Never met you, but, you are sexy.

[Desertman]

So for that scenario to work out, Desertman, I have to buy the following:

there's a thief that is simultaneously that skilled and that dumb ICly
there's a noble that is simultaneously that dumb ICly and that twinkish

I grant that this very extreme scenario is a possibility, but in that very extreme scenario, staff would actually be talking to the noble's player.  It really seems like a reach to get to abuse here.

You are looking at the specifics of the hypothetical example and not the scope problem, it could be abused for scenarios big (like the example given above) or small, and is, often.

Yarsimal does something naughty, be it stealing a golden dildo or stealing a piece of fruit.

Someone says, "A friend of a friend of a friend of mine said a guy named Yarsimal stole some fruit. Don't know who he is, but, that is what I heard."

Suddenly there is a five large bounty on a guy named Yarsimal.

Suddenly every bounty hunter in the known suddenly knows exactly what Yarsimal looks like just because they can do "contact yarsimal" and get his sdesc.


Do you not see the problem?

I have played more than a few bounty hunters, and more than a few villians. I have been on both sides. I have both used and been a victim of sdesc sniffing with the Way.

It is extremely useful for hunting someone you have never met before when you only know their name.

It is also an extreme pain in the butt when suddenly the entire world is finding your mind to get your sdesc so they can recognize you instantly when they see you.

I had this happen to me once actually, it is kind of funny...

I was playing a villian. I befriended a new PC who did not know IC that I was in fact a villian. We are sitting at a table talking with two other people who mention that <my character's name> is a villian who does bad things. The newly befriended PC does..."Contact <my character's name>"...They find my mind, they leave my mind...They get real big eyes, look at me, and suddenly, even though they didn't know my PC by that name...They knew instantly I was the villian.

The worst part is, that is completely not against the rules. They can sit and talk with me face to face and never know I am a natorious bad guy, but all they have to do is "contact alias", because they happened to hear the name in a conversation, and suddenly, within the rules of the game, they are allowed to know instantly that I am a villian.

[valeria]

What if it worked the other way.  What if you always saw sdescs:


The muscular, scarred dwarf contacts your mind.

> contact muscular.scarred.dwarf
You contact the muscular scarred dwarf with the Way.

I'd like this.  I'd be embarrassed every time I accidentally contacted the wrong someone over the Way (which happens all the flipping time).  But it would at least give someone who thought someone was inappropriately using the mechanic to sdsesc sniff some detail about the incident from which staff could go to investigate.

But most importantly, it'd give me something to do against the thing I hate the most.

Someone contacts me.
I lose link.
I regain link.
Someone ceases.
I have no idea who contacted me.
Sigh.

[Desertman]

Is there enough of a coded distinction between your name and your hair color?

And yes, there are some cheesy work arounds that you can do to prevent this if you plan on playing a bad guy, but really, I don't want to have to be cheesy.

I could play...

The blue-eyed man and have my name be "Blue".

Would it prevent me from getting sdesc sniffed by people that have never actually met my character just because they hear the name Blue?

Yes.

Is it very cheesy and borderline "code abuse"? Yes

[RogueGunslinger]

People shouldn't treat a look at your sdesc as seeing your face, or you. Your sdesc is a very brief description, and fingering a person based on that should be extremely hard. After all how many tall, scarred men are there, or lanky, blue eyed girls in city-states with hundred of thousands of people.... Fingering someone based on their sdesc alone is pretty unrealistic. You need to LOOK at someone to be able to recognize them well enough to be sure. People should just treat it this way in game.

[Kalai]

Is there enough of a coded distinction between your name and your hair color?

And yes, there are some cheesy work arounds that you can do to prevent this if you plan on playing a bad guy, but really, I don't want to have to be cheesy.

I could play...

The blue-eyed man and have my name be "Blue".

Would it prevent me from getting sdesc sniffed by people that have never actually met my character just because they hear the name Blue?

Yes.

Is it very cheesy and borderline "code abuse". Yes

I mean, in order for the code to tell if you're contacting someone by name or keyword in the first place. You'd have to add either a [name] tag to your names and (added?) nicknames or a [desc] tag to non-name keywords ... and it might in fact indeed prevent folk from playing the blue-haired blue-skinned half-giant named Blue ...

It sounded like an interesting solution that would unfortunately get hampered by having to redesign the keyword implementation to be clunkier.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I've had several pcs whose true name was something in their sdesc, and it doesn't lack for the making sense, believe it or not.

Blue for a halfgiant? Why not, blue hair is pretty distinctive, and if I had a blue-haired kid, I might name them that. It's interesting and different. Same thing with Jade or Henna or Tawny or and number of other words. Providing they make sense as names and are not trying to stretch things to make them less realistic.

Meh.

[Wolfsong]

Merge language code and contact while preserving the article and gender of the sdesc. The lower the skill you have in contact, and the lower skill they have in contact, the more chance you have of seeing something like this:

You contact the gargleunr, gho-tneld man.

Wouldn't /really/ fix the problem, though...

[Synthesis]

When X-D and I agree on something, it's usually a good idea.

Or we're just trying to make it easier to kill you.

But seriously.  Make barrier foolproof vs. mundanes, but make it last only 1 minute or something before you have to put it back up.  That way, you can scoot in, be all sneaky and mysterious with your hood up, then scoot out.

Actually, I'd like to modify this idea.  I just realized that having barrier up constantly actually has some purpose beyond merely keeping people from finding your mind.

Instead of changing how barrier currently works, just add another mundane psi skill that works as a very short-term super-barrier, as described previously.  That way, people who like/need the way barrier works currently don't get screwed, and you've added exactly the functionality you need to prevent hood-contact sdesc sniffing.

[X-D]

Actually, I'd like to modify this idea.  I just realized that having barrier up constantly actually has some purpose beyond merely keeping people from finding your mind.

True enough, but as far as I am concerned they already put code in place to deal with that/those.

I still think the simplest solution is best, simply make max mundane barrier full proof verses max mundane contact.

Possibly give certain non-mundanes a tiny bonus to breaking it and another enough of a bonus so that they remain the same as now...or however they want to go about that to keep that point static.

[RogueGunslinger]

From way-code to the good ol' contact/barrier debate, I love ya'll.

I definitely side with X-D/Synthesis regarding this.

[Maso]

From way-code to the good ol' contact/barrier debate, I love ya'll.

[Maso]

But I'm still going to chime in anyway. *sigh*

WHAT IF GUYS...

Fresh max barrier is foolproof against max contact...but the longer you have it up the more vulnerable you become? So you get your short burst of 'really awesome barrier' if you want super protection for a short amount of time...but you also get your regular long-term 'keep the newbs out' protection...

[Morrolan]

Fresh max barrier is foolproof against max contact...but the longer you have it up the more vulnerable you become?

Degrading barrier? I've never met you, but you are sexy!

[Nyr]

So for that scenario to work out, Desertman, I have to buy the following:

there's a thief that is simultaneously that skilled and that dumb ICly
there's a noble that is simultaneously that dumb ICly and that twinkish

I grant that this very extreme scenario is a possibility, but in that very extreme scenario, staff would actually be talking to the noble's player.  It really seems like a reach to get to abuse here.

You are looking at the specifics of the hypothetical example and not the scope problem, it could be abused for scenarios big (like the example given above) or small, and is, often.

Yarsimal does something naughty, be it stealing a golden dildo or stealing a piece of fruit.

Someone says, "A friend of a friend of a friend of mine said a guy named Yarsimal stole some fruit. Don't know who he is, but, that is what I heard."

Suddenly there is a five large bounty on a guy named Yarsimal.

Suddenly every bounty hunter in the known suddenly knows exactly what Yarsimal looks like just because they can do "contact yarsimal" and get his sdesc.


Do you not see the problem?

I do see that you have an issue with the sdesc-sniffing, but I'm Nyr.  You don't have to convince me that you believe this is an issue; I can definitely take your word for it.  You do have to back away from hyperbolic examples if you want to keep me from trying to poke holes in it, because I will usually jump in just to do that if I see an issue.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Why not have barrier being up automatically obscure your sdesc, with no ability to block anything else? Right now, barrier just blocks psi/skills, but you could add a latent ability for it to block sdesc transfering. Then the end user has the choice to obscure themselves or not, and you'll not spend all day waying NPCs.

[Case]

I think the coolest version is where you only see the keywords you used to contact, or just a name placeholder if you used a name to contact. Can just see that opening up all kinds of awesome.

[Bluefae]

*waves to Desertman* 

Heya!  Been entirely too long.

Thought this thread might be a good read for ya (and anyone else interested):  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38654.0.html

Particularly starting on the second half of the second page, there's *some* of the "official staff opinion" you're looking for (on things coded, it doesn't get much more official than the "M-man" himself).  That having been typed, you'll have to comb through carefully, as there have been some coded changes since then, and the topic wasn't precisely the same.

Hope that helps.  =)

[Desertman]

I do see that you have an issue with the sdesc-sniffing, but I'm Nyr.  You don't have to convince me that you believe this is an issue; I can definitely take your word for it.  You do have to back away from hyperbolic examples if you want to keep me from trying to poke holes in it, because I will usually jump in just to do that if I see an issue.

Well, if the constructive debate portion is no longer an option...

I guess I'm done.

Thanks for the initial responses, they were insightful and helpful.

[kayza]

No.. the current code system prevents the opposite which is FAR worse than what we have now.

And that is abusing anonymity.

Because if you make it code possible to be completely be able to hide who you are beyond hide(which has its own limitations) certain people will abuse it.  And that abuse is far worse than sdesc sniffing.  Which I still don't see how this is a problem.  It's too case by case for me to generalize though. 

[Morrolan]

[derail]

Code Select Expand


The bald, clean shaven man sends to you feelings of pure joy, thoughts in sirihish:
   "This change in code has made a HUGE difference for my enjoyment of this mud, THANKS!"


>feel gross
>think Ick!
>expel

[/derail]

[Wolfsong]

I do not personally like the wording of your suggestion, but I have no complaint with the actual idea behind it.

Feelings shouldn't be -sent- to someone else unless the person sending them is capable of emotional manipulation. Feelings should ...noted? Noticed? There should be a clear distinction between what you understand someone else is feeling and what you yourself are experiencing.

[Delirium]

There is a difference between:

psi *feelings of warmth wash over you* Hey babydoll. (bad)

and

psi *warmth* Hey, babydoll. (okay)

One forces a sensation (bad), the other simply indicates tone/emotion (okay).

[Synthesis]

Arrrgh, I hate it when people start bringing all sorts of ideas (good or not) that are only tangentially (at best) related to the OP.

This thread is just about how to prevent sdesc sniffing, and possibly the meta-issue of whether sdesc sniffing is in fact a problem at all.  The rest of it...please take it elsewhere.  When you shit up a thread with all sorts of extraneous ideas, it makes it unnecessarily difficult to follow the conversation.  Every off-topic post is a nucleation point for more off-topic posts, and eventually the thread becomes a chaotic mess and dies.

To summarize:

1. Is sdesc sniffing a problem?  Staff apparently don't think it's a big deal.  I think habitual players of PCs with a criminal bent tend to disagree.

2. Assuming it's a problem, what solutions have been proposed?
Option A:  Contactor just can't see the sdesc of the target he's contacted.  Pro: this would fix the sniffing problem.  Con: all sorts of problems with sending messages to wrong targets, and potentially with folks intentionally picking keywords at chargen or adding keywords in order to intercept messages intended for "high-value" targets.

Option B:  Make max mundane barrier 100% effective vs. max mundane contact.  Pros: this would fix the sniffing problem, but only if you're proactive about it. Also, it should be a relatively easy code fix, since it sounds like it would just mean jimmying with a mathematical function.  Cons: interference with some other things that can't be discussed.

Option C:  Keep barrier the way it is, but add a "super-barrier" psi skill where the super-barrier is 100% effective vs. contact, but can only be maintained for a short time (either via massive stun drain or short duration).  Pros:  fixes the problem, if you're proactive about it.  Also leaves ordinary barrier functionality intact for those who use barrier for other things.  Cons:  could still potentially interfere with some barrier-related issues, but given the short duration, the impact ought to be minimal.

Option D:  Modify the barrier skill such that barriers are initially 100% effective vs. contact, but slowly lose effectiveness over time.  Pros:  fixes the problem if you're proactive, leaves ordinary barrier functionality intact, doesn't require coding an additional skill, should be relatively easy to code.  Cons: could still interfere with other barrier-related issues.

I think C has the least potential to have negative consequences with respect to related issues.  Option D is a pretty elegant solution, though.

[racurtne]

For what it's worth, having played a PC who was "THA LAW" over a long period in Allanak, (spanning perhaps some dozen blue robes) I believe this happens less than is claimed. Personally I never did this. I may have harassed people wearing hoods indoors (because it's ridiculous and asking for it) but I never once contacted them to see what their sdesc was. I -would-, however, study their mdesc and look very hard for things that would be legitimately visible to me. This is in a setting where they are asking for scrutiny though.

The vast majority of the time, I specifically gave vague descriptions of criminals I saw. I (obviously) pretty rarely caught people. Most of those allowed themselves to be caught. The vast majority who allowed themselves to be caught (assuming it was a forgivable crime) got off relatively unscathed.

**Here is the important part**

Most caught criminals, in my admittedly limited experience (especially since I was not the Templar being wayed said information, and was often just following like a good lapdog) were sold out by other criminals.

TL;DR

Criminals, don't trust other criminals. They lie. They sell you out for their own hide. It may not be victims or law enforcement sdesc sniffing that is causing the perceived problem.

[Synthesis]

Hmm.  I just realized that only option B fixes the problem of someone across the Known World hearing your name, then deciding to contact you to get your sdesc.  In that case, it might be the best option, but would probably have to be combined with some tweaks governing how barrier interacts with other things.  Option D would be a partial solution to this problem, but you'd have to be rigorous with constantly renewing the barrier.  That might be acceptable, though.