How do city elves travel?

[Potaje]

As an aside, I think a city-elf hiring the Byn to escort them is a pretty dumb idea, unless you have a rock solid plan B covering the scenario where they try to screw you over.

Yea, well, anyone can label most any situation that has some risk as dumb.

But hiring out the Byn is one way to include and generate a group of other pc's into a plot, and utilize a coded clan for what its purpose is in game.

[Synthesis]

As an aside, I think a city-elf hiring the Byn to escort them is a pretty dumb idea, unless you have a rock solid plan B covering the scenario where they try to screw you over.

Yea, well, anyone can label most any situation that has some risk as dumb.

But hiring out the Byn is one way to include and generate a group of other pc's into a plot, and utilize a coded clan for what its purpose is in game.

"Gettin' folks involved" isn't a sufficient criterion for violating city-elf racial roleplay guidelines.  Now, if you've put Sarge Amos and Trooper Malik through your elven loyalty tests, and you know that Runner's deep, dark secret, it might make sense.  Otherwise, there's no way in hell an elf would go out on a limb like that with people he's got no reason to trust.

[Delusion]

As an aside, I think a city-elf hiring the Byn to escort them is a pretty dumb idea, unless you have a rock solid plan B covering the scenario where they try to screw you over.

Yea, well, anyone can label most any situation that has some risk as dumb.

But hiring out the Byn is one way to include and generate a group of other pc's into a plot, and utilize a coded clan for what its purpose is in game.

"Gettin' folks involved" isn't a sufficient criterion for violating city-elf racial roleplay guidelines.  Now, if you've put Sarge Amos and Trooper Malik through your elven loyalty tests, and you know that Runner's deep, dark secret, it might make sense.  Otherwise, there's no way in hell an elf would go out on a limb like that with people he's got no reason to trust.

Never played an elf, doubt I ever will, but from my reading of the docs, don't elves go to the point of putting their own lives at risk to discern the trustworthiness of others?

edit: yeah, it sounds absurd, and it's part of why I've no intention to go for an elf - that's too alien to me. That's what's written, however.

[Synthesis]

As an aside, I think a half-giant hiring the Byn to escort them is a pretty dumb idea, unless you have a rock solid plan B covering the scenario where they try to screw you over.

That.

It's always a trust issue.

Yeah, but the half-giant racial docs specifically say they're prone to trusting people when they shouldn't.  City-elves are exactly the opposite--they won't trust you until you've gone through hell and high water to prove it.

[Synthesis]

As an aside, I think a city-elf hiring the Byn to escort them is a pretty dumb idea, unless you have a rock solid plan B covering the scenario where they try to screw you over.

Yea, well, anyone can label most any situation that has some risk as dumb.

But hiring out the Byn is one way to include and generate a group of other pc's into a plot, and utilize a coded clan for what its purpose is in game.

"Gettin' folks involved" isn't a sufficient criterion for violating city-elf racial roleplay guidelines.  Now, if you've put Sarge Amos and Trooper Malik through your elven loyalty tests, and you know that Runner's deep, dark secret, it might make sense.  Otherwise, there's no way in hell an elf would go out on a limb like that with people he's got no reason to trust.

Never played an elf, doubt I ever will, but from my reading of the docs, don't elves go to the point of putting their own lives at risk to discern the trustworthiness of others?

That would be the absolute final step in an elven trial of trust.  Even then, it is often only the illusion of being in danger.  The point is to make the person being tested put himself into danger, not to put yourself into danger.  That's just smart.

[Potaje]

As an aside, I think a city-elf hiring the Byn to escort them is a pretty dumb idea, unless you have a rock solid plan B covering the scenario where they try to screw you over.

Yea, well, anyone can label most any situation that has some risk as dumb.

But hiring out the Byn is one way to include and generate a group of other pc's into a plot, and utilize a coded clan for what its purpose is in game.

"Gettin' folks involved" isn't a sufficient criterion for violating city-elf racial roleplay guidelines.  Now, if you've put Sarge Amos and Trooper Malik through your elven loyalty tests, and you know that Runner's deep, dark secret, it might make sense.  Otherwise, there's no way in hell an elf would go out on a limb like that with people he's got no reason to trust.

Your stance begins with the assumption that other aspects of preparation for travel would not have been arranged. You simply label another's idea as dumb because they didn't feel the need to go into a step by step - How to Hire the Byn if your an Elf- senerio. It is no less a valid (an by no means does it say or suggest anywhere that an elf would not Hire the Byn to secure travel in the docs) as a suggestion.  

Not that I don't agree with having a plan B, or making sure to secure some sort of trust (lets face it as the Byn works on reputation and coins, coins can at least buy some trust if one known's how to deal.), I do disagree with it being called dumb, or wrongly being stated as some part of the elven docs.

[Synthesis]

If you're an elf that would travel out into the wastes with a bunch of armed fellows who aren't 100% certain not to kill you, you're playing a dumb elf.  This paranoia about loyalty isn't some kind of thing that can generally be overcome by rational capacity.  The fear of betrayal and being screwed over is something that dominates the elven psyche so fully that it becomes a reason in itself.

Not only that, if you die...what happens to the tribemates who depend on you? What happens to your mate, your children?  Will they go hungry?  Will they die on an impossible quest to avenge your death?  How can you know? How can you risk it, when so many things can go wrong, and the only reward is some bit of coin or something equally worthless?

I suppose I could make an exception for a tribeless elf who is so tortured by solitude that he's essentially broken and half-mad, but again...that's going to be a huge exception.

[Spider]

I doubt they would even get out of the gates. The bynners would likely require something up front as all elves are thieving sneaky badasses, and the elf would never pay anything up front out of risk of getting the front money stolen.

[Potaje]

If you're an elf that would travel out into the wastes with a bunch of armed fellows who aren't 100% certain not to kill you, you're playing a dumb elf.  This paranoia about loyalty isn't some kind of thing that can generally be overcome by rational capacity.  The fear of betrayal and being screwed over is something that dominates the elven psyche so fully that it becomes a reason in itself.

Not only that, if you die...what happens to the tribemates who depend on you? What happens to your mate, your children?  Will they go hungry?  Will they die on an impossible quest to avenge your death?  How can you know? How can you risk it, when so many things can go wrong, and the only reward is some bit of coin or something equally worthless?

I suppose I could make an exception for a tribeless elf who is so tortured by solitude that he's essentially broken and half-mad, but again...that's going to be a huge exception.

I took  the OP's question as a general one, not that specific to the coded tribes. And taking what you had to say above. There is no difference in the lose,  just as great a chance of danger and death when heading out on ones own.

I sense you are trying to be -what you think is- helpful, perhaps you even feel you have the quintessential knowledge to the play of a c-elf. I can appreciate many aspects of your suggestions through the post, though we will not see eye to eye on all of them.

I for one have successfully played elves. I have seen elves both of tribes and tribeless hire out the Byn. I have seen it succed and not succeed. You will not find me giving to your stance on it being Dumb, as a blanket statement. I will say there are risks, as you point out, all risks must be weighed carefully.

If an elf is to hire the Byn, go out on their own, or hire any sort of escort to travel (even with their own blood) they should seek to limit the amount of risk by considering as many angles as possible. Here I would agree with Synthesis.

[Synthesis]

My "quintessential knowledge" is the docs:

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/thanas_elf.html

"Probably the key thing to focus on when playing an elf, is that the elven mind is always looking for a scam, either directed at him or one he can direct at someone else. Elves will be suspicious of anyone that they do not know well enough to trust their lives to. The reasoning is simple. When you spend your entire life looking for ways to screw everyone else over, you expect everyone else to be doing the same to you.

The only people that an elf should trust are those of his tribe, or otherwise childhood friends that he has tested, and those who you have ICly tested their trust."

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elf.html

"Elves highly distrust anyone who is not part of their immediate family, or of their tribe, who has not been tested severely to earn their trust. Elves will go to great lengths to contrive and execute these tests, even to the point of putting their own lives at risk."

http://www.armageddon.org/help/show.php/race%20city%20elf

"Highly distrustful of all persons outside their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to test the trustworthiness of any companion."

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elven.html

"All elves have an inborn distrust of anyone and everyone outside of their tribe or social circle. An elf gifted with the presence of a tribe would have an "us" versus "them" mentality. An elf who is born without a tribe would, because they has no-one else to identify with, have an overwhelming "me" versus "them" mentality. The "them" to elves is outsiders, everyone who is not part of the tribe, the individual, or the trusted social circle. As much as elves have an enhanced sense of cohesion for their own tribe, they have a decreased sense of it for outsiders! The word paranoia is perhaps not too strong to define how elves see outsiders."

I'm not saying it is inconceivable for an elf to hire the Byn as an escort.  I'm saying it would be highly unusual and probably require years of IC grooming and preparation.  The fact that people have done it before is irrelevant to the question of whether it's appropriate or inappropriate, unless you know all the circumstances surrounding the case and you know whether it was approved of (or not) by the Staff.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Elves NEVER make any mistakes.

[Synthesis]

Elves NEVER make any mistakes.

If you're an elf that would travel out into the wastes with a bunch of armed fellows who aren't 100% certain not to kill you, you're playing a dumb elf.

Gee, if only someone had thought of that earlier.

[Suhuy]

Your stance begins with the assumption that other aspects of preparation for travel would not have been arranged. You simply label another's idea as dumb because they didn't feel the need to go into a step by step - How to Hire the Byn if your an Elf- senerio. It is no less a valid (an by no means does it say or suggest anywhere that an elf would not Hire the Byn to secure travel in the docs) as a suggestion.

I have to side with Synthesis on this. I do not believe there is such a thing as How to Hire the Byn if You're an Elf Scenario. Sure, it's been done. It's not so heinous a breach of racial RP that the imms will strike you down with lightning from on high. And yes, it's always good to encourage interaction and involvement. The trouble is that elves are a tricky group to play. I don't think Synthesis is calling you or anyone else dumb for doing it. He's saying the reality is that an elf is ICly dumb if they do it. (Or so that's how I'm interpreting this dialog). If we really read the documentation with an open mind, we can see just how unlikely it is that an elf would hire and entrust a group of strangers with his life.

But the bottom line, I believe, in this entire discussion is if you're a city elf: just don't leave the city. There are a scarce few reasons you ever would. You're wanted for a crime? Many city elves, by their very nature, are already criminals. Laying low and hiding out in the poorer part of your city would be far more natural for an elf "on the run" than to head into a desert you know nothing about. It has to be understood that the desert wastes by most of the civilized populous of the world is viewed as instant death. So certain are they that they'll die horribly out in the sands they willingly tolerate the cruel and tortuous whim of templars, the corruption of militia and endure a life in abject poverty. The same large majority of Zalanthas' city population has never stepped foot outside the city walls in their entire life! With that in mind what possible reason could a city elf have for traipsing into the desert?

The trouble is, many players WANT to go exploring, they WANT to visit other places such as Luir's Outpost or Red Storm Village. And that's fair enough. I like to do those things too. But if you can't handle playing a completely indoors character, my recommendation is don't play a city elf! It's simply a role that's not for you. As others have said, there are exceptions as to why a city elf might leave his home, but they are such rare occurrences that I really am going to raise my eyebrows in question when I see one do it. Not in an "Oh my God this elf is riding a kank!" or "look at those Tulukis hugging a sorcerer!" kind of response, surely, but definitely a look of "something's not right here. I wonder what this is all about." The only reasonable exceptions that come to mind are: a templar has booted you out of the city as punishment for your crime, or strange magicks have brought you far into the wilderness and you have no choice but to find your way back (or to the nearest point of civilization).

[Voular]

There are certain ways for elves to travel between the city states. It's a find out in the game sort of thing though, and possibly the easier ways are not available anymore because of certain happenings in the game as well. What we all can agree upon is that walking between the city states is not optimal for a city elf. And the answer to how one would transport themselves from point A to point B would be best found out playing the damn game.. All our tricky problems, that foster fun scenarios IG, will never be solved or spelled out on the forums for the obvious reasons!

[X-D]

I've never had a problem with my celves traveling outside the city. Some of which went just about everywhere.

On average, you can travel around 20 rooms using half your stam...some areas less, some areas more, but on average, 20...this gives you plenty of stam to run if you need to.

[HavokBlue]

I wish I'd noticed this thread when everyone was talking about how silly the in-game process for membership in c-elf clans is.

[Nyr]

I wish I'd noticed this thread when everyone was talking about how silly the in-game process for membership in c-elf clans is.

to complain...

or to offer a rebuttal? 

Inquiring minds wish to know!

[Dakota]

Race Elf                                                        (Character)

   Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas,
closely following humans. They are taller than humans--mostly standing
between around 74 and 90 inches in height--and tend to have slim, light
frames. Skin color ranges from nearly black to pale cream colors; hair is
typically dark but shares a similar range of hues. Eye color among elves
is a matter of extraordinary variability. Elven ears are always pointed,
and their eyes always almond-shaped. There are two varieties of elves: city
elves and desert elves.  One of these varieties sucks.
   City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and
have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also
live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens
of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run-
down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of
loyalty at all.  There is no space for roleplay between the two previous
positions.
   Desert elves are nearly always members of desert tribes, and wander
freely about the wastes hunting for what they need. (unless they're Red Fangs,
then they're dead--amirite?  lol) They tend to be darker
in skin color than city elves, as well as leaner and more muscular, but
not necessarily stronger. Elves are very long-limbed, and desert elves are
runners by nature, capable of a prolonged run across most types of terrain.
   The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result
of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.  All elves suck, though.

Roleplaying:
   Descended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert
tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery.
Among elves, theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers is not a crime,
per se, but more of a test of courage. Highly distrustful of all persons
outside their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to
test the trustworthiness of any companion. However, they will not go
to great lengths to test the trustworthiness of elves that seek to join
their tribe.  That'd be silly and not in-character at all.  They also wouldn't
actually trust anyone that was tested in this fashion. That'd be silly, too.   
Due to their nature as runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually,
riding in wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can
forgive the riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride
on mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.
Because of this, elves suck.  It is known.

Notes:
   Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak.  They possess other abilities
to compensate.  If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.
Desert elves are not readily available to new players, but city elves
are. Prioritizing strength last and then asking for a strength boost
usually results in a "dude, you didn't read the helpfile" answer.

let me know if this is good or not

This is pretty awesome and deserves to be in the quote thread.

[timb]

How do city elves travel?

Well it help a lot that they can use beasts for pack animals, just you must make your p.c.  flog themselves in penance if they buy one from an npc, they bring out your mount and the elf jumps up on it's back first thing? Then the poor beast never gets a name because you can't title without being mounted! Other than that, pack beasts kick ass.

[HavokBlue]

I wish I'd noticed this thread when everyone was talking about how silly the in-game process for membership in c-elf clans is.

to complain...

or to offer a rebuttal? 

Inquiring minds wish to know!

I understand why new characters can't spawn into the Jaxa Pah or the Akai, it just always feels weird to me when every non-Jaxa c-elf effectively has no tribe, or a virtual one.

Have staff considered allowing players to app non-leader PCs in these clans via role application like the Red Fangs? Or do you guys already do this?

[spicemustflow]

Have staff considered allowing players to app non-leader PCs in these clans via role application like the Red Fangs? Or do you guys already do this?

They already do this.

[Creslin]

The trouble is, many players WANT to go exploring, they WANT to visit other places such as Luir's Outpost or Red Storm Village. And that's fair enough. I like to do those things too. But if you can't handle playing a completely indoors character, my recommendation is don't play a city elf! It's simply a role that's not for you. As others have said, there are exceptions as to why a city elf might leave his home, but they are such rare occurrences that I really am going to raise my eyebrows in question when I see one do it. Not in an "Oh my God this elf is riding a kank!" or "look at those Tulukis hugging a sorcerer!" kind of response, surely, but definitely a look of "something's not right here. I wonder what this is all about." The only reasonable exceptions that come to mind are: a templar has booted you out of the city as punishment for your crime, or strange magicks have brought you far into the wilderness and you have no choice but to find your way back (or to the nearest point of civilization).

This is pretty much why I will never play an elf. C-Elf stuck in the city and can never leave? D-Elf stuck in the desert with tribe and can never leave? I don't think I have what it takes to play one of those roles and as such I don't ever see myself rolling up an elf. I'm sure it's a lot of fun if you know how to play them and you're into that kind of thing but it's just not for me.

[Malifaxis]

Have staff considered allowing players to app non-leader PCs in these clans via role application like the Red Fangs? Or do you guys already do this?

They already do this.

Yep, but no one really knows about it.

[Maso]

I did not know about that.

[Iiyola]

I did not know about that.

Now you do!