Mental instability and Zalanthan characters

[DustMight]

I don't think I have it within me to portray a Sociopath/Schizophrenic realistically, but kudos to those who can.

It's pretty simple.  Do what everyone tells you to do and have no personality.

Having worked with a number of likely sociopaths and diagnosed schizophrenics, I can assure you this is not correct.

[Delirium]

Playing a sociopath in Armageddon is easy.

Playing someone with a conscience and a set of morals (that they must discard or struggle to abide by) is where things really get interesting.

[DustMight]

Playing a sociopath in Armageddon is easy.

Playing someone with a conscience and a set of morals (that they must discard or struggle to abide by) is where things really get interesting.

Ayep.

[Rhyden]

Playing a sociopath in Armageddon is easy.

Playing someone with a conscience and a set of morals (that they must discard or struggle to abide by) is where things really get interesting.

Yes, but playing a sociopath with a set of morals? You'd have to be quite dexterous.

[Delirium]

iseewhatyoudidthere.jpg

[gfair]

The rate at which people go out and get killed...most of your friends are gone within a year, each to some horrible demise. Even in Zalanthas, it would affect people. To the smallest extent simply making them lonely/depressed.

We have to bear in mind that this kind of turnover is not remotely close to the death rate, the population would not be sustainable with such a high mortality rate.  That's the player character mortality rate.

We also have to bear in mind that Arm is a harsh world and the races are a cut above as far as toughness, I'm guessing that includes mental stability. It's a harsh world and you get burned badly for making friendly with too many people.

[Fujikoma]

Ok, so, I've been debating whether it's a good idea or not to drop this text bomb, and I was just waiting for someone to post again about mental stability and how it relates to toughness. Keep in mind, this is simply the understanding I have developed so far, and may be far from the truth.

The world of Armageddon is known as Zalanthas. It is a harsh planet where only the fittest survive, and competition over extremely scarce resources causes constant strife, struggle, and bloodshed.

I believe this is where most of the problem comes in, as what one may consider fit enough to survive may not be the same mental picture that comes to mind when someone else thinks of it. To someone else, this may mean no weaknesses, or character flaws, though while one may indeed have weaknesses, if one is clever and capable enough one can play around them or use them as a strength.

This is my current interpretation of the races, as I have come to understand them from the docs and in game experience, which, admittedly, is very little, so I apologize in advance for any bits of ignorance that wander their way into here.

Let us consider the dwarven focus. That right there is a dangerous obsession. The dwarf will not stop, ever, until he either dies or his focus is complete, and then it's time for a new one. Sometimes these focuses inherently run contrary to the survival of the individual. This does not allow for fear, they are not capable of thinking on their toes well enough to pull off any meaningful deception, and so they will have to think it over carefully beforehand. Does this mean dwarves should not be allowed to exist, because of this weakness, that may get them killed? No, because dwarves are physically and mentally strong, they are survivors, despite their inherent weakness.

Let us consider the elven obsession with the challenge of taking that which would not otherwise be given (mentioned this way because I think words like "theft" and "stealing" imply too much that you must be a pickpocket or OMG an exception!), is this a weakness? In many ways it is. People don't like it when you pull the wool over their eyes, or when they go to buy a scrap of tough meat so they won't starve only to pull out a wad of pocket lint. It can seriously get the elf killed. But the elf is clever, and quick, he plays this off as a strength, he needn't necessarily engage in foolish behavior with terrible consequences if he can get around it, and when all else fails he can run like the wind.

And the breed... A dangerous mixture of human and elf, infamous for their sometimes explosive instability. How did they even make it to that age? Must've been quite a badass to survive, in one form or another. They inherit some impressive traits from their elven ancestry, they are light on their feet, they are quick witted, maybe not so much as the elf, but what they lose there they make up with their sturdiness and strength, which they inherit from their human ancestry. Great, glaring weaknesses, one of the biggest of which, seems to me, to be the lack of any supportive social structure, aside from other breeds, which even that is suspect.

The mul, of which little is known besides rumor to most. A slave race with a pointless existence and uncontrollable fits of rage, powerful gladiators, terrifying bandits and tirelessly working slaves. The muls exist because someone put a large amount of effort into putting them there, and, for better or worse, there they are... Even more troubling than the previously mentioned races, they still continue to exist because they perform useful functions, being status symbols to the rich and powerful, or being escaped slaves, surviving on the run through their sheer brute strength, physical and mental endurance.

The half-giants, big, dumb, affable... These looming towers of meat survive because they are easily convinced to make themselves useful, and are generally likable because they're easily impressed and enjoy being useful. If the world was really as mean as some say it is, you would find more bits of these turning up for sale at the butcher's.

Humans. Ugh. Full of themselves, arrogant in regards to anything not just like them, always running off at the mouth without a seconds thought as to the consequences. Of all the races, both blessed and cursed with the sheer range of their respective abilities and dispositions. The commoner human is just as much a tool as any other race of the upper classes, but goes about patting themselves on the back, being an ignorant pain in the butt, just because they're a step up on the ladder from the pit filled with corpses. Yet despite these weaknesses, humans thrive, and among them are many fine examples of what makes them special, but it's hard for the non-human to see through the crowd of prick-waving jerks.

Despite all of these weakness, all of these types are survivors, tough enough to survive in the known, and even thrive with enough effort. Even with a few more weaknesses tacked on, it's safe to assume that they are STILL fit, strong, and capable... Even without "weaknesses" plenty of characters die while others live, even with "weaknesses". Part of it's luck. Part of it's picking what you do and do not do.

[/soapbox]

EDIT: I suppose I should add, I'd like any corrections necessary to my current interpretation of the docs and character behavior, my goal is to understand better.

[gfair]

Playing a sociopath in Armageddon is easy.

Too true. An accent and a wardrobe and you could be just about anybody.

[burble]

I don't see in the docs where half-elves are unstable.

I don't understand why anyone would want to compare modern social norms to a harsh fantasy setting.

Maybe pre-Christian Rome would be a better comparison.
Short life expectancy around 30 (doing the googly thang), watching people kill each other for fun in the coliseum, slaves and torture don't raise an eyebrow.

What does it mean to be a psychopath in such a society? Does it matter? If you torture your slaves for fun do you not get invited to all the good Roman Toga parties?
I doubt many people cared at all.

You want to play mentally unstable on Arm? You're the outlier.
Someone else want to slice your pc's throat for water, sid, because you annoy them? They're completely normal.

[Kaineus]

I don't understand why anyone would want to compare modern social norms to a harsh fantasy setting.

I agree with this, however, social tendencies will map differently upon different groups in game.

Going along with the notion that we should think of Arma without thinking of modern psychological diagnoses, I'd like to talk about the social phenomenon of "trust" and how that was handled in ancient times and how that applies to Arma.  One of the first human inventions in communications was the ancient greek symbolon. Symbolons communicated the identity of communicating parties and let people decide if they trust messengers sent by certain parties. For instance, long before writing, someone might make a deal with a local ruler that they will be allowed to farm on the ruler's land in exchange for paying tribute. When they make this agreement, they break a pot shard so that only those two shards fit together a certain way. Later, when the ruler sends a messenger to collect the tribute, that messenger will have the ruler's half of the broken shard, thus assuring the tenant that this isn't a bandit trying to swindle money out of them.

Similarly, in Armageddon, certain groups have certain rituals for deciding if they can trust people. On the GDB we've been dwelling on sex and how that plays into trust between individual characters. More concretely, many clans in game have tests, trials, and rites of passage for members to be inducted into a clan or achieve rank. Elves, who are untrustworthy swindlers themselves, can be particularly stringent with these tests. Half-elves, who constantly have to worry about being hurt by people who hate them, often develop ways of acting that may come across as "antisocial," "borderline," etc--however, it might be better understood as ways a half-elf might adapt to a world that does not trust them, a world were they can trust very few people in turn. Half-giants, meanwhile, are extremely trusting, because their physical prowess and mental obliviousness have left them with very little to fear in their lives.

It's fine to be mentally ill, but I hate it when it's played up in a tacky way reminiscent of LiveJournal or Tumblr hoes whining about their parents or classmates. This reflects obnoxious personality traits more than an actual mental illness, IMO. The only character I've played that I would describe as mentally ill was an epileptic, because that condition has been diagnosed long before Freud and all those other quacks farted out their personality disorder diagnoses, etc.

[Fujikoma]

You're certainly right about one thing, burble, it doesn't say that half-elves have to be exactly like that. Thanks for the correction. Wandering around as a breed for a while led me to believe there are things expected of you that might not be in the docs. The independent/need for acceptance thing can be played around many ways, as I have seen others play it very well without being like that...

I don't really have the time right now to read all about the stuff and catch up on Roman history, but aside from a few aspects, such as the Colosseum, I don't really see it as a good comparison. I will have to look into it more because I've heard some of their rulers were pretty twisted, but mayhaps the worst, I've heard, but haven't verified, were after the time of Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_mental_disorders

The information linked to is not very detailed and so is probably missing a lot... Or so I assume.

They can want to slice throats all they want, but that doesn't make them capable of doing it, seeing to it that it's done, or feeling like paying out a bunch of coin to see it taken care of... But it's true, make enough of a nuisance of yourself and you will be dealt with... My characters usually get killed by big, nasty npcs.

It's not modern social norms, mental illness has always been around. Perceptions have fluctuated over time, but it's kind of always been there.

Here's a fun little bug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis

[Inks]

Well, thanks for that, I am not terrified of parasites enough as it is.
 

[Norcal]

It's interesting that all this talk of mental disorders revolve around somehow validating the urge to kill other PCs.  
What about the majority of disabilities that would render the PC non-violent, vulnerable or socially unpopular?

If this is all really about "how can it be ok for me to kill other peeps with my pc" then there are far better ways then half-heartedly throwing the DSM at it.

How come we're not talking about the obsessive that is working three jobs and spamcrafting so he can give all his coins to the needy?  Or playing the psychotic dude who believes that he is Tek himself?  Or the fellow who has inappropriate relations with beetles?

Because more often PCs take on the 'I'm a sociopath' or 'IM CRAZY NOW' mental instability rather than actually roleplaying some garden-variety OCD or depression.

I agree. If you are going to play a crazy character, then be consistent and make them crazy all the time. Madness should express itself in more ways than -just- murder.

[PriestlySiren]

This should also take into account the fact that certain personalities magnify others or bring out the worst in them. If in your group of peers, the ones you want to be accepted by, killing is the thing, generally a weak-willed person will partake, under the direction or implications of a strong individual. There have been many cases where if A and B hadn't happened with persons C and D, this person would not have done a certain thing.

I would go into more detail or examples, but I don't feel like watching ID so earlier in the morning.

[Fujikoma]

Looking for consistency in disorder? Things tend to fluctuate over time. A person can seem perfectly well adjusted one minute, and, without the proper coping strategies, totally out of it the next, because it sounded like you said something you didn't, or maybe you didn't say anything at all even, or maybe a string of strange coincidences has sparked a wild paranoid delusion. Maybe an extreme, unexplainable mood swing, maybe a gradual, though still extreme mood swing. Maybe you need to be somewhere, but you keep deciding you must have the wrong pants/shirt/cloak on and keep going back to your apartment to change, then realize you left your coins in your other cloak, and have to go back.

Or maybe you're a dwarf, with a focus to own one of everything  . The possibilities are endless.

Also, yeah, bad traits can be magnified or detracted from given external circumstances, I would think.

A sociopath or a psychopath is a whole nother thing. I'd say something, but I think I should read up on it more first.

[little chicken woman]

After some failed attempts at sociopathy I managed to make one pretty well--- what I do is I take any old character concept, preferably one with a background with one or more personality-revealing elements like a dead sister or something, and I make them soulless. This girl, she's a bard in Allanak. She is terrified of being alone. She has anxiety issues while performing due to feeling like she is being scrutinized. No one notices because she is usually a nervous wreck anyway. This other girl here is a Tuluki grebber. Peppy, upbeat. She likes cheese and tall men. She once watched an elf kill her father for a waterskin in the old quarter. They can both be sociopaths. People will lose their importance and their impact, or most of it, and the person themselves will have no personal demons, feel no fear of failure from a set of moral beliefs that does not exist. They will still want things and have quirks. People are simply dangerous objects with their own set of desires and fears. They are either annoying, boring, part of the background, fun, useful, or necessary. This is, how I do it nowadays anyway.

I bet the long-liveds who wanted to continue being long-lived that I played with were scared to absolute death for a while when they found out what my sociopath was like X) Ah. That was almost depressing. You can make one that isn't dangerous. You just have to leave out certain interests.

[Fujikoma]

I can't wait to beat your dad to death with a water sack while he's thirsty.

[little chicken woman]

That's one of the reasons it is so damn fun to play with you Fujikoma.

Have anyone ever played a non-dwarven pc who was obsessed to the bone with something, way, way past the point of it being healthy? Its fun as hell.

[Fujikoma]

Now that you mention it I'm going to have to fucking try it.. Feck you and your tempting me towards evil, I didn't need a lot of help. 

[FantasyWriter]

That's one of the reasons it is so damn fun to play with you Fujikoma.

Have anyone ever played a non-dwarven pc who was obsessed to the bone with something, way, way past the point of it being healthy? Its fun as hell.

I had a breed who carried his mother's skull around on his belt all the time.
He sorta got funny looks when he would start talking to her in the middle of a crowded tavern.

[manipura]

I had a breed who carried his mother's skull around on his belt all the time.
He sorta got funny looks when he would start talking to her in the middle of a crowded tavern.

I played a...oh, wait...I can't talk about that just yet.

[Clavis]

I miss my completely crazy sharp.... she was soooo much fun to play.. and so taxing all at the same time... Maybe i'll play another whacko sometime just to honor her....

[Klara]

It's interesting that all this talk of mental disorders revolve around somehow validating the urge to kill other PCs.  
What about the majority of disabilities that would render the PC non-violent, vulnerable or socially unpopular?

If this is all really about "how can it be ok for me to kill other peeps with my pc" then there are far better ways then half-heartedly throwing the DSM at it.

How come we're not talking about the obsessive that is working three jobs and spamcrafting so he can give all his coins to the needy?  Or playing the psychotic dude who believes that he is Tek himself?  Or the fellow who has inappropriate relations with beetles?...

In this world, we don't need to be crazy to be killers.  We are killers because sometimes, on occasion, we just need to be.

I was just thinking about how honest this is to real-life mental illness. I've got a bit of (painfully first-hand) experience in the field, and it's easy to see why those who suffer from mental illness are, on the whole, more likely to be the victims of a violent act than the perpetrators of one: even Schizophrenics, who are kind of lambasted around as the nutty, Hinkley types that hear voices from God that tell them to stab folks. Generally speaking, character flaws and human elements appear the same in the mentally ill once you get past their psychiatric dispositions.

While there are psycho killers out there in le real world, I'm not sure they'd be perfectly fitted (though not necessarily ill-fitted, either) for Zalanthas. Though I'm quite the newb here I think having a (slight cliched) urge to mindlessly kill, even once in a blue moon, in Zalanthas would be utterly handicapping. Not to mention the fear of the discovery of guilt that would have to accompany murders (even for small things, and the fear that the mental illness itself, whatever the kind, will be discovered by others is dreadfully terrifying) would probably drive one to a whole new set of neuroses to accompany the psychoses the character would have to have.

Perhaps a model would be how mental illness has been treated of old on Planet Earth? Some were geniuses: the savants have always been labelled mad. Others were given religious-spiritual significance. But most were persecuted so heavily and so brutally that we forget how recent a thing modern, humane treatment of the mentally ill really is, and how non-existent it is even in a few 1st-world countries. If the mentally ill are driven by the droves to homelessness and societal Pariah status in a place like the USA, I would assume Zalanthas would be a crueler mistress by 10 fold. Like, "I heard you chatting with demons and the people of Tuluk are pretty sure you're a filthy, Magicking witch" material. No?

[Norcal]

It's interesting that all this talk of mental disorders revolve around somehow validating the urge to kill other PCs.  
What about the majority of disabilities that would render the PC non-violent, vulnerable or socially unpopular?

If this is all really about "how can it be ok for me to kill other peeps with my pc" then there are far better ways then half-heartedly throwing the DSM at it.

How come we're not talking about the obsessive that is working three jobs and spamcrafting so he can give all his coins to the needy?  Or playing the psychotic dude who believes that he is Tek himself?  Or the fellow who has inappropriate relations with beetles?...

In this world, we don't need to be crazy to be killers.  We are killers because sometimes, on occasion, we just need to be.

I was just thinking about how honest this is to real-life mental illness. I've got a bit of (painfully first-hand) experience in the field, and it's easy to see why those who suffer from mental illness are, on the whole, more likely to be the victims of a violent act than the perpetrators of one: even Schizophrenics, who are kind of lambasted around as the nutty, Hinkley types that hear voices from God that tell them to stab folks. Generally speaking, character flaws and human elements appear the same in the mentally ill once you get past their psychiatric dispositions.

While there are psycho killers out there in le real world, I'm not sure they'd be perfectly fitted (though not necessarily ill-fitted, either) for Zalanthas. Though I'm quite the newb here I think having a (slight cliched) urge to mindlessly kill, even once in a blue moon, in Zalanthas would be utterly handicapping. Not to mention the fear of the discovery of guilt that would have to accompany murders (even for small things, and the fear that the mental illness itself, whatever the kind, will be discovered by others is dreadfully terrifying) would probably drive one to a whole new set of neuroses to accompany the psychoses the character would have to have.

Perhaps a model would be how mental illness has been treated of old on Planet Earth? Some were geniuses: the savants have always been labelled mad. Others were given religious-spiritual significance. But most were persecuted so heavily and so brutally that we forget how recent a thing modern, humane treatment of the mentally ill really is, and how non-existent it is even in a few 1st-world countries. If the mentally ill are driven by the droves to homelessness and societal Pariah status in a place like the USA, I would assume Zalanthas would be a crueler mistress by 10 fold. Like, "I heard you chatting with demons and the people of Tuluk are pretty sure you're a filthy, Magicking witch" material. No?

In the past and to this day in many parts of the world, mental illness is considered a spiritual problem. Demons spirits etc. Outside of one and possibly two exceptions, there is no real religion on Zalanthas, and no concept of demons or spirits that I know of . Could be wrong though.  I think insanity would be looked at as an illness, or perhaps as the result of magick ability.  So you are right, in the second case they would be suspected and at least shunned by those who did not know their background.

I played a crazy PC for a pretty long run. Her madness did not lead directly to her killing folks. It mostly manifested in other odd ways. It gave her a focus though, which pushed her to protect the Pah and that...wellllll. She was pretty mean.

I think madness should give a player a focus, that can be played consistently. If someone wants to start off playing a truly crazed killer, that has no motive for killing, then they should expect a quick death if they play it consistently.

[Lutagar]

I've still got my fingers crossed for a Caligula-themed templar to declare war on the silt-sea.