A world without sexism confuses and angers me.

[MeTekillot]

I do not see how there could be any harm in retroactively making the Jihaen and Lirathan orders non-sex discriminating.

[AmandaGreathouse]

You know, I was just about to disagree with you... then I decided to look up the dictionary version of sexism in compare to my own thoughts on it and... no, you're right, it does exist.

Point 1 is the part I'm talking about, but you're talking about point 2.

sex·ism  [sek-siz-uh m]  Show IPA
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.

[musashi]

I am pro "offer to pay men for sex". Please ladies ... don't be sexist. Get your coins out. Make it rain black.

[Narf]

Having played a character that hit on men incessantly, let me assure people out there that are considering 'being the change', it is a potload of fun.

Guarenteed to fill at least a medium-sized metaphorical pot or your money back, in fact.

[Fredd]

I've been playing Arm for several years and I have seen quite a few male whores in my time... some very obvious that you didn't need to ask if they were, some not so obvious but still give you that certain feeling about them, some hiding it quite well. So on this, I have to disagree.

This I've seen several in the last 4 years, including the last two. The thing is they don't get nearly as much attention as an actual female whore.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Yeah... I don't try and pick up whores much, male or female. And there's probably a lot of other female players like that.
I also don't enjoy having my pcs picked up as whores. Is it too much to ask to see if maybe they would reveal it in conversation? If you haven't spoken five words with you, why the FUCK would they want to go into a locked apartment possibly with you?

[Fredd]

Yeah... I don't try and pick up whores much, male or female. And there's probably a lot of other female players like that.
I also don't enjoy having my pcs picked up as whores. Is it too much to ask to see if maybe they would reveal it in conversation? If you haven't spoken five words with you, why the FUCK would they want to go into a locked apartment possibly with you?

Typically, they do, if they are loking for a client. And most wear there merchent token/liscense rather visualy, to show they are on duty. I think people are just hoping you want to cyber-hump them amanda.

[LauraMars]

I think the Lirathan and Jihaen templarate were created when the world was young (i.e. when 15 year old boys were in charge of the mud and the Age of Sanvean had not yet come) and so were categorized in much more stereotypical roles than the rest of the mud.  The Lirathans were record keepers and administrators.  Oh, and they were also a lower order than the Jihaens, serving as a type of secretary to the martial templarate.  It does seem a bit annoying that only men are able to be warmongers and kung fu templars in Tuluk.  I find the Jihaens a much more appealing an order than the Lirathans, but playing male characters is not that interesting to me.  Still, I'm not a huge fan of (inorganic) leadership roles to begin with, so it's not a huge loss.  But it is an example of one of the only roles in armageddon that are limited by gender.  

Other than that one nitpick (and maybe one or two other roles which players can't hold anyway), it is a nice feeling to know that any role in the game that I might wish to have is open to me, as long as I have the skill and desire to go after it.

[Fredd]

I think the Lirathan and Jihaen templarate were created when the world was young (i.e. when 15 year old boys were in charge of the mud and the Age of Sanvean had not yet come) and so were categorized in much more stereotypical roles than the rest of the mud.  The Lirathans were record keepers and administrators.  Oh, and they were also a lower order than the Jihaens, serving as a type of secretary to the martial templarate.  It does seem a bit annoying that only men are able to be warmongers and kung fu templars in Tuluk.  I find the Jihaens a much more appealing an order than the Lirathans, but playing male characters is not that interesting to me.  Still, I'm not a huge fan of (inorganic) leadership roles to begin with, so it's not a huge loss.  But it is an example of one of the only roles in armageddon that are limited by gender.  

Other than that one nitpick (and maybe one or two other roles which players can't hold anyway), it is a nice feeling to know that any role in the game that I might wish to have is open to me, as long as I have the skill and desire to go after it.

From what I understand. There is a specific reason for this seperation, and there abilitys, and what they do.

[benegesseritwitch]

In the brief time I played a male--someone I thought I was playing as unassuming and friendly (maybe even downright bland)--I was either ignored or looked at like I was crazy or possibly even creepy. I don't know how you fellows deal with this kind of behavior towards your persons!








Edit: Yes, that was facetious in tone

[i can haz mantis]

I've been playing Arm for several years and I have seen quite a few male whores in my time... some very obvious that you didn't need to ask if they were, some not so obvious but still give you that certain feeling about them, some hiding it quite well. So on this, I have to disagree.

This I've seen several in the last 4 years, including the last two. The thing is they don't get nearly as much attention as an actual female whore.

Exactly!

Which, to me, says that whatever sexism you are seeing in game toward this particular profession is coming in on an OOC level.

[musashi]

I am also pro female jihaens and male lirathans.

[LauraMars]

It doesn't really matter if girls don't want to hire male whores that much, does it?  Or even that male players are more likely than female players to hire prostitutes.  I think it's stupid to infer that female players are doing something wrong by being uninterested in hiring male whores, and I also think it's stupid to infer that male players are doing something wrong by wanting to hire female whores.

The point is that nobody is stopping men from becoming whores if they want to play that role.  

[musashi]

It doesn't really matter if girls don't want to hire male whores that much, does it?  Or even that male players are more likely than female players to hire prostitutes.  I think it's stupid to infer that female players are doing something wrong by being uninterested in hiring male whores, and I also think it's stupid to infer that male players are doing something wrong by wanting to hire female whores.

The point is that nobody is stopping men from becoming whores if they want to play that role.  

And, no one is stopping women from not becoming whores if they don't want to play that role. Just, if you're hawt and emote sexy, sometimes you may get asked.

You are wise beyond your maklar.

[Lutagar]

This has always been an unpopular opinion of mine, but, I've always felt that males being faster to empathize their sexual prowess/act in a provocative way is realistic for the setting. Women, regardless of how badass they are, run the risk of being impregnated - and if they were to get knocked up by a man whore, that would leave them between a rock and a hard place. Even if they are using Mul Mix, they still run the risk.  They could ask for "early withdrawal", but there's really no guarantee that their male partner would do as requested.

It's not that I'm so overly bothered about who chooses to play what - it's just why I think female whores might be more common, thankfully, alot (at least from what I have seen) of that kind of thing is hand-waved so female PC's aren't pressured to acting like 80's housewives or pretty, defenseless little things who couldn't possibly survive without a man's heroic presence.

[LauraMars]

female PC's aren't pressured to acting like 80's housewives

An "80s housewife"

seems legit

[Fathi]

female PC's aren't pressured to acting like 80's housewives

An "80s housewife"

seems legit

An "80s housewife"

seems legit
[/quote]



I would be perfectly ok with this.[/img]

[Fredd]

It doesn't really matter if girls don't want to hire male whores that much, does it?  Or even that male players are more likely than female players to hire prostitutes.  I think it's stupid to infer that female players are doing something wrong by being uninterested in hiring male whores, and I also think it's stupid to infer that male players are doing something wrong by wanting to hire female whores.

The point is that nobody is stopping men from becoming whores if they want to play that role.  

Yes, no one is debating that. What the complaint is is that every female pc this person makes, gets asked if they are a whore. and it seems rather common. And that is a problem honestly. And it's only fix is at the player level. Admins can't really do much about it.

[Lizzie]

It doesn't really matter if girls don't want to hire male whores that much, does it?  Or even that male players are more likely than female players to hire prostitutes.  I think it's stupid to infer that female players are doing something wrong by being uninterested in hiring male whores, and I also think it's stupid to infer that male players are doing something wrong by wanting to hire female whores.

The point is that nobody is stopping men from becoming whores if they want to play that role.  

Yes, no one is debating that. What the complaint is is that every female pc this person makes, gets asked if they are a whore. and it seems rather common. And that is a problem honestly. And it's only fix is at the player level. Admins can't really do much about it.

Except, it's not common. I'm a pretty active player, I play during peak, and occasionally off-peak during USA daytime (before most kids get home from school and after most adults go to work). My characters are often in bars, and often outside cities. Where people typically congregate, and where they don't. Most of my characters have the "listen" skill (not all, but definitely most). So I am either part of, or hear, conversations between other players every RL day, of every RL week, with the exception of a couple weeks vacation each year, every year, for the past several years. And I can assure you - this "calling every female character in the game a whore" just plain doesn't happen.

If it's happening to this one player - then there's something SHE is doing, that is contributing to it. Perhaps there are certain players who play characters that always accuse females who have a certain look, if they're whores - and she keeps playing those certain-looking famales, and hanging around those characters played by those particular players. It could be that simple.

This does happen. I'm not saying it doesn't. But it doesn't happen to all the attractive characters. It doesn't happen every day, and it doesn't happen *from* all the male characters. For all we know, it could be just a certain few characters who come from low-life scum backgrounds, and see any pretty thing without a signet ring as a chance to get laid by quality goods. And look - they're even offering to pay for it. That doesn't mean all pretty female PCs get hit on by all male PCs, nor does it mean that all PCs accuse all pretty PC females of being whores.

It's mostly hyperbole, based on one player's unpleasant experiences. And that leads me to believe that it's that one player who is, somehow, contributing to the unpleasantness. Notice I'm not saying she's causing it. I don't believe she's *causing* it. But I'm guessing, based on my experiences of my characters, and my observations of other public scenes in the game of other characters, that there's something significant missing from the complaint. And that something significant, goes far beyond "I was doing nothing provocative, just minding my own business."

[musashi]

It's mostly hyperbole, based on one player's unpleasant experiences.

I gotta say this is what it sounds like to me too honestly. I mean ok sure I'm not a female, I don't play female PC's, and my PC's very very rarely ever have an interest in romance with other PC's so I don't go hunting for this "side of the game" at all.

But I've seen people flirt in bars while I'm there trying to grind up my listen skill plenty  

And I just, haven't really seen this whole "Hey you a whore?" thing in action.

But um, then again ... ... maybe I just need to play in Allanak more. The very first time I ever brought a character of mine from the north, to the south ... the first PC they met down there who interacted with them was a whore, soliciting them to put her to work so ... man is there really that much sex going on in the south?  

[williamson]

I think the Lirathan and Jihaen templarate were created when the world was young (i.e. when 15 year old boys were in charge of the mud and the Age of Sanvean had not yet come) and so were categorized in much more stereotypical roles than the rest of the mud.

These assumptions are incorrect.

[SpyGuy]

I think the Lirathan and Jihaen templarate were created when the world was young (i.e. when 15 year old boys were in charge of the mud and the Age of Sanvean had not yet come) and so were categorized in much more stereotypical roles than the rest of the mud.

These assumptions are incorrect.

Personally I like how the gender roles are in the Tuluki templarate.  Especially Lirathans, they reek of the Bene Gesserit in a good way.  I think it adds to the mystique of the roles being a distinct brotherhood and sisterhood.  In Allanak the PC templars are all blue robes that afaik have similiar responsibilities and powers.  Tuluk has a divided templarate, each with their own sphere of influence.

/derail

[Patuk]

'less players are interested in hiring male whores'

'nobody is stopping people from playing male whores if they want to'

Seems legit.

[Cind]

And I just, haven't really seen this whole "Hey you a whore?" thing in action.

But um, then again ... ... maybe I just need to play in Allanak more. The very first time I ever brought a character of mine from the north, to the south ... the first PC they met down there who interacted with them was a whore, soliciting them to put her to work so ... man is there really that much sex going on in the south?  

Oh yeah. It happens. Especially with my southern elven women for some reason. I had an elven woman wearing a dress, boots and a necklace, just normal stuff, and she was once assumed directly to be a whore by some passing dude and asked questions about her job.

I would congradulate the statistics on that, but sexual promiscuity isn't supposed to be derogatory or low-class, so, whatever. Just some weird statistic. Good mudsex-easy role, maybe, unless my, four? elven pcs are a statistical outlier.

[MeTekillot]

Maybe I just suck at flirting and swaggering, but my male whore had trouble finding, no matter which side of the fence he was swinging at.