Homosexuality on Zalanthas

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I've been thinking recently about homosexuality in Zalanthas, and how accepted it is amongst the general populace. I think it's a good topic for discussion, and I have many sub-questions I'll bring up later... But as for now, just to get the ball rolling I ask...

How common and accepted is homosexuality among the general populace of the city-states of Zalanthas?

Go ahead AC. Fire away.  :wink:

[Kankman]

Raising a bottle of whiskey to his parched lips a grizzled mercenary says in southern-accented sirihish:
"What? Ya fek arses eh?"

Lowering the bottle in his hand with a brief shake of his head a grizzled mercenary says in southern-accented sirihish:
"Well, t'each their own'en I guess."

A grizzled mercenarys thinks to himself:
"Krath burn me if I give two sids t'know what gets'im goin'."

Well, to sum up past discussions (Very poorly mind you, since I am too tired to look it up) was that it wouldn't be taboo like in our society, because there's really no stigma like what comes from our Church's and now Media. Look at Ancient Greece or Rome (I can't remember) where homosexuality was much more common, and referred to openly. I believe it was even a rite of passage for a young boy to make man-love. But I might've made that part up.

But I know for sure that in some cultures on Zalanthas (Perhaps not the City-States) there is accepted (Not accepted really, because no one's trying to reject it, it's just there) homosexuality. But I imagine these cultures all recognize the infertility of such a couple, and may procreate for the sake of procreation.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Look at Ancient Greece or Rome (I can't remember)

Greece, I'm fairly certain, Tony. Thanks. It was always my belief that homosexuality was fairly accepted among the general populace, but I wanted to hear some other viewpoints, from people that have played longer than me or even played homosexual characters and such. But, seeing as how this is indeed an old topic, and I was too lazy to run a search first, I think I'll throw in one of my sub-questions to make this thread at least vaguely interesting to some...

Would insults suggesting that a person is a homosexual be as offensive on Zalanthas as they are on Earth?

[Angela Christine]

Eh, I think it depends.

In my one attempt at gender bending I had a pretty boy of . . . ambiguous sexuality.  I figured I couldn't pull off a manly man.  Someone once said he should be a catamite, that might have been an attempt at an insult, but the person was rendered speachless when he said he -was- a former catamite.  :twisted:  Maybe it was mean to have a femine guy join the Byn. Now a catamite isn't necessarily homosexual, any more than a prostitute is a nymphomaniac, but it's related to homosexuality.

Honestly, I'd think that without taboo bisexuality would be more common.  Bisexuality might not be quite the right term, it isn't so much that everyone would be attracted to both men and women, but that they'd be more willing to recognise that a chance to get your rocks off is a chance to get your rocks off.  If you are getting a good blow job, does it really matter that much what else is attached to the mouth?

Lets assume that Zalanthians are sophisticated enough to make the connection between Penis-vagina sex and procreation.  Ok.  But these aren't puritins, they don't have sex only to make babies.  When you want to breed you find someone you think would make a good parent, but when you just want to have fun and work off some tension then breedability isn't a big factor.  In fact, a canny noble or rich person might prefer same-sex whores and pleasure slaves, -because- they  want to have fun but don't want to breed.  Who wants to have a half-noble bastard slave?  Nobody, and that goes double for female nobles.  You don't have to be homosexual to use a same-sex person for sexual gratification.

In real life a lot of people fool around a little when they are young or "experiment" in colege.  They aren't homosexual, they are just fooling around, and mostly they go on to have typical hetrosexual lives with kids and a house in the suburbs.

AC

[flurry]

Would insults suggesting that a person is a homosexual be as offensive on Zalanthas as they are on Earth?

I would think they would be both less common and less offensive.  

Perhaps a more common type of insult would be to suggest someone has sex with those of a different humanoid race  (e.g. elf-fecker), which could potentially be more offensive.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The Sergeant of one of my former character's was (I think) homosexual.

My half-giant never figured it out, but he often wondered why the water cleric was always at her apartment.

I personally feel that Zalanthians wouldn't care about homosexuality.  Like others have said, there is no bible on Zalanthas, and when it comes right down to the bone of the matter the only reason people are turned off and against homosexuality is because the bible says that its wrong.

Then of course there are the people who think that because of the urgent drive to procreate in a dying world, homosexuality would be scarce or nonexistant, which is simply put, bullshit.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Although this thread's only been up for an hour or so, I'd like to tack on yet another one of my sub-questions:

If there are 'marriages' between nobles, could a similar bond exist between two nobles of the same sex, even if only for the temporary alliance it would form between the Houses involved?

For those of you keeping score at home, I've pretty much asked three questions here, just for the sake of discussion. It's kind of an old topic, I know, but I don't see why having it exhumed every now and then could be a bad thing... The other two questions are:

1. How common and accepted is homosexuality among the general populace of the city-states of Zalanthas?

2. Would insults suggesting that a person is a homosexual be as offensive on Zalanthas as they are on Earth?

[EvilRoeSlade]

2. Would insults suggesting that a person is a homosexual be as offensive on Zalanthas as they are on Earth?

Again, I think thats strictly an earth thing.  If you'd take a moment to really think about "gay" insults you'd realize that if nobody cared about homosexuality one way or the other, than likewise nobody would care about being called homosexual.  The worst that I could think of is that it would be akin to calling somebody barren, which seems like a pretty flimsy insult, unless your telling it to a desert woman who belongs to a dying tribe.

[Barzalene]

Although this thread's only been up for an hour or so, I'd like to tack on yet another one of my sub-questions:

If there are 'marriages' between nobles, could a similar bond exist between two nobles of the same sex, even if only for the temporary alliance it would form between the Houses involved?

For those of you keeping score at home, I've pretty much asked three questions here, just for the sake of discussion. It's kind of an old topic, I know, but I don't see why having it exhumed every now and then could be a bad thing... The other two questions are:

1. How common and accepted is homosexuality among the general populace of the city-states of Zalanthas?

2. Would insults suggesting that a person is a homosexual be as offensive on Zalanthas as they are on Earth?

I once played a noble who was involved in a wedding negotiation. A big part of that negotiation was the children. How many, and which house they'd be from. But can I state unequivically that that contract was a standard contract? No.

[creeper386]

First, I SWEAR I know what EvilRoe is talking about with  the sergeant, or I've seen a similar thing and it didn't draw any attention.

I think among PCs, homosexuality is more uncommon then it would be common for the world. And among PCs insults in that area would probably pack a bigger punch then normal.

But it shouldn't, so don't make it common!!


For the most part... I think homosexuality would be just as common as different sex sex in regards to just getting off. I could see close knit tribes doing the same sex thing because, alot of tribes would be smaller and it's probably known that inbreeding doesn't have the best results. So unless it's already been planned that you are out to have a baby, going with your own sex would get the same results without the possibility of killing off a child bearing female because of pregnancy problems or having a worthless child. Among mercenaries it could be common as, there may not always be someone of the opposite sex around that would acctually be trust worthy. Among commoners in city states I see it as MOST common. Just because... I'm not sure why, specially when mul mix is fairly common and fairly cheap from my understanding. But, I think it just wouldn't matter as much, unless they were out to have children.


Creeper says you shouldn't pay attention to anything above.

[spawnloser]

I'll say this again...it was said regarding Noble breeding in a different thread.

Inbreeding only increases the chance of complication by 10%...considering the chance of complication is .03%, that makes the total chance of an inbred complication of .033%.  That's a huge difference, if you ask me.

[chinwa]

Yes, but that chance increases at a very rapid pace the more generations of imbreeding that occur.

[Carnage]

Not to mention the higher chances of acquiring a genetic disease.

[spawnloser]

That is true, but most societies have a large enough gene pool to prevent that...even the tribals.

[Carnage]

If you're referring to a noble family as a 'society', no, they don't. These aren't big huge families. If you want an example of what inbreeding can do, just take a look at some of the purebred dogs. A lot were inbred and have genetic problems.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Heh, if you want an example of what inbreeding can do to a species, just look at the half-giants.

[kiddgoth]

Inbreeding ... hrm ever wonder where all those mutants come from wandering the tuluki streets.. :shock: .. No seriously I think sexuality is a personal approach there is always going to be exceptions to the norm and thats great.. but in reality sex = procreation you cant carry on a blood line if you have two men together or two women, so like it was mentioned earlier comon homosexuality might be a foppish noble experimenting with a young ceasar crouped boy behind closed doors or two sexy women getting together that are tired of all the drunken warrior male games. I just dont think they would be blatant about it theres to many rough narrow minded individuals in this harsh world that would give them a hard time. Look at Fale for example ...  :wink: ... I dont even have to say anymore than that.

Did you grab my ass?

[spawnloser]

Nobles don't only breed with people of the same family...noble families are larger than you might think and there are plenty of other noble houses to marry into/out of.

[Barzalene]

Oh, I think a noble might be in committed relationship with someone of the same gender. However, I don't know if they'd marry someone of the same gender, unless there was something to exchange of equal value to children.

[Carnage]

noble families are larger than you might think

Why don't you give us your informed opinion and share some rough numbers? I'm assuming, of course, that you have some sort of basis to these and aren't just going, 'maybe about twenty or a hundred'.

[mansa]

i'm guessing 20 - 100, in the noble houses.

But, seriously.

No on the gay jokes.  It's not as vicious as it is on Earth, where there is 3 major religions that condem it.  It's more vicious to call them a elf's whore or something like that.

Having children is a -major- consideration of the decision for marriage in houses.

Sure, you might be gay, but you can still have children with a wife you hate.

[spawnloser]

As has been brought up, children are a major consideration in noble marriages.  As someone mentioned, part of the marriage arrangement is how many children will come of the deal.  As far as if a noble would have a same-sex marriage, I would assume that it is out of the question.  "Get yourself a same sex concubine/pleasure-slave, but you're going to produce children for the good of the family!"  That's what I would forsee being the edict given to Lord Junior-Noble-Man.

As far as family sizes in the nobility, I have personal insight into.  In a particular noble house, there are two active PCs, but know by name 8 other NPC's...some coded some not.  Now, that's just the tip of the iceberg...for to have some of the people about to birth some of these people in the first place, there had to have been at least 10 more.  That's at least 20 people...but now, what about the rest of these people's children?  I would give a rough guess at a minimum of 30 people in that noble house alone.  Keep in mind, I could be way off because there could be plenty of VNPCs that aren't a direct cause/effect relationship away from the NPCs that I personally know of.  Also, I really, truly doubt that any error I am putting up here is by overestimating the size of the family.  Now, that's one family...in the north, there are 6 other families and in the south, 8 others.  If family sizes are similar, that gives a population over over 200 nobles in the north, closer to 300 in the south.  And that would be my bare minimum estimate.  Considering that marriages are political and business affairs, I doubt that any noble would be marrying within their house, which would mix things up a bit, making it such that cousin marriages are seldom, second and third being more common...but still, the majority of those marrying are probably hard pressed to find any relation because searching the records for how they are related is too much of a bother.

[Carnage]

As far as family sizes in the nobility, I have personal insight into. In a particular noble house, there are two active PCs, but know by name 8 other NPC's...some coded some not.

Are these 10 nobles all in one generation together? I personally presume they aren't, but for the sake of this thread we'll pretend they are.

Now, that's just the tip of the iceberg...for to have some of the people about to birth some of these people in the first place, there had to have been at least 10 more.

This's where things get muddled. Do you have a family tree or anything to actually go by here? Who says some of these aren't inbred or brother and sister?

That's at least 20 people...but now, what about the rest of these people's children? I would give a rough guess at a minimum of 30 people in that noble house alone. Keep in mind, I could be way off

You're assuming and guessing an awful lot here. Based on one number you've given for what's probably not even a single generation of nobles, you're predicting how many parents there are and  VNPCs and siblings. Until an imm comes in here and verifies these wild guesses, this doesn't quite count as reliable information.

[JollyGreenGiant]

As nearly as I can tell, in any given civilization, the nobility accounted for between 5-10% of the population.  If we account both nobles and templars as "nobility", it looks like a fairly large number at first glance.  However, humans account only for a portion of the actual population of Zalanthas, which means that we're really only looking at 5-10% of the human population as breedable noble stock.  That could be a large number, or not, I guess.  What's the overall human population in Allanak and Tuluk?

To throw a spoke in the wheel, though, this is a world where mutations are, if not common, then not exactly rare either.  I think it'd be fairly safe to assume that the rate of inbreeding probably doesn't outpace the rate of mutation, even if the initial gene pool was fairly small, since each generation with a mutation would be divergent, rather than convergent.