Mental instability and Zalanthan characters

[Fujikoma]

I admit, there were only so many odd notions about mental instability that I could read before I said something, although, it was in the wrong topic. So, I guess here would be a good place to discuss it.

My opinion is this:

Please keep in mind instability does not equal stupid, though ignorance and stupidity abound. I have read the notion many times, that a mentally unstable person would not live very long in Zalanthas, but this is ignoring the fact that many of the serious ones don't really show up until later in life. Stupidity is more of a constant, and ignorance, if the person is willing, can be cured, at least for specific subjects, but never for everything, so may as well be a constant, leaving life a long journey of learning experiences leading up to an untimely demise.

To think an unstable character could not survive and possibly thrive may be lumping our modern viewpoints on a primitive civilization. Over god knows how many centuries perceptions of mental illness have changed and evolved. Sometimes these individuals are perceived as gifted, other times as cursed or possessed (neither of which are particularly helpful). Even modern medical understanding is severely limited, but we're beginning to get a much better view of why it happens. To assume a person with the genetic makeup for the illness will develop it is a mistake, as it's only part nature, the rest can be triggered by the environment.

There's a lot more that could be said, but I'm going to stop there as I really need sleep and don't have the time to catch up on a bunch of reading I'm going to have to do to effectively justify my viewpoint... Plus, I'd rather hear others out first.

[Gunnerblaster]

I'm not entirely sure what's being "discussed" here but here are my 2 cents in regards to "mentally unstable" individuals surviving in Zalanthian society:

They either fake it (in this case, fake being 'normal') until they make it to a position of power or authority where their mental instability (so long as it was kept in check or a heavily guarded secret) wouldn't affect them, or they are found out and usually dealt with.

It's kind've hard to broach the subject, personally, though. I figure, those who act like psychotic murderers who run around knifing people usually get dealt with by the militia. That's the kind of roleplayed insanity that I think is silly and doesn't really have a place in Zalanthas, so seeing players whining about how their psychotic knife-murderers are ruthlessly hunted down gets no sympathy from me.

What I like to see is players taking a character's instability and making it work for them.

Amos enjoys hurting others. Amos knows that, in Zalanthas, hurting others without purpose usually gets you killed. Instead of running around the alleyways, knifing the random child/prostitute, Amos decides he wants to be able to enjoy his killings without having to hide.

So he joins the militia. Serves dutifully when under scrutiny. Obtains a position of authority.

Then murders, in the name of the Highlord.

[BleakOne]

Plenty of mentally unstable people could survive in Zalanthas. I wrote out more but really, it would obviously make life more difficult but Zalanthans are tough and unstable does not equal stupid.

[musashi]

A functioning sociopath would positively thrive in Zalanthas. It's kind of how I play um ... most of my characters  

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Breeds.

The unstable and insane who can separate the chaotic screaming which is their train of thought from the physical necessity of placing food into their mouth with their hands.

My only good sociopath, my neat little collection of porcelain asylum cases.

More breeds.

Other peoples' amazing villains and unstable persons.

All examples of pcs who not only have screws loose that could conceivably endanger their ability to survive, but also have life rafts, usually leaking, a set of rules and perceptions and lucky circumstances which allow those people to have logical excuses for breathing.

As for stupidity, I tend to gift that to my pcs when I want to do dangerous and interesting things.

[DustMight]

Bah with the bogymen.  The best villains are the ones you can understand.

[Patuk]

If you can dig clay or mine 'sid, nobody is going to care how much you ramble or that you think Lirathu is made out of cheese.

[MeTekillot]

People can be mentally unbalanced and not be hallucination-addled paranoid schizophrenics or cold-blooded thrill killers. Figured I'd mention that.

[Clavis]

There's alot more then just the usually thrill seeking sociopath, to be had when wishing to be mentally unstable.

hallucationatory = responding to unseen, unheard, and unfelt stimilai ie. you and only you can feel the ants crawling on you, hear bells, voices that can say anything at all even harmless. you've a little man on your shoulder that jacks you in the jaw constantly, to name only a few.

dellusional - your mindset is warped twisted, you think things that are not true, but you and you only know them to be true.

bipolar - breeds mostly, your borderline just floating along cool as can be then you hit a low where your suddenly angry, crying, or what ever. Or you hit an upper and you feeeeel sooooo good. ladedah your walking on krathshine oooooh yeah.

you have an explosive personality one second your sweet and innocent next your trying to rip someone's head off. always fun.

split personality - your not just one person your two or more. When you go from Amos to Fancypants everything abut you save for your physical appearance hair color, eye color etc. doesn't change.  everything else can very well.

None of these make any mentally unstable person stupid/ignorant or what have you. though each break from the norm begins to wear on your mind, a mind that is different then rl mind do to being able to way, and maybe other things. Still it eventually impacts certain areas, in example. you have a hard time speaking, yet your still a math genuis. You can't focus yet when your fighting your a beast.

Sadly some of the other affects of mental instability can't be coded, such as the sudden surges of raw power you possess because your mind doesn't tell you you can't throw a half gaint when your a halfling.

just my two sids.

[DustMight]

Bipolar - breeds mostly, your borderline just floating along cool as can be then you hit a low where your suddenly angry, crying, or what ever. Or you hit an upper and you feeeeel sooooo good. ladedah your walking on krathshine oooooh yeah.

You have an explosive personality one second your sweet and innocent next your trying to rip someone's head off. always fun.

This isn't accurate.  I recommend the helpfile which contains the following:

"The heart of the half-elven personality is the tension between wanting acceptance, and wanting independence. The two are really flip sides of the same coin. Because half-elves can never be fully integrated into either human or elven society, a half-elf's history is littered with memories of rejections and slights, both real and perceived. A half-elf's insistence on being self-reliant may be a way of rejecting others before they can reject him or her. While seeking acceptance half-elves will often pretend to have no interest in it."

This is very different than Bipolar, though bipolar behaviors could be used to model a half-elf.  Better, though, to explore the inherent identity crisis, the need for love and acceptance unable to be or struggling to be balanced with the need for individuation.

[Barzalene]

Perhaps attachment disorder would be another model to consider with regards to breeds.

[MeTekillot]

Yes, and borderline and bipolar are two different disorders.

[zarkov]

From what I've seen, not only might someone with a mental disorder thrive, I think it would be more common to have one than not. The rate at which people go out and get killed...most of your friends are gone within a year, each to some horrible demise. Even in Zalanthas, it would affect people. To the smallest extent simply making them lonely/depressed.

Just my two 'sids'

Oh, and I might give my next character vivid hallucinations, screaming and pointing in random directions on crowded night in the Gaj would be interesting!  

[Clavis]

Yes, and borderline and bipolar are two different disorders.

sorry didn't mean borderline as in the disorder but as a base line between a high and low. The middle ground between one pole and the other in a bipolar.

Bipolar - breeds mostly, your borderline just floating along cool as can be then you hit a low where your suddenly angry, crying, or what ever. Or you hit an upper and you feeeeel sooooo good. ladedah your walking on krathshine oooooh yeah.

You have an explosive personality one second your sweet and innocent next your trying to rip someone's head off. always fun.

This isn't accurate.  I recommend the helpfile which contains the following:

"The heart of the half-elven personality is the tension between wanting acceptance, and wanting independence. The two are really flip sides of the same coin. Because half-elves can never be fully integrated into either human or elven society, a half-elf's history is littered with memories of rejections and slights, both real and perceived. A half-elf's insistence on being self-reliant may be a way of rejecting others before they can reject him or her. While seeking acceptance half-elves will often pretend to have no interest in it."

This is very different than Bipolar, though bipolar behaviors could be used to model a half-elf.  Better, though, to explore the inherent identity crisis, the need for love and acceptance unable to be or struggling to be balanced with the need for individuation.

I've always thought of them as more bipolar why I put that in there. though perhaps another of the social disorders would be better fitting. just really to lazy to go through all the disorders, even lumping them together into generic commonly used and misconstrued terms would take up alooot of space.

[Marauder Moe]

Meh.

Zalanthas still has societies.  In those societies, murder has consequences, even if you're a soldier/templar/noble.  

Also, you can't just stroll into murder-mart and off someone.  There will be periods where convenient victims do not present themselves.  It's not terribly consistent of your psychopath character to just shrug it off and wait.

It is a fallacy to think that just because Zalanthas is harsh and gritty that you can simply ignore the consequences/downsides of whatever mental illness you wish to portray.

[Clavis]

Meh.

Zalanthas still has societies.  In those societies, murder has consequences, even if you're a soldier/templar/noble. 

Also, you can't just stroll into murder-mart and off someone.  There will be periods where convenient victims do not present themselves.  It's not terribly consistent of your psychopath character to just shrug it off and wait.

It is a fallacy to think that just because Zalanthas is harsh and gritty that you can simply ignore the consequences/downsides of whatever mental illness you wish to portray.

yeah you as the player would need to remember that, the pc on the other hand probably depending upon the extent of their instability, and other things, wouldn't care. During an 'episode' they most assuredly would have no problem going to the local murder mart to hack someone up. When not having an 'episode' then they'd be more inclined to wait, and watch, for that time.

Again allot of this would deal with extent of their instability, and the nature of their mental illness/madness/what have you.

Perhaps attachment disorder would be another model to consider with regards to breeds.

hadn't thought of that one, though it's another good one for breeds.

[KankWhisperer]

Dwarves.

[Fujikoma]

Not saying there wouldn't be consequences for certain "issues" that would pop up. Of course there would. Even people with nothing wrong with them are going to have issues they can't really avoid popping up, which might very well result in their death, if they don't handle the situation the right way. My issue is with people saying people with certain "issues" wouldn't live past the age of twenty.

While kill-crazy lunatics may be a popular subject in news and entertainment, most people with issues are just struggling to get by, and would rather not stab or shoot up a dozen people at the supermarket. That is not to say it doesn't happen, or that you won't get stabbed if you mess around and say the wrong thing to the wrong person. I've heard there's a bit of debate over whether sociopaths and psychopaths (as well as whether the two should be considered separate or not) can be considered mentally ill, no serial killers have been found not guilty by reason of insanity (at least in America), last I checked. I've read there's a significant structural difference in the brain there, but I'd need to read more about it before saying much.

I've read it does happen, certain seriously twisted individuals pass off as completely normal and attain social status and respect, that it works as excellent cover or even an excuse for fulfilling their murderous desires. A real pillar of the community, church going, well respected, does a lot of work with the boyscouts, mutilates and kills people out in the woods for thrills and taunts police with clues... One of my friends shook the hand of the BTK killer when we were in the boyscouts, and was later shocked to see him on the news.

I would have more to say, but I'm still gathering information and thinking about it, checking to see where my previous perceptions may have been incorrect.

[DustMight]

It's interesting that all this talk of mental disorders revolve around somehow validating the urge to kill other PCs.  
What about the majority of disabilities that would render the PC non-violent, vulnerable or socially unpopular?

If this is all really about "how can it be ok for me to kill other peeps with my pc" then there are far better ways then half-heartedly throwing the DSM at it.

How come we're not talking about the obsessive that is working three jobs and spamcrafting so he can give all his coins to the needy?  Or playing the psychotic dude who believes that he is Tek himself?  Or the fellow who has inappropriate relations with beetles?

In this world, we don't need to be crazy to be killers.  We are killers because sometimes, on occasion, we just need to be.

Edit to add:  Feel free to ignore.  I am feeling pugilistic. I should probably go and hit my heavy bag, but I have to go to work instead.

[Fujikoma]

I think in part because of common misconceptions, perpetuated by the media, the internet and word of mouth, that may find its way into the game as just that, an excuse to kill PCs, when really, none is needed, player characters will give you plenty of reasons to want them dead if you just talk to them long enough, without having to say oh, I did it because Tek told me to!

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what I'm reading, I dunno.

[Lutagar]

Unstable characters can lead to great, plot advancing RP outside of killing everyone. More so when these things occur as unfourtante character development -after- the background.  Maybe they're afraid of letting people get close so they act abrasive. Maybe they never get anywhere in life, because deep down, they hate themselves and keep getting in their own way. I had alot fun with one character who acted all high and mighty because of an inferiority complex.


I don't think I have it within me to portray a Sociopath/Schizophrenic realistically, but kudos to those who can.

[Bogre]

It's interesting that all this talk of mental disorders revolve around somehow validating the urge to kill other PCs.  
What about the majority of disabilities that would render the PC non-violent, vulnerable or socially unpopular?

If this is all really about "how can it be ok for me to kill other peeps with my pc" then there are far better ways then half-heartedly throwing the DSM at it.

How come we're not talking about the obsessive that is working three jobs and spamcrafting so he can give all his coins to the needy?  Or playing the psychotic dude who believes that he is Tek himself?  Or the fellow who has inappropriate relations with beetles?

Because more often PCs take on the 'I'm a sociopath' or 'IM CRAZY NOW' mental instability rather than actually roleplaying some garden-variety OCD or depression.

[Fujikoma]

Maybe because it's so commonly expressed on the GDB that depressed people get stabbed for mysterious reasons... I dunno, maybe witches can brew superior quality potions out of depressed people, it's never been explained very well to me, I don't think.

Also, the people that overdo it or play it wrong will quite possibly find themselves creating a new character very shortly, I wager.

What bothers me is usually it seems to be expressed in an always/never manner, as if anything anywhere is always true/false, all or nothing, enemy or friend... I don't agree with the "No, this absolutely cannot happen." or even the "This would be the exception." viewpoints. As it is, you'd have enough time to grow to an adult, mate, get work in etc. before these things began changing the character's life significantly, passing on the traits... In a world where so many die so shortly, without written records on the lives of commoners, stamping it out would be a difficult, if not impossible task.

It's an impediment to continued survival of the individual, sure, but it's not something that would be ruthlessly tracked and squashed, considering it's such a primitive society with no idea what really is happening the individual. If anything, I'd start with the assumption that it would be more widespread... I'd imagine PTSD would run rampant in certain circles, and that could happen to ANYONE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder

tl;dr Blah blah blah oh hey, PTSD.

EDIT: On further reading about PTSD, a topic I've not looked into much, but should have, having known a number of people suffering from it (and being told by relatives they think that might be part of my problem), it's incorrect, perhaps, to say that it could happen to anyone, but I think it would be incorrect to assume it couldn't happen, as well.

[Dalmeth]

I don't think I have it within me to portray a Sociopath/Schizophrenic realistically, but kudos to those who can.

It's pretty simple.  Do what everyone tells you to do and have no personality.

[Flincher]

Breeds. At first I thought breeds were annoying emo characters, and sadly thats how they are generally portrayed.

However..breeds are so perfect for a variety of mental issues right out of character creation. Anything from being bi-polar to stalking someone obsessively for smiling at you.

I'm really not a fan of most killing spree types..I'd have zero issue with a serial killer that captured characters gave them a long torture session then killed them ritualistically. But psychopaths that murder just for the hell of it are boring and degrading to the mud.

Sociopaths that will do anything just to get ahead are meh, it really depends on how its played. There are a bit too many sociopaths, IE. basically any noble or Templar I've met .