Changing the World

[marko]

Nyr, you read my mind, except I think this does deserve its own thread.  So, I'm doing it!  Feel free to delete / remove / and or tell everyone that I am flat out wrong.   

This is a spin-off of the discussion initiated in Random Armageddon thoughts because I think it is important.

I have played Armageddon for a long time and seen many successful attempts at changing the world and even more unsuccessful attempts.   I've been frustrated before by the "staff barrier" and then, over time, learned how to work with staff for what was desired.

I guess the best thing to do is to start at describing the dichotomy that is Armageddon.  For players, Armageddon is all about the interactions with other players.  They do stuff quickly, for the most part live short lives (yes, even if a character lives for 3 RL months that is still a short time frame in game time), and like immediate impacts. 

For the staff, the game is seen at a much higher 'macro' point of view.  They see the game from the standpoint of trying to incorporate everything.  They see the established and entrenched organizations that have thousands of employees or members and recognize that a player character is just one blip amongst hundreds of thousands of living creatures.  To staff, projects tend to be seen over the course of in-game years.  That translates to lots and lots of RL time.

I guess another way to put it is this:  players see events via the unit of a RL day.   Staff sees events via the unit of RL weeks.  The shortest game cycle for staff is a day.  The shortest game cycle for staff is a RL day (and that's super short) while for the player it is a RL hour. 

In my view, staff try to balance the want and desire of the instant gratification of players to a more 'realistic' timeframe from the game's point of view.    They try to do things from within the context of the game's environment taking into consideration all the elements of the game.  Not just the players.
So, in the context of starting a war, many players get frustrated in their attempts to do so.  They think that the staff won't 'support' their efforts or even recognize them.  But, I ask anyone who has ever tried to do something in Armageddon and been prevented from doing so this question:  Did it make sense within the context of the broader picture? 

Let's say a merchant wants to start a 'trade war' with another merchant house.  They go out of their way and kill off "all" of the other merchant house's traders, hunters, gatherers, craftsmen.  Now, from their perspective, not only did they go to war they won their war!  But, what's this?  The other merchant house still exists!  And, wait, nothing seems to have changed.

From the 'big picture' point of view what actually happened?  Well, in a branch office of maybe a dozen (sometimes less than four) people in an multi-national organization of thousands, some guy went off and took it upon themselves to knock off another branch office of a similar size. 

It was a drop in the ocean so to speak.  But, the player sees it as being huge since they 'destroyed' their competition.  From the big picture point of view the situation was extremely minor.  It was annoying yes.  It caused some disruption yes.  But, it wasn't crippling or even significant.  The response from the 'hurt' House is likely to be minimal at best.  After all, at some point in their recent history, they probably had one of their own rogue officers do the same thing.

Usually, what happens at this point is that the player who thinks they won a huge victory for their House gets upset and stores.  Then the player rages about the staff and how the staff don't allow them to do anything. 

But, sometimes, the player who did this keeps doing it and, not only that, gets their superior on board.  Now, instead of it just being a branch office, it's a regional office that is involved.  This is still not the entire organization, but the impact has increased.  If the player keeps it up they will build and build and eventually the Houses will come into full conflict.  Just as an aside, if you think of it from the Merchant House's perspective, why would they want to be in conflict in the first place?

If you can answer that in a persuasive manner you are on your way to extending the conflict.  If you cannot beyond the answer of, 'it's fun' then, chances are, the conflict will settle down upon the death of your PC.

This big picture versus little picture is the single most source of frustration and conflict between staff and players in my opinion.  A lot of staff forget what it's like to be a player and how quickly the game changes for them.  And players usually don't think their actions through or even put them through a simple logic test of, 'does this make sense for the organization to attempt?'

[marko]

So, that all being written, how do you get something done?

It's easier than you may think.  Involve all elements for the action you desire in as realistic a manner as possible.  Let's say I want to start a new clan / organization in a citystate.  I want it to become recognized as a coded clan.  There are a few things that I need to do:  First, I need to start gathering up members.  Once I have at least five who have lived longer than a RL week I would let the staff know that I am working on putting together a clan and invite them to watch if they want to.

At this point, I would work at keeping the organization together and finding it a home.  I would also inform the local authorities of my existence (if it makes sense to do so) and continue to work towards whatever activities I am wanting.  If it is a merchant type organization: I would get the appropriate licenses and look to bribe the heck out of the Templars (knowing full well that chances are the PC Templars are the WRONG type of Templar to be dealing with) in the hopes of having them pass along a recommendation to meet with the appropriate authorities.

At this junction, I would not be surprised to find it slow going.  After all, there are entrenched organizations that already exist and have an extremely high desire to prevent competition of any sort and, as such, have standing activities that would hinder the growth and recognition of anything that resembles competition. 

Let's say my little crew manages to survive for a RL month at this point.  Every week I'd be requesting to meet with appropriate authorities and spending a lot of coin on bribes and gifts to make friends.  If I had to, I'd request meetings with the Merchant Houses to explain what it is I am doing. 
At this point, the staff will, probably, start paying real attention to the group because A) it's lived beyond the initial failure rate of a new organization, and B) it is operating within the context of the game world.  Now, since staff tend to operate in a week unit of time that means if I request to meet with X and the request is granted it will probably happen NEXT WEEK.  At that point, whatever is discussed and decided upon in the INITIAL meeting will take at least a WEEK to happen.

So, at this time, we're looking at least two more weeks to do whatever initial stuffages need to be done.  And on it goes.  But, within three months and the organization still existing, it is possible that the group is either recognized or well on its way to being so.

[marko]

War Scenario

The specific desire to start a war was what prompted this so I wanted to really dig my claws into how I would get it done.  
First, I would app for a Templar role.  As part of my application I would make it clear that, in time, I would like to increase conflict between the two Citystates with the hopes of stirring up a war.

Let's assume my Templar is approved.  

Does this mean that it's time to go to war?  No, nowhere near.  The game world is not at the brink of war and it would be foolhardy of me to think that my lowly Templar has the authority to start a war.  He does not.

A Templar, when they start, is just like any other player when they start a small fish.  Now, in the player pond, that small fish is huge but in the overall lake of the Citystate the fish is, really, quite small.  That means my objective to start is twofold:  Become a larger fish in the lake and to promote the conflict as best I can.  Happily, by supporting the conflict I will be growing my fish-ness within the lake.

I start by hiring a few soldiers.  Like.  Two.  Maybe three.  Why so few you might ask?  Because, realistically, I'm still a small fish and I won't be able to send my soldiers to war anyway.  Instead, I am going to start grooming them to become sergeants and lieutenants.  I am going to brainwash them into supporting my view that the other city is super evil and needs to be destroyed.  Essentially, I'm going to get them to buy into my idea of war and start actively working towards it as well.

Next, I will do my templaring to the best of my abilities.  I will use every single possible opportunity to bribe my superiors.  If I find a steel halfsword I will give it to my superior.  If I find ten thousand obsidian I will give it to my superior or, if they do not like obsidian, I will spend it on something that I can give to my superior that they love.  What am I trying to accomplish?  I want my Templar to become the go-to Templar amongst my Templar PC peers.
After working this angle for awhile and getting recognized for my awesome Templarness, I'll be a small fish in a large lake.  Wait?  What?  I'm still a small fish?  Yes.  I am still nothing.  Oh sure, I may have been the best Templar in FOREVER to grace the City and I have been around FOREVER (like, two whole RL months) but, honestly, in the grand scheme of things I'm still a nothing.  Yes long lived PCs in Houses your PC is still a baby in the larger organization.  You may be a slightly larger baby than all the other PCs but you are still a baby.  Please keep that in mind and you'll be much happier.
Now is the time to start flexing my scales and using my noggin to get what I want.  

Because my character has spent time cultivating his superiors he can request a meeting to discuss his ideas.  My character will propose a strike force / exploratory force to probe the defenses of the opposing City.  My character will frame the proposal in the form that it will make MY SUPERIOR look good.  I would even suggest that, if desired, I could make the proposal on their behalf to their superiors – that depends on my superior's personality.
To put things into perspective at this point:  I'll use a corporate structure as a guide.  Most NPCs that are the superiors to your PC are still only middle managers at best.  They are not senior managers and they are definitely not executives.   So, while you may win over your PC's superior that's only moving up the chain of command and you are not at the top yet.

I get authorization to do my little trip.  I recruit a few more people into the military and promote my original crew to be their superiors.  I tell my original crew that it is time to start acting and they have at it.  The first minor event will probably be a total-nothing event but that is good.  That proves that the opposing city is asleep at the skimmer.  It is time to probe a little further.

I may take this opportunity to go a little further than my character was authorized to do.  Like, attack the gate of the opposing city and run.  After all, it's easier to beg forgiveness than ask for permission.  So, my little fish will be ready with a BIG GIFT that my superior can use to GIFT their superior.  
And hey, now the other City Templars will be roused.  They'll want to GET BACK at my city.  Okay, this isn't war yet, but we're into skirmishes.  
Skirmishes lead to deaths.  Deaths need to be avenged.  New PCs take the place of old PCs.  More death.  Constant involvement of superiors.  Strike at 'logical' targets like armed camps.  Set up mini-RPTs.  And, yes, over time, there will be war.

Plus, since I'm a conscientious player (really, I am) I would offer to write up new room descriptions, new NPCs, new whatever is needed.  The more of the labour work that can be taken off of the shoulders of the staff and done by yourself the more likely the chances of being successful.

Constant communication.  Constant motion towards the goal.  Constant involvement of not just other PCs but also NPCs makes the outcome easily achieveable. Lots of updates to the staff. Keep track of the project and do as much as you can while always remembering where you are in the big picture.

You can change the course of history.  I've done it as a player.  

[Semper]

What's frustrating as a leader PC is that what others want is not always possible with the present IG circumstances. There might be several plot rejections from staff because of this, but as Marko rather accurately stated, it might take RL MONTHS before a larger plot even gets picked up even if the timing is ideal IG. During that time, lot's of players get discouraged and store or die, and large world-scale plots get cut short.

[Cutthroat]

These write-ups are great, marko, but I wanted to point something out that is missing in your war scenario, that I think people tend to forget when they express their wishes for a war in-game. It feels like some players on the forums are ignoring new and fun situations because they long for re-dos of old situations, when those new situations are perfectly good to pursue for plots.

Both cities have domestic issues. Tuluk was only relatively recently hit by a giant wave of water and kryl appeared. Allanak lost its farms to a fire attack and volcano. There may or may not be plenty more problems than those, in each city. And staff have said that the actions that brought those changes about were started by players, so it is not necessarily a restriction without reasonable explanation.

Were either of these cities to go to war with the other without correcting these problems, it is reasonable to assume they might set in motion their own destruction. Allanak would have to redirect its tiny food resources to armies far away from the city, causing citizens in the walls to starve and act like starving people (rioting, etc). Tuluk would have to worry about leaving forces behind to defend from a possible kryl attack, never truly able to send out a full attack force. In that sense, it is reasonable to assume that the high command of each city has a realistic desire to be non-confrontational. After all, their desire to stay alive trumps their hatred of the other side in a world where survival is everything. All that said, if my hypothetical templar were to start a conflict in the way you described, I would not be particularly surprised if he was executed by his superiors upon return to his city as a means of offering peace to the other side, whether I was successful in starting a war or not.

That said, solving those domestic issues can be as rewarding, if not more so, than a war. Perhaps they can even be resolved through war, killing two birds with one stone. The required actions to solve these issues can and will cause conflict with all kinds of interested parties. And, these plots tend to be a fair bit more accessible than a war plot, simply because of relative scale.

[Yam]

Good thread Marko. The macro world realization is something that may not happen for a while with some people, but once it does, you start to appreciate the staff positions on things.

I also agree with Cutthroat. The two citystates have little reason to go to war with each other. Allanak, however, may have a lot of reasons to mobilize against Red Storm. Tuluk may want to strongarm Kurac and the Gypsies into dealing with the kryl problem.

There are a lot of war possibilities that exclude a big one between the two city-states.

[Feco]

Great writeup.

For those of those reading, do remember to try and pull some of the lessons about communication and paying attention to detail.  The specifics about pleasing superiors is just a story, or an example, or what marko would do.  These are not the only ways to do it.

Being a really awesome Templar with a war in mind isn't the *only* way to start a war, for example.  It's about staying in communication.  It's about remembering the vNPC world.  You could start a rebellion, you could convince other PC Templar to start a war, you could *trick* other people to start war.

I think a harsh reality is that generally, it is going to be the more hardcore players who start major conflicts or world changes.  This doesn't mean that a more casual, or less hardcore player can't make changes.  They influence the outcome of the conflicts, huge changes, new clans, etc.

[Kismetic]

Except ...  I thought characters powerful enough to actually enact world changes were force-stored ...  for being too powerful.  That's not true?

[Nyr]

Except ...  I thought characters powerful enough to actually enact world changes were force-stored ...  for being too powerful.  That's not true?

Depends on your perspective, I suppose...

[Kismetic]

Except ...  I thought characters powerful enough to actually enact world changes were force-stored ...  for being too powerful.  That's not true?

Depends on your perspective, I suppose...

In this hilarious pic, you would be the unseen Mel Gibson?  Zing.

It's a serious question, and I'm not saying that is what will happen, but does it not happen?

[Dakota]

I agree with a lot of whats been written here..

But I want to point out something that might affect another reason why their hasn't been a war (or even a 'hot' cold war):  Since april or May of 2010 when I started arm, across all my PCs, I've never seen any visible, notable friction between the two City States.. Even from a peon level.

[Nyr]

It does not happen.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40747.0.html

...unless it happened to you.

Then it did, or at least that's what you'll tell everyone else.  

That's why I posted the pic.

[Kismetic]

No, I've never stored, much less been stored.  That's just one of those things I thought happened when a character was more powerful than the game bounds.  Thanks for clarifying!  I would contribute something meaningful, but its clear that I'm still learning.

Good thread, marko!

[Barsook]

Good thread, marko!

[Nyr]

I agree with a lot of whats been written here..

But I want to point out something that might affect another reason why their hasn't been a war (or even a 'hot' cold war):  Since april or May of 2010 when I started arm, across all my PCs, I've never seen any visible, notable friction between the two City States.. Even from a peon level.

Look at it this way:  100% of your play makes up 10% of the history of the game as players have experienced it (roughly).  90% of the game's history as players have experienced it occurred before you played the game.  During that time before you, there was one obvious war, one obvious occupation as the result of a series of battles, and a few large troop movements and sorties.  Each one of those (barring the IC years of the Occupation) took up only a short period of time in real life.  If you had started in 2003 (I think shortly after the Occupation) and posted this in 2005, you'd be pointing out that you missed the Occupation and want more war.  I'm not pointing out that you're getting a war tomorrow, but as far as statistics go, you are in the trough between the last noteworthy and world-affecting (or city-state-affecting, or clan affecting, or PC-affecting--it doesn't all have to always involve the entire Known and just drag you along with it) event and the next one, whatever it may be.

[Potaje]

That said, solving those domestic issues can be as rewarding, if not more so, than a war. Perhaps they can even be resolved through war, killing two birds with one stone. The required actions to solve these issues can and will cause conflict with all kinds of interested parties. And, these plots tend to be a fair bit more accessible than a war plot, simply because of relative scale.

I agree with Cutthroat and add that in the thought of gearing for war, one must start with the basic needs to sustain a conflict. I recall the joy I oocly had in a past character as we worked toward stabalzing the infrastructure, which was the basis for attaining a future goal.

It was icly rewarding as well, and I was not even in a position of authority, but was simply a peon that took the active plot those above me had to work with and presented to them functional ideas, they then took those ideas and road mapped them further sending them up the chain. Eventually those ideas became part of the newer frame work, which now has established a developing foundation for the growth of newer, larger plots to develop.


[edited to add] Sometimes you have to think small to achieve big.

[Dar]

My greatest, greatest compliments to Marko for this post.

[marko]

I agree with all the follow-up responses.

You do -not- have to love or bribe your superior NPCs.  In fact, if you treat them the way your character would treat them you will be far better off.  I once had a character who plotted to kill his superior and take their position.  Unfortunately, one of my character's minions betrayed my character for their own personal benefit....  Heck, sometimes you can conspire with one NPC against another one.

But, the biggest thing to keep in mind is to keep the communication channel open to the staff.  Let them know what is going on!

One of the very first major IC events I planned for Armageddon years ago (1999 I think) I made the terrible mistake of -not- submitting a full list of all the planned activities.  Turns out, the day of the event, I couldn't even log in.. whups!  I learned.

I didn't really want to address the current situation in the game world and just focused on one way I would go about starting a war.  There are literally millions of possible paths to get it done.  These are just examples for the sole purpose of trying to show off how our characters are minor characters when it comes to the big picture.  That is not to say that our characters are not hugely important when it comes to the player picture.  Within the player pond our characters can be huge sharks... just don't be upset if some sharks come out of the woodwork to deal with your's.  

In other words, always remember that there is a virtual world and that virtual world is tracked by the staff.  When you interact with it in a manner that is fitting to your character you will find the game amazingly rich and detailed.  If you try to overplay your hand (I have seen this a lot from sponsored blood roles of all Houses, noble, merchant, otherwise) then you will probably become frustrated by 'staff shutting me down.'  When in doubt, ask your staff what your character could accomplish at the moment.

To get stuff done keep working on the goal and keep everyone informed plus keep interacting with the -entire- world and not just the players.

[valeria]

I think the hardest thing for me with my first few leader-type characters was realizing how much blood sweat and tears actually needs to be poured into a big goal, realistically.

So here's Val's world-changing plot philosophy/mantra:

Be like a dwarf with a focus.  You've got your goal.  It's probably going to take your character's whole life and you might not accomplish it, but you've just got to accept that as the nature of things.  It's the striving for it that's where the action is at.  So you have to break it down into medium length goals (of realistically maybe an IC decade or three a piece), and then short term goals (to be accomplished within a couple of years), and then short-term subgoals (to be worked on presently).  You can't fold in the face of challenges, even if they look insurmountable.  You can't afford to let yourself get discouraged.  And maybe some day you'll change the world, but what you're doing right now is the most important thing.  Have fun doing it.

[musashi]

I got force stored for being too powerful >_>

> troll Nyr

You begin approaching your target ...

[Case]

I don't know if every character I play wants to change the world. Some are too busy trying to find their place within the here and now, or are content.

[catchall]

It does not happen.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40747.0.html

...unless it happened to you.

Then it did, or at least that's what you'll tell everyone else.  

That's why I posted the pic.

I'm a bit confused, because in the thread you posted, you offer this (presumably your purpose in posting the link to that thread):

There's a point of diminishing returns, when promoting someone past a certain point means an excessive amount of staff work that we will not engage in (instead of providing assistance or fleshing out the world around that PC, we'd end up having to have a countering force of equal rank attempting to thwart their PCs, so that the rest of the gameworld is represented) and an excessive amount of changes to playing style that most players wouldn't subject themselves to (GMH Heads aren't scary if they show up at the Retreat every day to drink with their buddies).  At that point, we usually will engage in dialogue with the player about storage and their PC turning NPC/vNPC as part of the clan.  This has been done several times.

This is an entirely reasonable policy, of course.  But even if the term "force"-stored is untrue in the most literal sense, and it should be more accurately described as "staff won't support your PC, and it probably won't be playable anyway, so you will be strongly encouraged to take 'early retirement'," I don't think it rises to level of suggesting that someone is a tinfoil-hatted nutter, when what they're describing seems to be the practical outcome of that policy.

[Dar]

My personal opinion. Perhaps I am wrong, but that's how I always viewed Arm personally.

I still do not know who is more powerful and influencial. A noble, or a noble's aide. You do not need to be a head honcho and wield massive authority (And risk storage) to achieve what you want. You wont get credit for everything you've done, but you can certainly "try" to do everything you want done.

[catchall]

Also, I'd like to add, I kind of love the idea of getting force-stored for being too powerful for the game world to handle you.  If that's not winning Armageddon, I don't know what is.

[Semper]

How I understand it, the staff does not "force"-store you without enough warning regarding the chosen progress of your character. They will most likely tell you that if you do this plot, and it succeeds, you will probably get a promotion. That promotion means "you will be less in the public, and things might be boring as a result" or "documentation of your clan will have your character become secluded in *secret* place". If you still decide to do the plot, I don't think it's really a "force" storage.

On the flip side, I can recall plenty of PCs who have made it to pretty powerful positions. A Red Robe Templar, High Faithful, a mid-tier noble (not a junior noble any more), leader of an alliance of clans... etc.

[Cind]

Good thread Marko. The macro world realization is something that may not happen for a while with some people, but once it does, you start to appreciate the staff positions on things.

I also agree with Cutthroat. The two citystates have little reason to go to war with each other. Allanak, however, may have a lot of reasons to mobilize against Red Storm. Tuluk may want to strongarm Kurac and the Gypsies into dealing with the kryl problem.

There are a lot of war possibilities that exclude a big one between the two city-states.

Allanak and Red Storm... my god, wouldn't that be fantastic! All that mul action! Both sides desperate in their own ways.

I could, conceivably, see Tuluk strongarming a few clans into fighting the kryl, but to be honest, that western gate seemed pretty strong in the past. Until, of course, the kryl figure out they can climb over the walls, or some burrow under the ground and come out in the sleeping basement of the Firestorm or something. Or, maybe, one kryl shows signs of magick---- depending on whether or not animals in this game's logic have the power to turn 'gicker--- or a 'gicker claims to lead them and shows proof that's at least half-believable--- and Tuluk just goes out of its damn mind and starts a real war against the kryl.

If a war really does begin, I'll definitely be part of that. I love soldier roles to death.

[Dresan]

Maybe I'm just a bit more practical:

I haven't really read what Marco wrote, I'm sure its really good though and true. However there is one fact that is probably the biggest obstacle of it all. The OOC fact that an large scale and meaningful change can takes months and even years to happens.  

WAR?Genocide?Some epic battle?

On the staff side its weeks and weeks of solid work, all while following along for the duration the players are running the plot. On the players side this is months and years of sloooow development which can end instantaneously at any point with the kill command. I'm sure at the bottom of the barrel there are storytellers that wake up one morning on their day off from work, log in, see a tavern full of players that look rather bored and say to themselves, "Hmmm, maybe i should load up some zombies and start the zombie apocalypse." but then they are face with the amount of work on their side, and collaboration with everyone on staff, permissions, schedules, etc, etc. This has been mentioned a couple times on the forums by them.

On the player's side, i got to ask myself: Do i really want to dedicate months and years of my RL to make a small amount of text happen? Umm, No. I don't even want to put the effort into making an application for extended sub-guilds actually.


I'm the McDonalds generation and waiting even a week is way too much boredom for me and not worth it. Unfortunately, games like world of warcraft and league of legends have spoiled me, sorry. For me this game is really slow paced, but its still fun for me to play once in a while and see if anything is going on, much like in the same way i like picking up a good book and reading is, now and then. One of the Arm 2 ideas was that the staff would get better tools to allow staff better tools to help them get stuff done (actually i think it was a brand new code base) might still be implemented some day, that might help or may not.

This is not saying that things don't happen, things can't happen, or that things won't happen, just that these things can take way too much work and time, both on the player and staff side. The end result being that it makes a lot of people not want to bother trying, or become easily discouraged, and thus interesting things don't happen as often as people would like them. Such is the nature of the game, its still often a good read though especially when things finally do end up happening.  

[Dar]

I dont really see the problem in that. All those year long plots is not the only thing that make Arm fun. A simple story, with simple characters, over simple goals, dreams, and aspirations, is just as entertaining. And it's totally independent of staff or anyone really, but your character and whomever really you wish to tap with whatever you're doing.

[Dresan]

Hmm, i should have probably phrased that as 'epic things' rather 'interesting things'. Since Dar is right, the little things in a PC's life can be considered interesting and entertaining at times.

Though i would argue that small stuff eventually gets old (at which point i personally take year long breaks), otherwise these threads would pop up at all. You can only spar, hunt, craft, mud sex and tavern sit for so long before it gets dull, at which point you need to sit back and consider how much time you really want to dedicate into making something happen for your PC. That length of RL time is the biggest obstacle IMO.

[Pale Horse]

Absolutely love the post and examples, Marko.

Real, Zalanthas shaping events are entirely within the realm of possibility for the players..if they are willing to put the blood, sweat, tears and time into making it an reality.   As has been pointed out, the time needed is usually quite a good number of RL months.  It's a fact that long-lived PCs do tend to have more clout than many of our flash-in-the-pan PCs that come and go within the span of three to four weeks.

[Nyr]

This is an entirely reasonable policy, of course.  But even if the term "force"-stored is untrue in the most literal sense, and it should be more accurately described as "staff won't support your PC, and it probably won't be playable anyway, so you will be strongly encouraged to take 'early retirement'," I don't think it rises to level of suggesting that someone is a tinfoil-hatted nutter, when what they're describing seems to be the practical outcome of that policy.

It's may not be a tinfoil-hatted nutter theory, but there's no validity to it.  Based on the actual evidence, it hasn't happened. 

I'll point out the exact thing I'm referring to...THIS THEORY.

characters powerful enough to actually enact world changes were force-stored ...  for being too powerful.

Kismetic brought this up because he likely thought it was true (otherwise, why ask?).  I suspect the reason that he brought it up was because the theory is brought up often enough.  It isn't true.  A couple of other places it has been seen:

i heard sorcerors get force-stored once they attain the ability to level allanak...

Maybe they DO force store PCs that can level cities? In that case, a lot of Krathis are getting mad right now...

We haven't ever done that.  We haven't ever force-stored a PC that was in a powerful position solely because they were in a powerful position.  This includes sorcerers.  This includes templars.  This includes nobles.  There were other reasons involved each time and in one case it was only partially related as far as I recall.  As for the rest, there was another post on that too:

As for limits on PC status, my response is, let the PCs accomplish what the PC accomplishes.  If the PC in game recruits a horde and has PC wielded power to accomplish goals and change the world, shouldn't the staff be excited to help them, rather then feel obligated to remove them for the sake of ease?

We let them accomplish what they accomplish.  We don't prevent PCs from recruiting a horde (in the case of sponsored roles, they do have a cap on direct hirelings, but that's for game balance).  We don't prevent PCs from accumulating social/political power and wielding it.  We don't prevent PCs from accomplishing goals and changing the world.  Experience has taught us that past a certain point, there are diminishing returns in rank.  Higher ranks shouldn't be seen often.  In many cases, they affect so much that they may as well be staff members.  Due to the constraints on the PC and notedly volunteer staff, we do what we can to facilitate the needs of people without having them at those higher ranks.  We're excited to help people accomplish goals, though--just not so excited to be obligated (not feel, be--it's a definite obligation) to do things and react to things at the whim of a PC rather than to assist them.

If someone does enough to threaten a city

This is unrelated.  We won't store someone for being a badass sorcerer/defiler/whatever, or a bender of unspeakable power, or for being a Thrain Ironsword.

rise to the top of their order/house/whatever, its "good on them" not, "better make you an NPC" if you want the game to be truly player driven.

That's a hypothetical you nor I could prove or disprove.  Experience has taught us that your scenario--tried several times--does not work, not for staff, nor for the representation of the gameworld.  We have more to think about than the pleasure of the players that get leadership roles--we have the gameworld and the experience in mind.  We've made the decision--and not lightly--to look at other alternatives so that PCs aren't pigeonholed into roles that limit and restrict their own RP (and so that staff aren't stuck following behind that person with a dustpan and broom, ready to pick up the pieces). 

Go.  Do.  Be.  Discussing the finer points of staff policy and how this prevents you from going, doing, and being...this is cathartic.  However, understand that you (the collective you, those of you that take issue with any staff policy in regards to this or related issues) are pointing out problems you have with the extreme cases that are usually never achieved.

[Kismetic]

I asked because I wasn't sure, but it did seem to me there was a cap on what rank you can achieve.  Maybe the word 'force-store' is abrasive, I don't know.  I would argue that a war isn't necessary or even good for the game.  Furthermore, it doesn't seem to me that artificial power granted to PCs is enough to spark a world war, but marko gives a decent example of how you might go about it.  To my own part, I think when those opportunities to roleplay the strife between the two dominant cultures of the game presented, I played it hard.  I know for sure that I'm not the only one.  These conflicts are in the scope of what we should really be doing, IMO.

I mean, why war, when you can gladiate?

Still, it was a nice read.

[musashi]

The trick to changing the world can be summed up as follows: strength in numbers.

Look you are never going to be powerful enough to beat up Tektolnes and tear down Allanak by yourself. It would mean you're a being of Demi-God like proportions. You can't play a Demi-God.

But if you manage to convince you know ... the entire player base and all of their characters are supporting yours in making the push ... who knows. Staff will have to at least take account of the plot and have the world react accordingly if a vast majority of the characters in game are pushing in that direction. They will more than likely be happy to. Granted ... this may well result in another visit by the Dragon ala the dwarven rebellion of yore but hey ... it will be a hell of a fireworks show. You WILL make it into the history docs, and you will have had a massive effect on the game world; win or lose.

[zanthalandreams]

Just wanted to add that changing the world can also come in more subtle ways of preventing something disastrous or game-changing from happening.    The change, then, is one that very few folks would realize.   Like keeping a tribe from going extinct or using your character's resources to remodel/build/renovate a gathering location from obscurity to popularity. 

I imagine stuff like this happens a lot.  Unlikely you'll get a street or a war named after your PC, but you'll know.  Can and does happen.

[Suhuy]

Brilliant ideas on how to make a game changing event by Marco! On that note, small scale changes can also leave their mark on the game world too.

Many many (many) years ago I played a 'Rinth elf from a virtual street tribe. I had him round up as many NPC rats as he could and toss them into a specific location, frequently RPing "farming" them, in a sense. He constantly had a rat or two on his person and I continued in this vein for some time. For the sheer purpose of being a nuisance to the southsiders, he would sneak (virtual) rats into the taverns and quietly leave them there. I didn't even send in e-mails with logs or wish up about it (though I did bravely make one in game board post about an influx in the rodent population). I just maintained the same RP and went with it, figuring that sooner or later someone would notice. The staff were cool enough to go along with my actions and lo and behold NPC rats started appearing in the Gaj and elsewhere. That really was the limit to the plot I had hoped to start, but it was nice having been the instigator of a rat infestation - and who knows what other plots it may have affected in game.

The same character successfully burnt down a piece of property in Allanak, which has since been rebuilt and turned into a shop of sorts. I doubt it will always happen this way, but I literally just walked into the place and RPed dropping lit torches everywhere. I had an idea the staff were watching me and was using several thinks to indicate why he was so angry, but I wasn't 100% certain. I figured what the hell, I'll RP this out and see what happens, leave the lit torches with appropriate ldescs and if someone later wants to RP with it, great. If not then I'll assume the fire died down on its own without having caused any real damage. To my surprise I received the echo: The room catches on fire! Followed shortly there after with: You are now wanted! I hightailed the hell outta there, only later to return and see that the staff had turned the room into ruins. I was so excited!

In another incarnation I planted a tree sapling in a specific location in the game (where there are no trees) and nurtured it to adulthood during my PC's lifetime. In this instance I did submit RP logs, to Sanvean who was kind enough to assist. To this day the tree still stands there and someone has even updated its desc since then! I'd love to have a hand in changing the game world overall, but even these little changes actually make me smile quite a bit.

Of course you can fail at smaller changes as well. I once had a different 'Rinth elf RP trying to smear yellow dye all over the Dragon Temple. Again, no wishing up or sending in logs. I just created the appropriate ldesc for my character and waited. It wasn't long before an NPC soldier subdued me and threw me into the arena, to die.

Anyway I'm definitely not discouraging players from trying their hands at world changing events, but let's face it - only a few will ever be successful. The game simply couldn't function if we all succeeded in changing the face of Zalanthas! I'm by no means discrediting Marco's post and I do hope that some players follow his example and put in the time and effort. But I would also like to encourage players to try and make smaller changes too. It's nice knowing that PCs have RPed around my tree and I'm fairly certain the store that replaced the ruins of my burnt down building was started up by a player as well. So go carve some graffiti in the walls of Luir's Outpost (and maybe be shot down by NPC archers in the process), or build a small monument in the sands that will serve as a marker for travelers for years to come It doesn't have to be part of some grandiose, long-term plan. Little plans can have visible changes as well.

[Sayyadina]

Were either of these cities to go to war with the other without correcting these problems, it is reasonable to assume they might set in motion their own destruction. Allanak would have to redirect its tiny food resources to armies far away from the city, causing citizens in the walls to starve and act like starving people (rioting, etc). Tuluk would have to worry about leaving forces behind to defend from a possible kryl attack, never truly able to send out a full attack force. In that sense, it is reasonable to assume that the high command of each city has a realistic desire to be non-confrontational. After all, their desire to stay alive trumps their hatred of the other side in a world where survival is everything. All that said, if my hypothetical templar were to start a conflict in the way you described, I would not be particularly surprised if he was executed by his superiors upon return to his city as a means of offering peace to the other side, whether I was successful in starting a war or not.

The two citystates have little reason to go to war with each other.

I whole heartedly agree that roleplaying smaller scale violent conflicts and the repair to the damage of the meteor swarm in Allanak and the Deluge in Tuluk from 22 IC years ago both offer infinite possibilities for conflict and fun.

However, I disagree with the sentiments in the quotes above, which suggest that it's just an accepted fact that war between the city-states would be Bad.  We each individually as players can assume whatever we want OOC'ly and IC'ly, but that doesn't make it fact.  Furthermore, just because a war might seem to be a Bad Idea doesn't mean they don't happen.  For evidence I give you a little thing called... All of human history.  Though, we don't need to look back to the Crusades for specific examples because it turns out that the US of A has provided a few in just the last decade.

The bottom line is, it's realistic that there are differences of opinion on whether war is a good thing (War, what's it good for?), both OOC'ly and IC'ly.  OOC'ly it's fine to question whether a major war would be fun for players or too much work for the staff and so on.  IC'ly, it's also fine to play a PC that opposes war against the opposite city-state for some of the reasons stated in this thread so far.  But whether or not a war happens IC'ly is dependent on the prevailing IC sentiment, and it's up to the leader PCs to sway sentiment one way or the other and to convince the aforementioned "high command" NPCs one way or another.  Maybe Allanak is concerned that Tuluk has WMD and they certainly don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud over Meleth's Circle, right?  The process by which a polity, say the people of Allanak, make a decision about war is called politics.

So, if Marko's templar were summarily executed for implementing his plan outlined above, then clearly his templar's politicking efforts failed and he obviously misjudged the sentiments of his "high command" NPCs, but his failure would not be because of immutable OOC or IC facts that prevent war.

[Kalai]

Hmm, we have some Mongol warrior guilds & subguilds in this game, perhaps Allanak could look into making armies with many of those in order to relieve the supply-line difficulties.  Regardless of which state is historically more similar to the Mongolian empire. I like small changes, myself, those stories are quite cool.

[Cutthroat]

I didn't mean to suggest that war would be bad for the game, or not make sense - and even suggested that some of the problems the city-states are facing might be resolved through war. What I mean to be is a devil's advocate by describing that is that the sort of resistance one will get along the way in the war effort, resistance you'll have to solve if you want to get through to your goal. Those are basic circumstances of the virtual world to take into account, and we have a responsibility to actually consider all of the steps - rather than follow marko's post which, while long, extremely-detailed and well-written, is still oversimplified for this very complicated situation. Bribing and politics probably aren't enough in a situation when you are trying to push up against hundreds of superiors pushing down, although it could be if the situation is right for it. There is probably no real way to tell someone how to take a PC and make him a successful warmonger, simply due to the fact that IC situations DO change as do the opinions of the superiors whose support you need to push such a thing though. And while Earth has had quite a lot of nonsensical wars, Zalanthas typically has wars for resources or territory over its history. It would be bucking a trend to start a war because those artsy-fartsy Tulukis or dirty savage Allanakis simply exist. A trend that, IMO, was set due to a prevailing desire for survival.

Ultimately, with the way things work in this game, you might have to put in months if not years of time just to light the spark needed to start the fire that is a war. And it is potentially possible to pull off, and potentially fun and rewarding. A war can't be bad for the game, just like any reasonable IC action can't be bad for it.

[Feco]

Brilliant ideas on how to make a game changing event by Marco! On that note, small scale changes can also leave their mark on the game world too.

Many many (many) years ago I played a 'Rinth elf from a virtual street tribe. I had him round up as many NPC rats as he could and toss them into a specific location, frequently RPing "farming" them, in a sense. He constantly had a rat or two on his person and I continued in this vein for some time. For the sheer purpose of being a nuisance to the southsiders, he would sneak (virtual) rats into the taverns and quietly leave them there. I didn't even send in e-mails with logs or wish up about it (though I did bravely make one in game board post about an influx in the rodent population). I just maintained the same RP and went with it, figuring that sooner or later someone would notice. The staff were cool enough to go along with my actions and lo and behold NPC rats started appearing in the Gaj and elsewhere. That really was the limit to the plot I had hoped to start, but it was nice having been the instigator of a rat infestation - and who knows what other plots it may have affected in game.

The same character successfully burnt down a piece of property in Allanak, which has since been rebuilt and turned into a shop of sorts. I doubt it will always happen this way, but I literally just walked into the place and RPed dropping lit torches everywhere. I had an idea the staff were watching me and was using several thinks to indicate why he was so angry, but I wasn't 100% certain. I figured what the hell, I'll RP this out and see what happens, leave the lit torches with appropriate ldescs and if someone later wants to RP with it, great. If not then I'll assume the fire died down on its own without having caused any real damage. To my surprise I received the echo: The room catches on fire! Followed shortly there after with: You are now wanted! I hightailed the hell outta there, only later to return and see that the staff had turned the room into ruins. I was so excited!

In another incarnation I planted a tree sapling in a specific location in the game (where there are no trees) and nurtured it to adulthood during my PC's lifetime. In this instance I did submit RP logs, to Sanvean who was kind enough to assist. To this day the tree still stands there and someone has even updated its desc since then! I'd love to have a hand in changing the game world overall, but even these little changes actually make me smile quite a bit.

Of course you can fail at smaller changes as well. I once had a different 'Rinth elf RP trying to smear yellow dye all over the Dragon Temple. Again, no wishing up or sending in logs. I just created the appropriate ldesc for my character and waited. It wasn't long before an NPC soldier subdued me and threw me into the arena, to die.

Anyway I'm definitely not discouraging players from trying their hands at world changing events, but let's face it - only a few will ever be successful. The game simply couldn't function if we all succeeded in changing the face of Zalanthas! I'm by no means discrediting Marco's post and I do hope that some players follow his example and put in the time and effort. But I would also like to encourage players to try and make smaller changes too. It's nice knowing that PCs have RPed around my tree and I'm fairly certain the store that replaced the ruins of my burnt down building was started up by a player as well. So go carve some graffiti in the walls of Luir's Outpost (and maybe be shot down by NPC archers in the process), or build a small monument in the sands that will serve as a marker for travelers for years to come It doesn't have to be part of some grandiose, long-term plan. Little plans can have visible changes as well.

That's pretty damn awesome.

But, reporting to staff and wishing up are always going to be better options!

[Twilight]

For me, long term change the world plots are more about all the activities they generate along the way, rather than accomplishing the actual change the world plot.  Which is why it is fantastic that it takes so long to accomplish them.

If your change the world plot isn't generating activities along the way, giving focus to what activities your character does along the way, it probably shouldn't succeed.

[FantasyWriter]

The trick to changing the world can be summed up as follows: strength in numbers.

Look you are never going to be powerful enough to beat up Tektolnes and tear down Allanak by yourself. It would mean you're a being of Demi-God like proportions. You can't play a Demi-God.

But if you manage to convince you know ... the entire player base and all of their characters are supporting yours in making the push ... who knows. Staff will have to at least take account of the plot and have the world react accordingly if a vast majority of the characters in game are pushing in that direction. They will more than likely be happy to. Granted ... this may well result in another visit by the Dragon ala the dwarven rebellion of yore but hey ... it will be a hell of a fireworks show. You WILL make it into the history docs, and you will have had a massive effect on the game world; win or lose.

While your statement is completely true, IMO. Staff is generally quick to say, "Hey, you're hogging the player base (and rightfully so in most ways). Stop hiring/recruiting/amassing.

It ends up being a catch 22:
The more people you have, the more power you have... you can't have too many PCs, because it offsets the balance of power... you can't use NPCs vNPCs, that's what PCs are for.

[Cutthroat]

The trick to changing the world can be summed up as follows: strength in numbers.

Look you are never going to be powerful enough to beat up Tektolnes and tear down Allanak by yourself. It would mean you're a being of Demi-God like proportions. You can't play a Demi-God.

But if you manage to convince you know ... the entire player base and all of their characters are supporting yours in making the push ... who knows. Staff will have to at least take account of the plot and have the world react accordingly if a vast majority of the characters in game are pushing in that direction. They will more than likely be happy to. Granted ... this may well result in another visit by the Dragon ala the dwarven rebellion of yore but hey ... it will be a hell of a fireworks show. You WILL make it into the history docs, and you will have had a massive effect on the game world; win or lose.

While your statement is completely true, IMO. Staff is generally quick to say, "Hey, you're hogging the player base (and rightfully so in most ways). Stop hiring/recruiting/amassing.

It ends up being a catch 22:
The more people you have, the more power you have... you can't have too many PCs, because it offsets the balance of power... you can't use NPCs vNPCs, that's what PCs are for.

That's a good point, but remedied by recruiting near or up to your maximum and involving other clans, tribes, and groups after that. Not remedied easily, mind you - that involves your leader PC convincing other PCs of what you want to do, and not everyone wants to do the same thing. But it can work. That also has the additional effect of involving other staff from those clans.

[palomar]

The trick to changing the world can be summed up as follows: strength in numbers.

Look you are never going to be powerful enough to beat up Tektolnes and tear down Allanak by yourself. It would mean you're a being of Demi-God like proportions. You can't play a Demi-God.

But if you manage to convince you know ... the entire player base and all of their characters are supporting yours in making the push ... who knows. Staff will have to at least take account of the plot and have the world react accordingly if a vast majority of the characters in game are pushing in that direction. They will more than likely be happy to. Granted ... this may well result in another visit by the Dragon ala the dwarven rebellion of yore but hey ... it will be a hell of a fireworks show. You WILL make it into the history docs, and you will have had a massive effect on the game world; win or lose.

While your statement is completely true, IMO. Staff is generally quick to say, "Hey, you're hogging the player base (and rightfully so in most ways). Stop hiring/recruiting/amassing.

It ends up being a catch 22:
The more people you have, the more power you have... you can't have too many PCs, because it offsets the balance of power... you can't use NPCs vNPCs, that's what PCs are for.

There is a limit to coded hirelings, but there's no limit to the amount of people you can have doing what you want to be done. Different groups and clans can (although rarely) work towards the same goal. The situation in the gameworld back in 2007/2008 would be a fairly accurate example of that, IMO. I know the main plotlines was orchestrated by staff but a lot of what actually happened was influenced by players and their PCs, and to be honest, some of the groups working together weren't forced to do so.

[FantasyWriter]

I was actually thinking outside hired minions in coded clans as well.  It can come in the form of too many 'gicks working together, a small indie merc company where suddenly everyone stops dying, a merchant, indie or clanned who has all the best hunters working for them (clanned or not) etc. Swaying more than 50% of the player base is one of the cities is quite doable, and can turn the table quite quickly, or make you think you have them turned, at least.

[solera]

And while Earth has had quite a lot of nonsensical wars, Zalanthas typically has wars for resources or territory over its history. It would be bucking a trend to start a war because those artsy-fartsy Tulukis or dirty savage Allanakis simply exist. A trend that, IMO, was set due to a prevailing desire for survival.

Ultimately, with the way things work in this game, you might have to put in months if not years of time just to light the spark needed to start the fire that is a war. And it is potentially possible to pull off, and potentially fun and rewarding. A war can't be bad for the game, just like any reasonable IC action can't be bad for it.

Nonsensical wars? For example?

[Is Friday]

Sounds like somebody is too far removed from the real world.

[solera]

Sounds like somebody is too far removed from the real world.

Me? I'm just foraging  for kindling.

[Is Friday]

No. I'm referring to Cutthroat's armchair general comment.

[Kismetic]

I think he's referencing wars fought over Gods, which you have to admit, that is something The Decider would do.

[Cutthroat]

Armchair general? I'm not trying to push expertise I don't have into this thread. I was responding to this:

Furthermore, just because a war might seem to be a Bad Idea doesn't mean they don't happen.  For evidence I give you a little thing called... All of human history.  Though, we don't need to look back to the Crusades for specific examples because it turns out that the US of A has provided a few in just the last decade.

Nonsensical was my way of summing up wars that might seem like they don't have enough of a premise to be a reasonable course of action, even if only in hindsight. I could personally list examples of RL wars that I think were bad for an aggressor to start, but it would defeat the purpose of this thread and derail it.

The take-away point I was trying to make is: while wars with weak reasoning do happen on Earth, they're probably a lot harder and riskier to push through than wars with some tangible gain (territory/resources/etc), in Zalanthas.

[Is Friday]

I dunno, I've been to Afghanistan. That seems like a pretty harsh location with limited resources. Motherfuckers have been fighting over them hills for centuries. I don't think your contrary "example" to Earth is warranted.

The "tangibility" or reasoning for wars/etc. seem more based on the fact that conflict should be interesting to us as players rather than whether or not people are smart enough to avoid extinction by fighting themselves into obscurity.

[Cutthroat]

I didn't say that resources are the only appropriate example of cause for war in Zalanthas. Just that it's probably easier to start a war if there's something, anything at all, to gain through winning, instead of making wars focused on the other side losing something. The only things I took into account in forming that opinion are Zalanthans' desire for survival and past history. I think that premise stands alone without comparisons to RL history, which another poster brought up and I tried my best to compare my premise to.

The "tangibility" or reasoning for wars/etc. seem more based on the fact that conflict should be interesting to us as players rather than whether or not people are smart enough to avoid extinction by fighting themselves into obscurity.

I agree, but again, even if PCs don't fulfill that latter condition, there are senior nobles, high ranked templars, and Sorcerer-Kings (NPCs and vNPCs) that seem to tend toward lasting as long as possible in a position of power. People that the PC has to push up against, and potentially upset their comfortable position, in order to do something.

[Is Friday]

IMO: With slavery as a viable resource, you can justify just about any conflict. Isn't most of Allanak's population slaves? Also: Aren't Borsail/Winrothol the more powerful/influential Houses in the two city-states?

[musashi]

The trick to changing the world can be summed up as follows: strength in numbers.

Look you are never going to be powerful enough to beat up Tektolnes and tear down Allanak by yourself. It would mean you're a being of Demi-God like proportions. You can't play a Demi-God.

But if you manage to convince you know ... the entire player base and all of their characters are supporting yours in making the push ... who knows. Staff will have to at least take account of the plot and have the world react accordingly if a vast majority of the characters in game are pushing in that direction. They will more than likely be happy to. Granted ... this may well result in another visit by the Dragon ala the dwarven rebellion of yore but hey ... it will be a hell of a fireworks show. You WILL make it into the history docs, and you will have had a massive effect on the game world; win or lose.

While your statement is completely true, IMO. Staff is generally quick to say, "Hey, you're hogging the player base (and rightfully so in most ways). Stop hiring/recruiting/amassing.

It ends up being a catch 22:
The more people you have, the more power you have... you can't have too many PCs, because it offsets the balance of power... you can't use NPCs vNPCs, that's what PCs are for.

I wasn't talking about minions here when I said get others to support you. I meant it in more of a political sense. No you can not skill train or hire your way to geopolitical change in Armageddon due to OOC restrictions on the game. But if you can draw enough people into your plot line you'll be able to get it up and off the ground. No promises it'll turn out the way you want it but hey, that's life!

And don't take bathroom breaks in the middle of critical moments 

[Kismetic]

Hey, never been to Afghanistan, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

http://news.yahoo.com/suicide-bomber-kills-23-afghan-wedding-183059960.html

Nothing like that happens in Armageddon, though.

[AdamBlue]

You wanna change the world? All you need is a pair of hands to work with and a brain to think with. Put it together with some old fashioned determination and and a little bit of luck, and you'll do what you wanna do. Just don't give up.

[Barsook]

You wanna change the world? All you need is a pair of hands to work with and a brain to think with. Put it together with some old fashioned determination and and a little bit of luck, and you'll do what you wanna do. Just don't give up.

+1 And a PC

[Karieith]

While changes have happened and are happening, they happen slowly. You will rarely, if ever, get the instant gratification of seeing your efforts unfold quickly. You should also get used to disappointment because things rarely work out how you hope.

That being said, while I've had a lot of positive experiences achieving one thing or another, I've begun to feel there's a certain animosity among staff towards working. To the point where they actively animate to punish and silence players who create work for them or promote activity. I suspect that's just a bias though, a bit of agitation on my end from all the barriers I've encountered in my year of play here coloring my perception. It's probably just a lack of time and the demands of so many upon so few.

[FantasyWriter]

Start small, and work your way up.
Wise man say, journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

Setting smaller goals, increasingly difficult as they progress along the way to your endgame helps you see some results of your labor and strife as well as show others you are willing to work for what you want rather than have it handed to you.

Staffs says, no, you can't have a wagon? So.... staff answer has nothing to do with whether or not your character works toward his goals.... make or have you made some wheeles, work for Kurac or get in REALLY good with them start doing mounted caravans and hire the guards and labourers you will need to get it done. After you have done all the work you can, either staff changes their mind on their previous answer based on seeing that you were willing to go the extra mile, or who cares? You're doing what you wanted to do in the first place, you just don't have a custom item to show for it, but you don't -need- it, you are already getting it done.

You know you aren't going to get a GDB clan board/IG real estate or anything else for your multi-tasking merc/grebber/hunting clan? So?
Hire, hire hire, until you get a good crew of four or five PCs that are going to stick around... do your work, do it well, put the byn to shame, pick out the smallest apartment building in your city and rent the whole damn thing out one room to a person if that is what it takes... beat the living shit out of anyone you ever see in there who is not one of your own, get in with a Templar good enough that you know s/he'll lean on the landlord if they try kicking you out, and hell, maybe even confiscate the building for you eventually.

Basically... do EVERYTHING you can toward a goal, letting staff know along the way, rather than asking for things form them up front. There is an IG and IC work around to nearly every OOC stumbling block you will face on your way to "winning" for your PC that is neither twinky or abusive. Good luck and full speed ahead, world shakers.

[Yam]

Awesome writeup, FW.

[FantasyWriter]

Thank you.

[Kieandatu]

There is a change, in game (so far as I know, I don't see it often) that I worked on across three characters. One came up with the idea, and on subsequent characters I was in a position to learn about and help along the project (I didn't actually seek out to get it done, it was just a long-term change).

I may not have a PC to say "Yeah. He did that cool thing you see." but OOCly I know I did it, even if it took a year to do.

[Maso]

Awesome writeup, FW.

+1

Great post. Thank you.

[Barsook]

Awesome writeup, FW.

[Delirium]

Basically, you have to make the game a full-time job to leave a (semi) permanent stamp on the world. But honestly... I learned a while ago that accomplishing major stuff is cool on an OOC level, but it's the stories we tell with other PCs that makes the game. Surround yourself with interesting stories, the rest is small potatoes.

Our characters all die in the end, and even the most intricately built plot can tumble like a house of cards... so tell the story, worry less about the outcome.

Frankly I don't know why so many feel the need to have their own brand new sandbox (clan) - there's so many to play in already.

[Karieith]

All the clans currently in existence could stand to have this kind of enthusiasm for changing the world within them.

[Bast]

Awesome writeup, FW.

+1

Great post. Thank you.

+1

[FantasyWriter]

Start small, and work your way up.
Wise man say, journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

Setting smaller goals, increasingly difficult as they progress along the way to your endgame helps you see some results of your labor and strife as well as show others you are willing to work for what you want rather than have it handed to you.

Staffs says, no, you can't have a wagon? So.... staff answer has nothing to do with whether or not your character works toward his goals.... make or have you made some wheels, work for Kurac or get in REALLY good with them start doing mounted caravans and hire the guards and labourers you will need to get it done. After you have done all the work you can, either staff changes their mind on their previous answer based on seeing that you were willing to go the extra mile, or who cares? You're doing what you wanted to do in the first place, you just don't have a custom item to show for it, but you don't -need- it, you are already getting it done.

You know you aren't going to get a GDB clan board/IG real estate or anything else for your multi-tasking merc/grebber/hunting clan? So?
Hire, hire hire, until you get a good crew of four or five PCs that are going to stick around... do your work, do it well, put the byn to shame, pick out the smallest apartment building in your city and rent the whole damn thing out one room to a person if that is what it takes... beat the living shit out of anyone you ever see in there who is not one of your own, get in with a Templar good enough that you know s/he'll lean on the landlord if they try kicking you out, and hell, maybe even confiscate the building for you eventually.

Basically... do EVERYTHING you can toward a goal, letting staff know along the way, rather than asking for things form them up front. There is an IG and IC work around to nearly every OOC stumbling block you will face on your way to "winning" for your PC that is neither twinky or abusive. Good luck and full speed ahead, world shakers.

To add some things to this after following along with the other thread:
As I  said, never take an OOC, "No, we are not going to support this through code changes" as a "No, you cannot do this."

I asked for a clear cut policy here, since the last relevant staff announcement posts were back in 2004 and 2008 and the later doesn't seem to have been carried through as far as I can tell, but my GDB search fu is not very strong.  I was told no, that they weren't going to post a new policy.  While I would really like to see a set policy, especially since staff has been "streamlining" things over the year in the direction of a more consistent responses from staff on specific subjects, I see why they don't want to do it in this case.

Since the Failure of the Armageddon Reborn deadline, they've not put any player-viewable timelines out there that might end up being disappointments to us.  This is probably, in my humble opinion, a good part of why they won't give us an updated building policy.  They are not going to say, "have your clan in game for twelve real life months and keep X number of players active in order for us to give you the keys to a house or workshop for your group" or "Keep this wilderness room build up with coded objects [for example, continuously building up a wall with blocky pieces of sandstone or a tent camp as were mentioned earlier in the thread] for twelve months without any other PCs or groups of PCs or NPCs coming in to destroy it for six months and we will give you a quit/save room and a room description change."

Why not? What if someone meets these listed requirements, but is for some other reason not ICly or OOCly capable of keeping it up? What if there is a current plot going on for people they are harassing on the other side of the Known to find out where they are hiding when they aren't raiding/magicking/cutting into trade? Should staff build it when a PC can stumble across it in a few days with the -intent- of wiping it out?
Simply put, too many variable. Does it still annoy me, yes.  Does it make me reluctant to try unless it is something I REALLY want as a concept, yes (which is probably a good thing).  If they did post a list of requirements, a good chunk of the player base would suddenly be avoiding current coded clans in favor of setting up something fresh and 'their's." Not nessessarily a bad thing, in my opinion, but I can certainly see why most staff may not like it.

Usually, when 'building' is brought up, we get, "there are changes going on in the game world that you just aren't seeing." From what I've seen over the last five years, 95% of this happens in the city states (With the exception of the world changing HRPT a couple/few years ago) with such things as monuments, rebuilding after destruction and.... pretty much it from what I have seen.  No doubt, this has been a HUGE amount of work from staff, but not everyone plays in the city states (probably less than 5% of my PCs ever go into either for more than a IG day at a time.

So why am I running off at the mouth (or fingertips rather)? To let you know, just because staff tells you, "No, you are not getting code support for this" Don't give up OOCly, and CERTAINLY don't give up ICly. Keep on trucking. Do what you can, keep staff up to date, and see what happens.  I bet with enough time and effort shown on your and your fellows parts that staff just might surprise you one day.  Be the change, Don't ask for the change.

[FantasyWriter]

On a more personal note, I wish it were possible for PC led groups to move against Coded clans with a hope of toppling or at least competing with them. But any time a group gets to be big enough to attempt such a thing, staff rightly lets you know you are getting too much PC power and out of balance with the virtual world (a group of ten PCs isn't that strong when you conciser merchant houses or tribes with thousands of heads, but when you conciser the playerbase only, they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it. So it's a catch 22. You can't compete unless you are large/powerful enough (even having a Blue robe and all the PC -junior- nobles behind you,  you don't have the clout to break into one of the merchant house monopolies, or take out the Guild, Jaxa Pah, or Byn in hopes of replacing them) without getting a Red, Black or virtual sorc/psion, or assassin of awesomeness after you for fecking with their pets.

Seemingly immortal god-kings aside, NOTHING last forever (in the real world or any good fiction), but the way the game works, there are things that are just never going to change under a player-led plot only policy.  Merchant houses aren't going to topple to competition or due to one or two bad PC agents.  Noble houses aren't going to do anything more than go up and down in prestige based on One PC noble's actions (which seems, IMO, kinda silly in light of this being a commentary on PC/virtual world balance). Every coded clan has too much power behind them to be toppled by PCs plots. There isn't enough room in the player base or the current policies for new clans to pop up that mirror existing clans.  You are welcome to start your own clan. Many of the existing clans in the game, in fact, were originally created by players is an awesome and powerful statement reflecting how things were in the "glory days," but now it just seems like a tease.

PS- I mentioned city clans.  Here's one on the barrier in trying to do the same thing in the desert: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39991.0.html

[Kieandatu]

You are welcome to start your own clan. Many of the existing clans in the game, in fact, were originally created by players is an awesome and powerful statement reflecting how things were in the "glory days," but now it just seems like a tease.

[musashi]

I dunno I mean, has anyone tried working with the staff to recruit vNPC's and NPC's along with the PC's they recruit for their budding group? Maybe that's the missing puzzle piece. I haz no idea, never tried to start a group like that before myself I'm just thinking ... if the reason the bigger clans can't be competed with is that they have all this virtual power ... players should try to acquire some of that virtual power in time with their PC recruiting.

[Dar]

The problem with this is that it's much harder to recruit NPCs then PCs. There are plenty of PCs out there who are willing to work together, for something that is basically ... a non-profit. The idea is that it becomes profitable in the future, yada, yada. Its much harder to sweet talk virtual population, them's a hungry, greedy lot.

[BleakOne]

I think a lot of people are mistaking 'very difficult' for 'impossible'. I've had some attempts to make lasting change to the gameworld, and never been met with a flat 'no'. Maybe I'm just lucky, I don't know.

I've never -succeeded-, but that's never been because of staff. I just tend to... y'know... die.

[HavokBlue]

It's unfortunate that a lot of the cool things people seem to have done in the past with staff support now require you to play Arm like a part-time job to accomplish an approximation of the same thing.

[John]

The staff were cool enough to go along with my actions and lo and behold NPC rats started appearing in the Gaj and elsewhere. That really was the limit to the plot I had hoped to start, but it was nice having been the instigator of a rat infestation - and who knows what other plots it may have affected in game.

Was this around 2002-2004? (I'm a bit hazy on when exactly). You were responsible for the Great Allanaki Rat Plague?

I remember that. My character got quite unnerved by the fact rats were appearing in the Borsail Estate. He saw it as evidence that the Templarate were losing control of the city and so he sent a PC down there to investigate what the heck was going on. What that PC reported back drove my character insane. He shared his knowledge before just going batshit insane and doing some very naughty things before I stored him (he was just too insane to play longterm).

That plot was awesome. Made much more so by the fact it had such a simple and in character beginning.

But, reporting to staff and wishing up are always going to be better options!

Before the "Character reporting tool" it was never clear how many e-mails were too many e-mails. Also unclanned characters didn't have staff to report to. IMO things are much clearer and easier now.

[Nyr]

It's unfortunate that a lot of the cool things people seem to have done in the past with staff support now require you to play Arm like a part-time job to accomplish an approximation of the same thing.

citation needed

[Schrodingers Cat]

It's unfortunate that a lot of the cool things people seem to have done in the past with staff support now require you to play Arm like a part-time job to accomplish an approximation of the same thing.

When staff say you need to really work for something, they aren't joking.

[edited to add]
But to be fair many of those cool things in the past probably required a lot of work too.

[Kieandatu]

It's unfortunate that a lot of the cool things people seem to have done in the past with staff support now require you to play Arm like a part-time job to accomplish an approximation of the same thing.

citation needed

Thats just unfair, Nyr, because you know damn well if anyone had any -real- citation, it would be likely breaking the rules of OOC communication. I believe this is what Sean Connery calls ENTRAPMENT.

Though Havok is right. Its very rare that your commoner PC, who has been around for a RL year but is only 5days played, is going to get -anything- done because they simply "Don't have the backing for it."

[HavokBlue]

It's unfortunate that a lot of the cool things people seem to have done in the past with staff support now require you to play Arm like a part-time job to accomplish an approximation of the same thing.

citation needed

I don't know if anyone has had an in-game experience similar to FW's post but it seems pretty obvious it would require some massive playtimes.

Start small, and work your way up.
Wise man say, journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

Setting smaller goals, increasingly difficult as they progress along the way to your endgame helps you see some results of your labor and strife as well as show others you are willing to work for what you want rather than have it handed to you.

Staffs says, no, you can't have a wagon? So.... staff answer has nothing to do with whether or not your character works toward his goals.... make or have you made some wheeles, work for Kurac or get in REALLY good with them start doing mounted caravans and hire the guards and labourers you will need to get it done. After you have done all the work you can, either staff changes their mind on their previous answer based on seeing that you were willing to go the extra mile, or who cares? You're doing what you wanted to do in the first place, you just don't have a custom item to show for it, but you don't -need- it, you are already getting it done.

You know you aren't going to get a GDB clan board/IG real estate or anything else for your multi-tasking merc/grebber/hunting clan? So?
Hire, hire hire, until you get a good crew of four or five PCs that are going to stick around... do your work, do it well, put the byn to shame, pick out the smallest apartment building in your city and rent the whole damn thing out one room to a person if that is what it takes... beat the living shit out of anyone you ever see in there who is not one of your own, get in with a Templar good enough that you know s/he'll lean on the landlord if they try kicking you out, and hell, maybe even confiscate the building for you eventually.

Basically... do EVERYTHING you can toward a goal, letting staff know along the way, rather than asking for things form them up front. There is an IG and IC work around to nearly every OOC stumbling block you will face on your way to "winning" for your PC that is neither twinky or abusive. Good luck and full speed ahead, world shakers.

[FantasyWriter]

An active leader doesn't have a massive weekly play time.  I would say... ten to fifteen hours a week is doable.
The most important think is to use your online time wisely. Be sure to try and hit up all your contacts at least once a week, minions two or three.
If you can't find them all during your lump play times, log in a few more times a week, just to go through your contact list, concentrating on the ones you don't speak to regularly.

Being a good leader/plotmover is more about staying active long term, keeping everyone busy/interested in your project, and showing passion (positive or negative) about your goals than devoting huge chunks of idle time waiting on things to happen. When the people you depend on and depend on you see you IG they need to see you working and pushing for your dreams, overtly or subtly.  They don't need to see you sitting around on your bum complaining about things not happening fast enough.  They need to see you MAKING them happen, or at least putting on a good show of it.

[Delirium]

10-15 hours a week is a part time job, buddy.

Anyway, I don't understand this fixation on CHANGING ZE WORLD. I've had plenty of fun and I've never made it anywhere near the history docs.

We could use a paradigm shift toward less focus on winning, and more focus on storytelling, in my opinion.

[Kieandatu]

We could use a paradigm shift toward less focus on winning, and more focus on storytelling, in my opinion

I would submit that, in recent years, we actually HAVE done this. With alterations to the combat code, and more focus on PC plots and mastercrafted creations, there is less a focus on "I will rival Tektolnes" and more of a "I just want to survive, while grinding my skills, so when I die it can be epic."

But there needs to be a focus on "winning" at some point, because if we all just get in to tell a story, this may as well be a MUSH, with no coded ability to do anything. Some people play Arm because we are writers. Others of us are Storytellers, and Dungeon Masters. Some of us just want to escape into a life that isn't our regular, shitty one. Some of us revel in being a great RPer and giving other people a great story to tell others.

I love your entire face, Delerium, but "focus less on winning, and more on storytelling" is here.

[Barsook]

We could use a paradigm shift toward less focus on winning, and more focus on storytelling, in my opinion

Can I siggy this?

[Ktavialt]

I play Arm to accomplish something.  Usually I'm a magicker-nerd that wants to be a kick ass Whiran/Sorc/what have you, but I think I've had mundane wants before too.  I think the flipside is that the staff needs to have some consistency and not be the bitch of any random number of players that think they should be able to do something like kill 100 gortok and exterminate the species, then wonder why it isn't happening.

I'm having trouble getting back into the game because I had a great degree of awesomeness before, and now I'm not sure I wanna try again because I don't think I'll be able to match it

I'm probably not the most liked type of player from the staff perspective, though certainly not hated by any means, but oh well, the "in it to win it mentality" is what it is, and at least I emote well.

That's pretty random but I wanted to do a little support on Kieandatu's post because heck some of us don't wanna play a MUSH.

[Delirium]

Good points, and part of the strength of ArmageddonMUD is that it does cater to all types of players.

I don't have a solution to offer that strikes a better balance than currently exists between the needs of gameworld stability, staff time, and player input, though.

[Kismetic]

I was part of a long running plot about exterminating a species, and I think the only thing I ever told staff was "Hey, we've codedly killed around two thousand of these as a group, just letting you know."  I don't think I ever once demanded that shit happen for me, but I did notice some changes.  I can't say I'm really bummed that it was never completed, but it would've been cool.  I just played my PC, though, as realistically as possible.  I've been historically terrible at communicating with staff, and I'm trying to amend that, but I have to wonder if it would've helped.

[Nyr]

It's unfortunate that a lot of the cool things people seem to have done in the past with staff support now require you to play Arm like a part-time job to accomplish an approximation of the same thing.

citation needed

I don't know if anyone has had an in-game experience similar to FW's post but it seems pretty obvious it would require some massive playtimes.

I should've been more specific.  Yes, FW's post indicates that it would take some time and effort to do things, and yeah, I agree with folks saying it's probably about as much as a part-time job if you look at it that way.  However,  your post implies that you think that the stuff people did before with staff support somehow requires more out of you now than it ever did then.  That's what I'm calling attention to, and my response?

No.

It was a part-time job then, too!

You do have to put in a certain amount of regular playtime in many cases to do many things (mostly because many things require other PCs, and you can't really involve other PCs if you aren't around in a minimum capacity to move things along).  You also do have to expect certain things to take a bare minimum of time to evolve.  I can't really be more specific than that because many situations are different, but there it is.

[FantasyWriter]

Anyway, I don't understand this fixation on CHANGING ZE WORLD. I've had plenty of fun and I've never made it anywhere near the history docs.

One major reason many players were exiting about Armageddon Reborn was that the world was going to be much less static. The powers that be were not going to be omnipotent God Kings that could level a whole tribe in one overhead pass or make a whole region's varied peoples give up their former lives to join him happily in a big hippy commune. There would not be as many established clans, village were going to be 'conquerable' and 'destroyable' (which would imply re/ buildable over time), there were going to be news areas to explore (i seem to remember hearing a teaser somewhere about one there might be ruins present of one of the two current City States).  We were going to be able to build farms, herd and raise livestock, plant plants, weep as our crops withered. Such a fluid world was, in my opinion going to seem much more alive.

Not having that to look forward to now, many of us were hoping that things would partly go back to the way they were before building was stopped on the old game (the Sanvean Staff announcement that seems to have disappeared). Building is back yes, but on a (from what I gather since the announcement was either before my time or before I ever got on the GDB)  much more limited scale. Many of the desert tribes that we have and have had in the past were player created, but that isn't something that can happen anymore.  You can't build up a merchant house because the big four would squash your heads before you even got close.  Both of the city states have a "crime-lord" clan or two that do the same in that area.  The establishments are all to powerful to change things inside the cities, the same with outside the cities having to deal with the cities and tribes, though as recent history shows, the tribes are certainly... disposable with enough work, but would they be replaced with something fresh, or simply be struck up as a 'yippee' for player consolidation?

Am I saying this is a bad thing? No, I love Armageddon, there is very little that I would change about it if I could, but sometimes it just feel's stagnant.  Not all of us are happy playing one clanny/social/indie merchant/gemmer PC after another in one of the city states (though my favorite three PCs that I've played fit into one or more of those categories), or limited to the flavor of two elven and two and a half human tribes outside the walls.

[FantasyWriter]

10-15 hours a week is a part time job, buddy.

True. I was thinking more along the lines of if you don't have 1.4 hours a day average to devote to something (no offense meant WHATSOEVER to anyone who doesn't/can't play that much) should you expect to make a great impact within it? I for one would not apply for a leader role if I didn't think I had ten hours a week to spend on it.  I would be more frustrated with not having enough time to socialize, plot, and scheme than I would enjoy the role, I think.  That's just me, though. We all play differently.

[Nyr]

Not having that to look forward to now, many of us were hoping that things would partly go back to the way they were before building was stopped on the old game (the Sanvean Staff announcement that seems to have disappeared).

There was (at best) a 2 year moratorium on new building for the old game shortly after the announcement of Arm 2.  As evidenced by the myriad of plots going on, this didn't extend to the myriad of plots going on, which had things built for them.  2 years later, the moratorium was lifted.  Stuff has been built quite regularly.

Building is back yes, but on a (from what I gather since the announcement was either before my time or before I ever got on the GDB)  much more limited scale.

You probably mean this post.  And that doesn't even apply now, so no idea where you're going with this or why you think this.

Many of the desert tribes that we have and have had in the past were player created, but that isn't something that can happen anymore.

Not allowing desert tribes to be player-created was something that changed before Arm 2.  Not sure where you're going with this one, either.  Players made some tribes and we decided at some point to not let them do that with desert elves anymore. 

You can't build up a merchant house because the big four would squash your heads before you even got close.

A previous post in this thread have some advice towards that end, actually.  The whole post is good, but this part is the best I think.  You do have to start somewhere!

Start small, and work your way up.
Wise man say, journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

The next section is really important if this is your goal, too.  You have the end goal of making your own merchant house, so:

Setting smaller goals, increasingly difficult as they progress along the way to your endgame helps you see some results of your labor and strife as well as show others you are willing to work for what you want rather than have it handed to you.

Now, how do you go about that?  Well, here's an example as well--I'll edit it a little to be specific to the situation.

You know you aren't going to get a GDB clan board/IG real estate or anything else for your burgeoning, small-time merchant house start-up? So?
Hire, hire hire, until you get a good crew of four or five PCs that are going to stick around... do your work, do it well, put the GMH PCs to shame, pick out the smallest apartment building in your city and rent the whole damn thing out one room to a person if that is what it takes... beat the living shit out of anyone you ever see in there who is not one of your own, get in with a Templar good enough that you know s/he'll lean on the landlord if they try kicking you out, and hell, maybe even confiscate the building for you eventually.

Now, note that the landlord is Nenyuki and that just because you've rented all available apartments in an apartment building, it doesn't mean you've rented all virtual apartments in it...that's how that works.  But overall it's not bad advice, right?

Both of the city states have a "crime-lord" clan or two that do the same in that area.

Yes, perhaps so.

The establishments are all to powerful to change things inside the cities, the same with outside the cities having to deal with the cities and tribes, though as recent history shows, the tribes are certainly... disposable with enough work, but would they be replaced with something fresh, or simply be struck up as a 'yippee' for player consolidation?

Some goals might be difficult to the point of being nigh-impossible, so why try?  Sheesh, you should talk to the poster I was referring to above.  That guy can get you out of this slump! 

As for the last bit, I suppose you'll find out over time.

[FantasyWriter]

Hahaha, touche.
I should have stuck with the first paragraph as the answer to Delerium's question.
The rest was more me running off at the mouth at 5:AM after a twelve hour shift on things that have been beat to death  in this thread.

One major reason many players were exiting about Armageddon Reborn was that the world was going to be much less static. The powers that be were not going to be omnipotent God Kings that could level a whole tribe in one overhead pass or make a whole region's varied peoples give up their former lives to join him happily in a big hippy commune. There would not be as many established clans, village were going to be 'conquerable' and 'destroyable' (which would imply re/ buildable over time), there were going to be news areas to explore (i seem to remember hearing a teaser somewhere about one there might be ruins present of one of the two current City States).  We were going to be able to build farms, herd and raise livestock, plant plants, weep as our crops withered. Such a fluid world was, in my opinion going to seem much more alive.

[Kebron]

This is a great thread, lots of great advice I mean really great advice. Gives me some ideas.