Elves being crew on silt skimmers, airships, and submarines

[Lizzie]

Actually, the magick thing was brought up and discussed previously and already posted about about 4 years ago (I think).  Elves could certainly move with their own magickal assistance; they would not move with the magickal assistance of others, though.

At some point in the documentation/website migration, this section was removed from the helpfile for elves:

The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result
of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

and

In other words, elves will never ride on
mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

I've gone ahead and added those two sections back and added in "skimmers" for the second bit.

It's not a matter of trusting the crew, but a matter of pride in their running.

edited to fix that last line, it's not a matter of "trusting" their legs

1. Thanks Nyr, for putting up a new discussion thread for it on your staff board. We bitch and moan about what we want/don't want, revisit topics all the time, but it's encouraging to know that the staff is considering the topics as well.

2. Pride in their running - natural speed and endurance on the run - neither of them have anything to do with harnessing the power of the element Whira. I'm not saying one should be implemented and not the other, or that both should be equal. I'm saying that when you say "X is true" that doesn't mean that "Y is also true" and I think it should be better clarified in the docs. Like maybe add - "matter of pride in their running and their power over the elements" or something like that.

3. This here:

The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result
of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

Means there is only one elven race, and the only difference is the result of lifestyle, not physiology. So that would imply that city elves should be able to run with the same stamina penalties and speed as desert elves. Or - again - something needs to be added to the snippet to explain that the physiological changes resulted from the lifestyle over a period of several kings' ages. Or something like that.

Not a criticism - just suggestions to help clarify the docs. I vaguely remember that thing about the lifestyle, and wasn't it taken out because of the disparity of desert elves vs. city elves with run/stamina?

[Desertman]

I never thought about the whole "skimmer" thing. Wagons make pefect sense. They can run anywhere a wagon can go.

It is interesting though. If the issue is, "They are too proud of their natural endurance on the run.", and the mode of transportation is through an area where running is impossible, even for them, how could taking that mode of transportation damage their pride in regards to running?

If there is ever a floating island in the sky in Armageddon and the only way to get there is to take an airship or get magicked through the air, would elves refuse to fly to that island and never visit it? It is impossible to run there on your legs, so, being flown there wouldn't seem to damage their pride in their endurance/running.

In these scenarios, floating islands, the silt sea, running isn't an option, so it isn't like they are choosing to ride and not run on their own two legs. You can't run there. Elves are smart enough to realize that. It isn't a matter of choice. It is a matter of rational necessity. Reasonably, no other elf is going to look at them and say, "You rode a silt skimmer across the sea and didn't run across it instead? YOU ARE A SHAME TO YOUR RACE! YOU SHOULD HAVE RAN IT!"

I just don't see how not doing something in an environment where it is impossible to do such would rationally hurt someone's pride.

But then I'm assuming that this is a rational thing.

If the answer is, "We know it isn't rational. It isn't supposed to be rational. Elves are very irrational about this subject."

Then we are good to go I guess.

[Cutthroat]

It might be best to just say that elves are proud of their own natural (or unnatural) ability to move around, and leave out the specific declaration on running. That would explain a bunch of things, including the fact that elves are one race but the schism of cultures between desert and city elves resulted in different conditioning for each sub-group, and make it clear that it's okay for elves to use magic on themselves to move their bodies in different ways. It could also justify an elf using a skimmer so long as they are piloting it, without justifying the use of wagons or mounts because there are "better" ways for an elf to move.

[Withered Ocotillo]

Some philosophy questions regarding elven taboos:


Is it taboo for an elf to wear climbing gloves/boots when climbing a cliff? The tool emulates a beast (claws and leather of a beast), and provides the elf with an artificial way of getting up the cliff that doesn't rely solely on hands and feet. What if the elf was able to build a back-worn glider out of avian bones and feathers? Would the elf be ok with using climbing gloves but not the glider?

Is it taboo for an elf to use a rope while climbing, when the climb may actually be possible without it? (but more risky)

Is it taboo for an elf to use a ladder to get from one height to another? If there is no other way up besides this ladder (no possible way to climb), then do they simply refuse to use a ladder, or the ladder is fine in this case? What if the ladder is twenty feet tall and sits in a library, and has wheels that can push it around the bookshelves (making it a form of transportation)? Can the elf climb the ladder at this point? Or do the wheels or size of the ladder now make it a taboo to ride? (Especially if another elf pushes the ladder when the elf is on it)

What if an elf stole a magical stone from a sorcerer, and by holding this stone, he could hover across the ground. Travelling over the silt sea is possible as long as this elf holds the stone. Would an elf use this stone because they can control their flight, or would they refuse it, because it's a tool that assists travel, and elves don't use tools that assist travel (this would probably include climbing gloves/boots, ropes, as well as the stone). What if this elf sews this same stone into the seams of his boots, and now has flying boots. Would using these boots to hover over the silt sea be a taboo? Would the boots be regarded in the same way as climbing boots? Or would it be regarded in the same way as an elf would regard a glider?

After being knocked out in a slaver attack on her tribe, a desert elf wakes up on an island, surrounded on all sides by the silt sea. There is a silt skimmer docked nearby, and two men can be seen playing Kruth on large stone nearby. The elf's wrists have been tied, but she thinks she might be able to cut the bonds on a nearby rock if she's subtle about it. What is the elf thinking right now? Would she be planning her escape? Stealing the skimmer? Killing her attackers? Or would she first be thinking about the great shame she would endure once she kills her kidnappers, steals their skimmer, and shamefully crosses the sea to search for the rest of her tribe? Maybe it's better to die on the island than to steal the skimmer?

[ShaLeah]

I was going to throw my opinion out on Whiran elves and skimming elves. I think I'll refrain from one.

Elves on skimmers... to me it falls under the same category of wagons, if you're an elf, you don't ride. Period.

[Nyr]

Fair point to say that elves aren't rational.

So that would imply that city elves should be able to run with the same stamina penalties and speed as desert elves.

Not necessarily, no.  You're mixing up code with culture--the doc is there to explain more than elves are part of the same race.  There is more to the city elf than simply not being able to do the exact same thing a desert elf can do in the same environment a desert elf does it.  While it isn't laid down in helpfiles or documentation (maybe it should be?) it is (hopefully?) apparent to those that play city elves.

Or - again - something needs to be added to the snippet to explain that the physiological changes resulted from the lifestyle over a period of several kings' ages. Or something like that.

There aren't really things that I would call physiological changes.  Desert elves are more adept in an outdoors environment; city elves are more adept in an indoors/city environment.

Not a criticism - just suggestions to help clarify the docs. I vaguely remember that thing about the lifestyle, and wasn't it taken out because of the disparity of desert elves vs. city elves with run/stamina?

I don't remember that.  While it is possible it was removed deliberately, I would assume it was part of the website revamp/DB issue.  I can check into that, though!

[Desertman]

Also, the first dwarf I am ever going to play.

The sinister-grin-scarred, cruel-eyed dwarf

Focus:

Capture elves
Strap elves to mounts
Lead elves around on mounts while mocking them for riding until they go insane
Release insane elves back into the desert

Profit

[ShaLeah]

Also, the first dwarf I am ever going to play.

The sinister-grin-scarred, cruel-eyed dwarf

Focus:

Capture elves
Strap elves to mounts
Lead elves around on mounts while mocking them for riding until they go insane
Release insane elves back inot the desert

Profit

I laughed so hard coffee shot out my nose.

* ShaLeah hearts D-Man in that insane relative kinda way.

[Inks]

I see elves riding about on inix like they own the place.

[spicemustflow]

Also, the first dwarf I am ever going to play.

The sinister-grin-scarred, cruel-eyed dwarf

Focus:

Capture elves
Strap elves to mounts
Lead elves around on mounts while mocking them for riding until they go insane
Release insane elves back into the desert

Profit

That happened to one of the Red Fangs of old, iirc. No embarrassment ensued when she returned home strapped to erdlu's back.

Also, in a couple of posts this thread will degenerate into "would an elf sit on a chair? it has legs that are not his own"

edit: what's the difference between a ladder and a cliff wall with suitable handholds anyway?

[Marauder Moe]

Fair point to say that elves aren't rational.

This.  Finally.

elves aren't rational.

elves aren't rational.

elves aren't rational.

Also I've never understood this burning offense that elves can't go on skimmers.  Why do some people believe that any character should be able to go anywhere in the game or do anything in the game?

Elves can't go on skimmers.
Southern nobles/templars can't go north, northern nobles/templars can't go south. (Generally)
Aides don't get to explore the deep wastes.
Gypsies don't get to see the Allanaki senate.
No one gets to ride the gypsy water slides but the gypsies.
There are dozens of other highly secret places in the world that none but a very select few will ever go.

[lordcooper]

I will not be moved by any power other than my own.

[Nyr]

Some philosophy questions regarding elven taboos:


Is it taboo for an elf to wear climbing gloves/boots when climbing a cliff?

No.

What if the elf was able to build a back-worn glider out of avian bones and feathers?  Would the elf be ok with using climbing gloves but not the glider?

We don't have code for it, or any existing glider objects, so we'd nix it before they mastercrafted it.  The question is now unnecessary.

Is it taboo for an elf to use a rope while climbing, when the climb may actually be possible without it? (but more risky)

No.

Is it taboo for an elf to use a ladder to get from one height to another?

No.

If there is no other way up besides this ladder (no possible way to climb), then do they simply refuse to use a ladder, or the ladder is fine in this case?

We covered this above.

What if the ladder is twenty feet tall and sits in a library, and has wheels that can push it around the bookshelves (making it a form of transportation)?

The elf should be executed for stealing books, or for trying to read; any library is surely guarded and trespassing in such an area by an elf should be treated with the most extreme measures.

Can the elf climb the ladder at this point?

No, because the elf is dead.

Or do the wheels or size of the ladder now make it a taboo to ride? (Especially if another elf pushes the ladder when the elf is on it)

Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.

What if an elf stole a magical stone from a sorcerer, and by holding this stone, he could hover across the ground. Travelling over the silt sea is possible as long as this elf holds the stone. Would an elf use this stone because they can control their flight, or would they refuse it, because it's a tool that assists travel, and elves don't use tools that assist travel (this would probably include climbing gloves/boots, ropes, as well as the stone). What if this elf sews this same stone into the seams of his boots, and now has flying boots. Would using these boots to hover over the silt sea be a taboo? Would the boots be regarded in the same way as climbing boots? Or would it be regarded in the same way as an elf would regard a glider?

Tell you what:  you play an elf that actually has reason to want to steal a magickal stone from a sorcerer, and actually manages to do it, and actually gets to the edge of the Silt Sea, and we'll talk then.  This is silly.

After being knocked out in a slaver attack on her tribe, a desert elf wakes up on an island, surrounded on all sides by the silt sea. There is a silt skimmer docked nearby, and two men can be seen playing Kruth on large stone nearby. The elf's wrists have been tied, but she thinks she might be able to cut the bonds on a nearby rock if she's subtle about it. What is the elf thinking right now?

"Wow, these are some dumb slavers.  Who are they going to sell me to out here?  Wouldn't it be way easier to just sell me to one of the pits?  Wait, am I a city-elf or a desert-elf?  I guess if I'm a city elf, why did they take me away from my city to this island?  Wow, these are some dumb slavers."

Would she be planning her escape?

Escape to where?  She's on an island.  She's never seen an island before.  She may not even know the word for island.  Which direction does she go, can she even see Suk-Krath clearly through the haze?

Stealing the skimmer?

Stealing it to do what?  How would she know anything about what a skimmer does?  She's an elf.

Killing her attackers?

Well they weren't attackers, they were slavers, right?  She'd probably try to swindle them; this would be an epic opportunity!  Or maybe she'd wait and show that she is alert and find out exactly what these slavers are planning to do with her way out here.

Or would she first be thinking about the great shame she would endure once she kills her kidnappers, steals their skimmer, and shamefully crosses the sea to search for the rest of her tribe?

Yeah, I doubt she's going to know how to pilot a skimmer or know where to go.  She wouldn't be thinking about great shame, she'd be thinking about the absurdity of the situation.

Maybe it's better to die on the island than to steal the skimmer?

Maybe so.  It really looks like a contrived situation that no elf PC has ever or will ever come across.

[Nyr]

While it may not really be noticeable or necessary, I did add "willingly" to the elf docs.  It's great that we can change this stuff so quickly.

In other words, elves will never willingly
ride on mounts, in wagons, or on skimmers, as to do so would be to
insult one of the few things they are proud of: their natural speed and
endurance on the run.

[spicemustflow]

Also I've never understood this burning offense that elves can't go on skimmers.  Why do some people believe that any character should be able to go anywhere in the game or do anything in the game?

No one's offended by restrictions. You'll never see soh players bitching because they won't see the senate. It's just that reducing the elven mindset to "with my two legs" is silly. All elves are more or less insane, yes, but they're smart and adaptable. In a hypothetical situation where a tribe's survival hinged on getting to island A, I can see them all hopping onto a skimmer without second thought. After all, they did settle the cities at one point in time, even though half of the first generation probably went nuts from claustrophobia.

[Desertman]

While it may not really be noticeable or necessary, I did add "willingly" to the elf docs.  It's great that we can change this stuff so quickly.

In other words, elves will never willingly
ride on mounts, in wagons, or on skimmers, as to do so would be to
insult one of the few things they are proud of: their natural speed and
endurance on the run.

I take credit for this. 

[Withered Ocotillo]

Some philosophy questions regarding elven taboos:


Is it taboo for an elf to wear climbing gloves/boots when climbing a cliff?

No.

What if the elf was able to build a back-worn glider out of avian bones and feathers?  Would the elf be ok with using climbing gloves but not the glider?

We don't have code for it, or any existing glider objects, so we'd nix it before they mastercrafted it.  The question is now unnecessary.

Is it taboo for an elf to use a rope while climbing, when the climb may actually be possible without it? (but more risky)

No.

Is it taboo for an elf to use a ladder to get from one height to another?

No.

If there is no other way up besides this ladder (no possible way to climb), then do they simply refuse to use a ladder, or the ladder is fine in this case?

We covered this above.

What if the ladder is twenty feet tall and sits in a library, and has wheels that can push it around the bookshelves (making it a form of transportation)?

The elf should be executed for stealing books, or for trying to read; any library is surely guarded and trespassing in such an area by an elf should be treated with the most extreme measures.

Can the elf climb the ladder at this point?

No, because the elf is dead.

Or do the wheels or size of the ladder now make it a taboo to ride? (Especially if another elf pushes the ladder when the elf is on it)

Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.

Armageddon Helpers take note here of how you give helpful and detailed responses to player questions.

[Molten Heart]

Guys, elves can <redacted>.  They don't need skimmers.

[Malken]

Guys, elves can walk on silt.  They don't need skimmers.

Hahah, that's like saying that someone actually walked on water and try to convince me that people would actually believe it!

Oh you! 

[Norcal]

Fair point to say that elves aren't rational.

This.  Finally.

elves aren't rational.

elves aren't rational.

elves aren't rational.

No one gets to ride the gypsy water slides but the gypsies.

Gypsies have water slides?

[Potaje]

Hey elf, you should just go swim in the silt sea. You don't need a skimmer, pshaw, you can use your arms and legs to get where you want. Not like those other weak races. Drov, you'll show them, yes, you'll back stroke right on by as they labor, clustered tight and sweaty in those odd things called skimmers. You can point and laugh, then catch the next wave of silt and body surf the rest of the way.

[Taven]

Is it taboo for an elf to wear climbing gloves/boots when climbing a cliff? The tool emulates a beast (claws and leather of a beast), and provides the elf with an artificial way of getting up the cliff that doesn't rely solely on hands and feet.

I think elves are fine with things like boots. In normal running, you'll see elves wearing boots. If it was a problem that they couldn't wear boots at all, then they wouldn't. I see what you're trying to question here... I think the difference is that the elf is still trying on their muscles. It's their leg muscles propelling them up the cliff, even if they have some assistance from climbing boots or gloves.

You could argue that riding also uses muscles, but it's different because it's depending on an actual creature. An elf won't put up with that, because that would mean relying on someone/something besides itself.

What if the elf was able to build a back-worn glider out of avian bones and feathers? Would the elf be ok with using climbing gloves but not the glider?

Staff (Nyr) said this wasn't possible, but I'll answer anyway. I would venture a guess that this would not be okay. Why? Because the tool required is complex. Similar to a skimmer, without this tool, the task is impossible. With climbing, the task is possible but made easier by a tool. Thus, there is no dependency on a tool. With a glider or skimmer, there is dependency on a tool. Elves want to do it themselves, they rely on nothing!

Is it taboo for an elf to use a rope while climbing, when the climb may actually be possible without it? (but more risky)

See above.

Is it taboo for an elf to use a ladder to get from one height to another? If there is no other way up besides this ladder (no possible way to climb), then do they simply refuse to use a ladder, or the ladder is fine in this case? What if the ladder is twenty feet tall and sits in a library, and has wheels that can push it around the bookshelves (making it a form of transportation)? Can the elf climb the ladder at this point? Or do the wheels or size of the ladder now make it a taboo to ride? (Especially if another elf pushes the ladder when the elf is on it)

A ladder would be fine. Why? Because it is a simple tool. An elf can climb on it's own, a ladder makes it easier. I think that the change here is that an elf pushing an elf on a wheeled ladder is not okay. Why? Because that elf is now depending on someone else, and that just isn't okay in the elven pride mindset.

What if an elf stole a magical stone from a sorcerer, and by holding this stone, he could hover across the ground. Travelling over the silt sea is possible as long as this elf holds the stone. Would an elf use this stone because they can control their flight, or would they refuse it, because it's a tool that assists travel, and elves don't use tools that assist travel (this would probably include climbing gloves/boots, ropes, as well as the stone). What if this elf sews this same stone into the seams of his boots, and now has flying boots. Would using these boots to hover over the silt sea be a taboo? Would the boots be regarded in the same way as climbing boots? Or would it be regarded in the same way as an elf would regard a glider?

I would guess that an elf would not use the stone. Why? Because he is too dependent on the item. It isn't like climbing boots, rope, or ladders. It is a singular object on which the elf would be totally dependent. An elf is relying on it's power, rather then his/her own. If an elf refuses to be magickally flown by another, then it stands to reason that an elf would refuse such a tool. The reasoning is very similar to that of a glider.

After being knocked out in a slaver attack on her tribe, a desert elf wakes up on an island, surrounded on all sides by the silt sea. There is a silt skimmer docked nearby, and two men can be seen playing Kruth on large stone nearby. The elf's wrists have been tied, but she thinks she might be able to cut the bonds on a nearby rock if she's subtle about it. What is the elf thinking right now? Would she be planning her escape? Stealing the skimmer? Killing her attackers? Or would she first be thinking about the great shame she would endure once she kills her kidnappers, steals their skimmer, and shamefully crosses the sea to search for the rest of her tribe? Maybe it's better to die on the island than to steal the skimmer?

This seems like a very extreme example. It does seem pretty odd that slavers would bring an elf to an island in the middle of the silt sea. There would be a great deal of shame in this; she was transported here against her own power. I agree with Nyr that an elf would probably try and swindle someone; that's what elves do. Would the elf ever get off the island? An elf may well find it preferable to stay on an island then do anything else. Perhaps the elf would work to find a way that their own legs could take them across the sea. In any event, this seems unlikely (though maybe someone will try it now!). I think that the individual elf would have to RP out the situation, and perhaps ask staff for guidance at that point in time.

Armageddon Helpers take note here of how you give helpful and detailed responses to player questions.

Hopefully these answers were helpful. It's hard for staff to answer something when lots of improbable situations are outlined. A better approach would probably be to discuss the generals behind why an elf thinks how it does, rather then getting into a very long list of theoretical situations. An example would be asking: "Why does an elf's view on tools such as a rope, climbing boots, or ladders (potentially) vary from their views on mounts, wagons, and silt skimmers? If they had a flying glider, what would their view on that be?"

The above is a lot shorter, and still gets to the point. As said above, I believe that an elf's view on any object is if they are dependent on it or not. Would the task be impossible without it, or does it make it easier? Does it require relying on something living besides the elf? If an object just makes a task easier, an elf is probably fine with it. If an elf has to rely on said object, I think that is where elves would refuse, because of their pride. They rely on nothing but themselves for movement!

[Lizzie]

The above is a lot shorter, and still gets to the point. As said above, I believe that an elf's view on any object is if they are dependent on it or not. Would the task be impossible without it, or does it make it easier? Does it require relying on something living besides the elf? If an object just makes a task easier, an elf is probably fine with it. If an elf has to rely on said object, I think that is where elves would refuse, because of their pride. They rely on nothing but themselves for movement!

So, using your logic, if they had to be dependent on the power of Whira to fly (such as - calling on the power of whira, for instance), and were not able to fly by the power of their own bodies - then they wouldn't fly.

Hm.

[Desertman]

I still don't see how elves are able to use pack mounts given the logic that they are too proud to let anything but their own power move themselves.

If they are so proud that they can't ride, I don't see how having another creature carry the things you need is ok.

"I won't ride, because I am strong and capable and can carry myself, but, I'm too weak to carry these things I need, and admit it, so I will let a mount carry it for me while I walk."

[Morrolan]

"I won't ride, because I am strong and capable and can carry myself, but, I'm too weak to carry these things I need, and admit it, so I will let a mount carry it for me while I walk."

Yeah, it's so irrational, it's hardly even human.