Mental instability and Zalanthan characters

[Fujikoma]

I admit, there were only so many odd notions about mental instability that I could read before I said something, although, it was in the wrong topic. So, I guess here would be a good place to discuss it.

My opinion is this:

Please keep in mind instability does not equal stupid, though ignorance and stupidity abound. I have read the notion many times, that a mentally unstable person would not live very long in Zalanthas, but this is ignoring the fact that many of the serious ones don't really show up until later in life. Stupidity is more of a constant, and ignorance, if the person is willing, can be cured, at least for specific subjects, but never for everything, so may as well be a constant, leaving life a long journey of learning experiences leading up to an untimely demise.

To think an unstable character could not survive and possibly thrive may be lumping our modern viewpoints on a primitive civilization. Over god knows how many centuries perceptions of mental illness have changed and evolved. Sometimes these individuals are perceived as gifted, other times as cursed or possessed (neither of which are particularly helpful). Even modern medical understanding is severely limited, but we're beginning to get a much better view of why it happens. To assume a person with the genetic makeup for the illness will develop it is a mistake, as it's only part nature, the rest can be triggered by the environment.

There's a lot more that could be said, but I'm going to stop there as I really need sleep and don't have the time to catch up on a bunch of reading I'm going to have to do to effectively justify my viewpoint... Plus, I'd rather hear others out first.

[Gunnerblaster]

I'm not entirely sure what's being "discussed" here but here are my 2 cents in regards to "mentally unstable" individuals surviving in Zalanthian society:

They either fake it (in this case, fake being 'normal') until they make it to a position of power or authority where their mental instability (so long as it was kept in check or a heavily guarded secret) wouldn't affect them, or they are found out and usually dealt with.

It's kind've hard to broach the subject, personally, though. I figure, those who act like psychotic murderers who run around knifing people usually get dealt with by the militia. That's the kind of roleplayed insanity that I think is silly and doesn't really have a place in Zalanthas, so seeing players whining about how their psychotic knife-murderers are ruthlessly hunted down gets no sympathy from me.

What I like to see is players taking a character's instability and making it work for them.

Amos enjoys hurting others. Amos knows that, in Zalanthas, hurting others without purpose usually gets you killed. Instead of running around the alleyways, knifing the random child/prostitute, Amos decides he wants to be able to enjoy his killings without having to hide.

So he joins the militia. Serves dutifully when under scrutiny. Obtains a position of authority.

Then murders, in the name of the Highlord.

[BleakOne]

Plenty of mentally unstable people could survive in Zalanthas. I wrote out more but really, it would obviously make life more difficult but Zalanthans are tough and unstable does not equal stupid.

[musashi]

A functioning sociopath would positively thrive in Zalanthas. It's kind of how I play um ... most of my characters  

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Breeds.

The unstable and insane who can separate the chaotic screaming which is their train of thought from the physical necessity of placing food into their mouth with their hands.

My only good sociopath, my neat little collection of porcelain asylum cases.

More breeds.

Other peoples' amazing villains and unstable persons.

All examples of pcs who not only have screws loose that could conceivably endanger their ability to survive, but also have life rafts, usually leaking, a set of rules and perceptions and lucky circumstances which allow those people to have logical excuses for breathing.

As for stupidity, I tend to gift that to my pcs when I want to do dangerous and interesting things.

[DustMight]

Bah with the bogymen.  The best villains are the ones you can understand.

[Patuk]

If you can dig clay or mine 'sid, nobody is going to care how much you ramble or that you think Lirathu is made out of cheese.

[MeTekillot]

People can be mentally unbalanced and not be hallucination-addled paranoid schizophrenics or cold-blooded thrill killers. Figured I'd mention that.

[Clavis]

There's alot more then just the usually thrill seeking sociopath, to be had when wishing to be mentally unstable.

hallucationatory = responding to unseen, unheard, and unfelt stimilai ie. you and only you can feel the ants crawling on you, hear bells, voices that can say anything at all even harmless. you've a little man on your shoulder that jacks you in the jaw constantly, to name only a few.

dellusional - your mindset is warped twisted, you think things that are not true, but you and you only know them to be true.

bipolar - breeds mostly, your borderline just floating along cool as can be then you hit a low where your suddenly angry, crying, or what ever. Or you hit an upper and you feeeeel sooooo good. ladedah your walking on krathshine oooooh yeah.

you have an explosive personality one second your sweet and innocent next your trying to rip someone's head off. always fun.

split personality - your not just one person your two or more. When you go from Amos to Fancypants everything abut you save for your physical appearance hair color, eye color etc. doesn't change.  everything else can very well.

None of these make any mentally unstable person stupid/ignorant or what have you. though each break from the norm begins to wear on your mind, a mind that is different then rl mind do to being able to way, and maybe other things. Still it eventually impacts certain areas, in example. you have a hard time speaking, yet your still a math genuis. You can't focus yet when your fighting your a beast.

Sadly some of the other affects of mental instability can't be coded, such as the sudden surges of raw power you possess because your mind doesn't tell you you can't throw a half gaint when your a halfling.

just my two sids.

[DustMight]

Bipolar - breeds mostly, your borderline just floating along cool as can be then you hit a low where your suddenly angry, crying, or what ever. Or you hit an upper and you feeeeel sooooo good. ladedah your walking on krathshine oooooh yeah.

You have an explosive personality one second your sweet and innocent next your trying to rip someone's head off. always fun.

This isn't accurate.  I recommend the helpfile which contains the following:

"The heart of the half-elven personality is the tension between wanting acceptance, and wanting independence. The two are really flip sides of the same coin. Because half-elves can never be fully integrated into either human or elven society, a half-elf's history is littered with memories of rejections and slights, both real and perceived. A half-elf's insistence on being self-reliant may be a way of rejecting others before they can reject him or her. While seeking acceptance half-elves will often pretend to have no interest in it."

This is very different than Bipolar, though bipolar behaviors could be used to model a half-elf.  Better, though, to explore the inherent identity crisis, the need for love and acceptance unable to be or struggling to be balanced with the need for individuation.

[Barzalene]

Perhaps attachment disorder would be another model to consider with regards to breeds.

[MeTekillot]

Yes, and borderline and bipolar are two different disorders.

[zarkov]

From what I've seen, not only might someone with a mental disorder thrive, I think it would be more common to have one than not. The rate at which people go out and get killed...most of your friends are gone within a year, each to some horrible demise. Even in Zalanthas, it would affect people. To the smallest extent simply making them lonely/depressed.

Just my two 'sids'

Oh, and I might give my next character vivid hallucinations, screaming and pointing in random directions on crowded night in the Gaj would be interesting!  

[Clavis]

Yes, and borderline and bipolar are two different disorders.

sorry didn't mean borderline as in the disorder but as a base line between a high and low. The middle ground between one pole and the other in a bipolar.

Bipolar - breeds mostly, your borderline just floating along cool as can be then you hit a low where your suddenly angry, crying, or what ever. Or you hit an upper and you feeeeel sooooo good. ladedah your walking on krathshine oooooh yeah.

You have an explosive personality one second your sweet and innocent next your trying to rip someone's head off. always fun.

This isn't accurate.  I recommend the helpfile which contains the following:

"The heart of the half-elven personality is the tension between wanting acceptance, and wanting independence. The two are really flip sides of the same coin. Because half-elves can never be fully integrated into either human or elven society, a half-elf's history is littered with memories of rejections and slights, both real and perceived. A half-elf's insistence on being self-reliant may be a way of rejecting others before they can reject him or her. While seeking acceptance half-elves will often pretend to have no interest in it."

This is very different than Bipolar, though bipolar behaviors could be used to model a half-elf.  Better, though, to explore the inherent identity crisis, the need for love and acceptance unable to be or struggling to be balanced with the need for individuation.

I've always thought of them as more bipolar why I put that in there. though perhaps another of the social disorders would be better fitting. just really to lazy to go through all the disorders, even lumping them together into generic commonly used and misconstrued terms would take up alooot of space.

[Marauder Moe]

Meh.

Zalanthas still has societies.  In those societies, murder has consequences, even if you're a soldier/templar/noble.  

Also, you can't just stroll into murder-mart and off someone.  There will be periods where convenient victims do not present themselves.  It's not terribly consistent of your psychopath character to just shrug it off and wait.

It is a fallacy to think that just because Zalanthas is harsh and gritty that you can simply ignore the consequences/downsides of whatever mental illness you wish to portray.

[Clavis]

Meh.

Zalanthas still has societies.  In those societies, murder has consequences, even if you're a soldier/templar/noble. 

Also, you can't just stroll into murder-mart and off someone.  There will be periods where convenient victims do not present themselves.  It's not terribly consistent of your psychopath character to just shrug it off and wait.

It is a fallacy to think that just because Zalanthas is harsh and gritty that you can simply ignore the consequences/downsides of whatever mental illness you wish to portray.

yeah you as the player would need to remember that, the pc on the other hand probably depending upon the extent of their instability, and other things, wouldn't care. During an 'episode' they most assuredly would have no problem going to the local murder mart to hack someone up. When not having an 'episode' then they'd be more inclined to wait, and watch, for that time.

Again allot of this would deal with extent of their instability, and the nature of their mental illness/madness/what have you.

Perhaps attachment disorder would be another model to consider with regards to breeds.

hadn't thought of that one, though it's another good one for breeds.

[KankWhisperer]

Dwarves.

[Fujikoma]

Not saying there wouldn't be consequences for certain "issues" that would pop up. Of course there would. Even people with nothing wrong with them are going to have issues they can't really avoid popping up, which might very well result in their death, if they don't handle the situation the right way. My issue is with people saying people with certain "issues" wouldn't live past the age of twenty.

While kill-crazy lunatics may be a popular subject in news and entertainment, most people with issues are just struggling to get by, and would rather not stab or shoot up a dozen people at the supermarket. That is not to say it doesn't happen, or that you won't get stabbed if you mess around and say the wrong thing to the wrong person. I've heard there's a bit of debate over whether sociopaths and psychopaths (as well as whether the two should be considered separate or not) can be considered mentally ill, no serial killers have been found not guilty by reason of insanity (at least in America), last I checked. I've read there's a significant structural difference in the brain there, but I'd need to read more about it before saying much.

I've read it does happen, certain seriously twisted individuals pass off as completely normal and attain social status and respect, that it works as excellent cover or even an excuse for fulfilling their murderous desires. A real pillar of the community, church going, well respected, does a lot of work with the boyscouts, mutilates and kills people out in the woods for thrills and taunts police with clues... One of my friends shook the hand of the BTK killer when we were in the boyscouts, and was later shocked to see him on the news.

I would have more to say, but I'm still gathering information and thinking about it, checking to see where my previous perceptions may have been incorrect.

[DustMight]

It's interesting that all this talk of mental disorders revolve around somehow validating the urge to kill other PCs.  
What about the majority of disabilities that would render the PC non-violent, vulnerable or socially unpopular?

If this is all really about "how can it be ok for me to kill other peeps with my pc" then there are far better ways then half-heartedly throwing the DSM at it.

How come we're not talking about the obsessive that is working three jobs and spamcrafting so he can give all his coins to the needy?  Or playing the psychotic dude who believes that he is Tek himself?  Or the fellow who has inappropriate relations with beetles?

In this world, we don't need to be crazy to be killers.  We are killers because sometimes, on occasion, we just need to be.

Edit to add:  Feel free to ignore.  I am feeling pugilistic. I should probably go and hit my heavy bag, but I have to go to work instead.

[Fujikoma]

I think in part because of common misconceptions, perpetuated by the media, the internet and word of mouth, that may find its way into the game as just that, an excuse to kill PCs, when really, none is needed, player characters will give you plenty of reasons to want them dead if you just talk to them long enough, without having to say oh, I did it because Tek told me to!

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what I'm reading, I dunno.

[Lutagar]

Unstable characters can lead to great, plot advancing RP outside of killing everyone. More so when these things occur as unfourtante character development -after- the background.  Maybe they're afraid of letting people get close so they act abrasive. Maybe they never get anywhere in life, because deep down, they hate themselves and keep getting in their own way. I had alot fun with one character who acted all high and mighty because of an inferiority complex.


I don't think I have it within me to portray a Sociopath/Schizophrenic realistically, but kudos to those who can.

[Bogre]

It's interesting that all this talk of mental disorders revolve around somehow validating the urge to kill other PCs.  
What about the majority of disabilities that would render the PC non-violent, vulnerable or socially unpopular?

If this is all really about "how can it be ok for me to kill other peeps with my pc" then there are far better ways then half-heartedly throwing the DSM at it.

How come we're not talking about the obsessive that is working three jobs and spamcrafting so he can give all his coins to the needy?  Or playing the psychotic dude who believes that he is Tek himself?  Or the fellow who has inappropriate relations with beetles?

Because more often PCs take on the 'I'm a sociopath' or 'IM CRAZY NOW' mental instability rather than actually roleplaying some garden-variety OCD or depression.

[Fujikoma]

Maybe because it's so commonly expressed on the GDB that depressed people get stabbed for mysterious reasons... I dunno, maybe witches can brew superior quality potions out of depressed people, it's never been explained very well to me, I don't think.

Also, the people that overdo it or play it wrong will quite possibly find themselves creating a new character very shortly, I wager.

What bothers me is usually it seems to be expressed in an always/never manner, as if anything anywhere is always true/false, all or nothing, enemy or friend... I don't agree with the "No, this absolutely cannot happen." or even the "This would be the exception." viewpoints. As it is, you'd have enough time to grow to an adult, mate, get work in etc. before these things began changing the character's life significantly, passing on the traits... In a world where so many die so shortly, without written records on the lives of commoners, stamping it out would be a difficult, if not impossible task.

It's an impediment to continued survival of the individual, sure, but it's not something that would be ruthlessly tracked and squashed, considering it's such a primitive society with no idea what really is happening the individual. If anything, I'd start with the assumption that it would be more widespread... I'd imagine PTSD would run rampant in certain circles, and that could happen to ANYONE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder

tl;dr Blah blah blah oh hey, PTSD.

EDIT: On further reading about PTSD, a topic I've not looked into much, but should have, having known a number of people suffering from it (and being told by relatives they think that might be part of my problem), it's incorrect, perhaps, to say that it could happen to anyone, but I think it would be incorrect to assume it couldn't happen, as well.

[Dalmeth]

I don't think I have it within me to portray a Sociopath/Schizophrenic realistically, but kudos to those who can.

It's pretty simple.  Do what everyone tells you to do and have no personality.

[Flincher]

Breeds. At first I thought breeds were annoying emo characters, and sadly thats how they are generally portrayed.

However..breeds are so perfect for a variety of mental issues right out of character creation. Anything from being bi-polar to stalking someone obsessively for smiling at you.

I'm really not a fan of most killing spree types..I'd have zero issue with a serial killer that captured characters gave them a long torture session then killed them ritualistically. But psychopaths that murder just for the hell of it are boring and degrading to the mud.

Sociopaths that will do anything just to get ahead are meh, it really depends on how its played. There are a bit too many sociopaths, IE. basically any noble or Templar I've met .

[DustMight]

I don't think I have it within me to portray a Sociopath/Schizophrenic realistically, but kudos to those who can.

It's pretty simple.  Do what everyone tells you to do and have no personality.

Having worked with a number of likely sociopaths and diagnosed schizophrenics, I can assure you this is not correct.

[Delirium]

Playing a sociopath in Armageddon is easy.

Playing someone with a conscience and a set of morals (that they must discard or struggle to abide by) is where things really get interesting.

[DustMight]

Playing a sociopath in Armageddon is easy.

Playing someone with a conscience and a set of morals (that they must discard or struggle to abide by) is where things really get interesting.

Ayep.

[Rhyden]

Playing a sociopath in Armageddon is easy.

Playing someone with a conscience and a set of morals (that they must discard or struggle to abide by) is where things really get interesting.

Yes, but playing a sociopath with a set of morals? You'd have to be quite dexterous.

[Delirium]

iseewhatyoudidthere.jpg

[gfair]

The rate at which people go out and get killed...most of your friends are gone within a year, each to some horrible demise. Even in Zalanthas, it would affect people. To the smallest extent simply making them lonely/depressed.

We have to bear in mind that this kind of turnover is not remotely close to the death rate, the population would not be sustainable with such a high mortality rate.  That's the player character mortality rate.

We also have to bear in mind that Arm is a harsh world and the races are a cut above as far as toughness, I'm guessing that includes mental stability. It's a harsh world and you get burned badly for making friendly with too many people.

[Fujikoma]

Ok, so, I've been debating whether it's a good idea or not to drop this text bomb, and I was just waiting for someone to post again about mental stability and how it relates to toughness. Keep in mind, this is simply the understanding I have developed so far, and may be far from the truth.

The world of Armageddon is known as Zalanthas. It is a harsh planet where only the fittest survive, and competition over extremely scarce resources causes constant strife, struggle, and bloodshed.

I believe this is where most of the problem comes in, as what one may consider fit enough to survive may not be the same mental picture that comes to mind when someone else thinks of it. To someone else, this may mean no weaknesses, or character flaws, though while one may indeed have weaknesses, if one is clever and capable enough one can play around them or use them as a strength.

This is my current interpretation of the races, as I have come to understand them from the docs and in game experience, which, admittedly, is very little, so I apologize in advance for any bits of ignorance that wander their way into here.

Let us consider the dwarven focus. That right there is a dangerous obsession. The dwarf will not stop, ever, until he either dies or his focus is complete, and then it's time for a new one. Sometimes these focuses inherently run contrary to the survival of the individual. This does not allow for fear, they are not capable of thinking on their toes well enough to pull off any meaningful deception, and so they will have to think it over carefully beforehand. Does this mean dwarves should not be allowed to exist, because of this weakness, that may get them killed? No, because dwarves are physically and mentally strong, they are survivors, despite their inherent weakness.

Let us consider the elven obsession with the challenge of taking that which would not otherwise be given (mentioned this way because I think words like "theft" and "stealing" imply too much that you must be a pickpocket or OMG an exception!), is this a weakness? In many ways it is. People don't like it when you pull the wool over their eyes, or when they go to buy a scrap of tough meat so they won't starve only to pull out a wad of pocket lint. It can seriously get the elf killed. But the elf is clever, and quick, he plays this off as a strength, he needn't necessarily engage in foolish behavior with terrible consequences if he can get around it, and when all else fails he can run like the wind.

And the breed... A dangerous mixture of human and elf, infamous for their sometimes explosive instability. How did they even make it to that age? Must've been quite a badass to survive, in one form or another. They inherit some impressive traits from their elven ancestry, they are light on their feet, they are quick witted, maybe not so much as the elf, but what they lose there they make up with their sturdiness and strength, which they inherit from their human ancestry. Great, glaring weaknesses, one of the biggest of which, seems to me, to be the lack of any supportive social structure, aside from other breeds, which even that is suspect.

The mul, of which little is known besides rumor to most. A slave race with a pointless existence and uncontrollable fits of rage, powerful gladiators, terrifying bandits and tirelessly working slaves. The muls exist because someone put a large amount of effort into putting them there, and, for better or worse, there they are... Even more troubling than the previously mentioned races, they still continue to exist because they perform useful functions, being status symbols to the rich and powerful, or being escaped slaves, surviving on the run through their sheer brute strength, physical and mental endurance.

The half-giants, big, dumb, affable... These looming towers of meat survive because they are easily convinced to make themselves useful, and are generally likable because they're easily impressed and enjoy being useful. If the world was really as mean as some say it is, you would find more bits of these turning up for sale at the butcher's.

Humans. Ugh. Full of themselves, arrogant in regards to anything not just like them, always running off at the mouth without a seconds thought as to the consequences. Of all the races, both blessed and cursed with the sheer range of their respective abilities and dispositions. The commoner human is just as much a tool as any other race of the upper classes, but goes about patting themselves on the back, being an ignorant pain in the butt, just because they're a step up on the ladder from the pit filled with corpses. Yet despite these weaknesses, humans thrive, and among them are many fine examples of what makes them special, but it's hard for the non-human to see through the crowd of prick-waving jerks.

Despite all of these weakness, all of these types are survivors, tough enough to survive in the known, and even thrive with enough effort. Even with a few more weaknesses tacked on, it's safe to assume that they are STILL fit, strong, and capable... Even without "weaknesses" plenty of characters die while others live, even with "weaknesses". Part of it's luck. Part of it's picking what you do and do not do.

[/soapbox]

EDIT: I suppose I should add, I'd like any corrections necessary to my current interpretation of the docs and character behavior, my goal is to understand better.

[gfair]

Playing a sociopath in Armageddon is easy.

Too true. An accent and a wardrobe and you could be just about anybody.

[burble]

I don't see in the docs where half-elves are unstable.

I don't understand why anyone would want to compare modern social norms to a harsh fantasy setting.

Maybe pre-Christian Rome would be a better comparison.
Short life expectancy around 30 (doing the googly thang), watching people kill each other for fun in the coliseum, slaves and torture don't raise an eyebrow.

What does it mean to be a psychopath in such a society? Does it matter? If you torture your slaves for fun do you not get invited to all the good Roman Toga parties?
I doubt many people cared at all.

You want to play mentally unstable on Arm? You're the outlier.
Someone else want to slice your pc's throat for water, sid, because you annoy them? They're completely normal.

[Kaineus]

I don't understand why anyone would want to compare modern social norms to a harsh fantasy setting.

I agree with this, however, social tendencies will map differently upon different groups in game.

Going along with the notion that we should think of Arma without thinking of modern psychological diagnoses, I'd like to talk about the social phenomenon of "trust" and how that was handled in ancient times and how that applies to Arma.  One of the first human inventions in communications was the ancient greek symbolon. Symbolons communicated the identity of communicating parties and let people decide if they trust messengers sent by certain parties. For instance, long before writing, someone might make a deal with a local ruler that they will be allowed to farm on the ruler's land in exchange for paying tribute. When they make this agreement, they break a pot shard so that only those two shards fit together a certain way. Later, when the ruler sends a messenger to collect the tribute, that messenger will have the ruler's half of the broken shard, thus assuring the tenant that this isn't a bandit trying to swindle money out of them.

Similarly, in Armageddon, certain groups have certain rituals for deciding if they can trust people. On the GDB we've been dwelling on sex and how that plays into trust between individual characters. More concretely, many clans in game have tests, trials, and rites of passage for members to be inducted into a clan or achieve rank. Elves, who are untrustworthy swindlers themselves, can be particularly stringent with these tests. Half-elves, who constantly have to worry about being hurt by people who hate them, often develop ways of acting that may come across as "antisocial," "borderline," etc--however, it might be better understood as ways a half-elf might adapt to a world that does not trust them, a world were they can trust very few people in turn. Half-giants, meanwhile, are extremely trusting, because their physical prowess and mental obliviousness have left them with very little to fear in their lives.

It's fine to be mentally ill, but I hate it when it's played up in a tacky way reminiscent of LiveJournal or Tumblr hoes whining about their parents or classmates. This reflects obnoxious personality traits more than an actual mental illness, IMO. The only character I've played that I would describe as mentally ill was an epileptic, because that condition has been diagnosed long before Freud and all those other quacks farted out their personality disorder diagnoses, etc.

[Fujikoma]

You're certainly right about one thing, burble, it doesn't say that half-elves have to be exactly like that. Thanks for the correction. Wandering around as a breed for a while led me to believe there are things expected of you that might not be in the docs. The independent/need for acceptance thing can be played around many ways, as I have seen others play it very well without being like that...

I don't really have the time right now to read all about the stuff and catch up on Roman history, but aside from a few aspects, such as the Colosseum, I don't really see it as a good comparison. I will have to look into it more because I've heard some of their rulers were pretty twisted, but mayhaps the worst, I've heard, but haven't verified, were after the time of Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_mental_disorders

The information linked to is not very detailed and so is probably missing a lot... Or so I assume.

They can want to slice throats all they want, but that doesn't make them capable of doing it, seeing to it that it's done, or feeling like paying out a bunch of coin to see it taken care of... But it's true, make enough of a nuisance of yourself and you will be dealt with... My characters usually get killed by big, nasty npcs.

It's not modern social norms, mental illness has always been around. Perceptions have fluctuated over time, but it's kind of always been there.

Here's a fun little bug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis

[Inks]

Well, thanks for that, I am not terrified of parasites enough as it is.
 

[Norcal]

It's interesting that all this talk of mental disorders revolve around somehow validating the urge to kill other PCs.  
What about the majority of disabilities that would render the PC non-violent, vulnerable or socially unpopular?

If this is all really about "how can it be ok for me to kill other peeps with my pc" then there are far better ways then half-heartedly throwing the DSM at it.

How come we're not talking about the obsessive that is working three jobs and spamcrafting so he can give all his coins to the needy?  Or playing the psychotic dude who believes that he is Tek himself?  Or the fellow who has inappropriate relations with beetles?

Because more often PCs take on the 'I'm a sociopath' or 'IM CRAZY NOW' mental instability rather than actually roleplaying some garden-variety OCD or depression.

I agree. If you are going to play a crazy character, then be consistent and make them crazy all the time. Madness should express itself in more ways than -just- murder.

[PriestlySiren]

This should also take into account the fact that certain personalities magnify others or bring out the worst in them. If in your group of peers, the ones you want to be accepted by, killing is the thing, generally a weak-willed person will partake, under the direction or implications of a strong individual. There have been many cases where if A and B hadn't happened with persons C and D, this person would not have done a certain thing.

I would go into more detail or examples, but I don't feel like watching ID so earlier in the morning.

[Fujikoma]

Looking for consistency in disorder? Things tend to fluctuate over time. A person can seem perfectly well adjusted one minute, and, without the proper coping strategies, totally out of it the next, because it sounded like you said something you didn't, or maybe you didn't say anything at all even, or maybe a string of strange coincidences has sparked a wild paranoid delusion. Maybe an extreme, unexplainable mood swing, maybe a gradual, though still extreme mood swing. Maybe you need to be somewhere, but you keep deciding you must have the wrong pants/shirt/cloak on and keep going back to your apartment to change, then realize you left your coins in your other cloak, and have to go back.

Or maybe you're a dwarf, with a focus to own one of everything  . The possibilities are endless.

Also, yeah, bad traits can be magnified or detracted from given external circumstances, I would think.

A sociopath or a psychopath is a whole nother thing. I'd say something, but I think I should read up on it more first.

[little chicken woman]

After some failed attempts at sociopathy I managed to make one pretty well--- what I do is I take any old character concept, preferably one with a background with one or more personality-revealing elements like a dead sister or something, and I make them soulless. This girl, she's a bard in Allanak. She is terrified of being alone. She has anxiety issues while performing due to feeling like she is being scrutinized. No one notices because she is usually a nervous wreck anyway. This other girl here is a Tuluki grebber. Peppy, upbeat. She likes cheese and tall men. She once watched an elf kill her father for a waterskin in the old quarter. They can both be sociopaths. People will lose their importance and their impact, or most of it, and the person themselves will have no personal demons, feel no fear of failure from a set of moral beliefs that does not exist. They will still want things and have quirks. People are simply dangerous objects with their own set of desires and fears. They are either annoying, boring, part of the background, fun, useful, or necessary. This is, how I do it nowadays anyway.

I bet the long-liveds who wanted to continue being long-lived that I played with were scared to absolute death for a while when they found out what my sociopath was like X) Ah. That was almost depressing. You can make one that isn't dangerous. You just have to leave out certain interests.

[Fujikoma]

I can't wait to beat your dad to death with a water sack while he's thirsty.

[little chicken woman]

That's one of the reasons it is so damn fun to play with you Fujikoma.

Have anyone ever played a non-dwarven pc who was obsessed to the bone with something, way, way past the point of it being healthy? Its fun as hell.

[Fujikoma]

Now that you mention it I'm going to have to fucking try it.. Feck you and your tempting me towards evil, I didn't need a lot of help. 

[FantasyWriter]

That's one of the reasons it is so damn fun to play with you Fujikoma.

Have anyone ever played a non-dwarven pc who was obsessed to the bone with something, way, way past the point of it being healthy? Its fun as hell.

I had a breed who carried his mother's skull around on his belt all the time.
He sorta got funny looks when he would start talking to her in the middle of a crowded tavern.

[manipura]

I had a breed who carried his mother's skull around on his belt all the time.
He sorta got funny looks when he would start talking to her in the middle of a crowded tavern.

I played a...oh, wait...I can't talk about that just yet.

[Clavis]

I miss my completely crazy sharp.... she was soooo much fun to play.. and so taxing all at the same time... Maybe i'll play another whacko sometime just to honor her....

[Klara]

It's interesting that all this talk of mental disorders revolve around somehow validating the urge to kill other PCs.  
What about the majority of disabilities that would render the PC non-violent, vulnerable or socially unpopular?

If this is all really about "how can it be ok for me to kill other peeps with my pc" then there are far better ways then half-heartedly throwing the DSM at it.

How come we're not talking about the obsessive that is working three jobs and spamcrafting so he can give all his coins to the needy?  Or playing the psychotic dude who believes that he is Tek himself?  Or the fellow who has inappropriate relations with beetles?...

In this world, we don't need to be crazy to be killers.  We are killers because sometimes, on occasion, we just need to be.

I was just thinking about how honest this is to real-life mental illness. I've got a bit of (painfully first-hand) experience in the field, and it's easy to see why those who suffer from mental illness are, on the whole, more likely to be the victims of a violent act than the perpetrators of one: even Schizophrenics, who are kind of lambasted around as the nutty, Hinkley types that hear voices from God that tell them to stab folks. Generally speaking, character flaws and human elements appear the same in the mentally ill once you get past their psychiatric dispositions.

While there are psycho killers out there in le real world, I'm not sure they'd be perfectly fitted (though not necessarily ill-fitted, either) for Zalanthas. Though I'm quite the newb here I think having a (slight cliched) urge to mindlessly kill, even once in a blue moon, in Zalanthas would be utterly handicapping. Not to mention the fear of the discovery of guilt that would have to accompany murders (even for small things, and the fear that the mental illness itself, whatever the kind, will be discovered by others is dreadfully terrifying) would probably drive one to a whole new set of neuroses to accompany the psychoses the character would have to have.

Perhaps a model would be how mental illness has been treated of old on Planet Earth? Some were geniuses: the savants have always been labelled mad. Others were given religious-spiritual significance. But most were persecuted so heavily and so brutally that we forget how recent a thing modern, humane treatment of the mentally ill really is, and how non-existent it is even in a few 1st-world countries. If the mentally ill are driven by the droves to homelessness and societal Pariah status in a place like the USA, I would assume Zalanthas would be a crueler mistress by 10 fold. Like, "I heard you chatting with demons and the people of Tuluk are pretty sure you're a filthy, Magicking witch" material. No?

[Norcal]

It's interesting that all this talk of mental disorders revolve around somehow validating the urge to kill other PCs.  
What about the majority of disabilities that would render the PC non-violent, vulnerable or socially unpopular?

If this is all really about "how can it be ok for me to kill other peeps with my pc" then there are far better ways then half-heartedly throwing the DSM at it.

How come we're not talking about the obsessive that is working three jobs and spamcrafting so he can give all his coins to the needy?  Or playing the psychotic dude who believes that he is Tek himself?  Or the fellow who has inappropriate relations with beetles?...

In this world, we don't need to be crazy to be killers.  We are killers because sometimes, on occasion, we just need to be.

I was just thinking about how honest this is to real-life mental illness. I've got a bit of (painfully first-hand) experience in the field, and it's easy to see why those who suffer from mental illness are, on the whole, more likely to be the victims of a violent act than the perpetrators of one: even Schizophrenics, who are kind of lambasted around as the nutty, Hinkley types that hear voices from God that tell them to stab folks. Generally speaking, character flaws and human elements appear the same in the mentally ill once you get past their psychiatric dispositions.

While there are psycho killers out there in le real world, I'm not sure they'd be perfectly fitted (though not necessarily ill-fitted, either) for Zalanthas. Though I'm quite the newb here I think having a (slight cliched) urge to mindlessly kill, even once in a blue moon, in Zalanthas would be utterly handicapping. Not to mention the fear of the discovery of guilt that would have to accompany murders (even for small things, and the fear that the mental illness itself, whatever the kind, will be discovered by others is dreadfully terrifying) would probably drive one to a whole new set of neuroses to accompany the psychoses the character would have to have.

Perhaps a model would be how mental illness has been treated of old on Planet Earth? Some were geniuses: the savants have always been labelled mad. Others were given religious-spiritual significance. But most were persecuted so heavily and so brutally that we forget how recent a thing modern, humane treatment of the mentally ill really is, and how non-existent it is even in a few 1st-world countries. If the mentally ill are driven by the droves to homelessness and societal Pariah status in a place like the USA, I would assume Zalanthas would be a crueler mistress by 10 fold. Like, "I heard you chatting with demons and the people of Tuluk are pretty sure you're a filthy, Magicking witch" material. No?

In the past and to this day in many parts of the world, mental illness is considered a spiritual problem. Demons spirits etc. Outside of one and possibly two exceptions, there is no real religion on Zalanthas, and no concept of demons or spirits that I know of . Could be wrong though.  I think insanity would be looked at as an illness, or perhaps as the result of magick ability.  So you are right, in the second case they would be suspected and at least shunned by those who did not know their background.

I played a crazy PC for a pretty long run. Her madness did not lead directly to her killing folks. It mostly manifested in other odd ways. It gave her a focus though, which pushed her to protect the Pah and that...wellllll. She was pretty mean.

I think madness should give a player a focus, that can be played consistently. If someone wants to start off playing a truly crazed killer, that has no motive for killing, then they should expect a quick death if they play it consistently.

[Lutagar]

I've still got my fingers crossed for a Caligula-themed templar to declare war on the silt-sea.

[IssacF]

I'm not entirely sure what's being "discussed" here but here are my 2 cents in regards to "mentally unstable" individuals surviving in Zalanthian society:

They either fake it (in this case, fake being 'normal') until they make it to a position of power or authority where their mental instability (so long as it was kept in check or a heavily guarded secret) wouldn't affect them, or they are found out and usually dealt with.

It's kind've hard to broach the subject, personally, though. I figure, those who act like psychotic murderers who run around knifing people usually get dealt with by the militia. That's the kind of roleplayed insanity that I think is silly and doesn't really have a place in Zalanthas, so seeing players whining about how their psychotic knife-murderers are ruthlessly hunted down gets no sympathy from me.

What I like to see is players taking a character's instability and making it work for them.

Amos enjoys hurting others. Amos knows that, in Zalanthas, hurting others without purpose usually gets you killed. Instead of running around the alleyways, knifing the random child/prostitute, Amos decides he wants to be able to enjoy his killings without having to hide.

So he joins the militia. Serves dutifully when under scrutiny. Obtains a position of authority.

Then murders, in the name of the Highlord.

That sounds like an interesting concept. I might not roleplay that as it isn't my kind of concept but I met some characters that fit that description.

[Harmless]

I play mentally unstable characters frequently. Good dark fantasy stories always have some kind of mental instability in their important characters. If I don't come up with a concept that will make a PC mentally unstable when rolled up, what will eventually happen is other people's RP will instill in my PC some degree of insanity before long.

Nobody stays innocent in this game world, with all of the corruption going on.

I know for sure that my mental instability gets staff approval, too, as I report it to them and they respond usually with a "thanks for the update. Good work. You're making plots." Etc.

The key is toning it down and making it consistent. And, usually, it's easier to do if you build up to it; start with a hint of insanity, see how you can feed it and grow it in time into something truly monstrous.

[IssacF]

I play mentally unstable characters frequently. Good dark fantasy stories always have some kind of mental instability in their important characters. If I don't come up with a concept that will make a PC mentally unstable when rolled up, what will eventually happen is other people's RP will instill in my PC some degree of insanity before long.

Nobody stays innocent in this game world, with all of the corruption going on.

I know for sure that my mental instability gets staff approval, too, as I report it to them and they respond usually with a "thanks for the update. Good work. You're making plots." Etc.

The key is toning it down and making it consistent. And, usually, it's easier to do if you build up to it; start with a hint of insanity, see how you can feed it and grow it in time into something truly monstrous.

I like that. Might think of it for my next concept.