Never met you, but, you are sexy.

[Desertman]

Because if you hear a name...you can...reach your mind into the Way and seek out all the minds that identify themselves as 'Amos'...

Can you bold the section in the help file that says this for me.....

[Nyr]

This just says, "The Way exists."

Am I missing the part about it explaining that we can reach the minds of people we don't even know just because we hear their name?

It's a bit much to expect every helpfile and every bit of documentation to explain every possible situation for every player.  However, it really seems at this point that the argument about this has become pedantic, and it is beginning to become annoying.   I'll be happy to lay out things clearly providing that this ends this line of questioning.

1.  Regarding The Way:  The IC reason to explain why you can contact people you've never met is that everyone is psionic to some extent.  It is in the helpfile for "The Way."  If you need an IC explanation, you can read one into the helpfile for "The Way."  If you do not need an IC explanation, you're fine.  If you do not want (or do not want to accept) an IC explanation and still have a problem with this, see #2.

2.  Regarding sdesc sniffing:  It's not against the rules, no, and we've made that clear.  However, that doesn't give people carte blanche to be an asshole with what is admittedly not the best system in the world.  (If we thought it was perfect, we'd say so.)  If someone is being an asshole about said system, please file a player complaint against them.  We will review it as we do with any complaints and we will take action as we see fit.

3.  Regarding any coded solution, but specifically one related to this thread:  we can and will consider options, but if we don't go with your idea, you have #1 and #2 to fall back on.

There we go.  That should cover everything.

[RogueGunslinger]

Because if you hear a name...you can...reach your mind into the Way and seek out all the minds that identify themselves as 'Amos'...

Can you bold the section in the help file that says this for me.....

That's just what the code does, regardless of what the helpfile says. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to contact the wrong Amos on accident.

[Desertman]

It's a bit much to expect every helpfile and every bit of documentation to explain every possible situation for every player.  

To be fair, I never said I "expected" it. I simply stated the fact that it didn't for this specific situation. I'm fine with the fact it doesn't. But when someone says it does, then quotes it, and it doesn't, well...I was at a loss.

However, it really seems at this point that the argument about this has become pedantic, and it is beginning to become annoying.   I'll be happy to lay out things clearly providing that this ends this line of questioning.

1.  Regarding The Way:  The IC reason to explain why you can contact people you've never met is that everyone is psionic to some extent.  It is in the helpfile for "The Way."  If you need an IC explanation, you can read one into the helpfile for "The Way."  If you do not need an IC explanation, you're fine.  If you do not want (or do not want to accept) an IC explanation and still have a problem with this, see #2.

See, I didn't realize you wanted me to "read into" what it said. I was just reading exactly what it said. I didn't know I was supposed to be drawing assumptions of my own instead of going with the hard facts.

Now that I know that, I'm cool as ice and thank you for taking the time to explain that to me.

I didn't mean to rustle your jimmies.

2.  Regarding sdesc sniffing:  It's not against the rules, no, and we've made that clear.  However, that doesn't give people carte blanche to be an asshole with what is admittedly not the best system in the world.  (If we thought it was perfect, we'd say so.)  If someone is being an asshole about said system, please file a player complaint against them.  We will review it as we do with any complaints and we will take action as we see fit.

I'm right here with you. Cool.

3.  Regarding any coded solution, but specifically one related to this thread:  we can and will consider options, but if we don't go with your idea, you have #1 and #2 to fall back on.

There we go.  That should cover everything.

That indeed does cover mostly everything I think.

Thank you.

[Desertman]

That's just what the code does, regardless of what the helpfile says. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to contact the wrong Amos on accident.

Which is my point exactly...

[Morrolan]

Keywords are already enough of an OOC construct. They can be gamed, and can (intentionally or unintentionally) give advantages to some characters.

This is my pet peeve with "creative" keywords. Communicating who someone is gets this odd OOC factor, when my bynner says, "Yep, Faithful Lord. He was an elf with blue eyes. Taller than me. Skinny." Cerulean? Really?

I have seen closer examples, but they may be in play, and therefore too IC.

"rust-colored" Rusted what?
"honey" Green? Gold? IC or OOC?
"baobab-colored" The bark? The wood? The leaves? The flowers?

Choosing words that are not part of the usual Zalanthan lexicon offers a bizarre coded advantage, whether it is intended or not.

"What color was the elf's skin?"
Feeling OOC annoyance, you think, "Taupe."
>say I did not get a good look, sir. I will need to think about it.
>gone looking up the word to find a synonym because I can't use that word in character and have no idea what color it is, or have some idea but do not understand the exact connotations of it

I much prefer to use either setting-related words (though WTF is desert-colored? Red? Beige?) or common words with descriptors. If there are amethysts coded on Zalanthas, then that is an awesome word. Rubies? Cool.

"deep black"
"night black"
"solid black"

You get the idea.

[Delirium]

I think the Way, and keywords, are fine as is. In an imperfect world with technical limitations to text-based games, it's a good solution.

... guys? Guys? Why are you looking at me like that?

[Desertman]

^
^
^
 

[Synthesis]

Problem:

You know a PC, and you know their sdesc, and you know a nickname that's been connected between the two of you by the code, such that you can contact them with that nickname.

I'm following you here.

You don't know this PC's real name, because fuck that, who is going to give -anyone- their real name, when they can be spoof-proof by using a nickname?

Any time you give someone an "alias" you are supposed to addkeyword and add that alias to your list of nicknames. Do you not do that currently? I do that. If my name is actually Harry, but I tell someone my name is Bob, I instantly 'addkeyword bob'.

You want someone else you know to contact this PC.  In order to arrange for that 3rd person to contact your mysterious bud, you have to give them EXACTLY the right keywords to contact them.

I see that you COULD do it that way, but, it would be extremely cheesy, and borderline code abuse. You would be intentionally cheating to exploit a loop in the code that was designed to keep you from doing exactly this sort of thing.

The proper thing to do would be to arrange a meeting of the third party and your mysterious friend face to face so that those two people could then communicate telepathically, having actually met each other.

You have to say, "alright dude, he's an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair," otherwise it's never going to happen.

If someone ever did that to me they would get a...

OOC: Hey man, you aren't supposed to bypass the coded restrictions of the Way by doing that.

And that would be followed with a submitted player complaint with the log attached.

By attempting to fix the problem this way, you've made it even worse.

I have to agree to disagree.

You're misunderstanding the scenario.  Under the new keyword system, you wouldn't have to addkeyword yourself, because anyone interacting with you would addkeyword to you.  (In Soviet Russia, keyword adds YOU.)

Also, you can't arrange every 3rd party interaction, because sometimes (often, in the case of criminals) the 3rd party is someone you don't want to encounter in the first place.

e.g. private amos tells lord templar hardnose about slick willie the elf, and lord templar hardnose wants to tell slick willie to knock it off or there will be blood...private amos can contact slick.willie, but lord templar hardnose can only use cerulean.flame.elf

[Desertman]

You're misunderstanding the scenario.  Under the new keyword system, you wouldn't have to addkeyword yourself, because anyone interacting with you would addkeyword to you.  (In Soviet Russia, keyword adds YOU.)

Oh no, I'm right there with you. I understand this. But do you understand that you would be doing "both", if you gave them an alias that was not your real name? They could contact you with your sdesc, your real name, an alias you were going by, or the alias they added to you.

Also, you can't arrange every 3rd party interaction, because sometimes (often, in the case of criminals) the 3rd party is someone you don't want to encounter in the first place.

This is an IC consideration and not an OOC consideration. If the person IC is too scared to meet the criminal, or the criminal will not come forth to meet the third party...that is just an IC dynamic.

In fact, I like it and prefer it.

e.g. private amos tells lord templar hardnose about slick willie the elf, and lord templar hardnose wants to tell slick willie to knock it off or there will be blood...private amos can contact slick.willie, but lord templar hardnose can only use cerulean.flame.elf

Then Lord Templar Hard Nose has never met Slick Willie the elf, and as such, so long as Slick Willie the elf stays away from Lord Templar Hard Nose, then Lord Templar Hard Nose won't be able to harass him, telepathically or otherwise.

I REALLY LIKE THIS.

I fail to see the issue?

[Synthesis]

You're misunderstanding the scenario.  Under the new keyword system, you wouldn't have to addkeyword yourself, because anyone interacting with you would addkeyword to you.  (In Soviet Russia, keyword adds YOU.)

Oh no, I'm right there with you. I understand this. But do you understand that you would be doing "both", if you gave them an alias that was not your real name? They could contact you with your sdesc, your real name, an alias you were going by, or the alias they added to you.

Also, you can't arrange every 3rd party interaction, because sometimes (often, in the case of criminals) the 3rd party is someone you don't want to encounter in the first place.

This is an IC consideration and not an OOC consideration. If the person IC is too scared to meet the criminal, or the criminal will not come forth to meet the third party...that is just an IC dynamic.

In fact, I like it and prefer it.

e.g. private amos tells lord templar hardnose about slick willie the elf, and lord templar hardnose wants to tell slick willie to knock it off or there will be blood...private amos can contact slick.willie, but lord templar hardnose can only use cerulean.flame.elf

Then Lord Templar Hard Nose has never met Slick Willie the elf, and as such, so long as Slick Willie the elf stays away from Lord Templar Hard Nose, then Lord Templar Hard Nose won't be able to harass him, telepathically or otherwise.

I REALLY LIKE THIS.

I fail to see the issue?

...the issue is that private amos is going to tell lord templar hardnose that slick willie is an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair, in order to get the mission accomplished.

[Desertman]

...the issue is that private amos is going to tell lord templar hardnose that slick willie is an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair, in order to get the mission accomplished.

In which case I would hope Lord Templar Hard Nose, a sponsored role played by what should be a trusted player will do this...

OOC: Hey man, you aren't supposed to try and bypass the Way code restrictions by doing that. Also, as a responsible player, I won't be using that sdesc of that character I have never met to contact them. I will roleplay knowing basically what Slick Willie looks like, but, I won't be contacting that sdesc with the Way.

Then the player of the templar would also file a player complaint with a log.

[Synthesis]

...the issue is that private amos is going to tell lord templar hardnose that slick willie is an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair, in order to get the mission accomplished.

In which case I would hope Lord Templar Hard Nose, a sponsored role played by what should be a trusted player will do this...

OOC: Hey man, you aren't supposed to try and bypass the Way code restrictions by doing that. Also, as a responsible player, I won't be using that sdesc of that character I have never met to contact them. I will roleplay knowing basically what Slick Willie looks like, but, I won't be contacting that sdesc with the Way.

Then the player of the templar would also file a player complaint with a log.

shit in one hand and hope in the other, see which fills up first

[Desertman]

...the issue is that private amos is going to tell lord templar hardnose that slick willie is an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair, in order to get the mission accomplished.

In which case I would hope Lord Templar Hard Nose, a sponsored role played by what should be a trusted player will do this...

OOC: Hey man, you aren't supposed to try and bypass the Way code restrictions by doing that. Also, as a responsible player, I won't be using that sdesc of that character I have never met to contact them. I will roleplay knowing basically what Slick Willie looks like, but, I won't be contacting that sdesc with the Way.

Then the player of the templar would also file a player complaint with a log.

shit in one hand and hope in the other, see which fills up first

I trust our playerbase to follow the rules when they are given direct guidelines and rules.

Will there be a few who slip through the cracks?

Of course. But, for the most part, I'm often amazed at how great our playberbase is about policing its self.

[Synthesis]

...the issue is that private amos is going to tell lord templar hardnose that slick willie is an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair, in order to get the mission accomplished.

In which case I would hope Lord Templar Hard Nose, a sponsored role played by what should be a trusted player will do this...

OOC: Hey man, you aren't supposed to try and bypass the Way code restrictions by doing that. Also, as a responsible player, I won't be using that sdesc of that character I have never met to contact them. I will roleplay knowing basically what Slick Willie looks like, but, I won't be contacting that sdesc with the Way.

Then the player of the templar would also file a player complaint with a log.

shit in one hand and hope in the other, see which fills up first

I trust our playerbase to follow the rules when they are given direct guidelines and rules.

Will there be a few who slip through the cracks?

Of course. But, for the most part, I'm often amazed at how great our playberbase is about policing its self.

The fact that things are fine and dandy within current constraints doesn't mean they will remain so when those variables are changed.  That is, when there is literally no way for a 3rd party to contact someone without knowing their true name or having direct access to their exact sdesc keywords, I guarantee you people will start fudging and delivering those keywords.  It might not be 100%, but there will be a marked increase in it from whatever the current baseline is.  You can have all the faith in the playerbase you want, but I'm talking fundamentals of human psychology here.  If you put people's backs against a wall, they will find ways to justify what they previously regarded as taboo.

[kayza]

Don't agree with the barrier change either..

Basically you want people to not know you are online/around.
I would argue that there is no real benefit to the game to allow everyone to do this.

[Synthesis]

Don't agree with the barrier change either..

Basically you want people to not know you are online/around.
I would argue that there is no real benefit to the game to allow everyone to do this.

One day, you will do something that isn't really -that- heinous, but every good and neutral-aligned PC in the Known World will hunt you mercilessly, and you will have nowhere to hide, because everyone will know exactly what you look like.  They'll know exactly when you're online (sometimes literally within seconds).  You will never have met the vast majority of them.  Oftentimes, they'll even know your guild and subguild, and know what to bring and how to counter it.  If this doesn't at least annoy you, you may not be humanoid.

[Desertman]

The fact that things are fine and dandy within current constraints doesn't mean they will remain so when those variables are changed.

The changing of the variables doesn't mean they necessarily will either.

That is, when there is literally no way for a 3rd party to contact someone without knowing their true name or having direct access to their exact sdesc keywords, I guarantee you people will start fudging and delivering those keywords.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. You have no data to back it up. Granted, I have no data to back up my opinion on the matter either. We will have to agree to disagree because neither of us has the ability to substantiate our claims.

It might not be 100%, but there will be a marked increase in it from whatever the current baseline is.  

I disagree. Right now pretty much everyone does 'Contact Amos' even if they haven't met Amos. I would say at least 90% of the playerbase does this because it is NOT against the rules. Putting in a code to help prevent it, and then adding a set of rules and guidelines that outline the fact it is against the rules (which currently isn't the case) would, in my opinion, actually produce a marked DECREASE in the number of players that do this currently. When everyone does it now, I fail to see how we could see a marked increase, everyone already does it.

You can have all the faith in the playerbase you want, but I'm talking fundamentals of human psychology here.  If you put people's backs against a wall, they will find ways to justify what they previously regarded as taboo.

Fundamentally, it isn't against the rules. It isn't taboo.

They aren't having to justify anything right now. Might a few people start trying to justify it? Yes, but, in theory we would have clear cut rules and guidelines that would prevent people from "justifying" it, without blatantly abusing the code and breaking the rules.

I have faith in our playerbase. I always have. These folks are great and I have seen them intentionally lose longlived characters when they had alternatives because it was the "right thing to do."

I have done it. I've seen other people do it. I have also seen some assholes.

I refuse to let the assholes ruin the fun for everyone else, because the majority of this playerbase is great.  

[Synthesis]

*facepalm*

Whatever, man.  You're the one who bitched about all of this in the first place.  I'm not going to think about it anymore if you're intent on shooting yourself in the foot.

[Desertman]

*facepalm*

Whatever, man.  You're the one who bitched about all of this in the first place.  I'm not going to think about it anymore if you're intent on shooting yourself in the foot.

I'm sorry that is your decision, I was enjoying your insight into the concept and found it most useful in refining my own thought processes on the matter.

[Lizzie]

So, help me out here, I'm totally confused. Here's some pretty -typical- situations. Tell me in simple terms the effect of your proposed changes:

My character is Talia.
Her mate is Dustwhirl. His real name is Malik, but he hasn't even told Talia yet that it isn't really Dustwhirl. He assumes that she assumes it's a nickname.
Her VBFF is Carft.
The templar she's met once, is the blue-eyed pale-skinned Jihaen templar. She hasn't ever spoken to him, she only saw him in the bar talking to someone else, who referred to him simply as Faithful Lord. She has no idea what his name is.

Talia is riding around the Known, and comes across the corpse of the green-skinned young man.

contact dustwhirl

What happens?

contact carft
What happens?

Are you suggesting that dustwhirl not be contactable, even by his own mate, if she uses the name she knows him as, to contact him? By what logic do you come to this suggestion?

Same question for Carft.

And, this templar that Talia doesn't know, but has only seen, has no idea what his name is, should she be able to contact him? Why? Why him, who she hasn't ever spoken to, but not her own mate, who she knows intimately?

[Desertman]

So, help me out here, I'm totally confused. Here's some pretty -typical- situations. Tell me in simple terms the effect of your proposed changes:

My character is Talia.
Her mate is Dustwhirl. His real name is Malik, but he hasn't even told Talia yet that it isn't really Dustwhirl. He assumes that she assumes it's a nickname.
Her VBFF is Carft.
The templar she's met once, is the blue-eyed pale-skinned Jihaen templar. She hasn't ever spoken to him, she only saw him in the bar talking to someone else, who referred to him simply as Faithful Lord. She has no idea what his name is.

Talia is riding around the Known, and comes across the corpse of the green-skinned young man.

contact dustwhirl

What happens?

contact carft
What happens?

Are you suggesting that dustwhirl not be contactable, even by his own mate, if she uses the name she knows him as, to contact him? By what logic do you come to this suggestion?

Same question for Carft.

And, this templar that Talia doesn't know, but has only seen, has no idea what his name is, should she be able to contact him? Why? Why him, who she hasn't ever spoken to, but not her own mate, who she knows intimately?

Nope, in this scenario Talia has met Dustwhirl face to face. You as the player have codedly typed, "addtelepath Dustwhirl man" or whatever you need to type to add Dustwhirl to your list of known friends that you want to be able to contact telepathically.

You are good, because you have met Dustwhirl face to face, you know Dustwhirl. Dustwhirl isn't someone across the world you have never met. You can contact him without any problems.

Your character has met Carft face to face. Same thing applies. You can contact them.

If when you saw that templar you made a point as your PC to look at them and remember them (typed "addtelepath "Templar's desc" name, or whatever the staff decides to code this as) then yes, your PC would remember the templar and be able to contact them too.

The only person you wouldn't be able to contact would be people you have never met face to face, or people that were so unimportant to your PC that your PC didn't bother remembering them well enough to contact them. (You didn't bother to codedly add them to your list of folks to be able to contact.)

[Synthesis]

So, help me out here, I'm totally confused. Here's some pretty -typical- situations. Tell me in simple terms the effect of your proposed changes:

My character is Talia.
Her mate is Dustwhirl. His real name is Malik, but he hasn't even told Talia yet that it isn't really Dustwhirl. He assumes that she assumes it's a nickname.
Her VBFF is Carft.
The templar she's met once, is the blue-eyed pale-skinned Jihaen templar. She hasn't ever spoken to him, she only saw him in the bar talking to someone else, who referred to him simply as Faithful Lord. She has no idea what his name is.

Talia is riding around the Known, and comes across the corpse of the green-skinned young man.

contact dustwhirl

What happens?

contact carft
What happens?

Are you suggesting that dustwhirl not be contactable, even by his own mate, if she uses the name she knows him as, to contact him? By what logic do you come to this suggestion?

Same question for Carft.

And, this templar that Talia doesn't know, but has only seen, has no idea what his name is, should she be able to contact him? Why? Why him, who she hasn't ever spoken to, but not her own mate, who she knows intimately?

1.  If Talia has pinned the keyword 'dustwhirl' to her mate, then 'contact dustwhirl' will contact her mate.  If not, it will do nothing.  As stated previously, I'm done explaining the whys and wherefores of this business.  Maybe someone else will.

2.  If 'carft' is Carft's true name, 'contact carft' will contact carft.  If 'carft' is just a nickname, Talia will have had to pin the nickname 'carft' to him/her.

3.  Talia can contact the templar by sdesc keywords, since she has seen his sdesc.

It's not that complicated.

To address the divergence between the two descriptions:  forcing people to add every potential keyword to every PC they meet would be a giant pain in the ass, and I'm not sure that's what was actually being suggested.

[Desertman]

1.  If Talia has pinned the keyword 'dustwhirl' to her mate, then 'contact dustwhirl' will contact her mate.  If not, it will do nothing.  As stated previously, I'm done explaining the whys and wherefores of this business.  Maybe someone else will.

2.  If 'carft' is Carft's true name, 'contact carft' will contact carft.  If 'carft' is just a nickname, Talia will have had to pin the nickname 'carft' to him/her.

3.  Talia can contact the templar by sdesc keywords, since she has seen his sdesc.

It's not that complicated.

Synth has explained this better than me. Thank you Synth.

Though in a perfect system just knowing their true name wouldn't be enough, you would have to have seen them in person to pin their true name to them as "contactable" to you.

[X-D]

For the record, I have never like that idea.

Mostly because I think me having to work to be able to contact somebody again is lame.

I see no reason at all why the game could not do that automatically.

Been in the same room as Amos, Then you can contact him, either through keywords, nickname whatever.

I would not mind the idea as addition to what we have now, but not replacement.