Hate! (again)

[Decameron]

While this is mostly directed towards Allanak, it can be taken within the context of just about any role, in any location in the game. This topic has been discussed in the past, and I rant, but with the recent influx of new players I've been seeing, I thought it appropriate to stress this.

Hate!(or Decameron's Spiteful Guide to Hate)

There are certain acceptable prejudices in game, and this is based out of your up-bringing, where you grew up, and your own character's background. There are, of course, exceptions to all of these hatreds or stereotypes, but for the vast majority, you have to understand that you would be just that, the exception.

What would be acceptable prejudices for your common Allanaki?

Disliking/distrusting someone based upon their race (elves, dwarves, etc), where they come from (i.e. if they are a foreigner, if they came from the 'rinth, Tuluk, etc), if they are Gemmed, mutants (Don't think that baby-arm hanging out of that guy's head was a 'blessing from the Highlord," or those who associate with any of these individuals publicly in an amiable fashion, as stated here, below.

If your friend is chummy with a gemmed or rinthi rat, let that create tension between you.

What are unacceptable prejudices?

Disliking/distrusting someone based upon their sexual preference, the color of their skin or based upon sex. There is no sexism in Zalanthas (regardless of how this actually works out is a little less than I'd like to see at times) Men and women are EQUAL. There's no, "You hit like a woman." Or, "Stop being a girl!" The color of a person's skin ought not to be a factor, either. Those who are -really- pale, are typically albinos or have enough station to have avoided the sun-light for an extended period of time (i.e. Nobility), and while this might be a little strange considering the settings, no one is going to tell a Noble they look weird (without potential serious consequences).  There is no discrimination based upon the decision of two men wish to share a bed, nor two women. As long as those men and women are both of the same race, it's all just another day in His City.

But I want to get along with everyone, making people feel bad, makes me feel bad, Decameron.

Fuck 'em. When that person received karma, and told themselves, "Hey wow! That krathi looks he'd be awesome to play!" - They knew what they were getting into. People ought to look and read the documentation of their race/background locations before they app their character. This means that they accept whatever hatreds will be passed along their way as a given. This isn't a bad thing, conflict due to prejudices can be great RP.

But that Krathi is a Gemmed in your example, that makes it okay.

No. It doesn't. Just because the rest of the World would kill them for what they are, doesn't make you 'friends'. It doesn't mean that without that Gem around their throat, they wouldn't kill you in an instant.  That 'rinther that seems so 'nice,' comes from the worst part of the City, and they survived there for a long time, and chances are, it wasn't by being nice. That elf or half-breed isn't like you, they are all thieves, or half-thieves, sneaking about in the shadows and taking 'sid from your pocket when you aren't looking. Your people invaded the North, took it over, raped and murdered a good portion of the population, before being removed from the City, just take it into consideration, next time you want to pal-around with your Northern friends.

This makes me seem so callous, though! What ca-

You walk across Meleth's every day. There are dead children in the streets with flies eating out their eyes, starving men and women begging with their last breaths in the streets. Do you stop every time and weep, giving them your 'sid? No. You walk along thinking, "Man, can't wait to get me those new sweet boots in the bazaar!" You are already callous. Taking that to the next level and pressing it upon those not like your character, isn't so much different. The only thing different between a NPC begging in the street, and a PC begging in the street, is there is a player behind one of them. To your character? There is no difference.

This is not carebearageddon.

This is not real-life. It's okay to hate, maybe you'll even start to find you like it a little.

Also: remeber, as pointed out below, as well, that there are always different ways to go about displaying your hatred, and it isn't always necessarily a straight-forward affair:

Hate does not equal: "Get in your face and start shit with you." Most of the time. There are varying degrees, depending on the character and depending on who the target is.

But Decameron, I am the exception!

Fantastic, have a stable reason for why your character would choose to associate with those who the general majority might despise. There's nothing wrong with this (from an OOC perspective) as long as there is suitable justification. Some very good options for any further questions or how you might go about doing this are listed below.

On the flip side, if your character is taking part in situations that contravene the docs and there are, you feel, good reasons for it, put it in your character reports. This can have multiple effects, all of them good for RP:

• If you are really over the line, staff can let you know better than some hate thread on the GDB.
• NPCs and vNPCs may have something to say. You kanked a sharp, roundear? Perhaps your promotion gets rejected or delayed.
• PC haters get something to hate. Merchant Sellall might be untouchable, but no one will complain when some halfbreed goes missing.
• PC leaders get plot-fodder to work with. You kanked a southie scum? Good, do it again, and here is a poison dagger.
• Personal documentation (character reports and bio entries) provide you with a chance to really look at your character's internal cohesion and create more consistent, realistic responses.

If you are ignoring the documentation, it is your responsibility to make certain that the game world reacts realistically. That means communication.

Okay, I am ready to start hating, Decameron, but how do I go about it?

Well, like many things in Armageddon, it depends entirely upon your character, their outlook, background, personality, etc.  Prejudices in game can take on many unique and varying forms, although there are two basic categories: The direct approach and discreet approach.

The direct approach:
This is far beyond simply getting into a bar fight at the Gaj because a half-breed looked at you the wrong way (although, that can happen too). The direct approach is just as it sounds, a more vocal, in-your-face technique of letting that particular half-breed/elf/dwarf/rinther/etc know that your character is well aware of what they are, and their place in the world. That 'rinther long-neck just offered you buy you a drink - what the fuck is his angle? Is he trying to get you drunk so he can rob you? You're a Bynner and you notice a half-breed runner in front of you while waiting for stew. Tch, not on your watch. Cut the fucker in line, hey emo-breed - human's first.

Remember two things, however, the first being that while playing the bully/victim role in these circumstances, there can be consequences to your actions, just like in anything else. Maybe when you're hanging off the shield wall because Sergeant Douchebag doesn't know where he's going, that same half-breed might offer a boot instead of a helping hand. Secondly, this is a game, and your objective should never be to make another person's character unplayable. Hate is supposed to be fun, in a spiteful sort've way.

..there are so many other people playing 'nice' that there's an easy option of not bothering to follow up the rp opportunity.  But actually, I think lots of you would be surprised at how many players -are- willing to play along, both as victims and as aggressors. Try it and see. Because hate in Armageddon is fun! I have to say I really enjoy rp'ing it  

Keep in the back of your mind that it's a game and you might not really want to get so carried away for it to become unpleasant OOC for the player behind your victim - whether that's verging on OOC bullying, or trying to make your enemy's life so relentlessly miserable that their role becomes miserable too and not give them a way out except storing/suicide, etc.  And if you decide to play a loud, obnoxious douche you may get what's coming to you, but that's okay!

The discreet approach:
Of course, not all racism is overt. It certainly doesn't have to be (you whiney Tuluki bastards), it can be subtle, but the important point to remember is: it still exists. Subtly doesn't equate to being agreeable to racial equality, it means simply taking advantage of the system to put those who are rightfully beneath you, in their place, so you might maintain (or even improve) your own station. Some suggestions as to how to approach this as below:

The thing one has to remember is that, unlike IRL, the racial stereotypes in Zalanthas are 100% true. Elves really are thieves, scammers, and charlatans. Dwarves really are stubbornly fixated on their focus. Humans really are dumber and slower than elves, and have demonstrably throughout history tried to keep them and the dwarves down. Half-elves really are emotional time-bombs tainted with elf/human blood, depending on which half you hate more.

Even allowing for sides to things we never see, there's still a general standard for internal prejudice.  If a half-elf is asking for a job from a human and gets one, don't automatically assume the human's a breed-lover -  the human could be offering to pay the breed half of what he would pay a human, for more dangerous work than usual. Or maybe the human plans on finding the work unsatisfactory and not paying for it after all. In any case, something like that leads to deeper conflict than telling them at the bar "oh you breeds are such degenerate creatures", because the human would likely either brag about his treatment of the breed (lol I got this breed to check gortok dens for me before I go inside, for ten coins a den), or subtly point it out (hello fellow human, my breed is probably going to die on the job, you want to hunt together and split the catch 50/50?).

Personally I prefer that style over overt prejudice, because it seems more natural, although there were definitely PCs in an appropriate place to pick out a Tuluki, Allanaki, or an elf and proceed to call them names, or beat the crap out of them. It's just that, once things escalate that far, they don't come down again. There might be more name-calling, more beatings, but the conflict likely won't ever return to a point where you can just continuously screw those people over with The System. And that might be an acceptable loss for some players, but for others, that's probably the point where being prejudiced loses its fun.

Whichever approach you take is your call, and even if you choose to completely ignore this aspect of the game, realize that others will not, and they are more than capable of observing your actions with others in a public domain. So when you introduce your new mate, the three-eyed, half-breed. 'rinther gemmed, to your friends, don't be surprised if you don't have many friends, after the fact.

So, yeah, some PCs aren't so discreet, some are.  Just play and enjoy yourself, everything else will fall together.

[Dakota]

pretty much.

[A Large Bag]

Which is all mostly fine. Keep in mind however, you aren't going to openly display hate toward those that can kill you unless you don't care about your own life. Lipping off to an evil witch with evil terrible magicks, is asking to be blown up, cursed so your genitals shrivel, etc.

[BadSkeelz]

Hehe, I know who this is directed to.

[Drayab]

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. But maybe that's a Tuluki thing? 

[Akaramu]

Hehe, I know who this is directed to.

I'm sure it's not directed at anyone in particular. Decameron doesn't write up such posts for a single person.   I've observed this trend myself over years and years. One time I sent a kudos to someone for a 15 minute interaction simply because they were being a complete and utter douchebag to my PC.

Will contribute to the discussion later, am sleepy.

[Decameron]

Which is all mostly fine. Keep in mind however, you aren't going to openly display hate toward those that can kill you unless you don't care about your own life. Lipping off to an evil witch with evil terrible magicks, is asking to be blown up, cursed so your genitals shrivel, etc.

While this is true enough - that guy you just got into a brawl with at the Gaj could have a poisoned dagger, be a bender, ungemmed, fire-kank in disguise or any number of things that could royally destroy your pitiful life. If all if us weren't in the business of taking risks, no one would ever speak to anyone else. What makes you think that being nice to a gemmed would stop it from cursing you? Sure, it's appropriate to fear the Gemmed, but you know what yoda says about fear.

Edited to add: Generally directed, not to anyone in particular. Also, I forgot to include skin-color under inappropriate prejudices and can't seem to get that far down to edit the original post on my phone. But will do so when I get back home.

[A Large Bag]

Which is all mostly fine. Keep in mind however, you aren't going to openly display hate toward those that can kill you unless you don't care about your own life. Lipping off to an evil witch with evil terrible magicks, is asking to be blown up, cursed so your genitals shrivel, etc.

While this is true enough - that guy you just got into a brawl with at the Gaj could have a poisoned dagger, be a bender, ungemmed, fire-kank in disguise or any number of things that could royally destroy your pitiful life. If all if us weren't in the business of taking risks, no one would ever speak to anyone else. What makes you think that being nice to a gemmed would stop it from cursing you? Sure, it's appropriate to fear the Gemmed, but you know what yoda says about fear.

I didn't say anything about being nice to it did I? I just said being openly offensive to a witch (a gemmed one) one you know has all sorts of mysterious and evil powers would quite obviously be a fool's game. I don't think it would be the norm over ignoring, avoiding, or talking shit behind their backs. Hate does not equal: "Get in your face and start shit with you." Most of the time. There are varying degrees, depending on the character and depending on who the target is.

[Patuk]

I think a large amount of the unwilingness of RPing people who hate others for whatever reason comes from the fact that they fear it might stifle RP. Even though fights and conflicts can make for great RP, I don't doubt that there's many people who don't want to RP anymore with the guy who insulted their precious character.

[BadSkeelz]

I think a large amount of the unwilingness of RPing people who hate others for whatever reason comes from the fact that they fear it might stifle RP. Even though fights and conflicts can make for great RP, I don't doubt that there's many people who don't want to RP anymore with the guy who insulted their precious character.

I think the inverse might play a part, too, that people are too afraid that their character's bigotry will get their character ganked. I know I've played an asshole much more readily in games where I have some coded protection from just being immediately set on fire or whatever. There's not much else I can add safely on the GDB, unfortunately.

[Booya]

What would be acceptable prejudices for your common Allanaki?

Disliking/distrusting someone based upon their race (elves, dwarves, etc), where they come from (i.e. if they are a foreigner, if they came from the 'rinth, Tuluk, etc), if they are Gemmed, to name a few.

Also, widen the dislike/distrust to people who are openly friendly/fine with different races, people from different places, gemmers etc. If your friend is chummy with a gemmed or rinthi rat, let that create tension between you.

I think a large amount of the unwilingness of RPing people who hate others for whatever reason comes from the fact that they fear it might stifle RP. Even though fights and conflicts can make for great RP, I don't doubt that there's many people who don't want to RP anymore with the guy who insulted their precious character.

Because they're looking at it the wrong way, or there are so many other people playing 'nice' that there's an easy option of not bothering to follow up the rp opportunity.  But actually, I think lots of you would be surprised at how many players -are- willing to play along, both as victims and as aggressors. Try it and see. Because hate in Armageddon is fun! I have to say I really enjoy rp'ing it 

Keep in the back of your mind that it's a game and you might not really want to get so carried away for it to become unpleasant OOC for the player behind your victim - whether that's verging on OOC bullying, or trying to make your enemy's life so relentlessly miserable that their role becomes miserable too and not give them a way out except storing/suicide, etc.  And if you decide to play a loud, obnoxious douche you may get what's coming to you, but that's okay!

Also, the word HHHate always reminds me of this inspirational clip of the Guv'nor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW4nDD4keik

[maxid]

Because they're looking at it the wrong way, or there are so many other people playing 'nice' that there's an easy option of not bothering to follow up the rp opportunity. 

I love Decameron's post, and agree with it 100%.  Booya also brings up a point, but doesn't fully explore it - People who should be hated by pretty much everyone are, instead, surrounded by friends and powerful allies.  Rinthi's rise to high positions in powerful Houses, Gemmers pal around with whomever, elves and humans ~*Fall In Love*~ all the time, and they don't immediately lose all their friends for it, or the response is muted... So fucking with those people, who chose actively to play the scum of the Known, will get you in shit with all sorts of people who will suddenly flip it around on you.  Obviously not every time, and these examples are, by definition, anecdotal.  However, it happens often enough that people notice it and comment on it.  It's obviously not the people posting in this thread, it may not even be people who actively read the GDB, but I don't think I've ever gone more than a month with an actively played character, and -not- seen some egregious violation of social norms like the ones I mentioned, or worse.

[valeria]

I think a large amount of the unwilingness of RPing people who hate others for whatever reason comes from the fact that they fear it might stifle RP. Even though fights and conflicts can make for great RP, I don't doubt that there's many people who don't want to RP anymore with the guy who insulted their precious character.

These people who avoid conflict for OOC reasons don't understand that hatred is interaction.  The absolute worst thing you can do to another character, from an OOC perspective, is not to hate them or start conflict with them, it's to ignore them.  Avoiding obvious conflict is what stifles interaction (though it might make perfect IC sense if your character is really the one avoiding a conflict).

[musashi]

Agreed. But I don't even think that avoiding gemmers and the like is bad form. People who sign on to play higher karma roles understand that the trade-off for the coded power the karma guild or race brings is counter balanced directly by the social ostracizetion.

So my advice would be, pour on the hate when it's your local breed, city elf, or stump. But don't feel bad about putting distance between you and a gemmed mage. Isolation comes with the role.

[Morrolan]

If you believe that you are seeing extremely poor RP that is against the docs, write a character report player complaint. As with PK, staff know (or can choose to know) a lot more of the situation than you.

[EDIT because I was feverish and having difficulty thinking, yesterday.]

On the flip side, if your character is taking part in situations that contravene the docs and there are, you feel, good reasons for it, put it in your character reports. This can have multiple effects, all of them good for RP:

• If you are really over the line, staff can let you know better than some hate thread on the GDB.
• NPCs and vNPCs may have something to say.
      You kanked a sharp, roundear? Perhaps your promotion gets rejected or delayed.
• PC haters get something to hate.
      Merchant Sellall might be untouchable, but no one will complain when some halfbreed goes missing.
• PC leaders get plot-fodder to work with.
      You kanked a southie scum? Good, do it again, and here is a poison dagger.
• Personal documentation (character reports and bio entries) provide you with a chance to really look at your character's internal cohesion and create more consistent, realistic responses.

If you are ignoring the documentation, it is your responsibility to make certain that the game world reacts realistically. That means communication.

[Decameron]

Whoops. Sorry, made a mistake while editing the original post to include a few other replies from others.

[Maso]

People complain about this issue a lot. And I think...yes, there are probably a few too many 'nice' folk - because lots of people want to be the exception. But I also think there is probably another breed of character...the ones who hate internally but might not make a point of showing it. They might smile and be friendly to a magicker because they need something from them....but at the same time hating every minute. These characters probably get lumped in with the 'nice' folk, because well...you can't read their minds (hesitantly written) so you assume that they are ignoring the culturally ingrained prejudices.

Also, a lot of people want to the exception. And I think there can and have been some great exceptions, and sometimes it makes sense. But there is no special app process for being the exception in this regard - so the staff can't limit the number of 'nice' characters in the game. And sometimes, I guess, there's just a whole bunch.

If the same players are playing nice over and over and over...then they probably need a little nudge from the staff. Mix it up a bit.

[BadSkeelz]

People complain about this issue a lot. And I think...yes, there are probably a few too many 'nice' folk - because lots of people want to be the exception. But I also think there is probably another breed of character...the ones who hate internally but might not make a point of showing it. They might smile and be friendly to a magicker because they need something from them....but at the same time hating every minute. These characters probably get lumped in with the 'nice' folk, because well...you can't read their minds (hesitantly written) so you assume that they are ignoring the culturally ingrained prejudices.

Putting that kind of character detail into character reports, as Morrolan said, is probably a damn good idea. Staff can read our character's minds, but they can't read ours if there's not enough in the logs to go by.

[Synthesis]

All the asshole characters either start in or end up in a) the 'rinth b) the Byn c) Kurac d) Red Storm or e) Allanaki Templarate*, because those are their natural habitats.

Every single other role in the game is so fraught with petty political tension that pretty much any attempt at being off-color will get you corrected or killed.  You can't even be an asshole elf these days without someone flexing on your whole tribe.  About the worst you can do is fart and belch a lot and RP being generally disgusting.

Hell, sometimes you can't even be an asshole in the Byn or Kurac, if you've got a straight-laced killjoy in charge.

*But you still have to choose your targets wisely.

[ShaLeah]

Remember that outward appearances don't always indicate inward feelings.

[Synthesis]

Remember that outward appearances don't always indicate inward feelings.

Namby-pamby passive-aggressive bullshit isn't exactly compelling to the 99.9% of us who can't read your thinks.

[ShaLeah]

Remember that outward appearances don't always indicate inward feelings.

Namby-pamby passive-aggressive bullshit isn't exactly compelling to the 99.9% of us who can't read your thinks.

Heh. There, there. App a psi!

[Delirium]

Happy compromise: lots of hemotes and subtle hints in choices of wording.

Or just grow a pair and be outwardly racist (you don't have to start a fight to be racist, guys).

[Synthesis]

Remember that outward appearances don't always indicate inward feelings.

Namby-pamby passive-aggressive bullshit isn't exactly compelling to the 99.9% of us who can't read your thinks.

Heh. There, there. App a psi!

If there's any one thing more boring than what most of the playerbase is doing at any particular moment, it's what they're thinking.

[Lithium]

+1 Great thread..

Code Select Expand

Hissing, the thin figure in a dark, hooded cloak says, in oddly-accented sirihish:
   "Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you."