more than just this??

[Bob]

I think there is something missing about arm, all you do is try live kill anyone for anything no culture (except for maby tribes) yeah I know its a dying world but killing people for stuff 24 7 is kinda boring, maby im missing something here but I dunno its kinda dull.

[Mekeda]

I'm fairly sure that if all you are trying to do is kill stuff, you are completely missing most of the game. In fact, I don't know of many people who do just try to kill things. Perhaps take some time off from whacking beasts and visit a local tavern and start talking with people to find the deeper, richer side of Armageddon that makes it so addictive.


Mekeda

sadistic spice


Look, the happy kank is smoking spice, why aren't you?

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Yes, there is more than that. Really.

The documentation is misleading, sometimes. It's a desperate world that's hard to survive in, yes, but that doesn't mean you'll be grappling with a scrab all the time. There are merchants, politicians, law enforcers, entertainers... You can do just about anything you can do in the real world in Arm, and then some.

If you don't like the hack and slash hunting side of things, than all I can say is Armageddon is the -perfect- place for you. Try making a merchant, and check out the complex crafting code as you hustle to make a living. Take a job with the militia or a mercenary company to see the deeper side of Armageddon's more combat-oriented characters. Play a poor pickpocket that must steal food to live, or a noble aide to get immersed in rich, political plotlines.

The possibilities are -endless-. If you think that killing animals is the only thing you can do in Armageddon... Then you haven't played enough, simply put. Killing stuff is really a tiny part of the game.

[Galdun]

Play a street smart, thief linguist.  Most fun you'll ever have.

[Imho]

Perhaps Bob has a point though.  I feel too many are dieing in game.  My observations and conversations have lead me to think of three things as the major issues that have a negative impact on the game.  1.  Players, not just the "newbie" are disregarding the files that make up the culture found in game.  2.  People use less imagination with their characters.  3.  Not enough Imm intervention to change numbers one and two.

1.  The culture of the game is laid out the reading docs.  And yet there are constantly players whose characters seem to disregard this.  People, -these- are what forms the society... the culture that we all love.  When too many players start disreguarding them... we loose our culture.  Don't think so?  What about these?  An example would be all the green clothing now for sale.  Green is a feared color people!!  An example would be all the nobles in game who act like the templarate, or the commoners that treat them as such.  Far be it for nobles to be on the same scale as the commoners, but the docs are clear about the differences between nobles and templars as far as commoners go.  A final example might be an almost lack between the "common" commoner.  Why have whole institutions set up (hope I'm not being too IC here) to teach people how to work for the higher society... if every character is expected to or already plays like, they know and understand the system already?  

I think people are becoming less imaginative with their characters.  Punishments of death and hefty fines (again with the sids) seem to be more common than anything else, when whippings and simply being disgraced publicly have come to an end.  This also has a great influence on newbie players who almost always are punished.  Instead of having 10+ day old characters... newbies could learn a lot through punishments which allowed them to continue to live and learn!  More and more f-me players seem to be around... I say if they look that great, it's probably due to magick.  And finally... has anyone else noticed how characters who are not the "stereotypical" characters are quickly disposed?  Yes, the game has set roles for the people... but going back to the discussion of bar fights, sense when do the nobility expect the commoners, even when working for them, to not fight like animals when angered?  Or to keep clean?  Using stereotypical characters again and again takes away from the well-rounded characters.

Imm intervention.  I want to make it known this is not an attack on them, indeed this game continues to have some of the best.  However, it has been my observation that they have let the above issues continue and have let the balance of power fall.  This game is set up where power (political, social, and economic) are fairly well divided.    Theoretically,  the nobles have the political power, the merchant houses have more economic power, and everyone else holds a bit of social power in that they provide the nobles and merchants with their power.  However, look at the game...  Often, I believe because people are forgetting about npcs and vnpcs who are indeed "stronger" than they, the powers have been shifted to one or two groups (or sometimes even people) with in the game.  This shift in balance makes it almost impossible for pc characters to change anything.  Or another example is probably going on in almost every house... The houses almost always take the side of the servant (insert the ol' "Whatever happened to the days when if children where in trouble at school they were in trouble at home?")  This is where the Imms are letting the game down; they need to represent all the other non-pc characters to help keep the powers in check.  

To me "hack and slash" games are boring because everyone is one sided and stereotypical.  This is where Bob's point comes into play... if Arm continues this trend of not following our own written culture, of rewarding stereotypical characters, of only paying attention to pc characters... how are we to distinguish ourselves from other hack and slash games?

[Krath]

I agree with your point one and two.

[Anarchy]

The 'rinth is the greatest place i can think of so far - of course i have only had like, three PCs so im bais,  if your smart, and dont go in there with a desire to kill everything that moved and great armour, its very fun.

I fail to see why everyone fears it...

[Dakkon Black]

I think the true value of arm lays in the political possibilities. Any game you can shoot shit. In this game you can make it trust you before you shoot it  :twisted:  Where else can you marry the woman you want to poison? Have your head removed by a bored Templar? Like was stated killing stuff... sure you can do it here but you can do that in any game out there. The real gold here is the interactivity. What CANT you do? Can you blow up a building and permanently change the world> Hell yes you can. Can you have a char that believes hes a kank?? talk to Master Z! Can you breed a half giant and a mek and get something bigger than a Mul??? well.... better talk to Ness about that one.

The point is the game is limited to what you want to do. If you only want to spend the time killing stuff.... but if you want to make a friend who trusts you, just so that you can stab them in the back... do it! Its great fun, Become an advisor and wage war against another house, murder thier agents and bring your house higher in prestige. Or.... kill stuff, its your choice  

[Carnage]

I think people are becoming less imaginative with their characters. Punishments of death and hefty fines (again with the sids) seem to be more common than anything else, when whippings and simply being disgraced publicly have come to an end.

Damn straight. I had a character in Allanak who was killed because he made an inappropriate comment. Rather than be spoken to, be whipped, or be taken before the person and have the shit beaten out of them, he was killed in quiet, hush-hush secrecy by a noble. I felt pretty screwed.

More and more f-me players seem to be around... I say if they look that great, it's probably due to magick.

You mean giant breasts, slender legs, and a curvaceous form aren't common? Heh, this point does have merit. These types of characters have always been around, however.

This is where Bob's point comes into play... if Arm continues this trend of not following our own written culture, of rewarding stereotypical characters, of only paying attention to pc characters... how are we to distinguish ourselves from other hack and slash games?

I don't quite understand your interpretation of 'stereotypical' characters. Could you clarify this?

[Dracul]

I'm very pro mutilation...if they ever let me play a templar...I think I'll tone down on pking (I'm not a big pker at all, done it a couple times but eh)

and go more with the

emote violent action
wish all Hi, can we have a limb removed here?

[Delirium]

Mutliation and torture are cool in my books. Just make sure you OOC for consent to RP it out. Some people are squeamish or uncomfy with those scenes. (And there's nothing wrong with that.)

I've actually found I hesitate to kill a PC when they actually do deserve it. Some of us need to be MORE harsh, I suppose.

[crymerci]

I agree with imho's first two points, but I don't think imm intervention is necessarily the best way to correct things.  In some cases, especially when a person or group of people in a House is acting unrealistically, then it would be cool if their House imm would give them a gentle nudge, but overall I think it's up to us players to lead by example.  Discussing things on the GDB is also helpful I think, to show a different point of view to people who might not have thought of it.

I agree that people get pk'd too often.  I remember being in a House where the officer would kill recruits he didn't like, with the noble's knowledge and blessing.  I'm sure they both had some convoluted reasoning to explain the situation, but people can come up with IC justifications for anything, I've found.  Nobles have a hard job, but some of them make it even harder by their own actions. Too many nobles take on more than they're due, and confuse themselves with templars.  Templars have a hard job too, and I give kudos to any who think up more imaginative punishments than fines and getting thrown to beasts in the arena.

Back to the original poster's point: Bob, why don't you try making a character who doesn't kill anyone or anything but just sits around in a tavern drinking ale and getting to know people.  Don't buy weapons and armor, just stay half-drunk all the time on ale, whiskey, or wine.  See what happens.

[Malifaxis]

Well, imho, imho I would agree more with you if you had perhaps put some thought in to this statement:

. A final example might be an almost lack between the “common” commoner. Why have whole institutions set up (hope I’m not being too IC here) to teach people how to work for the higher society… if every character is expected to or already plays like, they know and understand the system already?

Why not?  It if is A: IC for the character setting it up to do so, and B: An appreciated thing by the nobility... then what's wrong with it?

Yes, Nobles *should* expect commoners to act like raging gortok in heat at times.  Yes, they *shouldn't* be surprised when PCX gets in to a barfight because someone kicked his/her stool.

The simple fact is that there are nobles out there who see certain very valued commoners as being essential... lets say, for rough example, a rough and tumble House Sargeant who has proven himself time and time again to be a valiant, heroic figure who inspires his troops with great acts and morale boosting speeches... this commoner starts gaining some notoriety for being a Class A leader, and starts gaining the attention of some of the other nobility around town.  The problem is, this Sargeant started in, say... the 'rinth, or Red Storm... or came from a nomadic family.  So even though he can give awesome speeches... he talks with a lisp, or uses slang constantly, and is possibly not quite aware that picking his nose while talking to a noble is a bad thing.

Is the noble that sees this Sargeant as having shining potential going to personally train them in ettiquette?  Hell no.  Is that same noble going to want to ensure that that Sargeant does not embarrass the hell out of the entire House if talking to a noble from another House?  Yes, most definitely.

So what's this noble to do?  Easy... he/she is going to look around for a commoner with good manners, and a knack for teaching, to help Sargeant Gruntbuggler to learn how to talk like a civilized person, not pick his nose, and all those other little things.  A commoner with proper mannerings is *INVALUABLE* to a noble house!

I do agree that there are way too many statuesque folks wandering around... too many Pamela Andersons with warhammers, and too many Richard Gere's on kankback.  The same can be said for people who start with good manners... unless they have a select grouping of class/subclass, they should be generally unaware of the intricacies of dealing with nobility.
They would still know the basics... bow when spoken to or noticed, stuff like that... but they'd have no clue about how to treat a noble if directly spoken to, or, Krath forbid, invited to sit at the table.

The truth of it all is that a lot of people read a lot of the docs... but very few read ALL of them.  To do so, before generating a first character, would take many many moons RL... a span of time most people are unwilling to dedicate before enterring the game.  Most players, as I have seen it, read what they need to read, start up, and then brush up as they go along or as they are bored on Saturdays.  That's just the way it is.

I don't know if 'imm intervention' is really the right word to use... personally, I never want to see someone suddenly blink out of existance for an immortal coaching session on bad ettiquette.  It would take a lot of time out of the immortal's already busy schedule to police the actions of every single commoner.  IF there were an immo who's set duty was to help people in that way, that would be very nice... a comment added to the account in something of the vein of:  "Hey, you're playing a 2 day ranger/merc who just for the first time came in to the city... your character would be very rough mannered, and would not have pulled out the chair for Lord Hottyfart.  Go ahead and be rough, don't be scared of the reaction... roleplay is what it is all about." would go *very* far (as I see it) in helping this situation.  But the fact is, there's no immo who is set up to do that sort of thing.

Players, for the most part, depend on other players for guidance.  Players who are well heeled guide the newest of step.  Perhaps a person who is 'helper' statused on the GDB would be willing to lean over and whisper OOCLY: "Hey, my AIM/YAHOO/MSN is blah/blah/blah... could you please contact me?  I would like to give you a few tips if you'd want to listen."

Then again, that is a scene break right there.  But other than setting up a test before each chargen to determine if the player has a PhD in Zalanthology, I really see no way that this kind of problem can be corrected on a global scale.

I'd love to hear suggestions, if anyone has them... this is indeed a problem with an upwardly growing trend that needs to be halted before Armag becomes a french models competition.

[Bestatte]

I think there is something missing about arm, all you do is try live kill anyone for anything no culture (except for maby tribes) yeah I know its a dying world but killing people for stuff 24 7 is kinda boring, maby im missing something here but I dunno its kinda dull.

I might be wrong on this, but it sounds to me like maybe you didn't take the suggestions in the website when it came to creating your first character. It sounds like you created a desert-dwelling character of some sort, rather than a normal human living in one of the two primary cities in the known world.

If you did, then yeah, you'll probably find yourself frustrated and bored and dead.  If you're "killing people for stuff" then you're completely missing the entire point of the game. Although PK is allowed and in some cases expected, this isn't a PK game.

In either case, you should take a look at the website, particularly the newbie guides and the "coming from other games" guides and some of the links to sub-pages about the different skills and "guilds" (in other games they might be called skillsets or professions but that's VERY misleading).

[Summer]

Personally what I find a little strange is the way nobles/templars react. There are many commoners walking the streets, many people in the inns and taverns but they always seem to notice the PCs and force them to bow to them. As I have read a few time before, not everyone in the whole tavern bows every time a noble/templar walks in the room, however if you are sitting quietly at the bar or something, if you dont stand and bow you are singled out amongst all the other people in the tavern for not bowing. Seems strange to pick me out of everyone in the place.

[That Templar]

Personally what I find a little strange is the way nobles/templars react. There are many commoners walking the streets, many people in the inns and taverns but they always seem to notice the PCs and force them to bow to them. As I have read a few time before, not everyone in the whole tavern bows every time a noble/templar walks in the room, however if you are sitting quietly at the bar or something, if you dont stand and bow you are singled out amongst all the other people in the tavern for not bowing. Seems strange to pick me out of everyone in the place.

Perhaps southern templars do so if they feel like picking on someone for a specific reason (usually another reason besides bowing) but this sentiment coming from someone suprises me.

I hate it when people jump up and do the wave-bow effect just because I step into a tavern, for the exact reason you're saying templars shouldn't pick on PCs. Come on, you (meaning any PC, not the above poster) are not that important that I am paying attention to whether or not you jump up and bow when I step into a crowded, commoner-infested tavern. I do not care if you bow to me or not. The only time I expect a display of respect is when I have addressed you or shown you direct attention in some manner.

And from what I have observed, every other PC templar feels the same way. Us templars are not obsessed with making the lowly commoners grovel unless we have a very specific reason. It just makes it annoying to have to keep kicking you out of our way.  :twisted:

[Summer]

Thats good! And I do have to say that it mostly seems to be the nobles. Also when someone is sitting at the bar, I assume it isn't facing the rest of the bar, so if you look at them, it is unlikely that they will see you unless they have turned around.

I generally have been ignoring Nobles/Templars unless they pay attention to me. However it seems like they always pay attention to me, and seem a bit miffed if I haven't bowed to them.

[Bestatte]

I'll address Summer's concern about the whole addressing/bowing thing.

If a noble is getting miffed because you're at the bar, facing the wall behind the bartended, and didn't noticed through that eye in the back of your head that he came in (unannounced), then.. I'd suggest the noble has a pretty significant inferiority complex and sucks to be him. He already IS more important than you are. He doesn't -need- you to prove it to him.

Now of course, if he's been announced, loudly, then sure that's a hint that you should turn and give notice to the noble. Or templar.

On the other hand, if he's already sitting there, let's say at "a table in the back of the room"...

And you walk in from the road.. well shit, it's crowded, and you aren't there looking for him, then there's no reason for you to draw attention to yourself or to the Noble. The noble -shouldn't- feel slighted or insulted, because he should realize that he's sitting down, in the back of a big crowded tavern, and the person walking in would have to be a magicker to see through the crowd all the way to the back and aim a bow or curtsy at the noble without catching a confused half-giant in the process.

[Cuusardo]

From what I've been lead to understand, when a noble or templar walks into a bar, there is generally some sort of commotion.  People scrambling to move aside to give them room, showing the proper respect by bowing (or grovelling, as the case may be), perhaps someone loudly announcing the presence of Lord Fancypants or Lady Prissypuss, and other people around you saying something like "Hey, it's Lord Templar Stick-It-To-Ya!" and practically knocking their stools or chairs over to bow.  You've got to be pretty wasted to not notice that kind of stuff.

[Rindan]

From what I've been lead to understand, when a noble or templar walks into a bar, there is generally some sort of commotion.  People scrambling to move aside to give them room, showing the proper respect by bowing (or grovelling, as the case may be), perhaps someone loudly announcing the presence of Lord Fancypants or Lady Prissypuss, and other people around you saying something like "Hey, it's Lord Templar Stick-It-To-Ya!" and practically knocking their stools or chairs over to bow.  You've got to be pretty wasted to not notice that kind of stuff.

If it was a red robed or (tek forbid) a blackrobed templar, I would agree.  People would be scrambling to bow for a red robed, and people would be throwing themselves on the ground face first if it was a black robed.  However, when it comes to blue robes, they are as common as dirt.  They are on every single street corner and go in and out of the taverns virtually as well as non-virtually.  If you scramble to bow every time you see one, you are going to have a very sore back.  I think a tavern would look rather silly if every five minutes everyone scrambles for their feet.  So, would a red or black robed be noticed?  Sure.  A black robed templar in particular would be an excellent time to practice your groveling face down skills.  A common blue though?  They are not worth standing for unless they are paying attention to you for some reason.

[Carnage]

I agree with Rindan here. Blue robes are nothing to really care about. If one approaches you, or you approach one, it's common practice to bow. Otherwise it gets ridiculous that every single patron in a bar like the Gaj or the Barrel would get up, bow to Lord Templar Whatsitdoo, and then sit down and resume action like nothing happened. In fact, I would think the people who got up and bowed would stick out more than those who didn't.

I'd presume that the same thing applies to the ranks of nobility. That senior noble of Borsail is some hot shit. If they would happen to approach you, you'd know it was important. On the other hand, these junior nobles are the equivalent of blue robes: all over the place and with authority, but not that much. That's not to say you shouldn't treat junior nobles and blue-robes with respect but more that you shouldn't beg and grovel and what have you.

Just the other day a noble showed up and decided to harrass my Pc for no reason other than to just be an asshole. He noticed me because I was a PC basically. If nobles want to be twinks and try to harrass ever single commoner PC they meet I am going to make every single character want desperately to kill nobles givin a chance. Seems fair to me. Actually no thats grouping all nobles into one group but  some nobles are good about being ignored and some are just such idiots and want every single person to bow. I guess a solution is to start plotting the nobles death if he keeps up being such a HUGE ass. Eventually he is going to piss off so many commoners one might stick a knife in his back. Besides, killing off all the nobles sounds like good fun. If their heads start rolling maybe they will hire more PC guards, Probably not, since they love the absolute loyalty and superior fighting skills of their NPC's. Ah well I think its a noble quest. All ye newbies harken to my call, start plotting the deaths of nobles, it'll be great .

[Impska]

I've noticed that most nobles who are stuck on the whole "prove that I'm more important than you by grovelling before me" bit, mostly seem to be newer nobles. They've mostly just gotten their characters and are still trying to settle into their personality and are trying desperately not to be a bad noble. After a week or two of rp'ing with other nobles and getting the swing of things, most of them seem to settle down a bit.

If it is part of their character's concept to always need people to affirm for them that they are important (as Bestette mentioned), then they ought to have someone announce them loudly. It's obvious in this case that they expect to be noticed and acknowledged.

If you're in a situation where you've been picked out in a crowd for not bowing (and no announcement has been given), and you had decided that your character simply didn't notice that person, then impress upon them the inappropriateness of their ic actions by shooting off an emote that emphasizes it:

emote Setting his drink down, @ coughs and sputters in surprise at being addressed, apparantly having been unaware of %noble entrance while sitting at the bar, facing away from the rest of the room.

emote turns about and scrambles off his barstool and nearly falls over himself bowing to ~noble.

Eventually, they'll get it.


EDIT: I edited this post for brevity after realizing how off-topic from the original post the thread had gotten.

[Rindan]

I wouldn't worry too much about nobles who try and assert their position to be higher then it is.  There is a vast difference between a noble who has the rank to screw around people for fun, and a junior noble member with no real status other then being a noble.  The lowest of the low nobles usually just end living shorter lives when they try and overstep how much they can poke and prod the masses.  Most of the time they can get away with it, but eventually one of those days they are going to poke the wrong guy and make an enemy they don't have the resources to fight.  It might be a 'rinth elf handy with his dagger and poison who decides to make sort work of the noble.  It could be a hidden magiker or sorcerer who feels like extracting some magiker revenge.  It could just be some half-breed mercenary who is a terror with his weapon, is drunk and having a bad day that easily slits the nobles throat open before the body guards can react.  It could just be some little shit commoner who has the ear of someone bigger who starts seeding nasty rumors or framing the noble.  It might be some piss low commoner who five years later is excessively rich and can afford to hire someone to dispense retribution.

Whatever the case, I wouldn't let it trouble you too terribly much.  A body guard or two is not an imperturbable shield.  Low ranking nobles can only call on templars so many times before the templars start to become annoyed.  Burning resources they don't have and making enemies they don't need is a quick way to one's demise.  That is not to say that a noble with a large head might not try and overstep their bounds ICly, it is just that they are likely to get smacked down ICly in response at some point or another.  It is like walking from Luir's to Tuluk along the road on foot.  You can make the trip safely a dozens of times safely, but if you keep doing it, one of those days something or someone is going to get you.

In defense of any commoner picking on low ranking nobles, realize two things.  First, NPCs are boring to pick on.  If a player decides his noble is in a pissy mood and wants to see a commoner dance, I would much rather that noble pick on a PC then a VNPC or NPC, especially if it is not common behavior for the noble. The game is about interaction, and PCs are going to be the focus.  Second, not everything is random.  I can think of more then one instance where I though that attention one character or another character I had was getting was random, when in truth it turned out to have a very specific reason.  

So, don't sweat it terribly.  The game is fairly self regulating, and when it fails to regulate itself, the imms usually do a good job doing the regulating.

[spawnloser]

I understand what you're saying, Summer (as well as others), but if someone does so much as to pay attention to the noble and by doing so gets the noble's attention, there is no excuse for the person to NOT bow.

I wouldn't exactly emote as Impska suggested, if your character was unaware...it's happened.  Just roll with it and make an emote or tell the noble something like...

> tell stickupbutt (eyes widening as he turns around and looks at !stickupbutt with a start) Oh?  What?  Um...I...I...oh dear.  I'm sorry, Lord!
> tell stickupbutt (glancing over his shoulder to the stage and gesturing vaguely to the bouncing breasts of the dancer on it before dipping into a low bow) I was...a little distracted.

As to the matter of PCs getting picked on versus NPCs...NPCs don't have anyone at the keyboard, so most nobles will assume that the appropriate actions happen as appropriately, I would think.  They can't go around killing all the other nobles' guards just because the silly NPCs didn't bow.  As far as VNPCs, it's another of a similar bent:  the VNPC population is, in general, assumed to be the rank and file.  In general, people get out of a noble's way and bow before scurrying on their way.  I think you just haven't been around for the times that nobles pick on the VNPC population, because I know it has happened.

One other thing I think has been misseds that (as mentioned in other threads) there is a difference between solo-RP and RPing with someone else...the game doesn't enforce solo-RP, saying that people have to do it...which is what picking on a VNPC would be.  Picking on a PC, while annoying in some ways, if nothing else, can give you something to do.

Now, I'm not saying that a noble walks into the bar and everyone should bow to him/her...but if you pay attention to the noble, you'd better, because someone paying attention to a noble will get that noble's attention on the person, realistically.  Seriously, if there is interaction with a noble, bowing better be part of it...even if it's just a bowed head from across the bar when you take notice for whatever reason.