Progression of desert-elven role availabilty

[Incognito]

Over the past few years, there have been progressive changes in the desert-elf roles available to the players.

• There was a time when a player could app a d-elf role, and pick a coded (active OR inactive tribe) or a virtual tribe of their own imagination.
• A while later, the option to pick virtual tribes was removed, and a player had to pick a coded tribe.
• Then came the change where all d-elf magicker apps had to be pre-approved.
• Now, all d-elf apps have to be pre-approved, AND, they have to compulsorily be in the 2 tribes that are open for play.

I am sure Staff has reasons for restricting desert-elven roles. Having said that, and without going into the nitty-gritty of the why's and wherefores, could we possibly have some more options opened (either active or virtual) up for desert-elven tribes/clans? And more importantly, could non-magicker roles be made available as direct (not pre-approved) once again please?

If there is an issue with monitoring and managing multiple desert-elven tribes by Staff members, perhaps something along the lines of a disclaimer would help - i.e. Please note - if you apply for a role in any of the virtual tribes (not monitored by Staff as per the GDB status), then you will get no Staff support for your role whatsoever - you have been warned.

If there is an issue with too many PCs apping for a single tribe (and thereby creating an imbalance), perhaps Staff could put a cap on the number of active players in each tribe - and I don't say this lightly, coz I am sure this would be a difficult and cumbersome parameter to monitor in itself.

It's just that previously, apping for d-elves was such a breeze, that a player with the requisite Karma could just app for a role on the fly. And there were considerably more options too. Now it seems that the entire desert-elven population of players must be content with playing in a small selection of roles within a very restricted selection of tribes.

The unique and extremely varied and active inter-tribal dynamic in the desert-elf population has always been something that has been Arm's solid plus point and definitely a part of the game's heritage that we shouldn't dilute.

Current Status of desert-elf tribes/clans:

Akei'Ta Var - Closed
Blackwing Tribe - Closed
Dune Stalkers - Closed
Sand Jakhals - Closed
Soh Lanah Kah - Open
Sun Runners - Open
Siltwinds - Closed (Doesn't exist anymore - not even virtually)

[Marauder Moe]

I always assumed it was a lack of interest in delf characters that lead to the reduction.  If the two available clans became filled to the brim with players, I'd imagine they might open more tribes.

[Nyr]

Blackwing hasn't been open for players in many years; back when it was open to players it was prone to abuse due to special coded privileges given the clan members.
The Dune Stalkers had other reasons to be closed; potentially this is a find out IC thing.
The Red Fangs were eliminated IC.
The Siltwinds were eliminated IC.
The Sand Jakhals do not have an actual coded camp.
The Akei'Ta Var are isolated, and even isolated from the other desert elf tribes in the game.

We do not allow anyone to play desert elf roles except in tribes that are codedly supported and currently open.   Previously we would have people play desert elf roles that were part of a virtual tribe.  They never communicated with staff.  They essentially were solo elves.  Some of them would coordinate with each other to play in a player-created tribe.  This was a lot of work to manage and was not a fair system, nor did it properly enforce a tribal mentality among said elves, nor was there any oversight by staff in a lot of cases.  We moved to only allowing coded tribes after some point in the mid 2000's.  After that we still had quite a few desert elf tribes scattered here and there, isolating the playerbase.  Eventually (and this was clarified for other clans as well) we restricted that to only tribes that were "open."

We also have a fairly low cap on how many PC magickers should exist in a tribe (desert elf or no).  This is partially for balance, but partially to reinforce the realism of the gameworld.  There should be a reasonable proportion of magickers to mundanes in any given tribe.  We are not going to change that policy.  We do have a cap on how many PCs can play in either of the available desert elf tribes.  To reinforce that cap, we do have to have desert elf characters "pre-approved" in advance so that we know how many are actively playing.  We are not going to change that policy, either.

Are the two tribes currently "full to bursting?"  Not really, no.  From time to time they are full and we occasionally turn people away.  We think they are at the level they should be right now, at least.

If the idea is to have a lot of variety among desert elf tribes, and to allow anyone with 1 karma to play a desert elf whenever they want to, and allow anyone with any karma above 2 karma to make desert elf magickers whenever they want to, we are not fulfilling that ideal.  This isn't the vision of the staff.

If the idea is to promote interaction between desert elf tribes as well as the rest of the Known World when it makes sense (and also to restrict the amount of isolated roles that exist in the game), we are fulfilling that ideal.  This is closer to the staff's vision on this.

There may be room for another tribe, but that is neither here nor there--it will still involve an overall expected cap from staff on PC tribe numbers and (if applicable) an overall expected cap on PC magickers.  We take a very careful look nowadays before opening any particular clan, calling for roles, and the like.

[spicemustflow]

I think that the current tribes are too close to one another. We need another tribe that operates in Vrun Driath or even better, salt flats and has reasonable freedom to travel, trade and raid.

I'm also curious why don't you open Blackwing and maybe make it a pre-app tribe only, to offset their coded perks. Which, I hope don't amount to much outside a certain area.

[spicemustflow]

oh, also this

The Sand Jakhals do not have an actual coded camp.

isn't really a problem (imo of course). Fangs didn't have the coded camp and were awesome to play. The making of the camp was even better.

[Incognito]

We do not allow anyone to play desert elf roles except in tribes that are codedly supported and currently open.   Previously we would have people play desert elf roles that were part of a virtual tribe.  They never communicated with staff.  They essentially were solo elves.  Some of them would coordinate with each other to play in a player-created tribe.  This was a lot of work to manage and was not a fair system, nor did it properly enforce a tribal mentality among said elves, nor was there any oversight by staff in a lot of cases.  We moved to only allowing coded tribes after some point in the mid 2000's.  After that we still had quite a few desert elf tribes scattered here and there, isolating the playerbase.  Eventually (and this was clarified for other clans as well) we restricted that to only tribes that were "open."

We also have a fairly low cap on how many PC magickers should exist in a tribe (desert elf or no).  This is partially for balance, but partially to reinforce the realism of the gameworld.  There should be a reasonable proportion of magickers to mundanes in any given tribe.  We are not going to change that policy.  We do have a cap on how many PCs can play in either of the available desert elf tribes.  To reinforce that cap, we do have to have desert elf characters "pre-approved" in advance so that we know how many are actively playing.  We are not going to change that policy, either.

Thank you Nyr, for the detailed post. It helps us as players understand where Staff is coming from, on this issue.

My basis for writing the initial post stems from the fact that the SLK is a non-magicker tribe, and the SR (usually) only has some restricted magick guilds allowed.

Whenever the room for another coded tribe DOES open up, could Staff please consider an option which would accept apps for the magick guilds that the SR does not, so that the entire spectrum of magickal guilds are once again open for desert-elven roleplay? That's all that can be said about the matter, without going into IC specifics I guess.

[Nyr]

oh, also this

The Sand Jakhals do not have an actual coded camp.

isn't really a problem (imo of course). Fangs didn't have the coded camp and were awesome to play. The making of the camp was even better.

The Red Fangs did indeed have a coded camp and also eventually had a script set up to outfit them similar to other tribes in-game.  In contrast, there are no Sand Jakhal NPCs, no items for them, nothing.  That is what I mean by "coded camp," not just "a place where you can point while in the Place of Kings in order to get codedly tribed up and outfitted."  You'd need a place to start with your other tribe members.  All of that would have to be built.  That really seems unlikely.

I'm also curious why don't you open Blackwing and maybe make it a pre-app tribe only, to offset their coded perks. Which, I hope don't amount to much outside a certain area.

Long answer:  it's not just a matter of coded perks and abuse.  Suffice it to say that Blackwing is best left virtual until such a time that staff deems it appropriate to make it available for players with the right modifications.

Short answer:  'cause it's not simple.

Whenever the room for another coded tribe DOES open up, could Staff please consider an option which would accept apps for the magick guilds that the SR does not, so that the entire spectrum of magickal guilds are once again open for desert-elven roleplay? That's all that can be said about the matter, without going into IC specifics I guess.

We have taken that into account in the past and will take it into account for the future, never fear. 

[Twilight]

It would be cool to use the other coded one that has never been used.   Tweaks could be made to the magickal side of things conform to Incognito's idea and add in something unique even.

[Nyr]

It would be cool to use the other coded one that has never been used.   Tweaks could be made to the magickal side of things conform to Incognito's idea and add in something unique even.

Which one?

[Twilight]

Nyr, I sent an email instead of posting here.  Not sure what is public.

[Gunnerblaster]

oh, also this

The Sand Jakhals do not have an actual coded camp.

isn't really a problem (imo of course). Fangs didn't have the coded camp and were awesome to play. The making of the camp was even better.

The Red Fangs did indeed have a coded camp and also eventually had a script set up to outfit them similar to other tribes in-game.  In contrast, there are no Sand Jakhal NPCs, no items for them, nothing.  That is what I mean by "coded camp," not just "a place where you can point while in the Place of Kings in order to get codedly tribed up and outfitted."  You'd need a place to start with your other tribe members.  All of that would have to be built.  That really seems unlikely.

As tacky as it sounds, couldn't a lot of the coding used for the now-extinct Red Fangs simply be copy/pasted, in a sense, and adjusted slightly to fit the Sand Jakhals?

AmandaGreatHouse has an incredible character generator - So just mix-mash a few desert elves and stuff...

God I wish I had the knowledge to be a coder

[Nyr]

Sure, it's possible.  It's not really a project for right now, however!

[X-D]

To me, a problem is that the two open tribes represent 2 rather narrow extremes of thought/tribal life etc etc.

Now maybe it is staffs method of making sure only people with a certain very narrow mindset of play for delves gets them...And I suppose if that is the way they want it...more power to you.

But really, the rest of the game world would benefit from there being 1-2 more. (BTW, I don't care if there is or isn't delf mages...in fact, if I was pushed, I would have to say I prefer none.)

Creating a new tribe is not all that hard, least till the coded side, but even that should not be that hard. Docs and such, Meh, there are many talented players who would jump at the chance to be in on writing up in depth docs to a new tribe or two. Simply put out a call, say This is the kind of mindset we want for this tribe...who wants to help?

I think that the game could use an actual trading tribe...basically blackwing lite.

And an actual nomad tribe, not Red fang raidery elves, or SLK xenophobe raiders...maybe even more entertainers and thief types...like REAL world gypsies. I'd help on those docs.

Hell, they don't even have to all be open at the same time, if staff thinks that 2 tribes is enough for the game, rotate. Give others, who like to play delves a chance to play.

Though I think there is room for at least 3 at a time and that way when you rotate you need only close 1 to open the next.

[Nyr]

There will always be a disconnect between what players want and what staff wants.  In between the two is what staff is willing to work on, but currently is unable to do (due to existing work, focus on other areas, etc).  Even with player assistance there is a bottleneck of staff work that is not insignificant, despite any claims that it is not all that hard to code up a tribe and give it documentation.  (I know you weren't saying it is a cakewalk, but we do apply a lot more review to tribal documentation these days--you might notice that in any of the revamped tribes out there.)

It's safe to say that we're in between the two on this (hence me saying it's possible but it's not really a project for right now).  You can find out the rest IC when appropriate.  If we need folks to help out we definitely will call for it!

[BleakOne]

Seems that 2 tribes is working fine right now to me. I don't see what adding another tribe we do, except maybe increase the number of raiders for a short while.

[RogueGunslinger]

Seems that 2 tribes is working fine right now to me. I don't see what adding another tribe we do, except maybe increase the number of raiders for a short while.

I think a lot of people have a problem with them basically being in their own little world with little incentive to interact with others outside of it. Adding a new tribe in a different area I think woould be really cool.

Salt-flat elves sound fucking wicked.

[BleakOne]

Salt-flat elves sound fucking wicked.

I think we had something very similar. It did not end happily. 

[gfair]

If there was one d-elf tribe I would want to see back again, it would be ATV, I would app one in a heartbeat if they became available again.  So much fun, such an interesting tribe, and an amazing location.  But the two available now are totally acceptable and I'm ok with that remaining the same, better increased interaction than not.

[Bushranger]

My basis for writing the initial post stems from the fact that the SLK is a non-magicker tribe, and the SR (usually) only has some restricted magick guilds allowed.

I understand that this is the same for human tribes, none of them allow (usually) the full range of magick guilds. Is there some reason in elven psychology I'm not understanding that requires a tribe available supporting all magick types? Dwarf don't even have a single tribal option anymore, not even for mundanes.

Sure, you can create (for example) a human nilazi/nomad in regular character creation as some sort of tribal exile. It might take a special application to have a similar desert elf even though you have the karma for it. I figure that's alright since a desert elf has more psychological bent towards tribe and family than a human (and I'm sure a human nilazi/nomad application in the regular character creation queue will receive a detailed review). (Also feel free to replace Nilazi with any of the other /restricted/ magick guilds - for either elf or human)

All that is just for tribal (DE/Human/Dwarf) magickers. As to the rest of the things discussed in the thread I am happy either way. The two tribes open now are great. Would also be great to have ATV or Sand Jakhals around sometime.

[armandhammer]

Does a progression of elven role availability make sense to anyone else but me, if this is the prescribed route for desert elves?

Isn't tribe dependency rule number one for both races?

Edit: This sounds like a new thread, sorry. Please move if deemed appropriate.

[gfair]

Does a progression of elven role availability make sense to anyone else but me, if this is the prescribed route for desert elves?

If by progression you mean have a tiered karma structure for roles (i.e. Blackwing = Karma 4, SunRunners = Karma 1, SLK Karma 2, etc) then that sounds like a great way for everybody to be happy and add back some options.

[Calavera]

• Now, all d-elf apps have to be pre-approved, AND, they have to compulsorily be in the 2 tribes that are open for play.

I'm not trying to focus on this and ignore the rest of your post, Incognito, because I think you brought up some good and valid points. However, I just wanted to make sure everybody knows that this is not the case.

You don't need special staff pre-approval to play a desert elf as long as you have one karma! However, if the tribe you want to app into already has seven or eight PCs in it, we will reject the app and ask you to check in later with the request tool.

This isn't done because we want to limit the amount of desert elves in the game so much as because we need to take PC population vs. virtual population into account for the desert elf political landscape. Everyone who's played a d-elf knows that Pah politics can be just as intricate and touchy as the most bloodthirsty city kind, and this is difficult to portray properly in the game when player populations in one hand get out of control.

For example, the Soh Lanah Kah are actually a fairly small tribe. The Blackwing are massive. Let's say we had SLK and Blackwing open at the same time, and for whatever reason, SLK were way more popular with PCs than Blackwing at that time.

If SLK had 14 active PCs, half of which were incredibly long lived and powerful, and the Blackwing had three, that could create some unrealistic RP that would require a lot of staff intervention. If, say, the SLK characters started harassing the Blackwing ones or raiding them or sneaking into the Blackwing Outpost and murdering NPCs, that would be awkward. If the virtual world were being properly represented, the larger tribes would absolutely curbstomp the smaller ones, especially if their behaviour was egregious and offensive enough.

By limiting the amount of PCs that each tribe can have, we can better keep an eye on making sure that there aren't major power disparities that contradict the documentation, which unfortunately is something that has happened even recently in the past.

I didn't mean to write this as a big ol' diatribe or as an argument against what Incognito is saying, but I hope that folks can see where we're coming from in regards to limiting the amount of desert elves in each tribe at any given time.

And again, just to reiterate: you don't need to be pre-approved by staff to play your desert elf unless the following apply:

• You do not have one karma and wish to special app one.
• You want to play a desert elf magicker.
• You want some aspect of your app to differ from normal, i.e. extended subguild, extra skills, starting as a Ranna, etc.
• You put an app in the queue and were rejected because there's already a million dudes in your wanted tribe. Even then, you don't have to go to the request tool--you can just chuck your app back in the queue a few days or a week or whatever later and we'll approve it if there's space.

The game of balancing what clans to open and what clans to close is like a minigame unto itself within Armageddon, and back before I was on staff, I used to cry bullshit pretty much every time a beloved clan of mine was closed. However, now that I've seen what a careful balancing act it is on the other side of the curtain, I have a lot more appreciation for just how difficult these decisions are to make.

Feel free to keep making suggestions, because we do listen, but any changes will have to be considered carefully before they're acted upon because we don't want to end up in a situation where we've got four desert elf tribes open and each one only has one or two people. We also don't want a situation where we have four desert elf tribes open and three have one person and the fourth has twenty.

[spicemustflow]

The Red Fangs did indeed have a coded camp and also eventually had a script set up to outfit them similar to other tribes in-game.  In contrast, there are no Sand Jakhal NPCs, no items for them, nothing.  That is what I mean by "coded camp," not just "a place where you can point while in the Place of Kings in order to get codedly tribed up and outfitted."  You'd need a place to start with your other tribe members.  All of that would have to be built.  That really seems unlikely.

There was definitely a time when the Red Fangs were starting in Blackwing outpost without receiving any of the clan specific items apart from two ritual scars (which you had to wish for).

What I'm saying is: a tribe doesn't have to be pointable, to have specific gear or whatever, just give us one page of documentation, one or two high up NPCs (who'll virtually live in a virtual camp somewhere) point us to Blackwing and the fun starts. It worked for the Fangs long before Tive's tent was added to the world. It also contributed to the general underdog feeling that the old Fangs had.

I love X-D's idea of a free roaming gypsy-elf tribe.

[HavokBlue]

Desert elf roles are probably my favorite in the game after the Labyrinth, and I love the Soh to death, but the nature of their documentation and the fact that there is only one other active elven tribe in the Pah really puts a cap on the sort of extensive, cool plots you can get into. There are only so many times you can hash out some sort of peace treaty or disagreement about outsiders plot with each new band of elven PCs before it gets mundane and tiring.

I know staff have their own idea of how the game should be and I've said this a few times already, but I really think some sort of raiding elven tribe that could travel or operated out of the Red Desert/flats would add a lot to the world. Giving them the ability to travel about the Known would give the Pah another way to interact with the rest of the world and it would add some sort of player presence to these deserted areas.

Hell, any tribe/clan operating out of the Red Desert would be neat. For such an iconic part of the game world, that place feels so barren and lifeless (and not in the good way).

[Incognito]

My basis for writing the initial post stems from the fact that the SLK is a non-magicker tribe, and the SR (usually) only has some restricted magick guilds allowed.

I understand that this is the same for human tribes, none of them allow (usually) the full range of magick guilds. Is there some reason in elven psychology I'm not understanding that requires a tribe available supporting all magick types? Dwarf don't even have a single tribal option anymore, not even for mundanes.

Sure, you can create (for example) a human nilazi/nomad in regular character creation as some sort of tribal exile. It might take a special application to have a similar desert elf even though you have the karma for it. I figure that's alright since a desert elf has more psychological bent towards tribe and family than a human (and I'm sure a human nilazi/nomad application in the regular character creation queue will receive a detailed review). (Also feel free to replace Nilazi with any of the other /restricted/ magick guilds - for either elf or human)

All that is just for tribal (DE/Human/Dwarf) magickers. As to the rest of the things discussed in the thread I am happy either way. The two tribes open now are great. Would also be great to have ATV or Sand Jakhals around sometime.

There's no elven psychology that would support a tribe that accepts all magick types. Hence the request to open up atleast one more tribe which would accept those magic guilds that the existing (currently open for play) elven tribe(s) actively reject. This would allow players to play the entire range of magickal guilds in different d-elf tribes.

As things stand, if you app'ed certain magick guilds as a d-elf role in the 2 tribes that are currently available, your app would most likely get rejected because your role is not allowed by the documentation/background of the currently-open tribe(s). The only way to remedy this situation, and have all the magick guilds available for d-elf roleplay, would be to open up another tribe/clan, which accepts those guilds which the current ones do not.

I'm sorry if I sound vague or long-winded, but unfortunately it can't be spelt out more clearly without going into IC info.

(Staff is already aware of this issue (as you can note from Nyr's post), and one can only wait and watch until the lacuna gets remedied.)

As a sidenote - the original spread of the d-elf tribes and their individual acceptance preferences for various magickal guilds was awesome, coz each tribe accepted certain guilds, and that made things extremely interesting in the Pah. Also this was possibly why certain tribes were hated more than others....

Finally, as far as human and dwarven tribes are concerned - you're right - they have their own restrictions too - however, you can always make unclanned humans or dwarves of any magickal guild you prefer. However, as things stand, this is not the case with desert elves. You can ONLY play a few magickal guilds right now, simply because you cannot app unclanned or virtually-tribed d-elf roles.