PC Stalls

[Zul]

What do NPC shopkeepers have to do with any of those positives?  

I'm not sure who this was directed at, but I will assume myself.

NPC shopkeepers bear a direct correlation to the positives I listed because they would allow the PC to engage in meaningful conversation/role-play with other players for the purpose of promoting their stall, furthering political intrigue, hiring assassins to take out their competition, etc.

In other words, I think having an NPC help with this equation could promote the tagline of Armageddon: murder, corruption, betrayal.

There was recently *(within the last two years)* a PC who played a character who would routinely hire other PC's to do jobs for him, hire mercenaries to transport him up to certain trading outposts, and sit in the middle of bazaars and sell his wares to other passing PC's. He was by far my favorite dwarf ever.

That's great, but I don't play during peak, so standing in the middle of a bazaar is somewhat out of the question.  

[Kismetic]

I'm curious what happens to your stall and NPC in this scenario when you get assassinated by a GMH/Noble/Templar/Syndicate/Competitor.

[Maso]

I was making the assumption that this would a short term hire...like...an IG day to day thing... so if you died then your shop just wouldn't get set up the next day.

I'm still really torn over this, but also not in a particularly engaged way...like...I don't think it's a big issue and I can see good arguments coming from both sides. I'm not sure the demand is there, if it were, you'd see more people trying to make the most of what they do have already (like aforementioned dwarf did - mega kudos for that, but I think it's probably still too recent to talk about really).

[musashi]

Um, I do believe that the capability for coded PC run shops is already installed in the game; and used to be utilized in the past. There are clans I've been in where probing the old GDB posts, etc, has dug up reference to indy PC's who owned shops in the city states King's Ages' ago.

Assuming that, it would appear as though staff decided to take them out of the picture, yeah? I'd always assumed that was because they wanted shop owning indie PC's to remain a relative rarity in game, on par with indie wagon owners.

But, anyway ... point is I believe that as things currently stand, it's already possible to have a shop with a coded NPC shop keeper and guards hanging out. You just need to strive for it IG.

If the debate going on here is that such a thing shouldn't have to be strived for, but should be far easier to obtain ... whelp, I'm against that. Armageddon's economic system is extremely oppresive and monopolized, so coming up without pre-established political power in said system, should be strive-worthy imo.

[Zul]

Um, I do believe that the capability for coded PC run shops is already installed in the game; and used to be utilized in the past. There are clans I've been in where probing the old GDB posts, etc, has dug up reference to indy PC's who owned shops in the city states King's Ages' ago.

In doing a search on the GDB, I came across a pc known as "Durg" who had a shop in Freils before 2003. That is the only example I could find, so it would seem that this is not necessarily something that is easy/can readily happen.

If the debate going on here is that such a thing shouldn't have to be strived for, but should be far easier to obtain ... whelp, I'm against that. Armageddon's economic system is extremely oppresive and monopolized, so coming up without pre-established political power in said system, should be strive-worthy imo.

Armageddon's economic system can and should be extremely oppressive and hold true to monopolistic ideals, but not to the detriment of the player-base on an OOC level.

I find the current system to be a bit difficult to break into, so to speak, for newer players. I myself have not been around all that long (a year and a half or so, off and on?), and I can say with utmost certainty that working for countless hours off-peak to realize a goal that will more than likely go unnoticed is a bit disheartening, to say the least.

I still feel that having this type of system established will facilitate players and foster in-depth role-play (see my reasons in previous posts. Is this wrong, or in some fashion a bad thing?

[bcw81]

There was recently *(within the last two years)* a PC who played a character who would routinely hire other PC's to do jobs for him, hire mercenaries to transport him up to certain trading outposts, and sit in the middle of bazaars and sell his wares to other passing PC's. He was by far my favorite dwarf ever.

That's great, but I don't play during peak, so standing in the middle of a bazaar is somewhat out of the question.  

If you can't play a trader, then don't play a trader. Isn't that the same for -anything- caused by OOC? If you don't have a good connection, don't go hunt bahamets. If you can't log in during peak, don't play a Byn sergeant (Some may say otherwise to that).

The only thing I can see coming from a system such as the proposed is a bunch of hunters buying out every single one of these created on day one and filling it with their raw goods and never mentioning it except for the rare off handed remark as they sit at the bar or they mudseckz. Anyone who wants to play a -trader- should play a trader with the PC population. That does not mean buying a stall, filling it with everything you make, and sitting in a tavern all day. This would -not- facilitate PC on PC RP, this would -detract- from RP due to players having to go buy from NPC's instead of talking to an actual PC trader.

[BleakOne]

Part of me like the idea of a hireable 'hawker' to sell your goods for you. It would be neat, provided they had a limit to the number of items they could sell at once, and a fee (half the sale price, maybe) once it sold, as well as possibly an up-front fee of a small amount to make it worth their while in case you are selling mounds of unsaleable crapola. To stop spam-selling, perhaps limit people to hiring only one hawker at a time.

As far as discouraging RP, I tend to think Armageddon players go out of their way to get RP usually, so I doubt this idea would do any noticable harm to the game's RP.

The biggest problem I can see for this is that the staff are already very busy making the game more awesome, and this would require quite a bit of coding. The benefit from it, while nice, would also be rather small compared to time consumed in its implementation.

So, in closing, I think this idea would be neat, but not a priority to be added to the game. 

[Zul]

If you can't play a trader, then don't play a trader.

What an asinine comment.

The only thing I can see coming from a system such as the proposed is a bunch of hunters buying out every single one of these created on day one and filling it with their raw goods and never mentioning it except for the rare off handed remark as they sit at the bar or they mudseckz.

Do you truly think so little of the current batch of players populating the game world? This is a very shortsighted and cynical way in which to view Fredd's idea.

That does not mean buying a stall, filling it with everything you make, and sitting in a tavern all day. This would -not- facilitate PC on PC RP, this would -detract- from RP due to players having to go buy from NPC's instead of talking to an actual PC trader.

I must have more faith in the playerbase than yourself, for I feel that setting up a stall will require you to promote it. This means you will need to:

a) engage other characters in conversation at length

b) develop business relationships/partnerships/collaborations

c) conspire to bury your competitors

d) bribe law enforcement officials to back you over your competition

e) hire out professional assassins to either mug/assassinate or destroy the property of your competitors

f) hire out professional guards (i.e. pcs) and use them as muscle to enforce your position and protect your commodities, life and prospective business ventures

g) engage in monopolistic practices wherein you "buyout" your competitors and take over their own stalls, thereby eliminating the level of competition in your area

h) strive to earn the respect of powerful merchant houses and (hopefully) situate yourself in the political arena so as to avoid an untimely death

i) develop promotional sales wherein you offer a discount on one particular item you have in bulk

j) undercut the prices of your competition

k) hire goons to raid and trash the establishment of a competitor (similar to 'e')

l) hire pcs to publicly announce the arrival of sales in and around tavern establishments


All of these things will require interaction with other players.

Those were just a few ideas off the top of my head as to what the implementation of an idea such as this would do to further develop Zalanthas and bring the world closer to a living, breathing world with intriguing consequences, both good and bad.

[bcw81]

a) About what? "Oh, I have this new chitin in my shop now." "Hey, are you a hunter? Bring me your stuff and I'll sell it at my shop."

b) Without that being a hardcoded thing, no one will do that. How would that even work without code? "Hey, I have a business relationship with Kadius, they're going to put their merchandise in my shop instead of putting it in their own." Why?

c) No. Why would an NPC shop facilitate this any more than a PC?

d) What? Are you talking about having templars move NPC guards over to your shop? That's just creating more non-PC on PC RP. Not only that, as someone who has played a character with high enough permissions to move NPC's, I can say it's a bitch and it's annoying.

e) Yes, you can do this without an NPC shop too. No one does it. (Or at least it isn't common enough as is)

f) So you'd hire out PC's to guard your NPC shop that you specifically want so -YOU- don't have to stand there.

g) Uh... That just sounds silly. You are not a Greater Merchant House, you are an independent, if you tried to corner a market on something, one of the GMH's would take notice.

h) That has nothing at all to do with this NPC shop idea, that has to do with your own playability.

i) More than likely any code that will go in will be something akin to the already created NPC shops, meaning you wont dictate prices.

j) Read i. Also understand that your petty indy merchant would get obliterated by the GMH's if he just up and did that.

k) You're just repeating e here, and in case you meant literally destroying the shop... Crimcode.

l) For people like you whom you claim need these shops because you're off peak, you sure do have a lot of hopes for finding players to go do stuff for you.

Just repeat here, why can't you do all of this already with an indy merchant right now?

[musashi]

In doing a search on the GDB, I came across a pc known as "Durg" who had a shop in Freils before 2003. That is the only example I could find, so it would seem that this is not necessarily something that is easy/can readily happen.

Armageddon's economic system can and should be extremely oppressive and hold true to monopolistic ideals, but not to the detriment of the player-base on an OOC level.

I find the current system to be a bit difficult to break into, so to speak, for newer players. I myself have not been around all that long (a year and a half or so, off and on?), and I can say with utmost certainty that working for countless hours off-peak to realize a goal that will more than likely go unnoticed is a bit disheartening, to say the least.

I still feel that having this type of system established will facilitate players and foster in-depth role-play (see my reasons in previous posts. Is this wrong, or in some fashion a bad thing?

I didn't say it was readily available to do. I said I believed the code for it was already made, but not currently utilized. There are more examples than just the one you found but you'd need to play in clans that have long histories to find them in all likelihood. It used to be somewhat common. Now it's not.

I think wanting to enforce the economic setting as displayed in the docs was likely the reason for the change. Though I admit I'm guessing there.

My point is that I don't think owning a shop should be as commonplace as renting an apartment. It should be rare. Because the game world is set in such a way that shop ownership outside of the Merchant Houses is all but unheard of. Those are long odds one has to beat in order to get a shop in one of the city states and not be crushed by the resident powers that be.

[Zul]

a) About what? "Oh, I have this new chitin in my shop now." "Hey, are you a hunter? Bring me your stuff and I'll sell it at my shop."

Another asinine and shortsighted view at how events would unfold. I do not feel inclined to offer much more of a response to this.

b) Without that being a hardcoded thing, no one will do that. How would that even work without code? "Hey, I have a business relationship with Kadius, they're going to put their merchandise in my shop instead of putting it in their own." Why?

By "partnership" I in no way meant that great merchant houses would be inclined to place their wares in your shop. There are other ways to view how a business relationship might unfold/progress.

c) No. Why would an NPC shop facilitate this any more than a PC?

In this point, the stall would serve as the catalyst to encourage players to illustrate the true dynamic of Armageddon: murder, corruption, betrayal.

d) What? Are you talking about having templars move NPC guards over to your shop? That's just creating more non-PC on PC RP. Not only that, as someone who has played a character with high enough permissions to move NPC's, I can say it's a bitch and it's annoying.

No, I am not talking about having templars moving NPC guards to protect your shop. Think of it like a bribe: you bribe law  enforcement officials, and if there is a disagreement or spat between yourself and competition, they will side with you over your competitor. Greased palms are happy palms.

e) Yes, you can do this without an NPC shop too. No one does it. (Or at least it isn't common enough as is)

It matters not whether people actively do so or not. I was merely offering a reason as to why having the stall would promote intrigue. Players would now have another reason to want to hire/use assassins.

Furthermore, to make a blanket statement such as "no one does it" is - again - a bit obtuse.

f) So you'd hire out PC's to guard your NPC shop that you specifically want so -YOU- don't have to stand there.

Quit the cynic today, aren't we? No, I wouldn't aspire to employ this characters on account of my laziness, but rather to give them something to do and add further depth and colour to the world.

g) Uh... That just sounds silly. You are not a Greater Merchant House, you are an independent, if you tried to corner a market on something, one of the GMH's would take notice.

Albeit on a much smaller level. See 'h'.

h) That has nothing at all to do with this NPC shop idea, that has to do with your own playability.

Yes, it has everything to do with the NPC shop idea. I don't feel this needs be expounded upon. Independent merchants would have every reason to keep great merchant houses appeased. Think on it.

i) More than likely any code that will go in will be something akin to the already created NPC shops, meaning you wont dictate prices.

Very well, so long as this idea is picked up.

j) Read i. Also understand that your petty indy merchant would get obliterated by the GMH's if he just up and did that.

So what? Therein lies an additional layer of intrigue. It takes a bit of savvy to do something like this without dying, but it can be done.

k) You're just repeating e here, and in case you meant literally destroying the shop... Crimcode.

I'm aware it's a bit redundant, hence the "similar to 'e' statement". I also did not mean literal destruction using code. As I understand it such is not currently possible. Rather, I'd promote simple emotes through a mini-rpt.

l) For people like you whom you claim need these shops because you're off peak, you sure do have a lot of hopes for finding players to go do stuff for you.

I'm not sure if I should take offense to the "people like you" comment, though I'll refrain from responding directly to that and simply counter with:

This idea is not about having players do things for me, but rather the creation of new avenues of roleplay, intrigue, plot lines, etc.

Just repeat here, why can't you do all of this already with an indy merchant right now?

Ah, there we go. /thread

[Zul]

The game world is set in such a way that shop ownership outside of the Merchant Houses is all but unheard of.

And all of the independent shops in Tuluk, Luir's, Allanak, Red Storm and Cenyr are...?

Please note that I'm not advocating loading up a slew of empty stalls for use. Rather, I'm more of the opinion that 5 stalls for each city-state and 3 stalls or less for the other outposts is more than fair and certainly not enough to be "crushed by the powers that be".

[musashi]

Please investigate who actually owns those shops before you declare them independent. You'll be surprised how long the GMH's arms collectively are.

[Zul]

Please investigate who actually owns those shops before you declare them independent. You'll be surprised how long the GMH's arms collectively are.

Fine, point taken. But you think there are no virtual ones? 

[musashi]

My point has always been ... there are I believe ... very ... VERY few. Like if you have one its the story of your life .. few.

Plenty of Indy hawkers and merchants running underfoot selling ware out their backpacks and on display rugs. Maybe in tents and the like that they can easily pack up head off with. But not a lot of independent property owners. I think this is how the game's theme is supposed to be.

[Zul]

My point has always been ... there are I believe ... very ... VERY few. Like if you have one its the story of your life .. few.

Is 2-5 in each city-state too much?

[Booya]

I can say with utmost certainty that working for countless hours off-peak to realize a goal that will more than likely go unnoticed is a bit disheartening, to say the least.

That's fine if you don't want to, but that tends to be the way to get big, interesting things changed/happening. You shouldn't just expect staff to work for countless hours to plonk something in for you that you can't be bothered to work at at all IG yourself.

And don't be discouraged to try and do things off-peak! I've played a Byn Sergeant (suck it anti-offpeak leaders! I might even again!)  and an indie merchant that only sold to PCs, and only really used the General Crafter's Subguild. Sure it wasn't easy and i'm pretty patient, but it didn't involve ONLY sitting somewhere trading. It's possible if you're willing to put a bit of effort into the role. eg. Hawking your ass off!  I think any player, peak or not, would struggle if they just sit somewhere and don't try to engage interest in their character and their wares.

Also, you won't be as rich as merchants and hunters that sell to NPCs, but that's a good thing if you want to play a small-time merchant that's struggling for survival in a harsh environment! (If you don't want to play this, play in a Merchant House.)

That being said, I like the idea of player-owned NPC run shops and reckon i'd play one. It could be fun and help with playability both in being an indie merchant, and using a PC one. Hard to buy off a PC merchant when they're not around! And it's Sod's Law that they never are when you need them. A stall can be two barrels and a plank of wood, so really it's more the space in the market you're taking up - be that with a rug, makeshift stall, tent etc.

With some caveats though, such as there being a limit to how many things you could have on display to sell (maybe dependent on how much your rent for the size of pitch was), only selling crafted goods, and the amount you sell to vNPCS being so minimal you have to mainly rely on PC trade - and therefore interact with others in order to be in touch with the state of play/demand around you.

I'd also be disappointed if I then saw Monsieur Stall Owner PC selling to other NPC shops to fund their own stall 

[musashi]

Sure 2-5 in each city state is fine. Just keep in mind for reference purposes that that means in a city 300,000-400,000 people ... 2-5 people have their own shop without being bought out in some fashion by a greater merchant/noble house. And those are the odds your PC needs to win against to be one of the 2-5.

Warriors want metal swords. Rangers want flying mounts. Gickers want unique spells. And merchants want their own shops. This be the stuff of legend. Yar!

*please note all of the above have in fact been attained. Just rarely. Enjoy the challenge.

[Jenred]

Im struggling to find out why 4 pages of discussion are necessary in the pitching process of an idea that already exists in game.

[Barsook]

Im struggling to find out why 4 pages of discussion are necessary in the pitching process of an idea that already exists in game.

[Maso]

Ok, so how about....

1. coded stalls that could be hired out and manned by PC's
2. only in one specific location in the Known (think like Luirs, as it's a Trade Outpost, rather than a city state)
3. only occurs at certain times, like a regular RPT - anyone can take part though if they have the goods and the coin to pay for the stall, though it would be first come first serve

Ponts 2 & 3 would mean there would be a large number of PC's coming together to try and sell their wares at a particular time in one particular place. This would hopefully draw a large pool of people looking to buy all at once. Thus negating the boredom factor that would occur if you're just stood there by yourself all day without a PC in sight.

I suppose the stalls could be available all the time, and if you wanted to be there alone then you could be...there could just be an encouraged RPT as well so at least there was a 'sweet' time to do it.

This is probably something that could be pursued/organised IG by the appropriate parties though.

[BuNutzCola]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44234.0.html


Isn't this pretty much already the case?

Barring the NPC sellers.

[Booya]

The NPC seller is the crucial difference, and maybe the chance to hire a NPC guard.

Otherwise everything else is doable already if you want it to be PC run.

[Dalmeth]

There is only one reason why a PC merchant doesn't work right now : they have nothing interesting to sell.

But Dalmeth, they can mastercraft!

And I say one item a month is a grueling way to build a catalogue.  This isn't the sort of thing that can be solved with one or two items, merchants have to be able to produce a constant variety of goods in order to keep other players interested.

But Dalmeth, the lazy bastards just need to study the craft system!

And I say the craft system is opaque, the logic is contradictory, and an investigation is more likely to produce random items that have no particular relevance.  Gathering the number of necessary items to do a serious investigation is also prohibitive, as few outside of the Merchant Houses have the storage space for so many random items, and fewer still can dedicate that space to something that isn't going to make rent.

The staff could build a list of items for each city every month and seed the shops with items from the list.  Since merchants are often scanning the shops for items to replicate, players can eventually be taught a number of basic (and some not-so-basic) crafts.

With an opaque crafting system like we have here, it is imperative that crafts be continuously taught between characters.

As it stands, this happens little outside Merchant Houses, and even when other players ask crafters for particular objects, they often can't produce them because the recipe is obscure.  Eventually, no one even expects an independent PC merchant to be selling something, so the PC merchant starts selling only to NPC shops.  This is not a good system.

[Sephiroto]

There is only one reason why a PC merchant doesn't work right now : they have nothing interesting to sell.

I think PC's sell to each other less often because it's usually easier to go to a market full of NPCs and buy what you want if you want it now, even if you have to pay more.  I'd say the largest obstacle to PC's running a stall or a carpet laden with goods is that they have no way to protect their stuff from being stolen.  Crim-code doesn't apply to PCs like it does to NPCs, especially NPC merchants. 

If there was a corner of the bazaar where PC merchants could pay a small lot fee to lay down a blanket and show off their wares without having to worry about everything stolen by 1 day old thieves, then other social and economic avenues would open up to the game.  I don't think it takes a lot of imagination to see what good this could do if it were used.