Changing the World

[marko]

Nyr, you read my mind, except I think this does deserve its own thread.  So, I'm doing it!  Feel free to delete / remove / and or tell everyone that I am flat out wrong.   

This is a spin-off of the discussion initiated in Random Armageddon thoughts because I think it is important.

I have played Armageddon for a long time and seen many successful attempts at changing the world and even more unsuccessful attempts.   I've been frustrated before by the "staff barrier" and then, over time, learned how to work with staff for what was desired.

I guess the best thing to do is to start at describing the dichotomy that is Armageddon.  For players, Armageddon is all about the interactions with other players.  They do stuff quickly, for the most part live short lives (yes, even if a character lives for 3 RL months that is still a short time frame in game time), and like immediate impacts. 

For the staff, the game is seen at a much higher 'macro' point of view.  They see the game from the standpoint of trying to incorporate everything.  They see the established and entrenched organizations that have thousands of employees or members and recognize that a player character is just one blip amongst hundreds of thousands of living creatures.  To staff, projects tend to be seen over the course of in-game years.  That translates to lots and lots of RL time.

I guess another way to put it is this:  players see events via the unit of a RL day.   Staff sees events via the unit of RL weeks.  The shortest game cycle for staff is a day.  The shortest game cycle for staff is a RL day (and that's super short) while for the player it is a RL hour. 

In my view, staff try to balance the want and desire of the instant gratification of players to a more 'realistic' timeframe from the game's point of view.    They try to do things from within the context of the game's environment taking into consideration all the elements of the game.  Not just the players.
So, in the context of starting a war, many players get frustrated in their attempts to do so.  They think that the staff won't 'support' their efforts or even recognize them.  But, I ask anyone who has ever tried to do something in Armageddon and been prevented from doing so this question:  Did it make sense within the context of the broader picture? 

Let's say a merchant wants to start a 'trade war' with another merchant house.  They go out of their way and kill off "all" of the other merchant house's traders, hunters, gatherers, craftsmen.  Now, from their perspective, not only did they go to war they won their war!  But, what's this?  The other merchant house still exists!  And, wait, nothing seems to have changed.

From the 'big picture' point of view what actually happened?  Well, in a branch office of maybe a dozen (sometimes less than four) people in an multi-national organization of thousands, some guy went off and took it upon themselves to knock off another branch office of a similar size. 

It was a drop in the ocean so to speak.  But, the player sees it as being huge since they 'destroyed' their competition.  From the big picture point of view the situation was extremely minor.  It was annoying yes.  It caused some disruption yes.  But, it wasn't crippling or even significant.  The response from the 'hurt' House is likely to be minimal at best.  After all, at some point in their recent history, they probably had one of their own rogue officers do the same thing.

Usually, what happens at this point is that the player who thinks they won a huge victory for their House gets upset and stores.  Then the player rages about the staff and how the staff don't allow them to do anything. 

But, sometimes, the player who did this keeps doing it and, not only that, gets their superior on board.  Now, instead of it just being a branch office, it's a regional office that is involved.  This is still not the entire organization, but the impact has increased.  If the player keeps it up they will build and build and eventually the Houses will come into full conflict.  Just as an aside, if you think of it from the Merchant House's perspective, why would they want to be in conflict in the first place?

If you can answer that in a persuasive manner you are on your way to extending the conflict.  If you cannot beyond the answer of, 'it's fun' then, chances are, the conflict will settle down upon the death of your PC.

This big picture versus little picture is the single most source of frustration and conflict between staff and players in my opinion.  A lot of staff forget what it's like to be a player and how quickly the game changes for them.  And players usually don't think their actions through or even put them through a simple logic test of, 'does this make sense for the organization to attempt?'

[marko]

So, that all being written, how do you get something done?

It's easier than you may think.  Involve all elements for the action you desire in as realistic a manner as possible.  Let's say I want to start a new clan / organization in a citystate.  I want it to become recognized as a coded clan.  There are a few things that I need to do:  First, I need to start gathering up members.  Once I have at least five who have lived longer than a RL week I would let the staff know that I am working on putting together a clan and invite them to watch if they want to.

At this point, I would work at keeping the organization together and finding it a home.  I would also inform the local authorities of my existence (if it makes sense to do so) and continue to work towards whatever activities I am wanting.  If it is a merchant type organization: I would get the appropriate licenses and look to bribe the heck out of the Templars (knowing full well that chances are the PC Templars are the WRONG type of Templar to be dealing with) in the hopes of having them pass along a recommendation to meet with the appropriate authorities.

At this junction, I would not be surprised to find it slow going.  After all, there are entrenched organizations that already exist and have an extremely high desire to prevent competition of any sort and, as such, have standing activities that would hinder the growth and recognition of anything that resembles competition. 

Let's say my little crew manages to survive for a RL month at this point.  Every week I'd be requesting to meet with appropriate authorities and spending a lot of coin on bribes and gifts to make friends.  If I had to, I'd request meetings with the Merchant Houses to explain what it is I am doing. 
At this point, the staff will, probably, start paying real attention to the group because A) it's lived beyond the initial failure rate of a new organization, and B) it is operating within the context of the game world.  Now, since staff tend to operate in a week unit of time that means if I request to meet with X and the request is granted it will probably happen NEXT WEEK.  At that point, whatever is discussed and decided upon in the INITIAL meeting will take at least a WEEK to happen.

So, at this time, we're looking at least two more weeks to do whatever initial stuffages need to be done.  And on it goes.  But, within three months and the organization still existing, it is possible that the group is either recognized or well on its way to being so.

[marko]

War Scenario

The specific desire to start a war was what prompted this so I wanted to really dig my claws into how I would get it done.  
First, I would app for a Templar role.  As part of my application I would make it clear that, in time, I would like to increase conflict between the two Citystates with the hopes of stirring up a war.

Let's assume my Templar is approved.  

Does this mean that it's time to go to war?  No, nowhere near.  The game world is not at the brink of war and it would be foolhardy of me to think that my lowly Templar has the authority to start a war.  He does not.

A Templar, when they start, is just like any other player when they start a small fish.  Now, in the player pond, that small fish is huge but in the overall lake of the Citystate the fish is, really, quite small.  That means my objective to start is twofold:  Become a larger fish in the lake and to promote the conflict as best I can.  Happily, by supporting the conflict I will be growing my fish-ness within the lake.

I start by hiring a few soldiers.  Like.  Two.  Maybe three.  Why so few you might ask?  Because, realistically, I'm still a small fish and I won't be able to send my soldiers to war anyway.  Instead, I am going to start grooming them to become sergeants and lieutenants.  I am going to brainwash them into supporting my view that the other city is super evil and needs to be destroyed.  Essentially, I'm going to get them to buy into my idea of war and start actively working towards it as well.

Next, I will do my templaring to the best of my abilities.  I will use every single possible opportunity to bribe my superiors.  If I find a steel halfsword I will give it to my superior.  If I find ten thousand obsidian I will give it to my superior or, if they do not like obsidian, I will spend it on something that I can give to my superior that they love.  What am I trying to accomplish?  I want my Templar to become the go-to Templar amongst my Templar PC peers.
After working this angle for awhile and getting recognized for my awesome Templarness, I'll be a small fish in a large lake.  Wait?  What?  I'm still a small fish?  Yes.  I am still nothing.  Oh sure, I may have been the best Templar in FOREVER to grace the City and I have been around FOREVER (like, two whole RL months) but, honestly, in the grand scheme of things I'm still a nothing.  Yes long lived PCs in Houses your PC is still a baby in the larger organization.  You may be a slightly larger baby than all the other PCs but you are still a baby.  Please keep that in mind and you'll be much happier.
Now is the time to start flexing my scales and using my noggin to get what I want.  

Because my character has spent time cultivating his superiors he can request a meeting to discuss his ideas.  My character will propose a strike force / exploratory force to probe the defenses of the opposing City.  My character will frame the proposal in the form that it will make MY SUPERIOR look good.  I would even suggest that, if desired, I could make the proposal on their behalf to their superiors – that depends on my superior's personality.
To put things into perspective at this point:  I'll use a corporate structure as a guide.  Most NPCs that are the superiors to your PC are still only middle managers at best.  They are not senior managers and they are definitely not executives.   So, while you may win over your PC's superior that's only moving up the chain of command and you are not at the top yet.

I get authorization to do my little trip.  I recruit a few more people into the military and promote my original crew to be their superiors.  I tell my original crew that it is time to start acting and they have at it.  The first minor event will probably be a total-nothing event but that is good.  That proves that the opposing city is asleep at the skimmer.  It is time to probe a little further.

I may take this opportunity to go a little further than my character was authorized to do.  Like, attack the gate of the opposing city and run.  After all, it's easier to beg forgiveness than ask for permission.  So, my little fish will be ready with a BIG GIFT that my superior can use to GIFT their superior.  
And hey, now the other City Templars will be roused.  They'll want to GET BACK at my city.  Okay, this isn't war yet, but we're into skirmishes.  
Skirmishes lead to deaths.  Deaths need to be avenged.  New PCs take the place of old PCs.  More death.  Constant involvement of superiors.  Strike at 'logical' targets like armed camps.  Set up mini-RPTs.  And, yes, over time, there will be war.

Plus, since I'm a conscientious player (really, I am) I would offer to write up new room descriptions, new NPCs, new whatever is needed.  The more of the labour work that can be taken off of the shoulders of the staff and done by yourself the more likely the chances of being successful.

Constant communication.  Constant motion towards the goal.  Constant involvement of not just other PCs but also NPCs makes the outcome easily achieveable. Lots of updates to the staff. Keep track of the project and do as much as you can while always remembering where you are in the big picture.

You can change the course of history.  I've done it as a player.  

[Semper]

What's frustrating as a leader PC is that what others want is not always possible with the present IG circumstances. There might be several plot rejections from staff because of this, but as Marko rather accurately stated, it might take RL MONTHS before a larger plot even gets picked up even if the timing is ideal IG. During that time, lot's of players get discouraged and store or die, and large world-scale plots get cut short.

[Cutthroat]

These write-ups are great, marko, but I wanted to point something out that is missing in your war scenario, that I think people tend to forget when they express their wishes for a war in-game. It feels like some players on the forums are ignoring new and fun situations because they long for re-dos of old situations, when those new situations are perfectly good to pursue for plots.

Both cities have domestic issues. Tuluk was only relatively recently hit by a giant wave of water and kryl appeared. Allanak lost its farms to a fire attack and volcano. There may or may not be plenty more problems than those, in each city. And staff have said that the actions that brought those changes about were started by players, so it is not necessarily a restriction without reasonable explanation.

Were either of these cities to go to war with the other without correcting these problems, it is reasonable to assume they might set in motion their own destruction. Allanak would have to redirect its tiny food resources to armies far away from the city, causing citizens in the walls to starve and act like starving people (rioting, etc). Tuluk would have to worry about leaving forces behind to defend from a possible kryl attack, never truly able to send out a full attack force. In that sense, it is reasonable to assume that the high command of each city has a realistic desire to be non-confrontational. After all, their desire to stay alive trumps their hatred of the other side in a world where survival is everything. All that said, if my hypothetical templar were to start a conflict in the way you described, I would not be particularly surprised if he was executed by his superiors upon return to his city as a means of offering peace to the other side, whether I was successful in starting a war or not.

That said, solving those domestic issues can be as rewarding, if not more so, than a war. Perhaps they can even be resolved through war, killing two birds with one stone. The required actions to solve these issues can and will cause conflict with all kinds of interested parties. And, these plots tend to be a fair bit more accessible than a war plot, simply because of relative scale.

[Yam]

Good thread Marko. The macro world realization is something that may not happen for a while with some people, but once it does, you start to appreciate the staff positions on things.

I also agree with Cutthroat. The two citystates have little reason to go to war with each other. Allanak, however, may have a lot of reasons to mobilize against Red Storm. Tuluk may want to strongarm Kurac and the Gypsies into dealing with the kryl problem.

There are a lot of war possibilities that exclude a big one between the two city-states.

[Feco]

Great writeup.

For those of those reading, do remember to try and pull some of the lessons about communication and paying attention to detail.  The specifics about pleasing superiors is just a story, or an example, or what marko would do.  These are not the only ways to do it.

Being a really awesome Templar with a war in mind isn't the *only* way to start a war, for example.  It's about staying in communication.  It's about remembering the vNPC world.  You could start a rebellion, you could convince other PC Templar to start a war, you could *trick* other people to start war.

I think a harsh reality is that generally, it is going to be the more hardcore players who start major conflicts or world changes.  This doesn't mean that a more casual, or less hardcore player can't make changes.  They influence the outcome of the conflicts, huge changes, new clans, etc.

[Kismetic]

Except ...  I thought characters powerful enough to actually enact world changes were force-stored ...  for being too powerful.  That's not true?

[Nyr]

Except ...  I thought characters powerful enough to actually enact world changes were force-stored ...  for being too powerful.  That's not true?

Depends on your perspective, I suppose...

[Kismetic]

Except ...  I thought characters powerful enough to actually enact world changes were force-stored ...  for being too powerful.  That's not true?

Depends on your perspective, I suppose...

In this hilarious pic, you would be the unseen Mel Gibson?  Zing.

It's a serious question, and I'm not saying that is what will happen, but does it not happen?

[Dakota]

I agree with a lot of whats been written here..

But I want to point out something that might affect another reason why their hasn't been a war (or even a 'hot' cold war):  Since april or May of 2010 when I started arm, across all my PCs, I've never seen any visible, notable friction between the two City States.. Even from a peon level.

[Nyr]

It does not happen.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40747.0.html

...unless it happened to you.

Then it did, or at least that's what you'll tell everyone else.  

That's why I posted the pic.

[Kismetic]

No, I've never stored, much less been stored.  That's just one of those things I thought happened when a character was more powerful than the game bounds.  Thanks for clarifying!  I would contribute something meaningful, but its clear that I'm still learning.

Good thread, marko!

[Barsook]

Good thread, marko!

[Nyr]

I agree with a lot of whats been written here..

But I want to point out something that might affect another reason why their hasn't been a war (or even a 'hot' cold war):  Since april or May of 2010 when I started arm, across all my PCs, I've never seen any visible, notable friction between the two City States.. Even from a peon level.

Look at it this way:  100% of your play makes up 10% of the history of the game as players have experienced it (roughly).  90% of the game's history as players have experienced it occurred before you played the game.  During that time before you, there was one obvious war, one obvious occupation as the result of a series of battles, and a few large troop movements and sorties.  Each one of those (barring the IC years of the Occupation) took up only a short period of time in real life.  If you had started in 2003 (I think shortly after the Occupation) and posted this in 2005, you'd be pointing out that you missed the Occupation and want more war.  I'm not pointing out that you're getting a war tomorrow, but as far as statistics go, you are in the trough between the last noteworthy and world-affecting (or city-state-affecting, or clan affecting, or PC-affecting--it doesn't all have to always involve the entire Known and just drag you along with it) event and the next one, whatever it may be.

[Potaje]

That said, solving those domestic issues can be as rewarding, if not more so, than a war. Perhaps they can even be resolved through war, killing two birds with one stone. The required actions to solve these issues can and will cause conflict with all kinds of interested parties. And, these plots tend to be a fair bit more accessible than a war plot, simply because of relative scale.

I agree with Cutthroat and add that in the thought of gearing for war, one must start with the basic needs to sustain a conflict. I recall the joy I oocly had in a past character as we worked toward stabalzing the infrastructure, which was the basis for attaining a future goal.

It was icly rewarding as well, and I was not even in a position of authority, but was simply a peon that took the active plot those above me had to work with and presented to them functional ideas, they then took those ideas and road mapped them further sending them up the chain. Eventually those ideas became part of the newer frame work, which now has established a developing foundation for the growth of newer, larger plots to develop.


[edited to add] Sometimes you have to think small to achieve big.

[Dar]

My greatest, greatest compliments to Marko for this post.

[marko]

I agree with all the follow-up responses.

You do -not- have to love or bribe your superior NPCs.  In fact, if you treat them the way your character would treat them you will be far better off.  I once had a character who plotted to kill his superior and take their position.  Unfortunately, one of my character's minions betrayed my character for their own personal benefit....  Heck, sometimes you can conspire with one NPC against another one.

But, the biggest thing to keep in mind is to keep the communication channel open to the staff.  Let them know what is going on!

One of the very first major IC events I planned for Armageddon years ago (1999 I think) I made the terrible mistake of -not- submitting a full list of all the planned activities.  Turns out, the day of the event, I couldn't even log in.. whups!  I learned.

I didn't really want to address the current situation in the game world and just focused on one way I would go about starting a war.  There are literally millions of possible paths to get it done.  These are just examples for the sole purpose of trying to show off how our characters are minor characters when it comes to the big picture.  That is not to say that our characters are not hugely important when it comes to the player picture.  Within the player pond our characters can be huge sharks... just don't be upset if some sharks come out of the woodwork to deal with your's.  

In other words, always remember that there is a virtual world and that virtual world is tracked by the staff.  When you interact with it in a manner that is fitting to your character you will find the game amazingly rich and detailed.  If you try to overplay your hand (I have seen this a lot from sponsored blood roles of all Houses, noble, merchant, otherwise) then you will probably become frustrated by 'staff shutting me down.'  When in doubt, ask your staff what your character could accomplish at the moment.

To get stuff done keep working on the goal and keep everyone informed plus keep interacting with the -entire- world and not just the players.

[valeria]

I think the hardest thing for me with my first few leader-type characters was realizing how much blood sweat and tears actually needs to be poured into a big goal, realistically.

So here's Val's world-changing plot philosophy/mantra:

Be like a dwarf with a focus.  You've got your goal.  It's probably going to take your character's whole life and you might not accomplish it, but you've just got to accept that as the nature of things.  It's the striving for it that's where the action is at.  So you have to break it down into medium length goals (of realistically maybe an IC decade or three a piece), and then short term goals (to be accomplished within a couple of years), and then short-term subgoals (to be worked on presently).  You can't fold in the face of challenges, even if they look insurmountable.  You can't afford to let yourself get discouraged.  And maybe some day you'll change the world, but what you're doing right now is the most important thing.  Have fun doing it.

[musashi]

I got force stored for being too powerful >_>

> troll Nyr

You begin approaching your target ...

[Case]

I don't know if every character I play wants to change the world. Some are too busy trying to find their place within the here and now, or are content.

[catchall]

It does not happen.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40747.0.html

...unless it happened to you.

Then it did, or at least that's what you'll tell everyone else.  

That's why I posted the pic.

I'm a bit confused, because in the thread you posted, you offer this (presumably your purpose in posting the link to that thread):

There's a point of diminishing returns, when promoting someone past a certain point means an excessive amount of staff work that we will not engage in (instead of providing assistance or fleshing out the world around that PC, we'd end up having to have a countering force of equal rank attempting to thwart their PCs, so that the rest of the gameworld is represented) and an excessive amount of changes to playing style that most players wouldn't subject themselves to (GMH Heads aren't scary if they show up at the Retreat every day to drink with their buddies).  At that point, we usually will engage in dialogue with the player about storage and their PC turning NPC/vNPC as part of the clan.  This has been done several times.

This is an entirely reasonable policy, of course.  But even if the term "force"-stored is untrue in the most literal sense, and it should be more accurately described as "staff won't support your PC, and it probably won't be playable anyway, so you will be strongly encouraged to take 'early retirement'," I don't think it rises to level of suggesting that someone is a tinfoil-hatted nutter, when what they're describing seems to be the practical outcome of that policy.

[Dar]

My personal opinion. Perhaps I am wrong, but that's how I always viewed Arm personally.

I still do not know who is more powerful and influencial. A noble, or a noble's aide. You do not need to be a head honcho and wield massive authority (And risk storage) to achieve what you want. You wont get credit for everything you've done, but you can certainly "try" to do everything you want done.

[catchall]

Also, I'd like to add, I kind of love the idea of getting force-stored for being too powerful for the game world to handle you.  If that's not winning Armageddon, I don't know what is.

[Semper]

How I understand it, the staff does not "force"-store you without enough warning regarding the chosen progress of your character. They will most likely tell you that if you do this plot, and it succeeds, you will probably get a promotion. That promotion means "you will be less in the public, and things might be boring as a result" or "documentation of your clan will have your character become secluded in *secret* place". If you still decide to do the plot, I don't think it's really a "force" storage.

On the flip side, I can recall plenty of PCs who have made it to pretty powerful positions. A Red Robe Templar, High Faithful, a mid-tier noble (not a junior noble any more), leader of an alliance of clans... etc.