Changing the World

[Cind]

Good thread Marko. The macro world realization is something that may not happen for a while with some people, but once it does, you start to appreciate the staff positions on things.

I also agree with Cutthroat. The two citystates have little reason to go to war with each other. Allanak, however, may have a lot of reasons to mobilize against Red Storm. Tuluk may want to strongarm Kurac and the Gypsies into dealing with the kryl problem.

There are a lot of war possibilities that exclude a big one between the two city-states.

Allanak and Red Storm... my god, wouldn't that be fantastic! All that mul action! Both sides desperate in their own ways.

I could, conceivably, see Tuluk strongarming a few clans into fighting the kryl, but to be honest, that western gate seemed pretty strong in the past. Until, of course, the kryl figure out they can climb over the walls, or some burrow under the ground and come out in the sleeping basement of the Firestorm or something. Or, maybe, one kryl shows signs of magick---- depending on whether or not animals in this game's logic have the power to turn 'gicker--- or a 'gicker claims to lead them and shows proof that's at least half-believable--- and Tuluk just goes out of its damn mind and starts a real war against the kryl.

If a war really does begin, I'll definitely be part of that. I love soldier roles to death.

[Dresan]

Maybe I'm just a bit more practical:

I haven't really read what Marco wrote, I'm sure its really good though and true. However there is one fact that is probably the biggest obstacle of it all. The OOC fact that an large scale and meaningful change can takes months and even years to happens.  

WAR?Genocide?Some epic battle?

On the staff side its weeks and weeks of solid work, all while following along for the duration the players are running the plot. On the players side this is months and years of sloooow development which can end instantaneously at any point with the kill command. I'm sure at the bottom of the barrel there are storytellers that wake up one morning on their day off from work, log in, see a tavern full of players that look rather bored and say to themselves, "Hmmm, maybe i should load up some zombies and start the zombie apocalypse." but then they are face with the amount of work on their side, and collaboration with everyone on staff, permissions, schedules, etc, etc. This has been mentioned a couple times on the forums by them.

On the player's side, i got to ask myself: Do i really want to dedicate months and years of my RL to make a small amount of text happen? Umm, No. I don't even want to put the effort into making an application for extended sub-guilds actually.


I'm the McDonalds generation and waiting even a week is way too much boredom for me and not worth it. Unfortunately, games like world of warcraft and league of legends have spoiled me, sorry. For me this game is really slow paced, but its still fun for me to play once in a while and see if anything is going on, much like in the same way i like picking up a good book and reading is, now and then. One of the Arm 2 ideas was that the staff would get better tools to allow staff better tools to help them get stuff done (actually i think it was a brand new code base) might still be implemented some day, that might help or may not.

This is not saying that things don't happen, things can't happen, or that things won't happen, just that these things can take way too much work and time, both on the player and staff side. The end result being that it makes a lot of people not want to bother trying, or become easily discouraged, and thus interesting things don't happen as often as people would like them. Such is the nature of the game, its still often a good read though especially when things finally do end up happening.  

[Dar]

I dont really see the problem in that. All those year long plots is not the only thing that make Arm fun. A simple story, with simple characters, over simple goals, dreams, and aspirations, is just as entertaining. And it's totally independent of staff or anyone really, but your character and whomever really you wish to tap with whatever you're doing.

[Dresan]

Hmm, i should have probably phrased that as 'epic things' rather 'interesting things'. Since Dar is right, the little things in a PC's life can be considered interesting and entertaining at times.

Though i would argue that small stuff eventually gets old (at which point i personally take year long breaks), otherwise these threads would pop up at all. You can only spar, hunt, craft, mud sex and tavern sit for so long before it gets dull, at which point you need to sit back and consider how much time you really want to dedicate into making something happen for your PC. That length of RL time is the biggest obstacle IMO.

[Pale Horse]

Absolutely love the post and examples, Marko.

Real, Zalanthas shaping events are entirely within the realm of possibility for the players..if they are willing to put the blood, sweat, tears and time into making it an reality.   As has been pointed out, the time needed is usually quite a good number of RL months.  It's a fact that long-lived PCs do tend to have more clout than many of our flash-in-the-pan PCs that come and go within the span of three to four weeks.

[Nyr]

This is an entirely reasonable policy, of course.  But even if the term "force"-stored is untrue in the most literal sense, and it should be more accurately described as "staff won't support your PC, and it probably won't be playable anyway, so you will be strongly encouraged to take 'early retirement'," I don't think it rises to level of suggesting that someone is a tinfoil-hatted nutter, when what they're describing seems to be the practical outcome of that policy.

It's may not be a tinfoil-hatted nutter theory, but there's no validity to it.  Based on the actual evidence, it hasn't happened. 

I'll point out the exact thing I'm referring to...THIS THEORY.

characters powerful enough to actually enact world changes were force-stored ...  for being too powerful.

Kismetic brought this up because he likely thought it was true (otherwise, why ask?).  I suspect the reason that he brought it up was because the theory is brought up often enough.  It isn't true.  A couple of other places it has been seen:

i heard sorcerors get force-stored once they attain the ability to level allanak...

Maybe they DO force store PCs that can level cities? In that case, a lot of Krathis are getting mad right now...

We haven't ever done that.  We haven't ever force-stored a PC that was in a powerful position solely because they were in a powerful position.  This includes sorcerers.  This includes templars.  This includes nobles.  There were other reasons involved each time and in one case it was only partially related as far as I recall.  As for the rest, there was another post on that too:

As for limits on PC status, my response is, let the PCs accomplish what the PC accomplishes.  If the PC in game recruits a horde and has PC wielded power to accomplish goals and change the world, shouldn't the staff be excited to help them, rather then feel obligated to remove them for the sake of ease?

We let them accomplish what they accomplish.  We don't prevent PCs from recruiting a horde (in the case of sponsored roles, they do have a cap on direct hirelings, but that's for game balance).  We don't prevent PCs from accumulating social/political power and wielding it.  We don't prevent PCs from accomplishing goals and changing the world.  Experience has taught us that past a certain point, there are diminishing returns in rank.  Higher ranks shouldn't be seen often.  In many cases, they affect so much that they may as well be staff members.  Due to the constraints on the PC and notedly volunteer staff, we do what we can to facilitate the needs of people without having them at those higher ranks.  We're excited to help people accomplish goals, though--just not so excited to be obligated (not feel, be--it's a definite obligation) to do things and react to things at the whim of a PC rather than to assist them.

If someone does enough to threaten a city

This is unrelated.  We won't store someone for being a badass sorcerer/defiler/whatever, or a bender of unspeakable power, or for being a Thrain Ironsword.

rise to the top of their order/house/whatever, its "good on them" not, "better make you an NPC" if you want the game to be truly player driven.

That's a hypothetical you nor I could prove or disprove.  Experience has taught us that your scenario--tried several times--does not work, not for staff, nor for the representation of the gameworld.  We have more to think about than the pleasure of the players that get leadership roles--we have the gameworld and the experience in mind.  We've made the decision--and not lightly--to look at other alternatives so that PCs aren't pigeonholed into roles that limit and restrict their own RP (and so that staff aren't stuck following behind that person with a dustpan and broom, ready to pick up the pieces). 

Go.  Do.  Be.  Discussing the finer points of staff policy and how this prevents you from going, doing, and being...this is cathartic.  However, understand that you (the collective you, those of you that take issue with any staff policy in regards to this or related issues) are pointing out problems you have with the extreme cases that are usually never achieved.

[Kismetic]

I asked because I wasn't sure, but it did seem to me there was a cap on what rank you can achieve.  Maybe the word 'force-store' is abrasive, I don't know.  I would argue that a war isn't necessary or even good for the game.  Furthermore, it doesn't seem to me that artificial power granted to PCs is enough to spark a world war, but marko gives a decent example of how you might go about it.  To my own part, I think when those opportunities to roleplay the strife between the two dominant cultures of the game presented, I played it hard.  I know for sure that I'm not the only one.  These conflicts are in the scope of what we should really be doing, IMO.

I mean, why war, when you can gladiate?

Still, it was a nice read.

[musashi]

The trick to changing the world can be summed up as follows: strength in numbers.

Look you are never going to be powerful enough to beat up Tektolnes and tear down Allanak by yourself. It would mean you're a being of Demi-God like proportions. You can't play a Demi-God.

But if you manage to convince you know ... the entire player base and all of their characters are supporting yours in making the push ... who knows. Staff will have to at least take account of the plot and have the world react accordingly if a vast majority of the characters in game are pushing in that direction. They will more than likely be happy to. Granted ... this may well result in another visit by the Dragon ala the dwarven rebellion of yore but hey ... it will be a hell of a fireworks show. You WILL make it into the history docs, and you will have had a massive effect on the game world; win or lose.

[zanthalandreams]

Just wanted to add that changing the world can also come in more subtle ways of preventing something disastrous or game-changing from happening.    The change, then, is one that very few folks would realize.   Like keeping a tribe from going extinct or using your character's resources to remodel/build/renovate a gathering location from obscurity to popularity. 

I imagine stuff like this happens a lot.  Unlikely you'll get a street or a war named after your PC, but you'll know.  Can and does happen.

[Suhuy]

Brilliant ideas on how to make a game changing event by Marco! On that note, small scale changes can also leave their mark on the game world too.

Many many (many) years ago I played a 'Rinth elf from a virtual street tribe. I had him round up as many NPC rats as he could and toss them into a specific location, frequently RPing "farming" them, in a sense. He constantly had a rat or two on his person and I continued in this vein for some time. For the sheer purpose of being a nuisance to the southsiders, he would sneak (virtual) rats into the taverns and quietly leave them there. I didn't even send in e-mails with logs or wish up about it (though I did bravely make one in game board post about an influx in the rodent population). I just maintained the same RP and went with it, figuring that sooner or later someone would notice. The staff were cool enough to go along with my actions and lo and behold NPC rats started appearing in the Gaj and elsewhere. That really was the limit to the plot I had hoped to start, but it was nice having been the instigator of a rat infestation - and who knows what other plots it may have affected in game.

The same character successfully burnt down a piece of property in Allanak, which has since been rebuilt and turned into a shop of sorts. I doubt it will always happen this way, but I literally just walked into the place and RPed dropping lit torches everywhere. I had an idea the staff were watching me and was using several thinks to indicate why he was so angry, but I wasn't 100% certain. I figured what the hell, I'll RP this out and see what happens, leave the lit torches with appropriate ldescs and if someone later wants to RP with it, great. If not then I'll assume the fire died down on its own without having caused any real damage. To my surprise I received the echo: The room catches on fire! Followed shortly there after with: You are now wanted! I hightailed the hell outta there, only later to return and see that the staff had turned the room into ruins. I was so excited!

In another incarnation I planted a tree sapling in a specific location in the game (where there are no trees) and nurtured it to adulthood during my PC's lifetime. In this instance I did submit RP logs, to Sanvean who was kind enough to assist. To this day the tree still stands there and someone has even updated its desc since then! I'd love to have a hand in changing the game world overall, but even these little changes actually make me smile quite a bit.

Of course you can fail at smaller changes as well. I once had a different 'Rinth elf RP trying to smear yellow dye all over the Dragon Temple. Again, no wishing up or sending in logs. I just created the appropriate ldesc for my character and waited. It wasn't long before an NPC soldier subdued me and threw me into the arena, to die.

Anyway I'm definitely not discouraging players from trying their hands at world changing events, but let's face it - only a few will ever be successful. The game simply couldn't function if we all succeeded in changing the face of Zalanthas! I'm by no means discrediting Marco's post and I do hope that some players follow his example and put in the time and effort. But I would also like to encourage players to try and make smaller changes too. It's nice knowing that PCs have RPed around my tree and I'm fairly certain the store that replaced the ruins of my burnt down building was started up by a player as well. So go carve some graffiti in the walls of Luir's Outpost (and maybe be shot down by NPC archers in the process), or build a small monument in the sands that will serve as a marker for travelers for years to come It doesn't have to be part of some grandiose, long-term plan. Little plans can have visible changes as well.

[Sayyadina]

Were either of these cities to go to war with the other without correcting these problems, it is reasonable to assume they might set in motion their own destruction. Allanak would have to redirect its tiny food resources to armies far away from the city, causing citizens in the walls to starve and act like starving people (rioting, etc). Tuluk would have to worry about leaving forces behind to defend from a possible kryl attack, never truly able to send out a full attack force. In that sense, it is reasonable to assume that the high command of each city has a realistic desire to be non-confrontational. After all, their desire to stay alive trumps their hatred of the other side in a world where survival is everything. All that said, if my hypothetical templar were to start a conflict in the way you described, I would not be particularly surprised if he was executed by his superiors upon return to his city as a means of offering peace to the other side, whether I was successful in starting a war or not.

The two citystates have little reason to go to war with each other.

I whole heartedly agree that roleplaying smaller scale violent conflicts and the repair to the damage of the meteor swarm in Allanak and the Deluge in Tuluk from 22 IC years ago both offer infinite possibilities for conflict and fun.

However, I disagree with the sentiments in the quotes above, which suggest that it's just an accepted fact that war between the city-states would be Bad.  We each individually as players can assume whatever we want OOC'ly and IC'ly, but that doesn't make it fact.  Furthermore, just because a war might seem to be a Bad Idea doesn't mean they don't happen.  For evidence I give you a little thing called... All of human history.  Though, we don't need to look back to the Crusades for specific examples because it turns out that the US of A has provided a few in just the last decade.

The bottom line is, it's realistic that there are differences of opinion on whether war is a good thing (War, what's it good for?), both OOC'ly and IC'ly.  OOC'ly it's fine to question whether a major war would be fun for players or too much work for the staff and so on.  IC'ly, it's also fine to play a PC that opposes war against the opposite city-state for some of the reasons stated in this thread so far.  But whether or not a war happens IC'ly is dependent on the prevailing IC sentiment, and it's up to the leader PCs to sway sentiment one way or the other and to convince the aforementioned "high command" NPCs one way or another.  Maybe Allanak is concerned that Tuluk has WMD and they certainly don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud over Meleth's Circle, right?  The process by which a polity, say the people of Allanak, make a decision about war is called politics.

So, if Marko's templar were summarily executed for implementing his plan outlined above, then clearly his templar's politicking efforts failed and he obviously misjudged the sentiments of his "high command" NPCs, but his failure would not be because of immutable OOC or IC facts that prevent war.

[Kalai]

Hmm, we have some Mongol warrior guilds & subguilds in this game, perhaps Allanak could look into making armies with many of those in order to relieve the supply-line difficulties.  Regardless of which state is historically more similar to the Mongolian empire. I like small changes, myself, those stories are quite cool.

[Cutthroat]

I didn't mean to suggest that war would be bad for the game, or not make sense - and even suggested that some of the problems the city-states are facing might be resolved through war. What I mean to be is a devil's advocate by describing that is that the sort of resistance one will get along the way in the war effort, resistance you'll have to solve if you want to get through to your goal. Those are basic circumstances of the virtual world to take into account, and we have a responsibility to actually consider all of the steps - rather than follow marko's post which, while long, extremely-detailed and well-written, is still oversimplified for this very complicated situation. Bribing and politics probably aren't enough in a situation when you are trying to push up against hundreds of superiors pushing down, although it could be if the situation is right for it. There is probably no real way to tell someone how to take a PC and make him a successful warmonger, simply due to the fact that IC situations DO change as do the opinions of the superiors whose support you need to push such a thing though. And while Earth has had quite a lot of nonsensical wars, Zalanthas typically has wars for resources or territory over its history. It would be bucking a trend to start a war because those artsy-fartsy Tulukis or dirty savage Allanakis simply exist. A trend that, IMO, was set due to a prevailing desire for survival.

Ultimately, with the way things work in this game, you might have to put in months if not years of time just to light the spark needed to start the fire that is a war. And it is potentially possible to pull off, and potentially fun and rewarding. A war can't be bad for the game, just like any reasonable IC action can't be bad for it.

[Feco]

Brilliant ideas on how to make a game changing event by Marco! On that note, small scale changes can also leave their mark on the game world too.

Many many (many) years ago I played a 'Rinth elf from a virtual street tribe. I had him round up as many NPC rats as he could and toss them into a specific location, frequently RPing "farming" them, in a sense. He constantly had a rat or two on his person and I continued in this vein for some time. For the sheer purpose of being a nuisance to the southsiders, he would sneak (virtual) rats into the taverns and quietly leave them there. I didn't even send in e-mails with logs or wish up about it (though I did bravely make one in game board post about an influx in the rodent population). I just maintained the same RP and went with it, figuring that sooner or later someone would notice. The staff were cool enough to go along with my actions and lo and behold NPC rats started appearing in the Gaj and elsewhere. That really was the limit to the plot I had hoped to start, but it was nice having been the instigator of a rat infestation - and who knows what other plots it may have affected in game.

The same character successfully burnt down a piece of property in Allanak, which has since been rebuilt and turned into a shop of sorts. I doubt it will always happen this way, but I literally just walked into the place and RPed dropping lit torches everywhere. I had an idea the staff were watching me and was using several thinks to indicate why he was so angry, but I wasn't 100% certain. I figured what the hell, I'll RP this out and see what happens, leave the lit torches with appropriate ldescs and if someone later wants to RP with it, great. If not then I'll assume the fire died down on its own without having caused any real damage. To my surprise I received the echo: The room catches on fire! Followed shortly there after with: You are now wanted! I hightailed the hell outta there, only later to return and see that the staff had turned the room into ruins. I was so excited!

In another incarnation I planted a tree sapling in a specific location in the game (where there are no trees) and nurtured it to adulthood during my PC's lifetime. In this instance I did submit RP logs, to Sanvean who was kind enough to assist. To this day the tree still stands there and someone has even updated its desc since then! I'd love to have a hand in changing the game world overall, but even these little changes actually make me smile quite a bit.

Of course you can fail at smaller changes as well. I once had a different 'Rinth elf RP trying to smear yellow dye all over the Dragon Temple. Again, no wishing up or sending in logs. I just created the appropriate ldesc for my character and waited. It wasn't long before an NPC soldier subdued me and threw me into the arena, to die.

Anyway I'm definitely not discouraging players from trying their hands at world changing events, but let's face it - only a few will ever be successful. The game simply couldn't function if we all succeeded in changing the face of Zalanthas! I'm by no means discrediting Marco's post and I do hope that some players follow his example and put in the time and effort. But I would also like to encourage players to try and make smaller changes too. It's nice knowing that PCs have RPed around my tree and I'm fairly certain the store that replaced the ruins of my burnt down building was started up by a player as well. So go carve some graffiti in the walls of Luir's Outpost (and maybe be shot down by NPC archers in the process), or build a small monument in the sands that will serve as a marker for travelers for years to come It doesn't have to be part of some grandiose, long-term plan. Little plans can have visible changes as well.

That's pretty damn awesome.

But, reporting to staff and wishing up are always going to be better options!

[Twilight]

For me, long term change the world plots are more about all the activities they generate along the way, rather than accomplishing the actual change the world plot.  Which is why it is fantastic that it takes so long to accomplish them.

If your change the world plot isn't generating activities along the way, giving focus to what activities your character does along the way, it probably shouldn't succeed.

[FantasyWriter]

The trick to changing the world can be summed up as follows: strength in numbers.

Look you are never going to be powerful enough to beat up Tektolnes and tear down Allanak by yourself. It would mean you're a being of Demi-God like proportions. You can't play a Demi-God.

But if you manage to convince you know ... the entire player base and all of their characters are supporting yours in making the push ... who knows. Staff will have to at least take account of the plot and have the world react accordingly if a vast majority of the characters in game are pushing in that direction. They will more than likely be happy to. Granted ... this may well result in another visit by the Dragon ala the dwarven rebellion of yore but hey ... it will be a hell of a fireworks show. You WILL make it into the history docs, and you will have had a massive effect on the game world; win or lose.

While your statement is completely true, IMO. Staff is generally quick to say, "Hey, you're hogging the player base (and rightfully so in most ways). Stop hiring/recruiting/amassing.

It ends up being a catch 22:
The more people you have, the more power you have... you can't have too many PCs, because it offsets the balance of power... you can't use NPCs vNPCs, that's what PCs are for.

[Cutthroat]

The trick to changing the world can be summed up as follows: strength in numbers.

Look you are never going to be powerful enough to beat up Tektolnes and tear down Allanak by yourself. It would mean you're a being of Demi-God like proportions. You can't play a Demi-God.

But if you manage to convince you know ... the entire player base and all of their characters are supporting yours in making the push ... who knows. Staff will have to at least take account of the plot and have the world react accordingly if a vast majority of the characters in game are pushing in that direction. They will more than likely be happy to. Granted ... this may well result in another visit by the Dragon ala the dwarven rebellion of yore but hey ... it will be a hell of a fireworks show. You WILL make it into the history docs, and you will have had a massive effect on the game world; win or lose.

While your statement is completely true, IMO. Staff is generally quick to say, "Hey, you're hogging the player base (and rightfully so in most ways). Stop hiring/recruiting/amassing.

It ends up being a catch 22:
The more people you have, the more power you have... you can't have too many PCs, because it offsets the balance of power... you can't use NPCs vNPCs, that's what PCs are for.

That's a good point, but remedied by recruiting near or up to your maximum and involving other clans, tribes, and groups after that. Not remedied easily, mind you - that involves your leader PC convincing other PCs of what you want to do, and not everyone wants to do the same thing. But it can work. That also has the additional effect of involving other staff from those clans.

[palomar]

The trick to changing the world can be summed up as follows: strength in numbers.

Look you are never going to be powerful enough to beat up Tektolnes and tear down Allanak by yourself. It would mean you're a being of Demi-God like proportions. You can't play a Demi-God.

But if you manage to convince you know ... the entire player base and all of their characters are supporting yours in making the push ... who knows. Staff will have to at least take account of the plot and have the world react accordingly if a vast majority of the characters in game are pushing in that direction. They will more than likely be happy to. Granted ... this may well result in another visit by the Dragon ala the dwarven rebellion of yore but hey ... it will be a hell of a fireworks show. You WILL make it into the history docs, and you will have had a massive effect on the game world; win or lose.

While your statement is completely true, IMO. Staff is generally quick to say, "Hey, you're hogging the player base (and rightfully so in most ways). Stop hiring/recruiting/amassing.

It ends up being a catch 22:
The more people you have, the more power you have... you can't have too many PCs, because it offsets the balance of power... you can't use NPCs vNPCs, that's what PCs are for.

There is a limit to coded hirelings, but there's no limit to the amount of people you can have doing what you want to be done. Different groups and clans can (although rarely) work towards the same goal. The situation in the gameworld back in 2007/2008 would be a fairly accurate example of that, IMO. I know the main plotlines was orchestrated by staff but a lot of what actually happened was influenced by players and their PCs, and to be honest, some of the groups working together weren't forced to do so.

[FantasyWriter]

I was actually thinking outside hired minions in coded clans as well.  It can come in the form of too many 'gicks working together, a small indie merc company where suddenly everyone stops dying, a merchant, indie or clanned who has all the best hunters working for them (clanned or not) etc. Swaying more than 50% of the player base is one of the cities is quite doable, and can turn the table quite quickly, or make you think you have them turned, at least.

[solera]

And while Earth has had quite a lot of nonsensical wars, Zalanthas typically has wars for resources or territory over its history. It would be bucking a trend to start a war because those artsy-fartsy Tulukis or dirty savage Allanakis simply exist. A trend that, IMO, was set due to a prevailing desire for survival.

Ultimately, with the way things work in this game, you might have to put in months if not years of time just to light the spark needed to start the fire that is a war. And it is potentially possible to pull off, and potentially fun and rewarding. A war can't be bad for the game, just like any reasonable IC action can't be bad for it.

Nonsensical wars? For example?

[Is Friday]

Sounds like somebody is too far removed from the real world.

[solera]

Sounds like somebody is too far removed from the real world.

Me? I'm just foraging  for kindling.

[Is Friday]

No. I'm referring to Cutthroat's armchair general comment.

[Kismetic]

I think he's referencing wars fought over Gods, which you have to admit, that is something The Decider would do.

[Cutthroat]

Armchair general? I'm not trying to push expertise I don't have into this thread. I was responding to this:

Furthermore, just because a war might seem to be a Bad Idea doesn't mean they don't happen.  For evidence I give you a little thing called... All of human history.  Though, we don't need to look back to the Crusades for specific examples because it turns out that the US of A has provided a few in just the last decade.

Nonsensical was my way of summing up wars that might seem like they don't have enough of a premise to be a reasonable course of action, even if only in hindsight. I could personally list examples of RL wars that I think were bad for an aggressor to start, but it would defeat the purpose of this thread and derail it.

The take-away point I was trying to make is: while wars with weak reasoning do happen on Earth, they're probably a lot harder and riskier to push through than wars with some tangible gain (territory/resources/etc), in Zalanthas.