Hate! (again)

[ShaLeah]

Remember that outward appearances don't always indicate inward feelings.

Namby-pamby passive-aggressive bullshit isn't exactly compelling to the 99.9% of us who can't read your thinks.

Heh. There, there. App a psi!

If there's any one thing more boring than what most of the playerbase is doing at any particular moment, it's what they're thinking.

And I find what they're thinking to be the most fascinating thing about them. I guess we'll just have to light a doob and agree to disagree.

[Synthesis]

Happy compromise: lots of hemotes and subtle hints in choices of wording.

Or just grow a pair and be outwardly racist (you don't have to start a fight to be racist, guys).

Ha, well...my last real bastard PC was such a dick that he even got run out of the 'rinth.

You better believe I killed me some krath-damn sharps along the way, though.

[maxid]

Anyone not speaking their mind is using too modern a mindset.  Casual racism is How Things Are.  Elves shouldn't even really get that mad about it, except for very strange exceptions.  I've seen humans get offended that people call the half-elf they hang out with a breed, because it's a slur.  People used the n-word casually, increeedibly casually, a hundred to a couple hundred years ago.  Read Huck Finn, or any other period literature, and it's just kind of how they talked.   Too many elves, breeds, dwarves, etc. get all offended if you dare act like they're a subhuman race, because they're confident in their ability to hide;backstab human;flee self;w;w;w;w that they get all cocksure, and the humans in the area let them remain cocksure with no checks on their behavior. 

Anyway, that was a bit of a rant, and may not have been easy to understand or follow, sorry.

[MeTekillot]

My last "good" PC was still a totes racist jerk. Just because your PC is some paragon of heroism and altruism doesn't mean that they genuinely don't think that elves and half-elves are bad people because, more often than not, that's the only notion that they've ever experienced with those two groups of people.

Speaking of a human PC, anyway.

[Eriad]

I think it's harder to play a racist with a non-human PC. If only because you're so outnumbered.

[th3kaiser]

Have to agree with Synthesis.
Mmmm....this thread makes me miss armageddon.  I really need some more hate in my life.

[Kronibas]

I know there's always the temptation to look at threads like this and think, "Oh fuck, not this argument again -- spare me, I've seen it a dozen times before," but to me it is a good exercise in refining and meditating on important aspects of the game, especially when each side presents valid, consideration-worthy points. 

[Cutthroat]

The thing one has to remember is that, unlike IRL, the racial stereotypes in Zalanthas are 100% true. Elves really are thieves, scammers, and charlatans. Dwarves really are stubbornly fixated on their focus. Humans really are dumber and slower than elves, and have demonstrably throughout history tried to keep them and the dwarves down. Half-elves really are emotional time-bombs tainted with elf/human blood, depending on which half you hate more.

Then you have the history of bad blood between the Labyrinth and Allanak proper, or Allanak and Tuluk. Although many of those events are in the past, new generations still have some idea of the nature of the collective "other side".

Indeed, pointing these things out is prejudiced, but it's also telling the truth. People of any group that have no grasp on the traits and history of the other groups shouldn't just be seen as being "too nice": they would probably be seen as, at best, dumb, and at worst, a <other group>-lover.

Even allowing for sides to things we never see, there's still a general standard for internal prejudice.  If a half-elf is asking for a job from a human and gets one, don't automatically assume the human's a breed-lover -  the human could be offering to pay the breed half of what he would pay a human, for more dangerous work than usual. Or maybe the human plans on finding the work unsatisfactory and not paying for it after all. In any case, something like that leads to deeper conflict than telling them at the bar "oh you breeds are such degenerate creatures", because the human would likely either brag about his treatment of the breed (lol I got this breed to check gortok dens for me before I go inside, for ten coins a den), or subtly point it out (hello fellow human, my breed is probably going to die on the job, you want to hunt together and split the catch 50/50?).

Personally I prefer that style over overt prejudice, because it seems more natural, although there were definitely PCs in an appropriate place to pick out a Tuluki, Allanaki, or an elf and proceed to call them names, or beat the crap out of them. It's just that, once things escalate that far, they don't come down again. There might be more name-calling, more beatings, but the conflict likely won't ever return to a point where you can just continuously screw those people over with The System. And that might be an acceptable loss for some players, but for others, that's probably the point where being prejudiced loses its fun.

[Maso]

Even allowing for sides to things we never see, there's still a general standard for internal prejudice.  If a half-elf is asking for a job from a human and gets one, don't automatically assume the human's a breed-lover -  the human could be offering to pay the breed half of what he would pay a human, for more dangerous work than usual. Or maybe the human plans on finding the work unsatisfactory and not paying for it after all. In any case, something like that leads to deeper conflict than telling them at the bar "oh you breeds are such degenerate creatures", because the human would likely either brag about his treatment of the breed (lol I got this breed to check gortok dens for me before I go inside, for ten coins a den), or subtly point it out (hello fellow human, my breed is probably going to die on the job, you want to hunt together and split the catch 50/50?).

This. And I would expect Decameron to be appreciative of the finer subtleties of role play!

I do agree though...

I had a 'nice' character recently-ish, and it was for a good reason and therefore explained in the character reports.

I've had an edgy, paranoid but generally disliking/hateful of various races and magickers etc - but this mostly comes out in thoughts/feels/hemotes and semotes.

The way Zalanthas is - even the most degrading racial slurs can be thrown around and used by people that consider themselves 'nice'. You shouldn't feel bad about calling a dwarf a 'fuckin' stump' to his face, because that's just the way it is.

[Morrolan]

The thing one has to remember is that, unlike IRL, the racial stereotypes in Zalanthas are 100% true.

It has come to my attention that the elvish stereotypes for humans (humans are slow and cannot run) are probably weak ones to pick. Let's look a little further into the elven mindset. Elves are thieves, but why? Is it just because they like stealing? Or is it just because the "laws" are unjust and biased against elves anyway, so stealing is an honorable act of rebellion. The legal system, such as it is, screws elves over...so why would elves show any loyalty to it at all?

We all play Armageddon here, and (let's face it) humans are no less evil than elves: they kill, they steal, they will take anything that is not nailed down. We all know this, but perhaps we do not look at it from a racial perspective.

Humans
What makes humans human? What is it that humans do that others do not?

The big-city humans, as a group, are a bunch of lawyers. Humans will use their legal authority to claim anything that is nailed down. They will kill and abuse people (people of other races, people outside the walls, people in the 'rinth), and then (passively) use that legal system for protection. As the system is racist and corrupt, trying to beat them at their own game is impossible.

Humans (and those inside their jurisdiction) consistently go into contested territory and then complain to their friends that they were raided by a raider. If they have sufficient social capital, they will get together with their friends and others, and go kill the raider--and take their stuff!

That is not justice, it is tribal warfare at its best. To anyone not from the city, it is raiding pure and simple.

To the other races, humans in Armageddon should be seen as brutal, legal-minded bullies and cowards. Think of the times of the worst colonial excesses, and that is Armageddon: rule by racist administrations that do not (generally) recognize equal rights for non-humans.

Are you having trouble getting a handle on the imbalance of justice associated with racism? In the U.S., settlers would kill natives, maybe rape a few women, takes some scalps, and claim native land, livestock, or whatever. When there were reprisals, they would play victim and call in the military.

That is what racism is. That is what it is like. Making fun of people in bars is not the same thing.

[Booya]

Let's look a little further into the elven mindset. Elves are thieves, but why? Is it just because they like stealing?

Yes!

Or is it just because the "laws" are unjust and biased against elves anyway, so stealing is an honorable act of rebellion.

Nope! They really are just thieving bastards.

Just making sure everyone is on the same page about elves - Cutthroat is right that the stereotype is 100% true:

From the docs:

The elf does not consider the theft to be the breaking of a law (although they do understand human laws, on an intellectual level); theft is not desirable because it is a form of rebellion for an elf, not because it makes them superior, and not because it increases their wealth (although the latter two may sometimes be true). Theft is desirable simply because it is. They simply take it for the sake of the act itself.

Now, one way that theft is not like art for elves is that all elves love it. This might help you understand how elven society perceives theft.

[Maso]

Yup. Time to roll out an elf!

[Morrolan]

From the docs:

The elf does not consider the theft to be the breaking of a law (although they do understand human laws, on an intellectual level); theft is not desirable because it is a form of rebellion for an elf, not because it makes them superior, and not because it increases their wealth (although the latter two may sometimes be true). Theft is desirable simply because it is. They simply take it for the sake of the act itself.

Now, one way that theft is not like art for elves is that all elves love it. This might help you understand how elven society perceives theft.

This is a nature/nurture argument. In this game, nature wins hands-down. Elves are thieves, half-elves are broken, dwarves are obsessed, etc. I suspect this is done for simplicity's sake and to avoid arguments.

Descended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery. [Emphasis mine]

Look at the following statement:
"All elves have a cultural bent..."

Really? Well, it is just a game and we can play it that way. But that is not (in my professional, not personal, opinion) the way culture works. In fact, to me, it makes elves unplayable. It makes them all subject to a form of madness which looks like a strange mix of kleptomania and sociopathy. This madness prevents them from acting in either their own best interest or that of the group.

Yes, thievery is the way of establishing social status among elves. I get that. Just as all gith are, more or less, ravening monsters. In Armageddon, racism is not only inherent, it is naturally enforced. That is what it means when Cutthroat says that "stereotypes are 100% correct." By "naturally enforced" I really mean "enforced by staff and the docs."

But to return to my main point, what are the "racial" attributes of humans? In what ways do humans "always" act? Do humans have "racial behaviors" that constrict their play?

• Humans are racist.
• Humans fear/loathe magickers and psionicists.
• Humans will kill to maintain their power at the top of the social hierarchy.
• Humans always act in their own best interests.
• Humans believe that possession is nine-tenths of the law.

These would be the equivalent behaviors for humans in the game, much like the ones from "The Elven Persona" listed above by Booya.

In the game, I would like to move to a more nuanced view of elves, just as we have of humans. Yes, "all" human groups in the game are like that (I think--possibly excepting tribal groups).

Does that mean I want to see elves riding kanks? Elves and humans walking down the road holding hands and singing love songs to one another? Heck, no. But I would like to see characters who are drawn to do these things being oppressed by the system for their failures to conform. It makes for more interesting storytelling, more interesting RP.

P.S. This is not a case of "be the change you want to see in Armageddon." This is a case of "report your foul deeds to the staff and let them adjudicate the results."

[spicemustflow]

Really? Well, it is just a game and we can play it that way. But that is not (in my professional, not personal, opinion) the way culture works. In fact, to me, it makes elves unplayable. It makes them all subject to a form of madness which looks like a strange mix of kleptomania and sociopathy. This madness prevents them from acting in either their own best interest or that of the group.

Well, that's why elves don't have huge settlements and civilization like humans do. I really love that aspect of them and wouldn't want to see them turned into some sort of rebels with a cause. They're the disease, not the cure.

[Patuk]

This is a nature/nurture argument. In this game, nature wins hands-down. Elves are thieves, half-elves are broken, dwarves are obsessed, etc. I suspect this is done for simplicity's sake and to avoid arguments.

Look at the following statement:
"All elves have a cultural bent..."

Really? Well, it is just a game and we can play it that way. But that is not (in my professional, not personal, opinion) the way culture works. In fact, to me, it makes elves unplayable. It makes them all subject to a form of madness which looks like a strange mix of kleptomania and sociopathy. This madness prevents them from acting in either their own best interest or that of the group.

Yes, thievery is the way of establishing social status among elves. I get that. Just as all gith are, more or less, ravening monsters. In Armageddon, racism is not only inherent, it is naturally enforced. That is what it means when Cutthroat says that "stereotypes are 100% correct." By "naturally enforced" I really mean "enforced by staff and the docs."

But to return to my main point, what are the "racial" attributes of humans? In what ways do humans "always" act? Do humans have "racial behaviors" that constrict their play?

• Humans are racist.
• Humans fear/loathe magickers and psionicists.
• Humans will kill to maintain their power at the top of the social hierarchy.
• Humans always act in their own best interests.
• Humans believe that possession is nine-tenths of the law.

These would be the equivalent behaviors for humans in the game, much like the ones from "The Elven Persona" listed above by Booya.

In the game, I would like to move to a more nuanced view of elves, just as we have of humans. Yes, "all" human groups in the game are like that (I think--possibly excepting tribal groups).

Does that mean I want to see elves riding kanks? Elves and humans walking down the road holding hands and singing love songs to one another? Heck, no. But I would like to see characters who are drawn to do these things being oppressed by the system for their failures to conform. It makes for more interesting storytelling, more interesting RP.

No.

Humans are racist if their environment was racist, and racism in Armageddon is more often than not just true. It's not just humans who hate sorcerers and psionicists, it's everyone. Humans won't act in their best interests if they're part of some tribe or fierce patriots of their city-state. They might have very specific thoughts about the law. Elves, on the other hand, are all raised in a single way - in their tribe, where it is ingrained every single day that scamming people not in your tribe is good. Even if they're not in a tribe, they'll be treated as thieves everyday, and their fondness of stealing things -might- very well be just inherited, since there are no true genetics on Zalanthas. If you feel playing a character who wants to steal everything makes him unplayable, you're looking at it in the wrong way, anyway - elves are conmen more than thieves, and they're by no means stupid. But an elf who would feel oppressed by some sort of system? That.. That really goes awfully far, it does. It's the same as playing a dwarf who feels oppressed by him being expected to have a focus.

[Kryos]

This thread makes me chuckle.  First, an brief story.  Been a year, so I can talk about this.

Last time I was in Allanak, my PC was sitting in the Gaj enjoying the atmosphere, if you would.  When in walks a <undesirable>.  Not to mention that, but its a outlander.  It asks for help finding something, and my PC proceeded to berate said undesirable to the point of seeming madness:  it physically attacked him.

It died, of course, and then someone dashed over to loot the body and run out onto the streets.

Armageddon at its finest, not quite.  But it was good. 

As a rule, I generally agree with what the OP said, nuances aside.  On the other hand, I've had PCs who tried to use undesirables for their own ends, discreetly, because the story demanded it of them.

So, yeah, some PCs aren't so discreet, some are.  Just play and enjoy yourself, everything else will fall together.

[Decameron]

Updated the original post with some stolen ideas great material provided through this discussion. 99 problems but a breed ain't one.

[SpyGuy]

One of my favorite interactions on a former PC consisted of two lines of dialogue.

Some PC who had the wrong accent, acting a bit like a douche, " So ye having a good day?"
Me: "Was." Then I walk out of the tavern and he emotes some cool response.

Hate or just prejudice can be really fun to RP.  I didn't stifle every RP encounter but talking to every gemmer/rinthi/foreigner/breed/elf can throw me off from what the character would do.  You don't have to be psychotic about your hate but being rude to others usually goes over just fine on both ends of the RP.  Assume every elf is a thief, every 'gicker is just waiting to put a curse on you and every breed is a total loser.  You give those PCs a chance to RP reacting to discrimination which is awesome as well.

[Lutagar]

It might just be self-preservation that stops discrimination being over the top

Those on the receiving end can bottle it up and it can simmer for some time, knowing talking back will make things worse

Until someone pushes them too far and they decide they don't care anymore

There's nothing more scary than when that breed eventually snaps

It happens so often it's even an IC stereotype

[AdamBlue]

The way Hate as I see it to be played out, and this is my opinion and as a new player I could be flawed, but the easiest way to go about it is-

There are varying degrees of hate for different groups and races. Let me put it like this- Let's assume you're a normal human in Allanak.

There is no social stigma for a human to be friends with a dwarf, or at least as far as I can tell. Dwarves who are total bros are awesome. For a Dwarf to be a pretty fantastic guy though, is rare, so asshole dwarves, the most common type, are just usually ignored. The racist word of calling them Stumps or any kind of 'short' joke seems to be almost endearing, and quite frankly, it seems they don't give two fucks.  Then again, I've never played a dwarf. A romantic relationship would be awkward and strange, as the female party does NOT want to get pregnant, as- Well, it would kill her.

Humans usually hates elves. Elves are known for being stealing, swindling succubi of 'sid. If you have one as a friend, it's usually strictly a business relationship. That's okay. Anything else, not so much. A romantic one is nigh heard of, because the resulting factor would be a half-elf, and half-elves... Well, I'll  get to that.

Human beings fucking love Half-giants. Half-giants are the best friends you can have. They're stupid, lovable, mega-strong oafs. A romantic relationship -will- kill you, in a literal way, but jokingly flirting with a half-giant due to the massive size of their endowments isn't actually looked down upon. Half-giants are pretty much just super-humans who happen to be dumb. They're moreso seen kind of affectionately, like mounts.

Mul's are like dwarves, except there's always that extreme distrust. Mul's are always made into slavery, most often by humans. Humans can't tell what a Mul is thinking, Mul's can be crazy. Not to mention that, if they go absofuckinglutely berserk, they will destroy EVERYTHING.

Halflings- I've never seen a halfling.

Half-elves are shit. Fuck half-elves. Unless you have a goddamn reason to talk to a half-elf, you don't talk to half-elves. And they probably don't wanna talk to you, either. They're all the thievery of elves in human-sized little shitcakes. If you're fucking a half-elf, then you probably are a desperate motherfucker, unless they're like a goddamn F-me princess who people can't tell is a half-elf.

----------------------------------------------

For groups, and let's look at this from an Allanaki point of view, most Northies are wimps. They got all the water they could want. Bitch trees. Oh, and they whine so much because of their Kryl, stupid northie fucks. Like babies.

Gemmed? Eh... First rule of Gemmed, is that we don't talk to gemmed. Unless it's business, you stay away from them. They're monsters. But like any monster, they can be tamed and put to use. But you can't trust 'em farther then you can throw 'em. They can do all sorts of crazy, stupid shit. They'll make you IMPLODE.

Fuckin' Gypsies. Goddamn, they're hot. Fuck their brains out, they're all horny sluts. But, uh- Be careful. Don't take your weapons off yer person when you do it. They migh' stab you in the back 'n get off, then rob you blind and leave you to bleed.

Tribals? Eh. They bring in some business, but they're all north. Whatever, man.
--------------------------------------------

If any of this is incorrect, then please correct me. This is just the vibe I've gotten so far. I won't keep going, because I feel like I've already overstepped my time in writing this.
I

[AmandaGreathouse]

Most of what you said, adamblue, I can see how you might feel that way. I hate getting ripped off so much that it makes it really easy not to play an elf, because the idea of doing something I disagree with so much (on a level, playing a habitual thief, or being proud of being a thief and etc. That's part of the reason I favor play in Allanak.

Now, don't get me wrong, I will put you to work if you're working for one of my pcs and I find out you have those skills. I just don't enjoy spending my time playing it. Kudos to the ones who do it well. I don't think I could ever play one for long. I've tried a few times, but I always find up with this sense of 'meh', as soon as I log in with any sort of an elf.

Half elves I love to hate and hate to love. I enjoy playing them, and I am usually attracted to the well played ones as like, someone you don't mind spending time in the bar with, although you'd never publicly admit it or feel okay about it. I've had a handful of my pcs wind up publicly admitting to being with a half-elf... but just as often, they'd loathe themselves for it, and minimize the breed and talk shit about them behind their back.

As for dwarves.... eh. A well played one is entertaining as a novelty, but I would imagine the guy that can never pull his head out of his ass (ass = daydreams/schemes of/about focus/how to achieve focus) would get old -fast-.

And while you may love the hell out of a half-giant, they eat a lot, they're huge, they take up a lot of space, they're dumb and often forgetful, plus they are mimics, making it exceptionally bad for them to be around listening during a private meeting. Yeah, they can hunt and they're pretty super and all, but they have one thing which is their huge weakness: their idiocy. I hate idiots. Useful idiots can be tolerated, but regular old idiots... ick.

As to the notion of muls, I'm usually crazy about and enchanted by the play of the muls I've seen. Good work, yo. That is all.

I dunno, I'm out, now. Heh.

[AdamBlue]

Oh! Don't take me wrong, -I- love elves, and I know they're not swindlers. I'm just going from a vantage point of a typical southern Allanak human commoner, or what I at least think they would think.

[Yam]

Elves are swindlers. That's the truest stereotype in the game.

[Akaramu]

Your perception of gypsies is wrong. 

[path]

I actually really enjoyed his perception of gypsies.