not be half as disappointed.

Excellent post. Huzzah for permadeath!

[Nile]

Haven't played for a long time now (just check the forums every couple of months) but I think being killed with some decent RP leading up to it is great. Even a backstab won't piss me off too much if it's done in good taste with at least an emote right before I die or preferably a psy to give some sort of closure.

But last time I played I experienced an incredibly lame death and yeah, it's the brutal nature of the game, but it was enough to drive me away because it isn't worth putting in the time and effort to get plots etc going when you are killed for no decent reason in a matter of seconds with no RP whatsoever. I don't think that is particularly fun for anyone, except the players who seem to get a kick out of it 

But yeah, I'm all for being killed if it's fun.

As it is, someone PM me if Red Fang re-open. I probably won't be back IG until then.

[spacewars]

Red fang will never be open again the tribe has been wiped clean off the face of zalanthas

[Kryos]

So many wiffs in this thread, from what I've read, and in my opinion.  I've got some psychology in my background and job, so here's my take.

Human are social creatures, not because we chose to be, but because attempting to survive on your own means you don't survive.  (there are no lone wolves, lions kicked out of the pack die quickly, and hell, just go watch an Animal Planet survivor show) And so, most humans (except those who are deviant and NOT normal) would not casually murder another human.  Its how we evolved as a species to overcome individually superior species.  Now, there's exceptions to this.

Because we're social, we identify with those in our 'group' and are wary of those outside of the 'group.'  Zalanthas is even worse than earth, in that resources are even more precious.  And so, typically speaking, these ideas should factor into human behavior.  Resources are harder to acquire, thus, killing someone capable of getting resources is flat out wastrel.  And being wastrel in a scarce life is a way to end that life prematurely.  However, those who threaten your ability to control and gather resources *are* worthy of elimination.

So, even a raider is foolish to simply kill.  Take and let them go, and you've given yourself an opportunity to gather more later.  Elves don't assassinate everything that moves to steal because a living and flourishing target (just enough, mind you) can do the work for them to steal again.  

And so on, and so forth.  Killing is a waste, unless it meets certain criteria, so be it NPC or PC, thinking along these lines I believe gives you a more proper immersion into the world.  Note I say human a lot.  That is just the human take, though I've alluded to ideas on elves too.

Other species would/will behave differently.  But an elf is after easy gains, dwarfs don't go murdering unless it furthers their focus, and half-giants emulate.  Part of what makes Muls so exotic and dangerous IS the fact that they can snap and end you, and much more likely to do so than most other species aside from voracious predators.  

Kill?  Only if its necessary to further personal survival.  Otherwise, its easier to take and let live, much like the article on ecological awareness talks about on the web site.

And finally, this is just my opinion.

I don't have more than a college level of psychology in my background, but I seem to recall there being an "effect" coined in psychology wherein human beings, while trying to act in their own self interest short term ... will collapse a natural resource in the long term thus acting against their own self interest in the greater scope of time.

It's one of the leading arguments for the need to regulate emissions and environmental standards at a governmental level ... because the dudes farming on the ground will burn their whole world down around them in short sighted idiocy without someone looking at the long game.

I forget the name for the effect, but it seems like your analysis doesn't factor that in, when asserting that raiders ought not kill folks, for example. Sure they should not ... but ... it's perfectly normal for humans to peruse short term benefit in such a way that it causes long term self harm.

Hurp durp, I didn't come back to this thread to look at it.  Sorry about that.

But the reason I didn't go down that avenue is due to the documentation about the sensitivity Zalanthans have to keeping sustainable resources sustained, and that, specifically, they don't go ape shit for immediate personal gain if its going to bend them over down the road (hunter docs/thief bible).  In fact, the people who do that [find out ic but I'm guessing you'd know what I'd mean Musashi] are hated.  HATED.  I expanded on that thought process, admittedly put a touch of my own mojo in the mix and . . .

On a side note, to elaborate a touch.  PC murder in a perma death gaming experience is an essential part of the mix.  I do believe, however, that if you want to create better stories, you do it by trying to be as authentic as possible.  And in this case, I believe that means that murder should not be the first option every time.  

As mentioned, though, if your ability to secure or control resources is threatened by some one or something, I doubt a Zalanthan would hesitate at all if they knew they could remove that obstacle.

[musashi]

Certain tribes and certain races are big on environmental sustainability (mantis, for example). But I've never gathered from the docs that its a universal practice.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Yeah I've always been under the impression (possibly wrongly) that Allanak was in the business of plowing the commons.  That they don't really care and take what they want.  If they run out they will take from somewhere else. 

It also seems like alot of the tribals are very interested in sustainable practices in regards to hunting and nature in general. 

Tuluk kinda seems in the middle.  A cross between sustainable and gotta feed the people.

Most everyone is against defiling or sorcery in general.  Alot of the reason is probably because Tek and Muk don't want another sorcerer to gain prowess.  Its easier to make sure they die early.

[Nile]

Red fang will never be open again the tribe has been wiped clean off the face of zalanthas

When did that happen? I was the last Red Fang PC alive when they closed a few years ago. I assure you back then the whole tribe wasn't wiped out, just a part of it.

Could somebody clarify whether the whole tribe has since been wiped out?

[BleakOne]

From this history page:

-
c.1607 (Year 67 Age 21)
Over the period of a year, the Red Fangs clash with the Sun Runners. Vicious war begins between the two elven tribes. After bloody battles ranging from the steppes of the Tablelands to the sands of the Red Desert, the Red Fangs have been destroyed.
-

Destroyed being the operative word.

[spicemustflow]

Red Fang truthers unite!

[Nyr]

Could somebody clarify whether the whole tribe has since been wiped out?

It was done over the course of a few RPTs and was led by the actions of PCs on both sides.  This occurred approximately two years ago. The clan wasn't closed, it was wiped out.  You were there, actually.  I suppose that depending on when you died in the larger local RPT in question, you might have thought things were going to turn around, but...nope.  Dead Fangs.

Anyway, I guess since I helped that occur, you can say that I feel perfectly fine with PC killing--and all-out war.

[Nile]

Could somebody clarify whether the whole tribe has since been wiped out?

It was done over the course of a few RPTs and was led by the actions of PCs on both sides.  This occurred approximately two years ago. The clan wasn't closed, it was wiped out.  You were there, actually.  I suppose that depending on when you died in the larger local RPT in question, you might have thought things were going to turn around, but...nope.  Dead Fangs.

Anyway, I guess since I helped that occur, you can say that I feel perfectly fine with PC killing--and all-out war.

God damn. I survived the larger slaughter and lead the remains of the tribe (NPC's) on a suicide run a few days later but I thought we were only a sect of the tribe and some lived on back in the canyons or something.

I'm devastated they are all dead. In my opinion Red Fang was hands down the best tribe in all of arm and I was awaiting their reopening to make my return to the game

[BadSkeelz]

Red Fangs: extinct because of a census error.

[racurtne]

Could somebody clarify whether the whole tribe has since been wiped out?

It was done over the course of a few RPTs and was led by the actions of PCs on both sides.  This occurred approximately two years ago. The clan wasn't closed, it was wiped out.  You were there, actually.  I suppose that depending on when you died in the larger local RPT in question, you might have thought things were going to turn around, but...nope.  Dead Fangs.

Anyway, I guess since I helped that occur, you can say that I feel perfectly fine with PC killing--and all-out war.

God damn. I survived the larger slaughter and lead the remains of the tribe (NPC's) on a suicide run a few days later but I thought we were only a sect of the tribe and some lived on back in the canyons or something.

I'm devastated they are all dead. In my opinion Red Fang was hands down the best tribe in all of arm and I was awaiting their reopening to make my return to the game

How does it feel to kill the thing you loved the most? 

In all seriousness, that must hurt. Condolences. 

[Nile]

Haha yeah it sucks big time. I was there when they didn't even have a coded camp and we were just a few scabby elves hiding in the canyons getting beaten up by the Soh and everyone else to the time when we were some of the most feared raiders in the known world with a bad ass coded camp and a far more fleshed out culture.

Oh well. I might eventually go back to the 'rinth. Really the only other place I get the grit I'm looking for.

EDIT: While on the topic of RF, I just want to give a huge shout out to the imms and players that were around at that time. You guys are awesome.

[musashi]

Armageddon has murder in many vintages, like a well stocked wine cellar.

It can happen to the tune of smiles and poisoned wine. Daggers in the dark. Brutal slaughter. There's something for the monster in all of us!