more than just this??

[Paladin of Dyrinis]

As a player of a templar I would never chose an NPC over a PC to harass, just as I wouldn't incriminate and torture a LD PC.  This assumes that I have a reason to harass a commoner in the first place, of course.  The fact of the matter is, its a templar's job to interact with other PCs.  Part of this is giving them employment, and special tasks.  And considering the nature of a templar, it isn't unreasonable for this interaction to include making the life of a commoner miserable.  You aren't discounting the virtual world by interacting with PCs over NPCs.  If you steal from a footlocker or kill a fellow clan member in your clan barracks, disregarding the VNPCs there, then -that- is disregarding the virtual world.  But singling out a PC over an NPC is just the normal, expected course of the game.  It would be like getting angry because a PC pickpocket stole from you instead of RPing a theft from a VNPC in a tavern.

That being said, I don't think that picking on a PC in a crowded tavern for the sole purpose of not bowing is very appropriate.  Even if a templar would bother to notice something so trivial, its not likely that they expect everybody to rise and bow upon their entrance.

[Imoho]

Carnage wrote

I don't quite understand your interpretation of 'stereotypical' characters. Could you clarify this?

By stereotypical I mean the f-me bots, the Clint Eastwoods, the loners, etc.; the characters that are a dime a dozen and that are represented by NPCs and VNPCs.  I just think instead of rewarding these characters...that we should help the player to understand these types don't actually exist in the world.  

Malifaxis wrote

don't know if 'imm intervention' is really the right word to use... personally, I never want to see someone suddenly blink out of existance for an immortal coaching session on bad ettiquette. It would take a lot of time out of the immortal's already busy schedule to police the actions of every single commoner. IF there were an immo who's set duty was to help people in that way, that would be very nice... a comment added to the account in something of the vein of: "Hey, you're playing a 2 day ranger/merc who just for the first time came in to the city... your character would be very rough mannered, and would not have pulled out the chair for Lord Hottyfart. Go ahead and be rough, don't be scared of the reaction... roleplay is what it is all about." would go *very* far (as I see it) in helping this situation. But the fact is, there's no immo who is set up to do that sort of thing.

This goes back to the balance idea.  As stated by a few of the posts discussing "bowing" too many nobles and templars seem to overvalue themselves.  Even house servants and some wealthy commoners, at times, appear to go unchecked... building more and more power.  Imms have the ability to, when it becomes blatantly apparent ( Makes it to rumor boards or is talked about by over half the PCs involved or if a noble is allowing for too much "help" from any type of commoner or outside family member) that someone has overstepped their authority in game... the Imms (I assume they are the ones with the Red robes and Senior status) need to either email the player and say tone it down... or log in and keep these junior nobles, merchants, advisors, or templars in their rightful place.  

He or she also wrote

Well, imho, imho I would agree more with you if you had perhaps put some thought in to this statement:
-AND- I'd love to hear suggestions, if anyone has them...

:arrow:  Here is my suggestion, you should grow up when discussing things on the gdb.  A comment like the one you started your post for is childish because you think that anyone who you disagree with needs to "put more thought into it"  :?:  :?:  :!:

               

One other thought... many have been talking about nobles and templars picking out PCs who do not bow.  This can actually cramp the game as well.  Sometimes a character actually chooses to disrespect or lightly respect a templar or noble.  Fact is if nobles/templars –always- pick up on things like that, 1.  No player will continue to do that and 2. Others who may be close enough to observe such behavior will never have a chance to react to it.

[Mean cranky better than U]

Disagree. I love being afraid of Templars. I love how you can get a little rush when one walks in the room and looks at you, and you feel guilty even if you didn't do anything. That's what templars are for. When I play one I go out and look for someone to screw with. That's my ooc job. Are you saying you want to be left alone? Too much interaction? Mad because the nobles and templars aren't taking your drink orders and bringing presents?

I never screw with anyone for not bowing if it is possible they didn't see me, but once I address you, and I'm looking at you? Not bowing is a big "Please ream my ass hard. Thank you" flashing neon sign on your forehead.

If you just want to be left alone, why not bow. Or better yet, log off and masturbate.

[aeshyw]

I've been reading this thread and the more I read the more I seem to see a single theme coming through - people are applying their twenty-first century, Western ideas to the two city-states and looking at the entire noble/commoner direction through modern-tinted sunglasses.

I personally think that the cause of this trend is two-pronged and caused by 1) Nobles who act like Commoners and 2)The players of some Commoners not stopping to think of what their attitude toward the nobility might be and why.

Just take a look at the existence of the two classes and the differences between them:

As a Commoner, unless you are of the Merchant 'middle' class, you have likely been raised in relative poverty, struggling just to survive.  There aren't enough jobs to go around, food (except in the North) is relatively scarce and life expectancy is low, at best.

A Noble has been raised in a magnificent estate.   The very ring on their finger is worth more then most Commoners will see in a lifetime.  Since infancy, Commoners and Slaves have been literally tripping over themselves to provide for the Noble's every whim. (Of course, this also varies with the wealth of the house involved, with the lower tiers likely not enjoying nearly the same level of comfort as a Noble of the Upper Tier).

Now, add to this reality a few small points:

If you are a Commoner, you have likely been told your entire life to obey the Templarate and that the Nobility is quite simply, better then you are.  You very likely believe it to be true, as well.  You have likely had -very- little direct contact with a 'real' member of the nobility and you will also likely have heard wild tales of both the generosity and cruelty of various charismatic nobles your whole life, much as you might hear tales about sports stars in today's society.

If you are a Noble, a Commoner is a tool, fodder or perhaps in some very -rare- occasions, a valued servant whose opinions might at times be taken with a grain of salt and mostly regarded as the misguided opinions of someone without the benefit of breeding or education.

When it comes to interactions between the two, I do not think that those differences would -ever- be ignored.    There are certain protocols that would always be followed, but whether or not your character would follow them as a Commoner will greatly depend on their education and background.  Pretty much every one knows to bow when they hear a noble being announced.  People who have a fear of a slow, torturous death might bow to every templar they notice - PC and NPC.  Employees of Noble Houses will likely be paying MUCH greater attention to such matters and showing as much courtesy as possible so as not to give their employer's rivals a reason to laugh at them for their ill-mannered servants.

I -personally- think that there haven't been many nobles walking around forcing people to bow to them in quite some time.  I've been watching and just haven't seen it.  What I have seen is some nobles having their NPC guards announce their presence, and PCs reacting to that with bows. I've also seen a few nobles that on occasion take the time to interact with Commoner PCs they see around them, and of -COURSE- treat those Commoners in a condescending manner.  The CityStates are not places where everyone was raised with Sesame Street and everyone tries to treat everyone else with respect - and if they were, the game would be very boring.

My suggestions to those who have felt singled-out by a noble or templar are this - are they threatening your life for something they really shouldn't have noticed? Or are they trying to provide a bit of interaction with someone that you normally wouldn't have gotten to ever get that close to otherwise?  An even more likely scenario is that the noble in question is sizing up your ability to serve their house or themselves in some fashion.  I truly think that some people are confusing roleplay with harassment.  


Nobles are walking personifications of the 'sid that makes the world go round.  I would suggest that instead of thinking of Armageddon as 'us versus them', it be viewed as a virtual world where even the lowest of nobles has a certain celebrity.  I'd imagine everyone has at some point in their life dealt with even minor celebrity or seen the commotion that accompanies one.  I personally can recall an incident back in high school that I was reminded of in reading this thread.    

I went to a boarding school and one of the other students there was the son of a minor television star (one who has been on trial for murder of late).  There were others with more famous parents, but this particular one was on campus visiting.  A group of other girls and I dragged ourselves down to the cafeteria for breakfast in our sweats as we always did, hair disheveled, half-awake..and who should sit down with us but Noah and his dad.   One by one..with the utmost casualness, every single girl at that table found an excuse to go brush her teeth and hair and show up back at the table again, all sophisticated boredom and casual disdain.  When the dad ran out of coffee, again, this same group of 'Icouldcareless' girls somehow found a reason to keep his cup filled without him even asking.  At the time, I remember feeling just a little awed at the people he probably knew and hoping he'd talk about it; but of course, he just wanted to hear about the school.

PCs get to play nobles so that they can provide that 'extra' level of specialness to the game.  It's not a way for them to enjoy abusing power, it's a way for them to USE power to make the game dangerous, interesting and full of conflict and plotting.  In any case, I've rambled on enough.  I would personally like to see more people pay greater attention to the gulf between the nobility and commoner people, and more social climbing within common society, as well.

Just my longwinded two 'sids...

[My 2 sids]

I love how you can get a little rush when one walks in the room and looks at you, and you feel guilty even if you didn't do anything. That's what templars are for. When I play one I go out and look for someone to screw with.

I'll just say this and that will be all.  One's first character usually makes or breaks the game for them.  For me I stayed with and enjoyed the game for a few reasions...

A.  No one killed off my character.  Yes, my character goofed up... partly because of who my character was and mostly because I was new to the game.  Instead of simply doing away with my character (which would have been ICly ok)  templars, nobles, and almost all other characters I enteracted with, found IC punishments and learning opprotunites that were not death.  In this way I, the player, as well as my character was able to learn and grow from them.  

B.  OOC and Imm help.  These people answered my questions (both ICly and OOCly when approprate) without some of the condecending and harsh answers I have noticed a few people giving OOCly.  

C.  My first character, although never really envolved, had opprotunities to watch the political and social plots.  I think sometimes newbies create/play/stick with their guilds are they don't know what other type of jobs are avalible.  Warriors, hunters, idependent thieves are all fairly self-explanitory.  I for one never even thought of an "aide" or "spy" character because they were not listed in the guilds.

[Malifaxis]

Heh.  I do so love maturity.

In respect to the wise, albeit longwinded, post of Aeshyw:

I also have seen this sort of thing happen IRL.  In my regard it was when I was working as a bouncer at a certain twin cities industrial dance club.  Filled with goths, darksiders, suicide rockers, junkies, pimps'n'hos.

One day, working the door, this rather short dude comes in, dark of skin, flanked by two huge mothas.  Short dude: wearing a lot of purple, shades, immaculately trimmed, with this amazingly radiant smile.  Royalty obviously... unfortunately, at the time his name did not respect this, as it was a symbol.  He was formerly, however, known as Prince.

Dude strides in like he owns the place, starts flashing that smile around, sidles right up to the bar under the thumping, massive music.  I saw the hordes of black dressed, make-up wearing folks that idolize death and don't give a shit about anyone outside of their own self-loathing paradigm part like a certain well known body of water in the greatest work of fiction ever.  Everyone I could see dropped totally *silent*.  Conversations stopped.  People turned and stared.  A few of the darksiders even nodded respectfully.  Why?  Not because he was flanked by Mr. Legbreaker and Mr. Hearttaker.  It was because of the way he carried himself, the way he looked, the way he acted.  Every, and I do mean *every* move he made radiated a supreme confidence... just like a noble on Arm would.

On mean cranky better than you:

I can't expound on this.  Perfectly phrased as I see it.  Awesome.  The templars are there to scare the bejeezus out of PCs... it says so in the docs.  Unfortunately, too few templars take this side of the role seriously as I see it.  Up the tension, *PLEASE*

And on to the statement of he/she who calls me childish while hiding behind a mask of anonymity the way a larval human stands behind a father's leg:

Perhaps it was childish in some respects.  The real point of the statement was to provoke a reaction from you in an attempt to have you justify some of your statements.  Thank you.  And no, I don't think that every person that disagrees with me needs to put more thought in to what they are saying.  I love debate, the livelier the better.  You make many presumptions, which is odd for someone who posts with as much eloquence
and well phrased statements as you use.

By stereotypical I mean the f-me bots, the Clint Eastwoods, the loners, etc.; the characters that are a dime a dozen and that are represented by NPCs and VNPCs. I just think instead of rewarding these characters…that we should help the player to understand these types don’t actually exist in the world.

They don't?  Why do we have a ranger class at all then, if not specifically for these types of people?  These people do exist, both in the real world and in the virtual world we enjoy.  It takes all types to make both worlds go around.

Even house servants and some wealthy commoners, at times, appear to go unchecked… building more and more power.

A very intelligent character, backed by a very intelligent PC should, in my opinion, not be restricted by the immos.  If this PC started on the streets,
worked up through the ranks to a position of relative power as far as commoners go, and established a wide power-base of both abilities and social influences... then what's the problem?  If the immos stepped in and squashed these kinds of PCs, then there would be no room for people to stand as "The power behind the throne" per se'.  If the nobility or templarate see that commoner as becomming too dangerous... they tend to hire PC assassins, or even gangs of them, to go after the person.  If the person lives, or even thrives, through the attempt... more power to them!
When a commoner steps up to that position of relative power, they give a *lot* of other PCs things to do... running errands, spying, artifact hunting,
all sorts of things.  PCs with power, be it 'rinther, commoner, or noble born, make the world go 'round.  They give the 'peons' things to do... everything from getting them a sammich to sneaking in to a distant magicker encampment to find out the secret location of the lost Ring of Eternal Eliteness.  A commoner PC that abuses the relative power they have are quickly extinguished... the ones that use it wisely, and with subtlety, are the ones that truely stick around.  Why?  There's no visible reason for anyone to extinguish them.

Don't take this as an insult, it's not meant to be one, merely a suggestion:
Maybe your problem with PCs that have power stems from an almost sub-concious envy of having a PC that could make a climb as long and as far as the people you vilify?  If so... perhaps you should try it.  I'm willing to
bet that you would realize how much these people drive the world of Zalanthas forward.

[Anonymous]

First to a certain templar in the south who walks in, emotes looking around and pauses for a few moments before walking out...

thanks!

That's the kind of tension I like. The kind where you sit there, hoping to be inconspiciuous by NOT getting up and bowing..hoping to be considered as a PC templar would normally consider an NPC - which is to say, not at all. And not knowing if it worked until the templar leaves. That heart-thumping "OMG what the fuck am I gonna do if he's actually looking for ME?" moment that is so subtle, that it just really sucks you into the game.

Now to the rest.

There's a lot of talk on this thread about commoners vs. nobles and templars. But there's a whole segment of the world that's being completely forgotten here. Those are the people who don't come from or live in Tuluk or Allanak, but have reason to go there sometimes.

Not enough to pick up on the nuances of manners or ettiquette, and not enough to care about them either. The ones who are just visiting for whatever reason, don't really give a shit what people think about them because they're not planning on staying anyway, and don't give a rat's ass that Lord Noble likes his tea lukewarm with a splash of lemon. Why should they care? Sure, they've heard that nobles are superior. That's something people who have interacted with city folks would know.

But the thing is, it doesn't matter to them. Yes, you are superior, Lord Noble. No, I don't give a shit. Your superiority has no affect on my daily life, I'm not a citizen of your city, and I'm not hoping to be hired by you or sit at your table surrounded by your fancy commoner silk-wearing servants. I'm not going to go out of my way to intentionally piss you off, but I'm also not interested in taking lessons on how to squeeze the lemon into your tea. Thanks anyway, but go bother someone who has lived in your culture long enough to appreciate the difference.

Just remember, there ARE people who haven't been taught to appreciate the difference. They might know what the difference is, but it doesn't matter to them one way or another. It doesn't mean the character's player is a twink who didn't read the help files. It just means that the character really HAS just crawled out from under a rock in some remote area of the world and sees everyone in "society" as being very strange.

[Carnage]

Why do we have a ranger class at all then, if not specifically for these types of people?

Because the ranger class is a set of skills useful to anyone who wants to have more versatility than a warrior but lose it in combat ability. This kind of character could be anything from a kank-tamer, a medic, an apothecary, the leader of a caravan, whatever. It wasn't made "specifically" for "the Clint Eastwoods, the loners, etc", as you said.

[Noble Cubed]

To get it in mind as to what nobles are in the game let's take a look at the documentation and see what it means.

Since there are two distinct societies in the game, we'll look at Allanak and Tuluk seperately.

First, from the 'noble' help file:

Born into wealth and power, most nobles expect to be
treated with respect by those of inferior or common blood.

Allanak's nobility:

The social structures in Allanak have existed for, literally, centuries, with little or no change. 99% of individuals raised within this system will have it so deeply engrained that to question it would be tantamont to being an elf that rides a kank, or a dwarf without a focus.

While a noble can expect to have his or her wishes obeyed by a commoner, they do not have the power to enslave people.

The nobility is the ruling class of Allanak.

Nobles are exempt from all laws of Allanak, with the exception of rioting or massing forces against the city-state. Thus, if a noble wishes to bear arms, or proceed to kill a commoner, then that is their perogative, as long as it is not against a member of the militia.

This attitude is reinforced by their benefits: literacy, which acquires near-mystical dimensions in an illiterate society; vast wealth; social status; and freedom from most of the laws of the city.

Socializing with commoners is an odd thing for a noble, much like talking to a household object or their kank.

What I find important about these points is this - In Allanak nobles are the rulers.  Everyone would know this and everyone would also know that a capricious noble can simply kill a commoner outright.  Even Americans know that people bow to the aristrocacy of other nations (although, Americans themselves need not, but those of the nation that is ruled should).  

Now, if this is the case for a land with no king or queen, imagine how ingrained it is for a commoner of a nation who's ruling class is front and centre - and where it is often more feared than revered.  Once again, everyone in Allanak knows what to do.  Everyone who deals in Allanak would know what to do as well - even those who couldn't care about the ruling class - they'd still know that they could be killed on a whim if desired.  Not that many nobles do this - but rumors and stories, especially the bad ones, would always surround the nobility of Allanak - even the players constantly circulate these rumors imagine how the common folk would.

One thing to note - a noble is a noble is a noble to the vast majority of commoners.  They would not know the difference between a Sath noble and a Borsail noble.  All nobles have the capability of ending their life or making their life miserable (more so than it is).  One does not give offense to that and one obeys a noble's every whim hoping not to give offense.  There are certainly some exceptions to this - but expect consequences.

Tuluk is slightly different although most of it is the same (since they share the same historical documentation)

Nobles do not have relationships with commoners. It is unthinkable, and a monstrous violation of social protocols. Children of such alliances often become outcasts and vagabonds and their noble parent is severely reprimanded.

(In Allanak, bastards of such trysts are often cared for by the House and rise to high levels within the House structure - not as nobles but servants, guards, whatever)

Such relationships are considered a social fax paus. The caste system in Tuluk has been in place for years and is a fundamental part of Tuluki society and culture. Such relationships are liabilities for the House. If word were to get out, it would damage not only the noble's reputation, which is bad in itself, but it would also damage the House's reputation.

Nobles are still raised with a strict outlook, born to wealth and accustomed to prodigiously languid lifestyle. The nobility of Tuluk remains freely accessible to the commoners, but the division is strictly maintained. Noble relationships are viewed with the same attitude as one would view a work of art.

However, due to the long period of Southern occupation in which the nobles faced obscurity or death, the relationship between the nobility and the common citizen has developed a much more amicable bond. It is not unheard of, nor is it frowned upon, for a noble to be seen in a tavern (though the selection of taverns are usually chosen to avoid the seedier elements) enjoying the company of the many commoners that inhabit such pubs.

Eager to avoid attention from the occupying Naki forces, the cream of Old Tuluk's nobility dressed and lived as - and in fact were aided by - commoners. Over the years, a few families attracted small but loyal followings in secret sympathy. Others forged promises and alliances with the working class families who assisted them.

In a new and distinctly Tuluki practice coming to be known as patronage, the enterprising noble attracts commoners with promises to relay their needs and political concerns to the noble faction for appeal to the Triumvirate.

In all the point is this - nobles are the ruling class and everyone in the game knows it.  You don't mess with the ruling class if you want to survive.  There isn't a single commoner in the game who has more 'power' than a noble - even the lowest level noble could destroy any commoner.  

Some would dispute this saying the highest ranked members of one of the three major Houses have more power - but the fact of the matter is - they don't.  A lowly noble can influence his or her House and then, in turn, influence the laws of the city.  A merchant can spread their sid around - sure - but it won't make the same impact as a noble who is on the prowl.  Nobles are the power figures in the cities - they make the laws and influence the laws.  Nobles can, with the asking of a favor, lock up anyone or even flat out kill someone.  Certain priviledged commoners might have some aspect of protection - but it won't do them any good after they are dead.  There may be consequences to the noble who does something too overtly and destructive but the point is - the commoner is already dead (or mutilated or exiled or whatever).  

No commoner is above any noble - the only exception are the family heads of the major Merchant Houses who are ranked at the same level as the lowest of the lowest noble Houses.  Source:  http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

[Cuusardo]

This thread has turned into something completely different than what it started out as...

Just an observation.   :shock:

[Carnage]

Taken from "So You Want To Be A Noble": "Nobles are, to a certain extent, above the laws of Allanak, due to their standing. This is not, I'll note, license to go out and kill peasants freely, but a noble who gets involved in a fight will probably not get hauled off to jail."

I disagree with the noble's post. Nobles don't have unlimited power. They have finite resources. They aren't invincible and their actions have just as much repurcussions as a normal character's. Go ahead and treat that 'Rinth rat like shit. Kill him. For all you know, he may have Guild contacts. Wanna make fun of the T'zai Byn? Remember that some of their members might join your house after graduation. Also remember that you might need them for a contract somewhere down the line. Think you have unlimited powers to have people killed and want to go prove it by killing someone who works for another house because of a grudge? Super, now that house is going to be annoyed. Almost every character has at least VNPC friends. Think they're going to be happy when a noble slaughters their friend on a whim?

Theoretically, yes, nobles have powers. But in practice, they really don't. To quote the "What You Know" docs for Allanak: "the commoners are usually of the merchant class or soldiers in Tektolnes' army. The rest of the population earn their living in less honest ways." Now that's a big hunk of the population [Edit] that's in the Militia[/Edit]. Kill a merchant, though, and his friends might raise their prices towards your house. There's an entire system of balances that a noble would be completely ignorant not to recognize.

As for the laws, it's the senators of the house who vote on that sort of thing, not the lower members. And as stated in another post, there's hundreds of nobles in a house. Who says that this junior noble is going to effect the decisions of a senator of quite some years? Hell, the senator might not even be aware of the noble's existance. It's bold to say that all nobles can influence their house and their senators into passing laws. Besides that, the law would have to pass through the senate. Keep in mind that this is all under the watch of Tektolnes, who could, at any time, strike it down. Taken again from the 'What You Know' page: "The nobles are the Highlord's puppets, their "careers" spent gathering popular support and serving in a senate whose decisions are dictated by His Gloriousness...They are usually very ignorant about the way Allanak is run (sometimes they are even chosen because of that specific trait.) "

A noble isn't an invincible being with control over every aspect of life. In fact, they generally have very little control. All the political power and 'sid in the world isn't going to do them any good if some bitter Rinth-rat with a grudge against the noble who carelessly sentenced his brother to death comes and assassinates the noble. Get too cocky and arrogant and it'll come right back to bite you in the ass.