Elves being crew on silt skimmers, airships, and submarines

[RogueGunslinger]

Well I mean... Elven strength is notoriously bad. Carrying more than their clothes is already a bitch.

"I won't ride, because I am strong and capable and can carry myself, but, I'm too weak to carry these things I need, and admit it, so I will let a mount carry it for me while I walk."

Yeah, it's so irrational, it's hardly even human.

This is the worst excuse ever.

[Taven]

The above is a lot shorter, and still gets to the point. As said above, I believe that an elf's view on any object is if they are dependent on it or not. Would the task be impossible without it, or does it make it easier? Does it require relying on something living besides the elf? If an object just makes a task easier, an elf is probably fine with it. If an elf has to rely on said object, I think that is where elves would refuse, because of their pride. They rely on nothing but themselves for movement!

So, using your logic, if they had to be dependent on the power of Whira to fly (such as - calling on the power of whira, for instance), and were not able to fly by the power of their own bodies - then they wouldn't fly.

Hm.

I see what you're saying, and it could be a fair point.

I would argue, however, that Whira is just a tool in this case, but it's not a tool that can be taken away (at least generally speaking). In the case of an elementalist, it's inborn and part of you. It is not an object you are relying on. It's not the same as a magickal floating rock that someone can steal. You need to work to learn how to call Whira, and if you can use it for transportation at all is based on your hard work.

Could you argue that's similar to a mount, because learning to ride is hard work? Sure. But the mount is something that can be taken away, and is an actual creature that you're relying on, rather then a power source (which is how elves, and most people, probably think of Whira as being).

I still don't see how elves are able to use pack mounts given the logic that they are too proud to let anything but their own power move themselves.

If they are so proud that they can't ride, I don't see how having another creature carry the things you need is ok.

"I won't ride, because I am strong and capable and can carry myself, but, I'm too weak to carry these things I need, and admit it, so I will let a mount carry it for me while I walk."

I'll admit, this has never made a ton of sense to me.

I guess it's just one of those mentality things. Carrying you is different from carrying your stuff. Just like a northern noble kanking a slave is different from kanking a commoner. Well, wait, isn't that slave still not a noble? Yes, but the way that slaves are viewed is different, and that makes it okay.

[Inks]

So elves riding summoned mounts are okay?

[BleakOne]

So elves riding summoned mounts are okay?

Nope.

[Taven]

So elves riding summoned mounts are okay?

An elf can find and capture a mount using his/her own two legs. An elf can summon a mount using his/her own magick power.

In both of these cases, riding the mount is not okay, because in both cases it is depending on another creature for moving them. Elven pride prohibits this.

[musashi]

Now wearing boots is fine because the elf can run without boots so the tool is just helping while a skimmer is not fine because the elf couldn't go on silt without the skimmer ... but ... the elf couldn't go flying without a whiran spell ... but ... that's ok ... because erm ... you can't steal the spell away from the elf ... but ... you can steal the boots ... ... erm ...

o.O

[Lizzie]

Now wearing boots is fine because the elf can run without boots so the tool is just helping while a skimmer is not fine because the elf couldn't go on silt without the skimmer ... but ... the elf couldn't go flying without a whiran spell ... but ... that's ok ... because erm ... you can't steal the spell away from the elf ... but ... you can steal the boots ... ... erm ...

o.O

That is exactly my point. I mean - if it's all arbitrary, just say so. But the whole "you can do this, but not that, because this is a, and that is a, but only kind of, because then there's a little of b, which is in a already, but not in the same way as it is with the other thing..." is just convoluted and contrived.

[Fujikoma]

I think what this thread is basically saying, at least to me, is, elves are freakin' nuts and you'll never understand them so why are you trying? And I suppose the answer is that I start with the assumption that it has to start making sense somewhere, and I need to keep looking around until I see it because otherwise, yeah, I'll never understand them.

I don't want to hear about the risks involved and elves being smart. This doesn't stand up to much inspection at all and always looked to me like some sand to throw in someone's eyes who is asking questions. Yes, elves are smart, and from what I've observed, partial to really dumb things which are not in their interests all the time, or even any time. These are not the elves you're looking for *handwaves*. They take pride in their ability to do these things, as it justifies their sense of superiority over other races, or that's how I gather it works.

It's hard for me, as a player without hardly any examples from certain areas to look at as examples, aside from the occasional crazy elf does crazy thing and makes interesting decoration in the street, at least until they rot. Presents interesting challenges to understanding. You keep looking around because it's something you want to understand better but there's not really much to see.

I'm never playing a Tuluki again, before anyone suggests. Maybe not always true, but for me it was, once you go 'Nak, you never go back. Subtle is still something I'm learning to do.

[Withered Ocotillo]

I'd like to thank Taven for taking the time to respond in detail to all my questions and not dismissing them as a joke.

You've given some of the most descriptive arguments on why an elf would distinguish tools differently from mounts. The argument seems to be that if a tool assists the natural abilities of the elf (climbing or running, for climbing gloves or running shoes), then it is considered acceptable. Using physical muscles are also a requirement for the tool to be considered acceptable.

So basically, if someone were to create silt-skis or silt-snowshoes that allowed someone to walk on silt under their own power, could we say that this would be acceptable? The magic hover-stone in the boots idea was dismissed as unacceptable for an elf to use, and is that because the elf doesn't need to move their legs while floating?

If an elf created a glider where they had to flap their arms to keep aloft, using their arm muscles to control their descent, would this also be acceptable? Or is it not acceptable because elves can't fly without assistance? Elves can't walk on silt without assistance, either. And elves can't climb some surfaces without a rope, either.

So let's take three things an elf can't do naturally:

1) Climb a sheer vertical surface
2) Run across silt
3) Fly in the air

And then we look at the tools that could make this possible (assuming these items all exist, for the sake of better understanding the elven mentality, and not to get them coded as items):

1) A rope
2) Silt-skis/silt-snowshoes
3) Arm-powered glider

If #1 is ok but #2 and #3 are not, then I feel we need a better explanation as to why that is. If all three points are considered acceptable, then I think we're one step closer to understanding the elven mentality of why they won't "ride" transportation.

[Morrolan]

I'm never playing a Tuluki again, before anyone suggests. Maybe not always true, but for me it was, once you go 'Nak, you never go back.

Oh, you'll be back...

...preferably with an occupying force.

[hatchets]

I gotta say, I agree with how things are currently, I don't see Elves going on skimmers. Rarely any real reason to. Yes I see them flying (as rarely as it is I am sure that they have the power of whira as I some how doubt every elf has it) No I don't see them riding animals, and no I don't see them riding wagons and such.

I think the mentality of the 'elf' is what folks are missing. They are trying to humanize them. That they would have the same wide variety of wants and desires that humans have. Why not, oh I dunno, play a C-elf as a C-elf and stop trying to make them an Adventurer. Let's look at a nice section of 'help city elf roleplay'

All elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and thievery.
Among elves, theft is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of
courage.

Theft is desirable simply because it is. If an elf sees something that
belongs to someone else, and provides moderate challenge for them,
they want to take it - simply for the sake of taking it. They may
even discard it later. They may never tell a soul about it (although
because of the respect it garners, they would tell tribemates or
those in their tribeless social circle). They simply take it for the
sake of the act itself. But a big part of what they get out of theft
is the sense of accomplishment, which they get from ever-increasing
challenges (and ever increasing boasts afterward).

Now, where does busting your ass and risking death on a SiltSkimmer make sense? I think it would make more sense, to wait till they are back in dock, and steal their haul, or part of it. Now some might argue "Oh but it says elves are bent towards wandering! Maybe mine wants to wander the silt sea!" Yea well, the exception to the rule is never the rule, and you could always special app for such a role. You can pretty much special app for anything, long as you accept that sometimes staff says no. And even if told yes, you will have internal moral conflicts with it, and be shunned by your own kind, and those around you.

So no, I don't think it should be changed.

[Fujikoma]

The thing to keep in mind is, city-elves are only a couple generations away from surviving out in the desert, desert elves have countless generations of surviving out in the wilds. A city elf going out the gate is not the same as a desert elf walking into a city for the first time, in my opinion.

Wandering and thievery. Good 'nuff for me. City really isn't big enough for wandering. More than one kind of thievery, the blatant hands thing is illegal and isn't always the best way to get what you want, or desire for the sake of the challenge.

The busting your ass part makes sense, least to me, because elves are basically designed, according to the docs, to bust ass, not as slave labor, but as wild, free running creatures that refuse to ride a mount because that would be too easy. I don't see how that makes them lazy, in fact, I see nothing there that says "Elves don't do anything but wait until others have something to steal because they are lazy". Maybe that's hidden in some kind of thread necromancy apocrypha I haven't seen yet, if so, please post links. I disagree with narrow interpretations that pretty much pigeonhole a character into basically a single kind of role, destined to be short lived barring having some kind of support structure in the rinth.

[musashi]

I understood elves' mentality much more clearly when the docs explained that everything hinged on shame felt by allowing another creature to bear your weight for you. Once that was changed to be more abstract I feel like we sunk into a conjectural shit storm as far as making up logically consistent reasoning for it goes.

My current understanding goes something like: Don't get on mounts, wagons, or skimmers because staff said not to. Make up whatever justification you like to rationalize these restrictions within the framework of available documentation.

[Molten Heart]

What's being stated is that elves don't ride skimmers for the same reasons they don't ride mounts or wagons.  While riding on a silt skimmer may or may not be reckless, that isn't the same reason elves aren't using mounts and wagons.

[musashi]

Did you meant to make two contradicting statements? 

[BleakOne]

Elves don't ride on things. Living or not, they simply do not ride on anything willingly.

[MeTekillot]

Elves never go anywhere except their own power. Magicks are your own power, even if you're taking it from an element. Legs are your power. Mounts aren't, skimmers art. Do I find this reasonable? No. But at least this way, it makes sense. If you want your elf to travel the silt seas, learn sorcery or swindle people into building bridged between the islands and walk the bridges.

[musashi]

Elves don't ride on things. Living or not, they simply do not ride on anything willingly.

Does not explain why elves refuse to fly via another elf's magick.

Elves never go anywhere except their own power. Magicks are your own power, even if you're taking it from an element. Legs are your power. Mounts aren't, skimmers art. Do I find this reasonable? No. But at least this way, it makes sense. If you want your elf to travel the silt seas, learn sorcery or swindle people into building bridged between the islands and walk the bridges.

Using a rope to climb an otherwise unscalable cliff is not using your own power, but elves do it.

There does not appear to be to be any clean cut justification that can explain the inconsistencies away. That's fine. That's why I have the current position I posted above.

[LauraMars]

Armageddon may be the ONLY "creative haven" that I have ever encountered to have a blanket rule that an entire race adheres to a specific cultural trait 100% of the time.  Nowhere in the history of actual mankind or fictional mankind or fictional elvenkind or fictional anythingkind has 100% of a sentient race of individual minds adhered to a cultural trait 100% of the time, without deviation, change, or evolution.  It makes no sense at all for this to be the case.  This isn't a case of trying to humanize elves - this is a case of trying to logically understand why millions upon millions of elves would never once in the entire history of their race even consider exploring the silt sea, climbing the unclimbable, or doing anything besides running on the sand, being shady businessmen, and stealing.

As more and more players join us in Armageddon's rich and varied world, more players will be interested in playing elves, and more of these new players will be interested in creatively exploring the boundaries of the elven mindset with roleplay, and writing GREAT and EPIC stories about their characters.  In my opinion, there should be a better balance between allowing creativity, and sternly telling new players that they should be ashamed for thinking of new ways to play elves.  Elves may be irrational, but they aren't the Borg - they have individual brains in between those pointed ears, and I find it hard to believe that not one of those brains in all the history of elvenkind ever thought of deviating from this cultural expectation of not relying on anything but their own two legs (even though they also rely on: each other, their non-elven friends and clanmates to not kill them as they're regenerating stamina in the desert, mounts to carry their things, ropes and ladders to climb walls, and the wind to carry them if they're able to use magick.)

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm just going to say it again, because I like frustrating myself. City elves need some sort of better running, even if it's only in cities. Ignore this derail. I'm sorry.

[Nyr]

I'd like to thank Taven for taking the time to respond in detail to all my questions and not dismissing them as a joke.

Given your history on your other GDB accounts, are you really surprised anyone applied some humor to your hypotheticals on this account (some of which were-admittedly--pretty crazy)?  Lighten up a little bit!

[musashi]

I vote we rewrite all skimmer descriptions so they have silt horrors and silt crabs tethered to the front of them and no sails. Boom! Elves are rational again and still can't ever go in the silt sea! Players and staff alike rejoice and be satisfied 

[BleakOne]

I vote we rewrite all skimmer descriptions so they have silt horrors and silt crabs tethered to the front of them and no sails. Boom! Elves are rational again and still can't ever go in the silt sea! Players and staff alike rejoice and be satisfied 

Maybe they're really just a bunch of silt turtles lashed together?

[Fujikoma]

I found myself laughing for a while at the humorous reply to those crazy questions, then again, I found myself laughing at a lot of things, I hadn't slept in a while and tried to play but quickly realized my brain was too gunked to do so and got a nap.

[gfair]

Wise elves seeing no utility in mounts has always been a clash of ideas. I understand pride, but surely Elves must see other races travel the Known in a day or two. Elven traders and merchants would see this most readily.  There simply has to come a point where the Elven race, as a species, sees its place in the world as weakened because it stubbornly refuses a form of transportation that allows others to cover far more territory and haul far more equipment than a solitary, lightweight Elf can.