PC Stalls

[Sephiroto]

I like the idea of having a PC area of the bazaar where PCs could congregate, spread out a carpet and display wares.  There would need to be code mechanisms in place that prevent people from entering the room, grabbing your stuff, as well as to discourage thievery.  Crim flags would do this just fine, during the right hours of the day.

I'm not a fan of any NPC automated shopkeepers though.

[Riev]

I also think those bone display cases might be a decent idea as well. I think it'd be great to have a mobile container that people can look at, and know you're a merchant and what you're selling. Would give Templars a reason to remember names of merchants, and a real "reason" to give out merchant licenses.

[BadSkeelz]

Being able to pitch tents in the bazaar would let players set up their own stalls. I also suggest enabling the Hit Code for the whole area, so they can then fight over primo spots.

[bcw81]

Being able to pitch tents in the bazaar would let players set up their own stalls. I also suggest enabling the Hit Code for the whole area, so they can then fight over primo spots.

Pretty sure you -can- set tents up there.

[Fathi]

Right, but that also makes stealing those items trivial (unless there's a bit of code attached to them that I'm not aware of).

You can hire someone to guard the rug, or stand there and guard it yourself. At least I believe you can guard objects. Been a while since I checked.

This idea sounds good in theory but I don't know about automation with NPCs or any of that. It sounds like a really complicated solution to something that's not really a problem.

[Molten Heart]

If you're providing the person/guard with food/water and a place to sleep and keep their things, you can get away with paying them a few small a month.

[Jenred]

Find out IC.

[valeria]

I think the problem with the display cases and such is that you can't 'view' the items within them...you can't get a good look at them the same way you can with items in an NPC store. If that was adjusted that would be cool...Also...something that you didn't have to actually hold (like a table vs. a case around your neck).

Are you sure?  I'm pretty sure there is a for this, either "look <item> case" or possibly "look case <item>."  I used to use it all the time when I was playing a Kadian, it's just not intuitive or well-known.  Or maybe I'm getting confused with looking at items on tables.

[Rhyden]

All the tools for creating a PC "stall" or tent are there. If you can't pitch a tent inside, who says you can't right outside the gates? I bet there's more traffic there anyways.

It may take some time acquiring everything you need: supplies, a token, bribing people in power, paying for guards, getting inventory, etc. but that's all part of the fun.

[Zul]

I think facilitating this would make it easier to get players involved. Perhaps there's a reason it hasn't really been done on a large scale as of yet.

[bcw81]

I think the problem with the display cases and such is that you can't 'view' the items within them...you can't get a good look at them the same way you can with items in an NPC store. If that was adjusted that would be cool...Also...something that you didn't have to actually hold (like a table vs. a case around your neck).

Are you sure?  I'm pretty sure there is a for this, either "look <item> case" or possibly "look case <item>."  I used to use it all the time when I was playing a Kadian, it's just not intuitive or well-known.  Or maybe I'm getting confused with looking at items on tables.

LOOK (ITEM) (TABLE/CASE) will allow you to look at an item on a table-like object. (That includes the display cases.)

[Marauder Moe]

I think facilitating this would make it easier to get players involved. Perhaps there's a reason it hasn't really been done on a large scale as of yet.

I think it hasn't been done often because sitting in the marketplace hoping to attract passer-by's is a lot more boring (and less productive) than sitting in taverns and conducting your sales there.

[Malken]

I think facilitating this would make it easier to get players involved. Perhaps there's a reason it hasn't really been done on a large scale as of yet.

I think it hasn't been done often because sitting in the marketplace hoping to attract passer-by's is a lot more boring (and less productive) than sitting in taverns and conducting your sales there.

That's the kind of role that people who play armageddon as a side-game or from work would probably enjoy.

I can't imagine spending more than five minutes myself sitting in the middle of the tribal market hoping that somebody will pass by and come visit me, just like I'd never want anyone to 'guard' my tent as a job. Only a few very select type of players would/do enjoy that type of role.

Armageddon players have a way to come up with 'solution' that nobody is willing/wanting to play out for a reason. Because it's bloody boring. Setting up a tent in the middle of somewhere is not going to get you any customers and, again, if you don't like idling for more than five minutes at a time, there's no way you can take that as a solution.

One of my most fun characters in both Harshlands and Shadows of Isildur is when I had my own little shops to take care of, filling up the storeroom with items that I crafted myself and that were being sold and 'displayed' by NPC shopkeepers. It gave me a sense of pride to have items on sale that no others did and that people would come to me just for them.

The same kind of pride I had when I was running my own shops in Star Wars Galaxies.

Setting up a tent in the middle of nowhere and pretending to play shop till I get bored to death? Fuck that shit.

[Maso]

I think the problem with the display cases and such is that you can't 'view' the items within them...you can't get a good look at them the same way you can with items in an NPC store. If that was adjusted that would be cool...Also...something that you didn't have to actually hold (like a table vs. a case around your neck).

Are you sure?  I'm pretty sure there is a for this, either "look <item> case" or possibly "look case <item>."  I used to use it all the time when I was playing a Kadian, it's just not intuitive or well-known.  Or maybe I'm getting confused with looking at items on tables.

LOOK (ITEM) (TABLE/CASE) will allow you to look at an item on a table-like object. (That includes the display cases.)

Which isn not the same as 'view'. It will give you the mdesc, but not infomation such as...will the item fit you...what it could be used for...does that bow have the right pull....what kind of style is it (who is it made by)...etc etc. Which may not be so bad, but it just makes it slightly more difficult to be a PC shopkeeper than an NPC one.

[Barzalene]

I think the problem with the display cases and such is that you can't 'view' the items within them...you can't get a good look at them the same way you can with items in an NPC store. If that was adjusted that would be cool...Also...something that you didn't have to actually hold (like a table vs. a case around your neck).

Are you sure?  I'm pretty sure there is a for this, either "look <item> case" or possibly "look case <item>."  I used to use it all the time when I was playing a Kadian, it's just not intuitive or well-known.  Or maybe I'm getting confused with looking at items on tables.

LOOK (ITEM) (TABLE/CASE) will allow you to look at an item on a table-like object. (That includes the display cases.)

Which isn not the same as 'view'. It will give you the mdesc, but not infomation such as...will the item fit you...what it could be used for...does that bow have the right pull....what kind of style is it (who is it made by)...etc etc. Which may not be so bad, but it just makes it slightly more difficult to be a PC shopkeeper than an NPC one.

But I think that's fine. The PC shopkeeper has a wider range of interaction, after all.

[bcw81]

I think the problem with the display cases and such is that you can't 'view' the items within them...you can't get a good look at them the same way you can with items in an NPC store. If that was adjusted that would be cool...Also...something that you didn't have to actually hold (like a table vs. a case around your neck).

Are you sure?  I'm pretty sure there is a for this, either "look <item> case" or possibly "look case <item>."  I used to use it all the time when I was playing a Kadian, it's just not intuitive or well-known.  Or maybe I'm getting confused with looking at items on tables.

LOOK (ITEM) (TABLE/CASE) will allow you to look at an item on a table-like object. (That includes the display cases.)

Which isn not the same as 'view'. It will give you the mdesc, but not infomation such as...will the item fit you...what it could be used for...does that bow have the right pull....what kind of style is it (who is it made by)...etc etc. Which may not be so bad, but it just makes it slightly more difficult to be a PC shopkeeper than an NPC one.

Yeah, I'm with Barz here. If it's a PC shopkeeper, you have the ability to "TELL SHOPKEEPER (pointing to that one sexy dress that reveals everything while still covering the wearer's modesty) Can I see that one? I would like to try it on before buying. If you give me a discount, I'll let you watch me change into it." He will then respond to you, unlike an NPC.

[Zul]

One of my most fun characters in both Harshlands and Shadows of Isildur is when I had my own little shops to take care of, filling up the storeroom with items that I crafted myself and that were being sold and 'displayed' by NPC shopkeepers. It gave me a sense of pride to have items on sale that no others did and that people would come to me just for them.

This is kind of what I was getting at by mentioning this type of play being facilitated by staff.

And we're currently not going to have something like this because...?

[Maso]

Really, everything you need in game to be a PC shopkeeper who has a rug or display case in a bazaar and sets up and trades with other PC's...is already there. We just don't see it because people don't do it much. I have seen it though, and it's cool. Maybe it's not financially viable enough when your only customers are PC's and not NPC's or even vNPC's? Might also get pretty lonely and boring if no one stops by all day.

[Malken]

Really, everything you need in game to be a PC shopkeeper who has a rug or display case in a bazaar and sets up and trades with other PC's...is already there. We just don't see it because people don't do it much. I have seen it though, and it's cool. Maybe it's not financially viable enough when your only customers are PC's and not NPC's or even vNPC's? Might also get pretty lonely and boring if no one stops by all day.

That's why I say it's probably not the kind of role anyone would want unless you play Arm on the side.. Even if you had a NPC shopkeeper who you had to pay, I don't think it would stop any sort of interaction, you can just sit at the Sanctuary or Gaj and keep telling people to go visit your shop, instead of sitting somewhere all by your lonely self hoping that someone will pity you and come visit.

People are always afraid of new things on Arm, that it'll take away interaction if we introduce it to the game, like apartments at first, then PC storehouses, and now PC stalls..

[Zul]

Might also get pretty lonely and boring if no one stops by all day.

Doesn't that have something to do with why the OP initially suggested players be given the opportunity to establish a place of trade with an NPC shopkeeper?

I get that you were the first to respond, and you seem to be on board with the idea...I just don't get how this is a bad idea. It would do nothing to harm the game or get in the way of role-play (so far as I can see), and yet the majority of the posters in this thread are vehemently against the realization of such an idea.

I'm quite perplexed, and I'd rather read some more insightful posts pointing to the contrary as opposed to "eh, this can be already be done in-game with a rug and some wares placed on it".

I don't want to see a work around or a half-assed attempt at something by players (e.g. placing your wares atop a rug and hoping someone might stroll past, stop, and offer you some measure of their time). I'd be much more interested in seeing players be given the ability to set out to do something and have the necessary tools to realize their goals.

[bcw81]

People are always afraid of new things on Arm, that it'll take away interaction if we introduce it to the game, like apartments at first, then PC storehouses, and now PC stalls..

What I'm afraid of in a system like suggested is that people will treat it like Achaea's system. In that there is no rhyme nor reason why "Herbs and Turds" is selling a selection of legwear, underwear, swords, and absolutely no herbs or turds. A system like mentioned would mean that PC merchants who want to be indy would basically just be doing exactly what they already do - Selling everything they make to an NPC - however, if this were added it would mean that they could sell -everything- to said merchant instead of having to wait for their stock to decrease/financial assets to increase.

Note that doing that would mean that actually needing to speak to a PC to get yourself a small item would become non-existent. While that is not entirely bad in and of itself, I do think it would take away from playing a... You know... Merchant.

[Barzalene]

I don't see what owning shopkeeper npc adds to the game in a positive way? Do I want to stifle the independent merchant? Kinda. It's a harsh desert planet. Do I want to replace pc interaction with an npc? I don't. Do I want to make Amos lug his crap around until he unloads it? Yeah. Maybe he'll hire help, giving another pc work. Or maybe he'll get robbed- thus supporting the criminal element. I just think that's a bigger win for the game.

[Maso]

Now Zul is changing my mind back...I'm very on the fence with this. On one hand, it would be pretty cool for PC's to be able to set up their own shops with NPC shopkeepers and be able to populate that shop with products...On the other hand - how many people would actually make use of this feature regularly to make it worthwhile to code in? PC's that live long enough and are genuinely entrepreneurial enough to achieve this are probably rare, it might be easier for the staff to set them up with a one time shop for their efforts.

[Zul]

I don't see what owning shopkeeper npc adds to the game in a positive way?

I commented on this below, but here's a short list:

1) Foster relationships - both good and bad - between independent merchants
2) Foster relationships - both good and bad - between independent merchants and merchant houses. I believe this will lead to assassins being in higher demand.
3) Increased political intrigue
4) An increase in the amount of barroom deals between a merchant and city enforcer (soldier, templar, etc.) with regard to putting the squeeze on an annoying competitor that's cutting in on their turf

Do I want to stifle the independent merchant? Kinda. It's a harsh desert planet.

I find this to be a bit unnecessary and somewhat obtuse.

Do I want to replace pc interaction with an npc? I don't.

I don't necessarily think it will. Rather, I am of the opinion that owning a stall can open the door to a host of role-play opportunities and political intrigue.

Do I want to make Amos lug his crap around until he unloads it? Yeah. Maybe he'll hire help, giving another pc work. Or maybe he'll get robbed- thus supporting the criminal element. I just think that's a bigger win for the game.

I tend to disagree, but fair enough.

How many people would actually make use of this feature regularly to make it worthwhile to code in?

Good question. I will say this: in being an exclusive player of combat roles, I would be very interested in trying my hand at a merchant class in the near future if given the opportunity to establish my own shop and peddle my wares.

Idea: What if these shops could be coded in similar fashion as apartments in that multiple pcs can join together to "rent" a shop, hire a shopkeeper and have the profits disbursed amongst them?

Add this to the list of reasons why I feel this can add to the game.

[Barzalene]

I hate debate. So please understand I am actually asking not for an argument, but for clarification, why all the positives you list are more likely with an npc rather than pc shopkeeper?