more than just this??

[Bob]

I think there is something missing about arm, all you do is try live kill anyone for anything no culture (except for maby tribes) yeah I know its a dying world but killing people for stuff 24 7 is kinda boring, maby im missing something here but I dunno its kinda dull.

[Mekeda]

I'm fairly sure that if all you are trying to do is kill stuff, you are completely missing most of the game. In fact, I don't know of many people who do just try to kill things. Perhaps take some time off from whacking beasts and visit a local tavern and start talking with people to find the deeper, richer side of Armageddon that makes it so addictive.


Mekeda

sadistic spice


Look, the happy kank is smoking spice, why aren't you?

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Yes, there is more than that. Really.

The documentation is misleading, sometimes. It's a desperate world that's hard to survive in, yes, but that doesn't mean you'll be grappling with a scrab all the time. There are merchants, politicians, law enforcers, entertainers... You can do just about anything you can do in the real world in Arm, and then some.

If you don't like the hack and slash hunting side of things, than all I can say is Armageddon is the -perfect- place for you. Try making a merchant, and check out the complex crafting code as you hustle to make a living. Take a job with the militia or a mercenary company to see the deeper side of Armageddon's more combat-oriented characters. Play a poor pickpocket that must steal food to live, or a noble aide to get immersed in rich, political plotlines.

The possibilities are -endless-. If you think that killing animals is the only thing you can do in Armageddon... Then you haven't played enough, simply put. Killing stuff is really a tiny part of the game.

[Galdun]

Play a street smart, thief linguist.  Most fun you'll ever have.

[Imho]

Perhaps Bob has a point though.  I feel too many are dieing in game.  My observations and conversations have lead me to think of three things as the major issues that have a negative impact on the game.  1.  Players, not just the "newbie" are disregarding the files that make up the culture found in game.  2.  People use less imagination with their characters.  3.  Not enough Imm intervention to change numbers one and two.

1.  The culture of the game is laid out the reading docs.  And yet there are constantly players whose characters seem to disregard this.  People, -these- are what forms the society... the culture that we all love.  When too many players start disreguarding them... we loose our culture.  Don't think so?  What about these?  An example would be all the green clothing now for sale.  Green is a feared color people!!  An example would be all the nobles in game who act like the templarate, or the commoners that treat them as such.  Far be it for nobles to be on the same scale as the commoners, but the docs are clear about the differences between nobles and templars as far as commoners go.  A final example might be an almost lack between the "common" commoner.  Why have whole institutions set up (hope I'm not being too IC here) to teach people how to work for the higher society... if every character is expected to or already plays like, they know and understand the system already?  

I think people are becoming less imaginative with their characters.  Punishments of death and hefty fines (again with the sids) seem to be more common than anything else, when whippings and simply being disgraced publicly have come to an end.  This also has a great influence on newbie players who almost always are punished.  Instead of having 10+ day old characters... newbies could learn a lot through punishments which allowed them to continue to live and learn!  More and more f-me players seem to be around... I say if they look that great, it's probably due to magick.  And finally... has anyone else noticed how characters who are not the "stereotypical" characters are quickly disposed?  Yes, the game has set roles for the people... but going back to the discussion of bar fights, sense when do the nobility expect the commoners, even when working for them, to not fight like animals when angered?  Or to keep clean?  Using stereotypical characters again and again takes away from the well-rounded characters.

Imm intervention.  I want to make it known this is not an attack on them, indeed this game continues to have some of the best.  However, it has been my observation that they have let the above issues continue and have let the balance of power fall.  This game is set up where power (political, social, and economic) are fairly well divided.    Theoretically,  the nobles have the political power, the merchant houses have more economic power, and everyone else holds a bit of social power in that they provide the nobles and merchants with their power.  However, look at the game...  Often, I believe because people are forgetting about npcs and vnpcs who are indeed "stronger" than they, the powers have been shifted to one or two groups (or sometimes even people) with in the game.  This shift in balance makes it almost impossible for pc characters to change anything.  Or another example is probably going on in almost every house... The houses almost always take the side of the servant (insert the ol' "Whatever happened to the days when if children where in trouble at school they were in trouble at home?")  This is where the Imms are letting the game down; they need to represent all the other non-pc characters to help keep the powers in check.  

To me "hack and slash" games are boring because everyone is one sided and stereotypical.  This is where Bob's point comes into play... if Arm continues this trend of not following our own written culture, of rewarding stereotypical characters, of only paying attention to pc characters... how are we to distinguish ourselves from other hack and slash games?

[Krath]

I agree with your point one and two.

[Anarchy]

The 'rinth is the greatest place i can think of so far - of course i have only had like, three PCs so im bais,  if your smart, and dont go in there with a desire to kill everything that moved and great armour, its very fun.

I fail to see why everyone fears it...

[Dakkon Black]

I think the true value of arm lays in the political possibilities. Any game you can shoot shit. In this game you can make it trust you before you shoot it  :twisted:  Where else can you marry the woman you want to poison? Have your head removed by a bored Templar? Like was stated killing stuff... sure you can do it here but you can do that in any game out there. The real gold here is the interactivity. What CANT you do? Can you blow up a building and permanently change the world> Hell yes you can. Can you have a char that believes hes a kank?? talk to Master Z! Can you breed a half giant and a mek and get something bigger than a Mul??? well.... better talk to Ness about that one.

The point is the game is limited to what you want to do. If you only want to spend the time killing stuff.... but if you want to make a friend who trusts you, just so that you can stab them in the back... do it! Its great fun, Become an advisor and wage war against another house, murder thier agents and bring your house higher in prestige. Or.... kill stuff, its your choice  

[Carnage]

I think people are becoming less imaginative with their characters. Punishments of death and hefty fines (again with the sids) seem to be more common than anything else, when whippings and simply being disgraced publicly have come to an end.

Damn straight. I had a character in Allanak who was killed because he made an inappropriate comment. Rather than be spoken to, be whipped, or be taken before the person and have the shit beaten out of them, he was killed in quiet, hush-hush secrecy by a noble. I felt pretty screwed.

More and more f-me players seem to be around... I say if they look that great, it's probably due to magick.

You mean giant breasts, slender legs, and a curvaceous form aren't common? Heh, this point does have merit. These types of characters have always been around, however.

This is where Bob's point comes into play... if Arm continues this trend of not following our own written culture, of rewarding stereotypical characters, of only paying attention to pc characters... how are we to distinguish ourselves from other hack and slash games?

I don't quite understand your interpretation of 'stereotypical' characters. Could you clarify this?

[Dracul]

I'm very pro mutilation...if they ever let me play a templar...I think I'll tone down on pking (I'm not a big pker at all, done it a couple times but eh)

and go more with the

emote violent action
wish all Hi, can we have a limb removed here?

[Delirium]

Mutliation and torture are cool in my books. Just make sure you OOC for consent to RP it out. Some people are squeamish or uncomfy with those scenes. (And there's nothing wrong with that.)

I've actually found I hesitate to kill a PC when they actually do deserve it. Some of us need to be MORE harsh, I suppose.

[crymerci]

I agree with imho's first two points, but I don't think imm intervention is necessarily the best way to correct things.  In some cases, especially when a person or group of people in a House is acting unrealistically, then it would be cool if their House imm would give them a gentle nudge, but overall I think it's up to us players to lead by example.  Discussing things on the GDB is also helpful I think, to show a different point of view to people who might not have thought of it.

I agree that people get pk'd too often.  I remember being in a House where the officer would kill recruits he didn't like, with the noble's knowledge and blessing.  I'm sure they both had some convoluted reasoning to explain the situation, but people can come up with IC justifications for anything, I've found.  Nobles have a hard job, but some of them make it even harder by their own actions. Too many nobles take on more than they're due, and confuse themselves with templars.  Templars have a hard job too, and I give kudos to any who think up more imaginative punishments than fines and getting thrown to beasts in the arena.

Back to the original poster's point: Bob, why don't you try making a character who doesn't kill anyone or anything but just sits around in a tavern drinking ale and getting to know people.  Don't buy weapons and armor, just stay half-drunk all the time on ale, whiskey, or wine.  See what happens.

[Malifaxis]

Well, imho, imho I would agree more with you if you had perhaps put some thought in to this statement:

. A final example might be an almost lack between the “common” commoner. Why have whole institutions set up (hope I’m not being too IC here) to teach people how to work for the higher society… if every character is expected to or already plays like, they know and understand the system already?

Why not?  It if is A: IC for the character setting it up to do so, and B: An appreciated thing by the nobility... then what's wrong with it?

Yes, Nobles *should* expect commoners to act like raging gortok in heat at times.  Yes, they *shouldn't* be surprised when PCX gets in to a barfight because someone kicked his/her stool.

The simple fact is that there are nobles out there who see certain very valued commoners as being essential... lets say, for rough example, a rough and tumble House Sargeant who has proven himself time and time again to be a valiant, heroic figure who inspires his troops with great acts and morale boosting speeches... this commoner starts gaining some notoriety for being a Class A leader, and starts gaining the attention of some of the other nobility around town.  The problem is, this Sargeant started in, say... the 'rinth, or Red Storm... or came from a nomadic family.  So even though he can give awesome speeches... he talks with a lisp, or uses slang constantly, and is possibly not quite aware that picking his nose while talking to a noble is a bad thing.

Is the noble that sees this Sargeant as having shining potential going to personally train them in ettiquette?  Hell no.  Is that same noble going to want to ensure that that Sargeant does not embarrass the hell out of the entire House if talking to a noble from another House?  Yes, most definitely.

So what's this noble to do?  Easy... he/she is going to look around for a commoner with good manners, and a knack for teaching, to help Sargeant Gruntbuggler to learn how to talk like a civilized person, not pick his nose, and all those other little things.  A commoner with proper mannerings is *INVALUABLE* to a noble house!

I do agree that there are way too many statuesque folks wandering around... too many Pamela Andersons with warhammers, and too many Richard Gere's on kankback.  The same can be said for people who start with good manners... unless they have a select grouping of class/subclass, they should be generally unaware of the intricacies of dealing with nobility.
They would still know the basics... bow when spoken to or noticed, stuff like that... but they'd have no clue about how to treat a noble if directly spoken to, or, Krath forbid, invited to sit at the table.

The truth of it all is that a lot of people read a lot of the docs... but very few read ALL of them.  To do so, before generating a first character, would take many many moons RL... a span of time most people are unwilling to dedicate before enterring the game.  Most players, as I have seen it, read what they need to read, start up, and then brush up as they go along or as they are bored on Saturdays.  That's just the way it is.

I don't know if 'imm intervention' is really the right word to use... personally, I never want to see someone suddenly blink out of existance for an immortal coaching session on bad ettiquette.  It would take a lot of time out of the immortal's already busy schedule to police the actions of every single commoner.  IF there were an immo who's set duty was to help people in that way, that would be very nice... a comment added to the account in something of the vein of:  "Hey, you're playing a 2 day ranger/merc who just for the first time came in to the city... your character would be very rough mannered, and would not have pulled out the chair for Lord Hottyfart.  Go ahead and be rough, don't be scared of the reaction... roleplay is what it is all about." would go *very* far (as I see it) in helping this situation.  But the fact is, there's no immo who is set up to do that sort of thing.

Players, for the most part, depend on other players for guidance.  Players who are well heeled guide the newest of step.  Perhaps a person who is 'helper' statused on the GDB would be willing to lean over and whisper OOCLY: "Hey, my AIM/YAHOO/MSN is blah/blah/blah... could you please contact me?  I would like to give you a few tips if you'd want to listen."

Then again, that is a scene break right there.  But other than setting up a test before each chargen to determine if the player has a PhD in Zalanthology, I really see no way that this kind of problem can be corrected on a global scale.

I'd love to hear suggestions, if anyone has them... this is indeed a problem with an upwardly growing trend that needs to be halted before Armag becomes a french models competition.

[Bestatte]

I think there is something missing about arm, all you do is try live kill anyone for anything no culture (except for maby tribes) yeah I know its a dying world but killing people for stuff 24 7 is kinda boring, maby im missing something here but I dunno its kinda dull.

I might be wrong on this, but it sounds to me like maybe you didn't take the suggestions in the website when it came to creating your first character. It sounds like you created a desert-dwelling character of some sort, rather than a normal human living in one of the two primary cities in the known world.

If you did, then yeah, you'll probably find yourself frustrated and bored and dead.  If you're "killing people for stuff" then you're completely missing the entire point of the game. Although PK is allowed and in some cases expected, this isn't a PK game.

In either case, you should take a look at the website, particularly the newbie guides and the "coming from other games" guides and some of the links to sub-pages about the different skills and "guilds" (in other games they might be called skillsets or professions but that's VERY misleading).

[Summer]

Personally what I find a little strange is the way nobles/templars react. There are many commoners walking the streets, many people in the inns and taverns but they always seem to notice the PCs and force them to bow to them. As I have read a few time before, not everyone in the whole tavern bows every time a noble/templar walks in the room, however if you are sitting quietly at the bar or something, if you dont stand and bow you are singled out amongst all the other people in the tavern for not bowing. Seems strange to pick me out of everyone in the place.

[That Templar]

Personally what I find a little strange is the way nobles/templars react. There are many commoners walking the streets, many people in the inns and taverns but they always seem to notice the PCs and force them to bow to them. As I have read a few time before, not everyone in the whole tavern bows every time a noble/templar walks in the room, however if you are sitting quietly at the bar or something, if you dont stand and bow you are singled out amongst all the other people in the tavern for not bowing. Seems strange to pick me out of everyone in the place.

Perhaps southern templars do so if they feel like picking on someone for a specific reason (usually another reason besides bowing) but this sentiment coming from someone suprises me.

I hate it when people jump up and do the wave-bow effect just because I step into a tavern, for the exact reason you're saying templars shouldn't pick on PCs. Come on, you (meaning any PC, not the above poster) are not that important that I am paying attention to whether or not you jump up and bow when I step into a crowded, commoner-infested tavern. I do not care if you bow to me or not. The only time I expect a display of respect is when I have addressed you or shown you direct attention in some manner.

And from what I have observed, every other PC templar feels the same way. Us templars are not obsessed with making the lowly commoners grovel unless we have a very specific reason. It just makes it annoying to have to keep kicking you out of our way.  :twisted:

[Summer]

Thats good! And I do have to say that it mostly seems to be the nobles. Also when someone is sitting at the bar, I assume it isn't facing the rest of the bar, so if you look at them, it is unlikely that they will see you unless they have turned around.

I generally have been ignoring Nobles/Templars unless they pay attention to me. However it seems like they always pay attention to me, and seem a bit miffed if I haven't bowed to them.

[Bestatte]

I'll address Summer's concern about the whole addressing/bowing thing.

If a noble is getting miffed because you're at the bar, facing the wall behind the bartended, and didn't noticed through that eye in the back of your head that he came in (unannounced), then.. I'd suggest the noble has a pretty significant inferiority complex and sucks to be him. He already IS more important than you are. He doesn't -need- you to prove it to him.

Now of course, if he's been announced, loudly, then sure that's a hint that you should turn and give notice to the noble. Or templar.

On the other hand, if he's already sitting there, let's say at "a table in the back of the room"...

And you walk in from the road.. well shit, it's crowded, and you aren't there looking for him, then there's no reason for you to draw attention to yourself or to the Noble. The noble -shouldn't- feel slighted or insulted, because he should realize that he's sitting down, in the back of a big crowded tavern, and the person walking in would have to be a magicker to see through the crowd all the way to the back and aim a bow or curtsy at the noble without catching a confused half-giant in the process.

[Cuusardo]

From what I've been lead to understand, when a noble or templar walks into a bar, there is generally some sort of commotion.  People scrambling to move aside to give them room, showing the proper respect by bowing (or grovelling, as the case may be), perhaps someone loudly announcing the presence of Lord Fancypants or Lady Prissypuss, and other people around you saying something like "Hey, it's Lord Templar Stick-It-To-Ya!" and practically knocking their stools or chairs over to bow.  You've got to be pretty wasted to not notice that kind of stuff.

[Rindan]

From what I've been lead to understand, when a noble or templar walks into a bar, there is generally some sort of commotion.  People scrambling to move aside to give them room, showing the proper respect by bowing (or grovelling, as the case may be), perhaps someone loudly announcing the presence of Lord Fancypants or Lady Prissypuss, and other people around you saying something like "Hey, it's Lord Templar Stick-It-To-Ya!" and practically knocking their stools or chairs over to bow.  You've got to be pretty wasted to not notice that kind of stuff.

If it was a red robed or (tek forbid) a blackrobed templar, I would agree.  People would be scrambling to bow for a red robed, and people would be throwing themselves on the ground face first if it was a black robed.  However, when it comes to blue robes, they are as common as dirt.  They are on every single street corner and go in and out of the taverns virtually as well as non-virtually.  If you scramble to bow every time you see one, you are going to have a very sore back.  I think a tavern would look rather silly if every five minutes everyone scrambles for their feet.  So, would a red or black robed be noticed?  Sure.  A black robed templar in particular would be an excellent time to practice your groveling face down skills.  A common blue though?  They are not worth standing for unless they are paying attention to you for some reason.

[Carnage]

I agree with Rindan here. Blue robes are nothing to really care about. If one approaches you, or you approach one, it's common practice to bow. Otherwise it gets ridiculous that every single patron in a bar like the Gaj or the Barrel would get up, bow to Lord Templar Whatsitdoo, and then sit down and resume action like nothing happened. In fact, I would think the people who got up and bowed would stick out more than those who didn't.

I'd presume that the same thing applies to the ranks of nobility. That senior noble of Borsail is some hot shit. If they would happen to approach you, you'd know it was important. On the other hand, these junior nobles are the equivalent of blue robes: all over the place and with authority, but not that much. That's not to say you shouldn't treat junior nobles and blue-robes with respect but more that you shouldn't beg and grovel and what have you.

Just the other day a noble showed up and decided to harrass my Pc for no reason other than to just be an asshole. He noticed me because I was a PC basically. If nobles want to be twinks and try to harrass ever single commoner PC they meet I am going to make every single character want desperately to kill nobles givin a chance. Seems fair to me. Actually no thats grouping all nobles into one group but  some nobles are good about being ignored and some are just such idiots and want every single person to bow. I guess a solution is to start plotting the nobles death if he keeps up being such a HUGE ass. Eventually he is going to piss off so many commoners one might stick a knife in his back. Besides, killing off all the nobles sounds like good fun. If their heads start rolling maybe they will hire more PC guards, Probably not, since they love the absolute loyalty and superior fighting skills of their NPC's. Ah well I think its a noble quest. All ye newbies harken to my call, start plotting the deaths of nobles, it'll be great .

[Impska]

I've noticed that most nobles who are stuck on the whole "prove that I'm more important than you by grovelling before me" bit, mostly seem to be newer nobles. They've mostly just gotten their characters and are still trying to settle into their personality and are trying desperately not to be a bad noble. After a week or two of rp'ing with other nobles and getting the swing of things, most of them seem to settle down a bit.

If it is part of their character's concept to always need people to affirm for them that they are important (as Bestette mentioned), then they ought to have someone announce them loudly. It's obvious in this case that they expect to be noticed and acknowledged.

If you're in a situation where you've been picked out in a crowd for not bowing (and no announcement has been given), and you had decided that your character simply didn't notice that person, then impress upon them the inappropriateness of their ic actions by shooting off an emote that emphasizes it:

emote Setting his drink down, @ coughs and sputters in surprise at being addressed, apparantly having been unaware of %noble entrance while sitting at the bar, facing away from the rest of the room.

emote turns about and scrambles off his barstool and nearly falls over himself bowing to ~noble.

Eventually, they'll get it.


EDIT: I edited this post for brevity after realizing how off-topic from the original post the thread had gotten.

[Rindan]

I wouldn't worry too much about nobles who try and assert their position to be higher then it is.  There is a vast difference between a noble who has the rank to screw around people for fun, and a junior noble member with no real status other then being a noble.  The lowest of the low nobles usually just end living shorter lives when they try and overstep how much they can poke and prod the masses.  Most of the time they can get away with it, but eventually one of those days they are going to poke the wrong guy and make an enemy they don't have the resources to fight.  It might be a 'rinth elf handy with his dagger and poison who decides to make sort work of the noble.  It could be a hidden magiker or sorcerer who feels like extracting some magiker revenge.  It could just be some half-breed mercenary who is a terror with his weapon, is drunk and having a bad day that easily slits the nobles throat open before the body guards can react.  It could just be some little shit commoner who has the ear of someone bigger who starts seeding nasty rumors or framing the noble.  It might be some piss low commoner who five years later is excessively rich and can afford to hire someone to dispense retribution.

Whatever the case, I wouldn't let it trouble you too terribly much.  A body guard or two is not an imperturbable shield.  Low ranking nobles can only call on templars so many times before the templars start to become annoyed.  Burning resources they don't have and making enemies they don't need is a quick way to one's demise.  That is not to say that a noble with a large head might not try and overstep their bounds ICly, it is just that they are likely to get smacked down ICly in response at some point or another.  It is like walking from Luir's to Tuluk along the road on foot.  You can make the trip safely a dozens of times safely, but if you keep doing it, one of those days something or someone is going to get you.

In defense of any commoner picking on low ranking nobles, realize two things.  First, NPCs are boring to pick on.  If a player decides his noble is in a pissy mood and wants to see a commoner dance, I would much rather that noble pick on a PC then a VNPC or NPC, especially if it is not common behavior for the noble. The game is about interaction, and PCs are going to be the focus.  Second, not everything is random.  I can think of more then one instance where I though that attention one character or another character I had was getting was random, when in truth it turned out to have a very specific reason.  

So, don't sweat it terribly.  The game is fairly self regulating, and when it fails to regulate itself, the imms usually do a good job doing the regulating.

[spawnloser]

I understand what you're saying, Summer (as well as others), but if someone does so much as to pay attention to the noble and by doing so gets the noble's attention, there is no excuse for the person to NOT bow.

I wouldn't exactly emote as Impska suggested, if your character was unaware...it's happened.  Just roll with it and make an emote or tell the noble something like...

> tell stickupbutt (eyes widening as he turns around and looks at !stickupbutt with a start) Oh?  What?  Um...I...I...oh dear.  I'm sorry, Lord!
> tell stickupbutt (glancing over his shoulder to the stage and gesturing vaguely to the bouncing breasts of the dancer on it before dipping into a low bow) I was...a little distracted.

As to the matter of PCs getting picked on versus NPCs...NPCs don't have anyone at the keyboard, so most nobles will assume that the appropriate actions happen as appropriately, I would think.  They can't go around killing all the other nobles' guards just because the silly NPCs didn't bow.  As far as VNPCs, it's another of a similar bent:  the VNPC population is, in general, assumed to be the rank and file.  In general, people get out of a noble's way and bow before scurrying on their way.  I think you just haven't been around for the times that nobles pick on the VNPC population, because I know it has happened.

One other thing I think has been misseds that (as mentioned in other threads) there is a difference between solo-RP and RPing with someone else...the game doesn't enforce solo-RP, saying that people have to do it...which is what picking on a VNPC would be.  Picking on a PC, while annoying in some ways, if nothing else, can give you something to do.

Now, I'm not saying that a noble walks into the bar and everyone should bow to him/her...but if you pay attention to the noble, you'd better, because someone paying attention to a noble will get that noble's attention on the person, realistically.  Seriously, if there is interaction with a noble, bowing better be part of it...even if it's just a bowed head from across the bar when you take notice for whatever reason.

[Paladin of Dyrinis]

As a player of a templar I would never chose an NPC over a PC to harass, just as I wouldn't incriminate and torture a LD PC.  This assumes that I have a reason to harass a commoner in the first place, of course.  The fact of the matter is, its a templar's job to interact with other PCs.  Part of this is giving them employment, and special tasks.  And considering the nature of a templar, it isn't unreasonable for this interaction to include making the life of a commoner miserable.  You aren't discounting the virtual world by interacting with PCs over NPCs.  If you steal from a footlocker or kill a fellow clan member in your clan barracks, disregarding the VNPCs there, then -that- is disregarding the virtual world.  But singling out a PC over an NPC is just the normal, expected course of the game.  It would be like getting angry because a PC pickpocket stole from you instead of RPing a theft from a VNPC in a tavern.

That being said, I don't think that picking on a PC in a crowded tavern for the sole purpose of not bowing is very appropriate.  Even if a templar would bother to notice something so trivial, its not likely that they expect everybody to rise and bow upon their entrance.

[Imoho]

Carnage wrote

I don't quite understand your interpretation of 'stereotypical' characters. Could you clarify this?

By stereotypical I mean the f-me bots, the Clint Eastwoods, the loners, etc.; the characters that are a dime a dozen and that are represented by NPCs and VNPCs.  I just think instead of rewarding these characters...that we should help the player to understand these types don't actually exist in the world.  

Malifaxis wrote

don't know if 'imm intervention' is really the right word to use... personally, I never want to see someone suddenly blink out of existance for an immortal coaching session on bad ettiquette. It would take a lot of time out of the immortal's already busy schedule to police the actions of every single commoner. IF there were an immo who's set duty was to help people in that way, that would be very nice... a comment added to the account in something of the vein of: "Hey, you're playing a 2 day ranger/merc who just for the first time came in to the city... your character would be very rough mannered, and would not have pulled out the chair for Lord Hottyfart. Go ahead and be rough, don't be scared of the reaction... roleplay is what it is all about." would go *very* far (as I see it) in helping this situation. But the fact is, there's no immo who is set up to do that sort of thing.

This goes back to the balance idea.  As stated by a few of the posts discussing "bowing" too many nobles and templars seem to overvalue themselves.  Even house servants and some wealthy commoners, at times, appear to go unchecked... building more and more power.  Imms have the ability to, when it becomes blatantly apparent ( Makes it to rumor boards or is talked about by over half the PCs involved or if a noble is allowing for too much "help" from any type of commoner or outside family member) that someone has overstepped their authority in game... the Imms (I assume they are the ones with the Red robes and Senior status) need to either email the player and say tone it down... or log in and keep these junior nobles, merchants, advisors, or templars in their rightful place.  

He or she also wrote

Well, imho, imho I would agree more with you if you had perhaps put some thought in to this statement:
-AND- I'd love to hear suggestions, if anyone has them...

:arrow:  Here is my suggestion, you should grow up when discussing things on the gdb.  A comment like the one you started your post for is childish because you think that anyone who you disagree with needs to "put more thought into it"  :?:  :?:  :!:

               

One other thought... many have been talking about nobles and templars picking out PCs who do not bow.  This can actually cramp the game as well.  Sometimes a character actually chooses to disrespect or lightly respect a templar or noble.  Fact is if nobles/templars –always- pick up on things like that, 1.  No player will continue to do that and 2. Others who may be close enough to observe such behavior will never have a chance to react to it.

[Mean cranky better than U]

Disagree. I love being afraid of Templars. I love how you can get a little rush when one walks in the room and looks at you, and you feel guilty even if you didn't do anything. That's what templars are for. When I play one I go out and look for someone to screw with. That's my ooc job. Are you saying you want to be left alone? Too much interaction? Mad because the nobles and templars aren't taking your drink orders and bringing presents?

I never screw with anyone for not bowing if it is possible they didn't see me, but once I address you, and I'm looking at you? Not bowing is a big "Please ream my ass hard. Thank you" flashing neon sign on your forehead.

If you just want to be left alone, why not bow. Or better yet, log off and masturbate.

[aeshyw]

I've been reading this thread and the more I read the more I seem to see a single theme coming through - people are applying their twenty-first century, Western ideas to the two city-states and looking at the entire noble/commoner direction through modern-tinted sunglasses.

I personally think that the cause of this trend is two-pronged and caused by 1) Nobles who act like Commoners and 2)The players of some Commoners not stopping to think of what their attitude toward the nobility might be and why.

Just take a look at the existence of the two classes and the differences between them:

As a Commoner, unless you are of the Merchant 'middle' class, you have likely been raised in relative poverty, struggling just to survive.  There aren't enough jobs to go around, food (except in the North) is relatively scarce and life expectancy is low, at best.

A Noble has been raised in a magnificent estate.   The very ring on their finger is worth more then most Commoners will see in a lifetime.  Since infancy, Commoners and Slaves have been literally tripping over themselves to provide for the Noble's every whim. (Of course, this also varies with the wealth of the house involved, with the lower tiers likely not enjoying nearly the same level of comfort as a Noble of the Upper Tier).

Now, add to this reality a few small points:

If you are a Commoner, you have likely been told your entire life to obey the Templarate and that the Nobility is quite simply, better then you are.  You very likely believe it to be true, as well.  You have likely had -very- little direct contact with a 'real' member of the nobility and you will also likely have heard wild tales of both the generosity and cruelty of various charismatic nobles your whole life, much as you might hear tales about sports stars in today's society.

If you are a Noble, a Commoner is a tool, fodder or perhaps in some very -rare- occasions, a valued servant whose opinions might at times be taken with a grain of salt and mostly regarded as the misguided opinions of someone without the benefit of breeding or education.

When it comes to interactions between the two, I do not think that those differences would -ever- be ignored.    There are certain protocols that would always be followed, but whether or not your character would follow them as a Commoner will greatly depend on their education and background.  Pretty much every one knows to bow when they hear a noble being announced.  People who have a fear of a slow, torturous death might bow to every templar they notice - PC and NPC.  Employees of Noble Houses will likely be paying MUCH greater attention to such matters and showing as much courtesy as possible so as not to give their employer's rivals a reason to laugh at them for their ill-mannered servants.

I -personally- think that there haven't been many nobles walking around forcing people to bow to them in quite some time.  I've been watching and just haven't seen it.  What I have seen is some nobles having their NPC guards announce their presence, and PCs reacting to that with bows. I've also seen a few nobles that on occasion take the time to interact with Commoner PCs they see around them, and of -COURSE- treat those Commoners in a condescending manner.  The CityStates are not places where everyone was raised with Sesame Street and everyone tries to treat everyone else with respect - and if they were, the game would be very boring.

My suggestions to those who have felt singled-out by a noble or templar are this - are they threatening your life for something they really shouldn't have noticed? Or are they trying to provide a bit of interaction with someone that you normally wouldn't have gotten to ever get that close to otherwise?  An even more likely scenario is that the noble in question is sizing up your ability to serve their house or themselves in some fashion.  I truly think that some people are confusing roleplay with harassment.  


Nobles are walking personifications of the 'sid that makes the world go round.  I would suggest that instead of thinking of Armageddon as 'us versus them', it be viewed as a virtual world where even the lowest of nobles has a certain celebrity.  I'd imagine everyone has at some point in their life dealt with even minor celebrity or seen the commotion that accompanies one.  I personally can recall an incident back in high school that I was reminded of in reading this thread.    

I went to a boarding school and one of the other students there was the son of a minor television star (one who has been on trial for murder of late).  There were others with more famous parents, but this particular one was on campus visiting.  A group of other girls and I dragged ourselves down to the cafeteria for breakfast in our sweats as we always did, hair disheveled, half-awake..and who should sit down with us but Noah and his dad.   One by one..with the utmost casualness, every single girl at that table found an excuse to go brush her teeth and hair and show up back at the table again, all sophisticated boredom and casual disdain.  When the dad ran out of coffee, again, this same group of 'Icouldcareless' girls somehow found a reason to keep his cup filled without him even asking.  At the time, I remember feeling just a little awed at the people he probably knew and hoping he'd talk about it; but of course, he just wanted to hear about the school.

PCs get to play nobles so that they can provide that 'extra' level of specialness to the game.  It's not a way for them to enjoy abusing power, it's a way for them to USE power to make the game dangerous, interesting and full of conflict and plotting.  In any case, I've rambled on enough.  I would personally like to see more people pay greater attention to the gulf between the nobility and commoner people, and more social climbing within common society, as well.

Just my longwinded two 'sids...

[My 2 sids]

I love how you can get a little rush when one walks in the room and looks at you, and you feel guilty even if you didn't do anything. That's what templars are for. When I play one I go out and look for someone to screw with.

I'll just say this and that will be all.  One's first character usually makes or breaks the game for them.  For me I stayed with and enjoyed the game for a few reasions...

A.  No one killed off my character.  Yes, my character goofed up... partly because of who my character was and mostly because I was new to the game.  Instead of simply doing away with my character (which would have been ICly ok)  templars, nobles, and almost all other characters I enteracted with, found IC punishments and learning opprotunites that were not death.  In this way I, the player, as well as my character was able to learn and grow from them.  

B.  OOC and Imm help.  These people answered my questions (both ICly and OOCly when approprate) without some of the condecending and harsh answers I have noticed a few people giving OOCly.  

C.  My first character, although never really envolved, had opprotunities to watch the political and social plots.  I think sometimes newbies create/play/stick with their guilds are they don't know what other type of jobs are avalible.  Warriors, hunters, idependent thieves are all fairly self-explanitory.  I for one never even thought of an "aide" or "spy" character because they were not listed in the guilds.

[Malifaxis]

Heh.  I do so love maturity.

In respect to the wise, albeit longwinded, post of Aeshyw:

I also have seen this sort of thing happen IRL.  In my regard it was when I was working as a bouncer at a certain twin cities industrial dance club.  Filled with goths, darksiders, suicide rockers, junkies, pimps'n'hos.

One day, working the door, this rather short dude comes in, dark of skin, flanked by two huge mothas.  Short dude: wearing a lot of purple, shades, immaculately trimmed, with this amazingly radiant smile.  Royalty obviously... unfortunately, at the time his name did not respect this, as it was a symbol.  He was formerly, however, known as Prince.

Dude strides in like he owns the place, starts flashing that smile around, sidles right up to the bar under the thumping, massive music.  I saw the hordes of black dressed, make-up wearing folks that idolize death and don't give a shit about anyone outside of their own self-loathing paradigm part like a certain well known body of water in the greatest work of fiction ever.  Everyone I could see dropped totally *silent*.  Conversations stopped.  People turned and stared.  A few of the darksiders even nodded respectfully.  Why?  Not because he was flanked by Mr. Legbreaker and Mr. Hearttaker.  It was because of the way he carried himself, the way he looked, the way he acted.  Every, and I do mean *every* move he made radiated a supreme confidence... just like a noble on Arm would.

On mean cranky better than you:

I can't expound on this.  Perfectly phrased as I see it.  Awesome.  The templars are there to scare the bejeezus out of PCs... it says so in the docs.  Unfortunately, too few templars take this side of the role seriously as I see it.  Up the tension, *PLEASE*

And on to the statement of he/she who calls me childish while hiding behind a mask of anonymity the way a larval human stands behind a father's leg:

Perhaps it was childish in some respects.  The real point of the statement was to provoke a reaction from you in an attempt to have you justify some of your statements.  Thank you.  And no, I don't think that every person that disagrees with me needs to put more thought in to what they are saying.  I love debate, the livelier the better.  You make many presumptions, which is odd for someone who posts with as much eloquence
and well phrased statements as you use.

By stereotypical I mean the f-me bots, the Clint Eastwoods, the loners, etc.; the characters that are a dime a dozen and that are represented by NPCs and VNPCs. I just think instead of rewarding these characters…that we should help the player to understand these types don’t actually exist in the world.

They don't?  Why do we have a ranger class at all then, if not specifically for these types of people?  These people do exist, both in the real world and in the virtual world we enjoy.  It takes all types to make both worlds go around.

Even house servants and some wealthy commoners, at times, appear to go unchecked… building more and more power.

A very intelligent character, backed by a very intelligent PC should, in my opinion, not be restricted by the immos.  If this PC started on the streets,
worked up through the ranks to a position of relative power as far as commoners go, and established a wide power-base of both abilities and social influences... then what's the problem?  If the immos stepped in and squashed these kinds of PCs, then there would be no room for people to stand as "The power behind the throne" per se'.  If the nobility or templarate see that commoner as becomming too dangerous... they tend to hire PC assassins, or even gangs of them, to go after the person.  If the person lives, or even thrives, through the attempt... more power to them!
When a commoner steps up to that position of relative power, they give a *lot* of other PCs things to do... running errands, spying, artifact hunting,
all sorts of things.  PCs with power, be it 'rinther, commoner, or noble born, make the world go 'round.  They give the 'peons' things to do... everything from getting them a sammich to sneaking in to a distant magicker encampment to find out the secret location of the lost Ring of Eternal Eliteness.  A commoner PC that abuses the relative power they have are quickly extinguished... the ones that use it wisely, and with subtlety, are the ones that truely stick around.  Why?  There's no visible reason for anyone to extinguish them.

Don't take this as an insult, it's not meant to be one, merely a suggestion:
Maybe your problem with PCs that have power stems from an almost sub-concious envy of having a PC that could make a climb as long and as far as the people you vilify?  If so... perhaps you should try it.  I'm willing to
bet that you would realize how much these people drive the world of Zalanthas forward.

[Anonymous]

First to a certain templar in the south who walks in, emotes looking around and pauses for a few moments before walking out...

thanks!

That's the kind of tension I like. The kind where you sit there, hoping to be inconspiciuous by NOT getting up and bowing..hoping to be considered as a PC templar would normally consider an NPC - which is to say, not at all. And not knowing if it worked until the templar leaves. That heart-thumping "OMG what the fuck am I gonna do if he's actually looking for ME?" moment that is so subtle, that it just really sucks you into the game.

Now to the rest.

There's a lot of talk on this thread about commoners vs. nobles and templars. But there's a whole segment of the world that's being completely forgotten here. Those are the people who don't come from or live in Tuluk or Allanak, but have reason to go there sometimes.

Not enough to pick up on the nuances of manners or ettiquette, and not enough to care about them either. The ones who are just visiting for whatever reason, don't really give a shit what people think about them because they're not planning on staying anyway, and don't give a rat's ass that Lord Noble likes his tea lukewarm with a splash of lemon. Why should they care? Sure, they've heard that nobles are superior. That's something people who have interacted with city folks would know.

But the thing is, it doesn't matter to them. Yes, you are superior, Lord Noble. No, I don't give a shit. Your superiority has no affect on my daily life, I'm not a citizen of your city, and I'm not hoping to be hired by you or sit at your table surrounded by your fancy commoner silk-wearing servants. I'm not going to go out of my way to intentionally piss you off, but I'm also not interested in taking lessons on how to squeeze the lemon into your tea. Thanks anyway, but go bother someone who has lived in your culture long enough to appreciate the difference.

Just remember, there ARE people who haven't been taught to appreciate the difference. They might know what the difference is, but it doesn't matter to them one way or another. It doesn't mean the character's player is a twink who didn't read the help files. It just means that the character really HAS just crawled out from under a rock in some remote area of the world and sees everyone in "society" as being very strange.

[Carnage]

Why do we have a ranger class at all then, if not specifically for these types of people?

Because the ranger class is a set of skills useful to anyone who wants to have more versatility than a warrior but lose it in combat ability. This kind of character could be anything from a kank-tamer, a medic, an apothecary, the leader of a caravan, whatever. It wasn't made "specifically" for "the Clint Eastwoods, the loners, etc", as you said.

[Noble Cubed]

To get it in mind as to what nobles are in the game let's take a look at the documentation and see what it means.

Since there are two distinct societies in the game, we'll look at Allanak and Tuluk seperately.

First, from the 'noble' help file:

Born into wealth and power, most nobles expect to be
treated with respect by those of inferior or common blood.

Allanak's nobility:

The social structures in Allanak have existed for, literally, centuries, with little or no change. 99% of individuals raised within this system will have it so deeply engrained that to question it would be tantamont to being an elf that rides a kank, or a dwarf without a focus.

While a noble can expect to have his or her wishes obeyed by a commoner, they do not have the power to enslave people.

The nobility is the ruling class of Allanak.

Nobles are exempt from all laws of Allanak, with the exception of rioting or massing forces against the city-state. Thus, if a noble wishes to bear arms, or proceed to kill a commoner, then that is their perogative, as long as it is not against a member of the militia.

This attitude is reinforced by their benefits: literacy, which acquires near-mystical dimensions in an illiterate society; vast wealth; social status; and freedom from most of the laws of the city.

Socializing with commoners is an odd thing for a noble, much like talking to a household object or their kank.

What I find important about these points is this - In Allanak nobles are the rulers.  Everyone would know this and everyone would also know that a capricious noble can simply kill a commoner outright.  Even Americans know that people bow to the aristrocacy of other nations (although, Americans themselves need not, but those of the nation that is ruled should).  

Now, if this is the case for a land with no king or queen, imagine how ingrained it is for a commoner of a nation who's ruling class is front and centre - and where it is often more feared than revered.  Once again, everyone in Allanak knows what to do.  Everyone who deals in Allanak would know what to do as well - even those who couldn't care about the ruling class - they'd still know that they could be killed on a whim if desired.  Not that many nobles do this - but rumors and stories, especially the bad ones, would always surround the nobility of Allanak - even the players constantly circulate these rumors imagine how the common folk would.

One thing to note - a noble is a noble is a noble to the vast majority of commoners.  They would not know the difference between a Sath noble and a Borsail noble.  All nobles have the capability of ending their life or making their life miserable (more so than it is).  One does not give offense to that and one obeys a noble's every whim hoping not to give offense.  There are certainly some exceptions to this - but expect consequences.

Tuluk is slightly different although most of it is the same (since they share the same historical documentation)

Nobles do not have relationships with commoners. It is unthinkable, and a monstrous violation of social protocols. Children of such alliances often become outcasts and vagabonds and their noble parent is severely reprimanded.

(In Allanak, bastards of such trysts are often cared for by the House and rise to high levels within the House structure - not as nobles but servants, guards, whatever)

Such relationships are considered a social fax paus. The caste system in Tuluk has been in place for years and is a fundamental part of Tuluki society and culture. Such relationships are liabilities for the House. If word were to get out, it would damage not only the noble's reputation, which is bad in itself, but it would also damage the House's reputation.

Nobles are still raised with a strict outlook, born to wealth and accustomed to prodigiously languid lifestyle. The nobility of Tuluk remains freely accessible to the commoners, but the division is strictly maintained. Noble relationships are viewed with the same attitude as one would view a work of art.

However, due to the long period of Southern occupation in which the nobles faced obscurity or death, the relationship between the nobility and the common citizen has developed a much more amicable bond. It is not unheard of, nor is it frowned upon, for a noble to be seen in a tavern (though the selection of taverns are usually chosen to avoid the seedier elements) enjoying the company of the many commoners that inhabit such pubs.

Eager to avoid attention from the occupying Naki forces, the cream of Old Tuluk's nobility dressed and lived as - and in fact were aided by - commoners. Over the years, a few families attracted small but loyal followings in secret sympathy. Others forged promises and alliances with the working class families who assisted them.

In a new and distinctly Tuluki practice coming to be known as patronage, the enterprising noble attracts commoners with promises to relay their needs and political concerns to the noble faction for appeal to the Triumvirate.

In all the point is this - nobles are the ruling class and everyone in the game knows it.  You don't mess with the ruling class if you want to survive.  There isn't a single commoner in the game who has more 'power' than a noble - even the lowest level noble could destroy any commoner.  

Some would dispute this saying the highest ranked members of one of the three major Houses have more power - but the fact of the matter is - they don't.  A lowly noble can influence his or her House and then, in turn, influence the laws of the city.  A merchant can spread their sid around - sure - but it won't make the same impact as a noble who is on the prowl.  Nobles are the power figures in the cities - they make the laws and influence the laws.  Nobles can, with the asking of a favor, lock up anyone or even flat out kill someone.  Certain priviledged commoners might have some aspect of protection - but it won't do them any good after they are dead.  There may be consequences to the noble who does something too overtly and destructive but the point is - the commoner is already dead (or mutilated or exiled or whatever).  

No commoner is above any noble - the only exception are the family heads of the major Merchant Houses who are ranked at the same level as the lowest of the lowest noble Houses.  Source:  http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

[Cuusardo]

This thread has turned into something completely different than what it started out as...

Just an observation.   :shock:

[Carnage]

Taken from "So You Want To Be A Noble": "Nobles are, to a certain extent, above the laws of Allanak, due to their standing. This is not, I'll note, license to go out and kill peasants freely, but a noble who gets involved in a fight will probably not get hauled off to jail."

I disagree with the noble's post. Nobles don't have unlimited power. They have finite resources. They aren't invincible and their actions have just as much repurcussions as a normal character's. Go ahead and treat that 'Rinth rat like shit. Kill him. For all you know, he may have Guild contacts. Wanna make fun of the T'zai Byn? Remember that some of their members might join your house after graduation. Also remember that you might need them for a contract somewhere down the line. Think you have unlimited powers to have people killed and want to go prove it by killing someone who works for another house because of a grudge? Super, now that house is going to be annoyed. Almost every character has at least VNPC friends. Think they're going to be happy when a noble slaughters their friend on a whim?

Theoretically, yes, nobles have powers. But in practice, they really don't. To quote the "What You Know" docs for Allanak: "the commoners are usually of the merchant class or soldiers in Tektolnes' army. The rest of the population earn their living in less honest ways." Now that's a big hunk of the population [Edit] that's in the Militia[/Edit]. Kill a merchant, though, and his friends might raise their prices towards your house. There's an entire system of balances that a noble would be completely ignorant not to recognize.

As for the laws, it's the senators of the house who vote on that sort of thing, not the lower members. And as stated in another post, there's hundreds of nobles in a house. Who says that this junior noble is going to effect the decisions of a senator of quite some years? Hell, the senator might not even be aware of the noble's existance. It's bold to say that all nobles can influence their house and their senators into passing laws. Besides that, the law would have to pass through the senate. Keep in mind that this is all under the watch of Tektolnes, who could, at any time, strike it down. Taken again from the 'What You Know' page: "The nobles are the Highlord's puppets, their "careers" spent gathering popular support and serving in a senate whose decisions are dictated by His Gloriousness...They are usually very ignorant about the way Allanak is run (sometimes they are even chosen because of that specific trait.) "

A noble isn't an invincible being with control over every aspect of life. In fact, they generally have very little control. All the political power and 'sid in the world isn't going to do them any good if some bitter Rinth-rat with a grudge against the noble who carelessly sentenced his brother to death comes and assassinates the noble. Get too cocky and arrogant and it'll come right back to bite you in the ass.