Elves being crew on silt skimmers, airships, and submarines

[musashi]

That's no problem gfair because desert elves can run faster and further than a mount. Their legs are like frickin magick! And they use pack animals to carry the heavy trade stuff.

City elves ... well ... just generally shouldn't travel.

[Patuk]

Wise elves seeing no utility in mounts has always been a clash of ideas. I understand pride, but surely Elves must see other races travel the Known in a day or two. Elven traders and merchants would see this most readily.  There simply has to come a point where the Elven race, as a species, sees its place in the world as weakened because it stubbornly refuses a form of transportation that allows others to cover far more territory and haul far more equipment than a solitary, lightweight Elf can.

Yeah, I.. I'm going to have to throw in here that elves don't quite think in terms of species. There's me, my brothers, my parents, and everyone related to them, the people I trust. And there's 'them.' 'Them' can be anyone, and it certainly includes other elves. Add this to elves never, ever, at all seeing themselves as inferior to other beings, and, well.. Yeah, this isn't going to happen.

[hatchets]

Armageddon may be the ONLY "creative haven" that I have ever encountered to have a blanket rule that an entire race adheres to a specific cultural trait 100% of the time.  Nowhere in the history of actual mankind or fictional mankind or fictional elvenkind or fictional anythingkind has 100% of a sentient race of individual minds adhered to a cultural trait 100% of the time, without deviation, change, or evolution.  It makes no sense at all for this to be the case.  This isn't a case of trying to humanize elves - this is a case of trying to logically understand why millions upon millions of elves would never once in the entire history of their race even consider exploring the silt sea, climbing the unclimbable, or doing anything besides running on the sand, being shady businessmen, and stealing.

As more and more players join us in Armageddon's rich and varied world, more players will be interested in playing elves, and more of these new players will be interested in creatively exploring the boundaries of the elven mindset with roleplay, and writing GREAT and EPIC stories about their characters.  In my opinion, there should be a better balance between allowing creativity, and sternly telling new players that they should be ashamed for thinking of new ways to play elves.  Elves may be irrational, but they aren't the Borg - they have individual brains in between those pointed ears, and I find it hard to believe that not one of those brains in all the history of elvenkind ever thought of deviating from this cultural expectation of not relying on anything but their own two legs (even though they also rely on: each other, their non-elven friends and clanmates to not kill them as they're regenerating stamina in the desert, mounts to carry their things, ropes and ladders to climb walls, and the wind to carry them if they're able to use magick.)

You are right, next we should get rid of the rule of riding mounts, cause I am sure one of them elves in the history rides them. Oh, and wagons and caravans next. Yep, we should completely eliminate the norm because one special somebody somewhere might do it and that makes it completely acceptable that all of them can do it at any given moment on the whim of the player. Your logic eats itself.

Or.... We can leave it as the acceptable norm, and maybe someone will be special enough to convince staff one day to let them special app it, and then that would be actually making not being normal something special instead of every bored city elf jumping on a skimmer for the hell of it.


And Gfair, elves can use mounts as pack animals. To load up goods, and then take them places, they just don't ride them.

[Fujikoma]

It is quite annoying that city elves should be so gimped travel-wise. Running city streets with minimal penalties is fun until someone decides it looks suspicious. Not really worth the tradeoff in my opinion, unless you're the type who really IS up to something suspicious, then I imagine that's amazing.

I don't see why my city elf can't have a coded method of working up his outdoor walking skills. Maybe have a coded skill that can be developed very over time by walking around outside that reduces the amount of stamina lost. Then again, I don't know how it works for desert elves, which actually have cool things to do and tribes because herf, need a point of karma and to try a suck elf first.

[hatchets]

City elves are amazing. You just have to get into the city mindset. outside bad, inside good. There is a huge world of opportunity already not being taken advantage of without looking for otherthings to do with them. Maybe this is why I am so advocated on this subject, I love city elves, probably my favorite thing to play. My only problem has always been getting stuck 'playing alone' because every other elf seems to join the byn or some such (particularly in allanak)

[Fujikoma]

DELETED. So as not to... Reveal anything, whoops, please ignore the man behind the curtain...

[gfair]

That's no problem gfair because desert elves can run faster and further than a mount.

Mounts don't just extend the distance sentients can travel, they vastly increase the amount of weight that can be moved around the world. Goods are heavy, and the more goods the more weight. And yet up and down from pit to pit, Elves will see others hauling loads of lumber, rock, and other trade goods in quantities that no Elf could ever move around on his own two legs.  That also includes soldiers and weapons.  If the scouts don't see it, the tribal leaders will, the strategists and schemers.

Yeah, I.. I'm going to have to throw in here that elves don't quite think in terms of species. There's me, my brothers, my parents, and everyone related to them, the people I trust. And there's 'them.' 'Them' can be anyone, and it certainly includes other elves. Add this to elves never, ever, at all seeing themselves as inferior to other beings, and, well.. Yeah, this isn't going to happen.

Looks like I have to throw back: You forgot the "us", the "we" (not the Royal we). That's what I was referring to by the species comment. "They" can load up an Inix with a haul of rock, lumber, weapons, goods, and move it across the known in one or two days. We cannot.

As for superiority - superiority goes out the window every time "they" kill "us".  Superiority leads to arrogance, which leads to under-estimation, which leads to misguided risk, which leads to a mistake realized either the easy way or the hard way. And in that moment, every Elf realizes - he is not as mighty as he thought. He is not invincible.

And notions of superiority need to be

[LauraMars]

Armageddon may be the ONLY "creative haven" that I have ever encountered to have a blanket rule that an entire race adheres to a specific cultural trait 100% of the time.  Nowhere in the history of actual mankind or fictional mankind or fictional elvenkind or fictional anythingkind has 100% of a sentient race of individual minds adhered to a cultural trait 100% of the time, without deviation, change, or evolution.  It makes no sense at all for this to be the case.  This isn't a case of trying to humanize elves - this is a case of trying to logically understand why millions upon millions of elves would never once in the entire history of their race even consider exploring the silt sea, climbing the unclimbable, or doing anything besides running on the sand, being shady businessmen, and stealing.

As more and more players join us in Armageddon's rich and varied world, more players will be interested in playing elves, and more of these new players will be interested in creatively exploring the boundaries of the elven mindset with roleplay, and writing GREAT and EPIC stories about their characters.  In my opinion, there should be a better balance between allowing creativity, and sternly telling new players that they should be ashamed for thinking of new ways to play elves.  Elves may be irrational, but they aren't the Borg - they have individual brains in between those pointed ears, and I find it hard to believe that not one of those brains in all the history of elvenkind ever thought of deviating from this cultural expectation of not relying on anything but their own two legs (even though they also rely on: each other, their non-elven friends and clanmates to not kill them as they're regenerating stamina in the desert, mounts to carry their things, ropes and ladders to climb walls, and the wind to carry them if they're able to use magick.)

You are right, next we should get rid of the rule of riding mounts, cause I am sure one of them elves in the history rides them. Oh, and wagons and caravans next. Yep, we should completely eliminate the norm because one special somebody somewhere might do it and that makes it completely acceptable that all of them can do it at any given moment on the whim of the player. Your logic eats itself.

Or.... We can leave it as the acceptable norm, and maybe someone will be special enough to convince staff one day to let them special app it, and then that would be actually making not being normal something special instead of every bored city elf jumping on a skimmer for the hell of it.


And Gfair, elves can use mounts as pack animals. To load up goods, and then take them places, they just don't ride them.

If one elf in the history of elves has ridden a mount or piloted a skimmer, SOMEWHERE, that's all I wanted to know.  Thanks for confirming...

[Marauder Moe]

I suspect elves riding mounts/wagons/skimmers is similar to Tuluki nobles sleeping with commoners: extremely unlikely IG, but one of those things players are wont to ignore so their character can be unique/dangerous.  If you just consider it an OOC rule (that overlaps 99.9% with IG trends) then maybe it'll be easier to accept?

[musashi]

That's no problem gfair because desert elves can run faster and further than a mount.

Mounts don't just extend the distance sentients can travel, they vastly increase the amount of weight that can be moved around the world. Goods are heavy, and the more goods the more weight. And yet up and down from pit to pit, Elves will see others hauling loads of lumber, rock, and other trade goods in quantities that no Elf could ever move around on his own two legs.  That also includes soldiers and weapons.  If the scouts don't see it, the tribal leaders will, the strategists and schemers.

Gfair, you missed the rest of my post; elves can and do use pack animals to move things. They just lead them rather than ride them.

[Taven]

The following is a long post. The view point in it changes from beginning to end; the end conclusions are not the same as the opening ones. Despite this, I have left the thought process in, and not just given the end results.

Why?

I think that considering the full mentality, and seeing how it changes based on questions is important. Hopefully the full version of this post is more useful to you then if I'd just cut the beginning and presented the end conclusions.

Now wearing boots is fine because the elf can run without boots so the tool is just helping while a skimmer is not fine because the elf couldn't go on silt without the skimmer ... but ... the elf couldn't go flying without a whiran spell ... but ... that's ok ... because erm ... you can't steal the spell away from the elf ... but ... you can steal the boots ... ... erm ...

o.O

Okay, here's a table of what I'm trying to say:

Boots	Object	Makes walking easier	Yes
Rope	Object	Makes climbing easier	Yes
Climbing Gloves	Object	Makes climbing easier	Yes
Legs	Self-power	Make walking possible	Yes
Self-Cast Spell	Self-power	Make flying possible	Yes
Other-Cast Spell	Other's power	Make flying possible	No
Skimmer	Object	Make crossing silt possible	No
Mount	Other's power	Makes travel easier	No

If an elf can do it on its own, but an object makes it easier, then that is fine.

If an elf can do it on its own but the power of another makes it easier, then an elf will not do it.

If an elf cannot do it on it's own, but an object makes it possible, then an elf will not do it.

Using a rope to climb an otherwise unscalable cliff is not using your own power, but elves do it.

There does not appear to be to be any clean cut justification that can explain the inconsistencies away. That's fine. That's why I have the current position I posted above.

This does seem to be an arguable point, I'll admit.

However, I think an elf would probably see it as possible to climb without a rope, but something that makes it easier, which would then fit with the above explanation.

"But Taven!" You might say. "What if an elf could clearly tell that it would be totally impossible without a rope? What if the cliff was completely smooth and there was no way to do it under its own power?"

Then...that's why the point is arguable. If we say that the rope is already a commonly-accepted tool that is used, we open the door to wondering why the silt skimmer can't be that way too, or why magick boots can't be that way.

Maybe tools need a more complex treatment then relying on the power of others. Relying on the power of others is always a no, whereas relying on a tool depends on a number of things. Can an elf use it's legs with the tool? If the answer is no (such as with a silt skimmer or wagon), then it shouldn't be used. In the case of magic boots, they are powered by a source outside the elf, so the answer is no. The rope would be a yes, because the elf is still using its own power, and the rope does not have an external source.

That would perhaps modify the above table to read:

Boots	Object	Makes walking easier	Yes
Rope	Object that allows exertion under own power	Makes climbing possible	Yes
Climbing Gloves	Object that allows exertion under own power	Makes climbing easier	Yes
Legs	Self-power	Make walking possible	Yes
Self-Cast Spell	Self-power	Make flying possible	Yes
Other-Cast Spell	Other's power	Make flying possible	No
Skimmer	Object does not allow exertion of legs	Make crossing silt possible	No
Mount	Other's power	Makes travel easier	No

The above statements would then change to:

If an elf can do it on its own, but an object makes it easier AND an elf can use its legs, then that is fine.

If an elf can do it on its own but the power of another makes it easier or possible, then an elf will not do it.

If an elf cannot do it on it's own, but an object makes it possible AND an elf can use its legs, then that is fine.

If an elf cannot do it on it's own, but an object makes it possible AND an elf cannot use its legs, then an elf will not do it.



"But Taven!" You might say. "Using a rope to climb is all about the arms, it doesn't use legs at all! How is using a rope acceptable?"

Well, it's not something that depends on the legs. A skimmer is a form of movement that is replacing legs. Climbing is not, because it's not replacing the legs. In both cases, with or without a rope, you can use legs to steady yourself.

"But Taven!" You might say. "I wasn't going to say that, because I think climbing normally does rely on the legs. You need them to position yourself and find toe holds. This means that a rope is replacing an elf's leg power, and so climbing with a rope should be impossible!"

Well, it's something that also depends on the arms. Running relies solely on the legs, climbing also relies on the arms to pull yourself up. Thus, using a rope doesn't take away from what the elf is doing. Could you use this argument for a skimmer and a pole pushing the elf around? You could, but I don't think it would be the same. An elf can sometimes climb without a rope, and when they do, it uses both arms and legs. An elf can never move across the silt sea without the use of a skimmer, tool-wise.

[musashi]

I'm imagining elves sitting around a campfire having this discussion ... it's very funny.

[LauraMars]

I suspect elves riding mounts/wagons/skimmers is similar to Tuluki nobles sleeping with commoners: extremely unlikely IG, but one of those things players are wont to ignore so their character can be unique/dangerous.  If you just consider it an OOC rule (that overlaps 99.9% with IG trends) then maybe it'll be easier to accept?

It is, actually.  Because we won't be continuing to try and convince people to believe that the entire elven culture has never once in all its thousands of years of Zalanthan history deviated from the cultural/religious belief against riding, sailing, or whatever else.  This is a foolish and illogical argument.  99.9% of 1,000,000 is still 1,000 - that's a lot of elves that have defied cultural norms, and more than 1,000,000 elves have lived and died in the history of Zalanthas.

If we can admit that elves are allowed to defy their culture (betray their tribe, ride a beetle, sail the silt sea), then we can admit that they are a culture that is continuing to evolve in the background, as all cultures throughout all of history (real and imagined) will ALWAYS do without exception.  There will always be people in every culture that are willing to be regarded as pariahs and fools, worthy of mockery or worse, for their beliefs.

The staff have simply stated that players are not allowed to be a part of any kind of elven cultural evolution or be the change they want to see in this case.  No matter how much they might wish to, it is simply against the rules to consider it.  And this is a lot easier to swallow than expecting players to believe that 100% of elves will not think about riding or sailing or rolling on library ladders, or similarly trying to justify the conjectural shitstorm Musashi mentioned by contorting oneself through insane logical hoops.

[musashi]

Just to fuck with your chart some more Taven ... ok so ... if it's an object and it lets an elf do something they could not normally do on their own AND they cannot use their legs ... then they would not do it.

Fabulous. No more archery for elves. 

[Taven]

I'd like to thank Taven for taking the time to respond in detail to all my questions and not dismissing them as a joke.

Sure thing.

You've given some of the most descriptive arguments on why an elf would distinguish tools differently from mounts. The argument seems to be that if a tool assists the natural abilities of the elf (climbing or running, for climbing gloves or running shoes), then it is considered acceptable. Using physical muscles are also a requirement for the tool to be considered acceptable.

So basically, if someone were to create silt-skis or silt-snowshoes that allowed someone to walk on silt under their own power, could we say that this would be acceptable? The magic hover-stone in the boots idea was dismissed as unacceptable for an elf to use, and is that because the elf doesn't need to move their legs while floating?

If an elf created a glider where they had to flap their arms to keep aloft, using their arm muscles to control their descent, would this also be acceptable? Or is it not acceptable because elves can't fly without assistance? Elves can't walk on silt without assistance, either. And elves can't climb some surfaces without a rope, either.

I am basing this on the second table of this post:

Silt Skis	Object does allow exertion of legs	Makes silt-walking possible	Yes
Glider	Object does not allow exertion of legs	Makes flying possible	No

So let's take three things an elf can't do naturally: 1) Climb a sheer vertical surface 2) Run across silt 3) Fly in the air And then we look at the tools that could make this possible (assuming these items all exist, for the sake of better understanding the elven mentality, and not to get them coded as items): 1) A rope 2) Silt-skis/silt-snowshoes 3) Arm-powered glider If #1 is ok but #2 and #3 are not, then I feel we need a better explanation as to why that is. If all three points are considered acceptable, then I think we're one step closer to understanding the elven mentality of why they won't "ride" transportation. If we take the silly, meant-as-a-joke comments by Nyr/MeTekillot about skimmer paddle boats as truth, then the answer is that if elves have a leg-powered glider, it'd be fine. I'm not completely sold on that, since it still relies on a complex tool to make something otherwise impossible possible. At least in the case of a rope, it's a simple tool, and even if it is stolen, it's something that you could buy (or steal) again very easily. I feel like relying on a glider has the problem where an elf is using a machine too much. At what point is elven pride offended by the use of a tool? Unless the glider is a specialty item of the tribe, that may be the answer. Another consideration on elves and flying is if a non-magick elf would even want to fly. Maybe the key there is that if the elf can't get there by it's legs or own power, it wouldn't want to anyway. (Yes, I realize this will bring up the rope argument again).

[Taven]

Just to fuck with your chart some more Taven ... ok so ... if it's an object and it lets an elf do something they could not normally do on their own AND they cannot use their legs ... then they would not do it.

Fabulous. No more archery for elves.  

Oh, you!

You're just being silly now. Arrows have nothing to do with the movement of elves.

However, I would say the answer to "Would an elf be shot out of a cannon willingly?" (or attached to a ballista bolt that was shot) as a form of movement is NO.

Hope that helps!  

[LauraMars]

Apparently there's a .1% chance an elf would agree to be shot out of a cannon for the purposes of movement.

There is a 100% chance that this elf will never be a player character.

[RogueGunslinger]

I suspect elves riding mounts/wagons/skimmers is similar to Tuluki nobles sleeping with commoners: extremely unlikely IG, but one of those things players are wont to ignore so their character can be unique/dangerous.  If you just consider it an OOC rule (that overlaps 99.9% with IG trends) then maybe it'll be easier to accept?

It is, actually.  Because we won't be continuing to try and convince people to believe that the entire elven culture has never once in all its thousands of years of Zalanthan history deviated from the cultural/religious belief against riding, sailing, or whatever else.  This is a foolish and illogical argument.  99.9% of 1,000,000 is still 1,000 - that's a lot of elves that have defied cultural norms, and more than 1,000,000 elves have lived and died in the history of Zalanthas.

If we can admit that elves are allowed to defy their culture (betray their tribe, ride a beetle, sail the silt sea), then we can admit that they are a culture that is continuing to evolve in the background, as all cultures throughout all of history (real and imagined) will ALWAYS do without exception.  There will always be people in every culture that are willing to be regarded as pariahs and fools, worthy of mockery or worse, for their beliefs.

The staff have simply stated that players are not allowed to be a part of any kind of elven cultural evolution or be the change they want to see in this case.  No matter how much they might wish to, it is simply against the rules to consider it.  And this is a lot easier to swallow than expecting players to believe that 100% of elves will not think about riding or sailing or rolling on library ladders, or similarly trying to justify the conjectural shitstorm Musashi mentioned by contorting oneself through insane logical hoops.

When phrased this way it makes me think maybe we should put it in roleplay documentation that zalanthans are always 100% disgusted/fearful of magickers/breed/mutants. Then maybe people wouldn't fuck that up so much by trying to play the exception to the docs.

[MeTekillot]

But magickers are so hot and smooth skinned

[musashi]

Yes. It was tongue in cheek. However, the substance there being: why let the arrow cover the distance and do the killing for you when you have a perfectly good set of legs to carry you over there and do it yourself?

And while we're being silly ... Ok so as long as I pilot the skimmer with my feet ... we're a-ok yes? Glorious! 

[Taven]

I suspect elves riding mounts/wagons/skimmers is similar to Tuluki nobles sleeping with commoners: extremely unlikely IG, but one of those things players are wont to ignore so their character can be unique/dangerous.  If you just consider it an OOC rule (that overlaps 99.9% with IG trends) then maybe it'll be easier to accept?

It is, actually.  Because we won't be continuing to try and convince people to believe that the entire elven culture has never once in all its thousands of years of Zalanthan history deviated from the cultural/religious belief against riding, sailing, or whatever else.  This is a foolish and illogical argument.  99.9% of 1,000,000 is still 1,000 - that's a lot of elves that have defied cultural norms, and more than 1,000,000 elves have lived and died in the history of Zalanthas.

If we can admit that elves are allowed to defy their culture (betray their tribe, ride a beetle, sail the silt sea), then we can admit that they are a culture that is continuing to evolve in the background, as all cultures throughout all of history (real and imagined) will ALWAYS do without exception.  There will always be people in every culture that are willing to be regarded as pariahs and fools, worthy of mockery or worse, for their beliefs.

The staff have simply stated that players are not allowed to be a part of any kind of elven cultural evolution or be the change they want to see in this case.  No matter how much they might wish to, it is simply against the rules to consider it.  And this is a lot easier to swallow than expecting players to believe that 100% of elves will not think about riding or sailing or rolling on library ladders, or similarly trying to justify the conjectural shitstorm Musashi mentioned by contorting oneself through insane logical hoops.

Two things:

First -

I understand what you're saying about the evolution of elven culture. There is a point where we have to agree that Armageddon is a game, and that the reason it is this way is because it's just that way. I can kind of understand staff's view on this though, because once you let one elf do something crazy, there's the risk that a lot of people are going to want to be special snowflakes. At that point in time, it would make the elven documentation redundant.

Second -

I like trying to think of the IC reasons for things. I think it's a worthy challenge to try and understand the whys. I think my arguments haven't been too farfetched so far (someone else besides me does understand them, right?). I also think that I don't have all of the answers; and I don't claim to. At the very least, the staff discussion thread will have lots of things to think about. By discussing it, it makes people think more about it and the reason. And that, that is always a worthy goal.

[LauraMars]

I suspect elves riding mounts/wagons/skimmers is similar to Tuluki nobles sleeping with commoners: extremely unlikely IG, but one of those things players are wont to ignore so their character can be unique/dangerous.  If you just consider it an OOC rule (that overlaps 99.9% with IG trends) then maybe it'll be easier to accept?

It is, actually.  Because we won't be continuing to try and convince people to believe that the entire elven culture has never once in all its thousands of years of Zalanthan history deviated from the cultural/religious belief against riding, sailing, or whatever else.  This is a foolish and illogical argument.  99.9% of 1,000,000 is still 1,000 - that's a lot of elves that have defied cultural norms, and more than 1,000,000 elves have lived and died in the history of Zalanthas.

If we can admit that elves are allowed to defy their culture (betray their tribe, ride a beetle, sail the silt sea), then we can admit that they are a culture that is continuing to evolve in the background, as all cultures throughout all of history (real and imagined) will ALWAYS do without exception.  There will always be people in every culture that are willing to be regarded as pariahs and fools, worthy of mockery or worse, for their beliefs.

The staff have simply stated that players are not allowed to be a part of any kind of elven cultural evolution or be the change they want to see in this case.  No matter how much they might wish to, it is simply against the rules to consider it.  And this is a lot easier to swallow than expecting players to believe that 100% of elves will not think about riding or sailing or rolling on library ladders, or similarly trying to justify the conjectural shitstorm Musashi mentioned by contorting oneself through insane logical hoops.

When phrased this way it makes me think maybe we should put it in roleplay documentation that zalanthans are always 100% disgusted/fearful of magickers/breed/mutants. Then maybe people wouldn't fuck that up so much by trying to play the exception to the docs.

Maybe we could phrase it as 100% of player characters will be disgusted by and fearful of magickers, breeds, and mutants - and 99.9% of the Zalanthan population will be, too - but the roles playing the exceptions are reserved for the virtual population.

[Taven]

Yes. It was tongue in cheek. However, the substance there being: why let the arrow cover the distance and do the killing for you when you have a perfectly good set of legs to carry you over there and do it yourself?

I don't think the distance is the issue, killing the creature is. An elf already used its legs to locate and stalk said beastie, so it isn't a matter of proving that it needs to walk the extra room or two to kill it. In fact, it's going to walk there anyway when the thing is dead, to skin it. Thus, the arrow is not being relied on for movement. It's being relied on to kill something.

[racurtne]

I suspect elves riding mounts/wagons/skimmers is similar to Tuluki nobles sleeping with commoners: extremely unlikely IG, but one of those things players are wont to ignore so their character can be unique/dangerous.  If you just consider it an OOC rule (that overlaps 99.9% with IG trends) then maybe it'll be easier to accept?

It is, actually.  Because we won't be continuing to try and convince people to believe that the entire elven culture has never once in all its thousands of years of Zalanthan history deviated from the cultural/religious belief against riding, sailing, or whatever else.  This is a foolish and illogical argument.  99.9% of 1,000,000 is still 1,000 - that's a lot of elves that have defied cultural norms, and more than 1,000,000 elves have lived and died in the history of Zalanthas.

If we can admit that elves are allowed to defy their culture (betray their tribe, ride a beetle, sail the silt sea), then we can admit that they are a culture that is continuing to evolve in the background, as all cultures throughout all of history (real and imagined) will ALWAYS do without exception.  There will always be people in every culture that are willing to be regarded as pariahs and fools, worthy of mockery or worse, for their beliefs.

The staff have simply stated that players are not allowed to be a part of any kind of elven cultural evolution or be the change they want to see in this case.  No matter how much they might wish to, it is simply against the rules to consider it.  And this is a lot easier to swallow than expecting players to believe that 100% of elves will not think about riding or sailing or rolling on library ladders, or similarly trying to justify the conjectural shitstorm Musashi mentioned by contorting oneself through insane logical hoops.

Two things:

First -

I understand what you're saying about the evolution of elven culture. There is a point where we have to agree that Armageddon is a game, and that the reason it is this way is because it's just that way. I can kind of understand staff's view on this though, because once you let one elf do something crazy, there's the risk that a lot of people are going to want to be special snowflakes. At that point in time, it would make the elven documentation redundant.

Second -

I like trying to think of the IC reasons for things. I think it's a worthy challenge to try and understand the whys. I think my arguments haven't been too farfetched so far (someone else besides me does understand them, right?). I also think that I don't have all of the answers; and I don't claim to. At the very least, the staff discussion thread will have lots of things to think about. By discussing it, it makes people think more about it and the reason. And that, that is always a worthy goal.

I get your arguments, but I think they are needlessly complicated. To me it was always just that they have to travel under their own muscle power. That means, ropes and other tools are fine because they are still moving themselves through some internal reservoir of energy. Silt skimmers are not being powered by elven leg-power and are therefore taboo. (They use wind and stuff right?) No external power can be used to move them. Easy enough, right?

I think Flintstone cars are the obvious solution to elven mobility problems.  

[racurtne]

Ooops, realized I didn't account for magic. Then let me edit that...