Homosexuality on Zalanthas

[sancho]

- - That's it. I'm repeating myself one last time. It's clear people can't fucking read these days, and anything I say is going to be twisted because actually putting up counter points takes crazy things like EFFORT and THINKING.

Sancho, believing in a religion that says homosexuality is bad does not mean that you have to have already had the belief that homosexuality is bad.

- - Here's what I wrote all of ONE POST AGO, so far back in the thread that it was probably the most recent thing you glanced over before replying:

My point was that if you believe that homosexuality is bad because your religion says it is, you are already going to believe that homosexuality is bad.



I'm done. Goodbye.

[Angela Christine]

Disgust is quirky.  I remember when I thought cooked spinich was disgusting, now I'm ok with it.  Plenty of kids think seeing evidence of sexuality between their parents or grandparents is disgusting.  Heck, many kids find all displays of "mushy stuff" to be disgusting, regardless of who is involved.  Personally I find public washrooms that hold more than one person at at time to be disgusting both in theory and in practice -- I don't want to hear other people's bodily functions, much less smell them, it's utterly revolting.  As for sex, I find it all mildly disgusting because of the afore-mentioned dislike of bodily function noises, I don't even like noisy kissing, but the gender of people involved doesn't make a difference to me.  Girl on girl, guy on guy, girl on guy, it's all equally disgusting and/or hot to me.  Eating snails, raw oysters, raw fish, or anything with an exoskeleton is disgusting.  Rotting food is disgusting.  Klingon cuisine is disgusting.  If I think about it too hard eating animals is disgusting, and I've been driven to vegetarianism a few times, so I try not to think about it.  Stale body odour is disgusting to me, and probably to most people from countries that are into soap, shampoo, perfume and heavily marketed deoderant, but not to people in Zalanthas or vast areas of Earth, they probably don't even notice it much less think about it.  Advertisers spend a fortune to convince us to buy thier hair removal products because body hair on a woman is disgusting, and they are now working on male body hair too.  Mmmm, men with bikini waxes.  I don't know of any cultures that consider armpit hair attractive, but most of them seem to consider it a non-issue.

My point?  I'm not sure.    Culture does heavily influence what you find disgusting, but doesn't wholely dictate it.  

Sex, perhaps partly due to christianity, is a major issue for most of us.  There is very little about sex in the bible, but it's a big deal in most churches.  For most people masturbation is a guilty pleasure and slightly mysterious.  The idea of children masturbating, married people masturbating indendently or old people masturbating is disturbing to many people.  Childhood masturbation was disturbing enough to Victorians that some doctors advocated that if you caught a boy masturbating he should be circumsized without anesthetic to break him of it.  :shock:  We are terribly concerned with what other people are doing with their bodies, especially if they might enjoy it.  I know I am.  

Maybe Zalanthians simply aren't as obsessed with sex as Americans.  Some people dislike guy on guy action, so they don't participate in it.  That doesn't mean they find the practice so abhorant that they need to make a big deal if they think someone else is doing it.  Like armpit hair and body odour, it could be a non-issue.  It isn't a matter of tollerance or acceptance, they just don't give a damn.  They have better things to worry about, like the stumpies that are stealing their jobs, the norther/souther barbarians that stole their land or the elves that are trying to steal everything else.  Zalanthas has a fantastic foundation for racism, sexism, classism, and magickism.  They have better things to worry about than what you are doing with your fun bits.

AC

[spawnloser]

My point was that if you believe that homosexuality is bad because your religion says it is, you are already going to believe that homosexuality is bad.

Sancho, I understand that you said this.  This was specifically what I was responding to, actually.  I'm saying that this is flawed logic...it is rhetoric and nothing else.  The belief came from somewhere...either you thought it wrong before or because the religion says so, not both, as this statement of yours literally reads.

[creeper386]

Well I'm I have such convuluted posts so I don't mind people reading them wrong. But the things you repeated four times there I think. Two before I posts, a third in response to my post and another in response to Spawnlosers... I was talking about that right there. And you say people don't bother to state anything but heedlessly argue... You countered what I said by repeating what I was disputing... I don't see how thats any different.

Anyways...

I'd rather see some innovative and non humdrum things here. Alliances with multiple partners, same sex partnerships, handfastings that last only a year with an option to renew, alliances with the sole purpose of producing children, which dissolve after that end is met, nomads who look at you blankly when the word "marriage" is introduced because they have no such concept.

I think sexual relationships in Zalanthas would run the spectrum. I've heard some people argue that homosexuality wouldn't exist in Zalanthas because of the harshness of the world...procreation would be strong enough an impulse that everyone would be hetero. I think that's ludicrous.

I think people have recapped my viewpoint about homosexuality on Armageddon pretty accurately, but to recap, there is to my mind no reason why it shouldn't exist in the Zalanthan world in much the same proportion as our own, a figure which carries according to who you talk to. I go by the 1 in 10 figure.

Well... I'm going to be sorry if those quotes are out of context... But Sanvean is the big lady on the block, and naatok, well naatok's a Legend. No longer staff but still probably knows alittle bit about whats going on. Now... 1 in 10 is pretty common. And what I did was exactly what I recommended anyone else do, is do a search on homosexuality and can see staff responses to previous threads. Both of those threads are only a few months old I beleive. And I think Sanvean put her opinion pretty bluntly. If you want to read the rest of the players opinions, as well as the rest of Sanvean's posts... Go for it.


Creeper

[spawnloser]

Thanks, oh creepy one.  I had forgotten to throw staff responses in sancho's face.

[ShaLeah]

I'll throw in my opinion, what the hell, right? I've only had three hours of sleep after a night on the town though, so be warned.


This is Zalanthas, oh addicts of mine, this is not the modern day, real world... But lo and behold! No matter -how- hard we try there will always be flaw on Zalanthas, what is that flaw I ask you? Simple...

We will always, always bring real world views into the game... examples? Do I really need to give any? Let's, just for GP...

1.  A boss is a boss is a boss, just like in rl.
2.  There are rules, laws we must follow as citizens and we can not go around doing whatever the fuck we want.
3.  We can't completely detach from something, it's impossible (imho), my hardest role was one in which I was nothing like the character and it was such a struggle that even after a mix up, where I could have asked for a rez, I chose to let the bitch die. Playing her was driving me crazy.
4.  No matter how great of a roleplayer we are or think we are, we will still be uncomfortable doing in game what we find uncomfortable in rl.  I'll be the first to admit, my characters have found themselves in homosexual situations and though I have played them out, I still get a heebeejeebee feeling because of it. One situation put me off so badly that to this day, if I recognize the playing style, my characters run.


I would love it if people would be able to stop bringing rl morals/opinions/expectations into Zalanthas but I know that if I am not able to do so completely (and I think I'm pretty open to making Zalanthas totally different than rl), then others may find it completely impossible. There is not any one society nowdays that is completely alright with homosexuality, to expect those in Zalanthas to be, is not realistic within the realism of that which essentially governs the players of its PCs.. real life. As long as Zalanthas is being played by modern day humans, we will continue having debates on what is and what is not proper... from making a bynner every time to whether or not homosexuality is commonplace.

In reality, homosexuality is not commonplace on Zalanthas, I have yet to see an openly gay couple anywhere in game. Behind closed doors it's one thing, outside in the open, holding hands, caressing each other... when was the last time you saw that in the Barrel/Gaj/Sanctuary/Silver Wheel?
In reality, on Zalanthas, lesbian relationships are, I'd say, about 90% more prevalent than gay relations. With the amount of men playing female characters... which I would say is also more prevalent than its counterpart, it's no wonder.
In reality, on Zalanthas, if it were more commonplace, we'd see it more, right? Like we see open magickers in Allanak and nowhere else... why? It's commonplace in Allanak, not so in other places. Same thing with homosexuality.

As much as we as the playerbase/staff would like homosexuality to be more normal than it is in modern day, it's not.

This is only my opinion!

ShaLeah
-who has yet to have the balls to play a male character

[The Archbishop]

Well I think it depends on the person really. Someone might just be really offended that someone of the same gender is hitting on them, some might just disregard it. I haven't played a homo char yet so my char's have ben pretty offensive towards fruity people. Course you can't really call them fruity so I call them ginka's sometimes. Heh people probably now know who some of my char's have been. Like AC, I was the one she was reffereing to who told that char it should be a catamite. I don't think homosexuality really matters on arm. If you have enough money you could probably start a beastiality market in the bazaar. Wierd people out there in the sands.

The Archbishop

[Callisto]

Thanks, oh creepy one.  I had forgotten to throw staff responses in sancho's face.

"Welcome to high school" - Hade

That is because I see one very important reason as to why homosexuality should NOT be shunned, mocked or treated with disdain on Zalanthas: Because I can imagine that'd make the game pretty damned uncomfortable for gay people to play.

We aren't a special group that needs to coddled and protected. The last thing we need is someone coming to our rescue, or creating some kind of protective bubble around us to ensure we're super happy double-plus good all the time. I'm sure you meant well, but as long as you think we're in need of some kind of sheltering, you're part of the problem.

If the staff decided to take the stance that same-sex coupling is frowned upon by the general population, then that's fine, I wouldn't mind any more then I'd mind finding out a character in a book is a bigot, because its fictional and has no basis on the real world. If the staff decided that it would be frowned upon by the population, but decided not to make it an active aspect of the game because gay people might be offended, then I would no doubt drop Armageddon like a bad habit.

[j0ram]

If the staff decided to take the stance that same-sex coupling is frowned upon by the general population, then that’s fine, I wouldn't mind any more then I'd mind finding out a character in a book is a bigot, because its fictional and has no basis on the real world. If the staff decided that it would be frowned upon by the population, but decided not to make it an active aspect of the game because gay people might be offended, then I would no doubt drop Armageddon like a bad habit.

As loath as I am to make an actual serious post on the GDB, I have to jump in here and agree with Callisto. It is not the place of a single player, or even a group of players, to place their own mindset over the entire population of Zalanthas. It is the place of the staff to do so.

[creeper386]

If the staff decided that it would be frowned upon by the population, but decided not to make it an active aspect of the game because gay people might be offended, then I would no doubt drop Armageddon like a bad habit.[/quote]

Well... I don't think the staff decided it is frowned upon be the population, I think they decide that it isn't frowned upon. Which I think Sanvean's statement covers that pretty well.

In reality, homosexuality is not commonplace on Zalanthas, I have yet to see an openly gay couple anywhere in game. Behind closed doors it's one thing, outside in the open, holding hands, caressing each other... when was the last time you saw that in the Barrel/Gaj/Sanctuary/Silver Wheel?

You don't see many PC homosexuals, but you also don't see many PC templars when there are hundreds of them out there. You don't see that many PC beggars. That doesn't mean they aren't on every street. It's hard to represent the homosexual population in NPCs as, you can't really just put in their description that they are gay. Perhaps there should be a sparsing of male/male NPC couples, or female/female PC couples, or even just echos regarding such like the echoes of various things in Trader's. But just because it isn't represented by the PC population doesn't mean it isn't in the world.

And in response to that whole forgot to throw staff responses into sancho's face and the welcome back to High School.... I wasn't trying to throw the staff response in anyones face. People repeated several times they'd like to see an official staff response. I posted they could search for a similar thread and find one, it looked like noone was so I did and a quoted the more revelant sections that I could find, leaving in enough as well as the link so there was less chance that the quote was out of context... And if *I* took it out of context I wasn't trying to purposely fool someone with it. Not appoligilies but would just like to put that out there.

Creeper[/quote]

[spawnloser]

Yeah, like creeper said, I only meant that if people wanted clarification and to argue, all you have to do is go to the staff...the people that make the rules.  They've already made a decision on this matter, so there's no use arguing over it any longer.  If someone wants to, I'll just keep pointing back at staff responses.

[Vox]

Duck.. here come my two 'sid flying into this thread.

I find it unfortunate that this topic has sparked such contention between posters when in reality the original purpose for creating this thread was to stimulate open discussion. I find however that such open discussion is rather impossible when those posters who average upwards of 3.93 posts per day smell blood in the water and go into a feeding frenzy of hastily drawn, arrogant responses.

The point of this entire thread was to hear opinions on the subject of Homosexuality in Zalanthas and how such a thing 'should' be responded to ICly and most importantly 'why'.  A few people have stated their opinions and brought interesting points to consider and think on regarding this topic... While a few others have unfortunately tried to present themselves as absolute authorities on the subjects of Hedonism, Nobility, Anthropology, Theology, Zoology and I could have sworn I read someone waxing poetic about the lesser theories of metaphysical darwinism... but maybe I was just blinded by Spawnloser's dancing signature, which seemed to keep popping up with such proliferation that my monitor looked like the halloween episode of Soul Train.

Creeper, one of your posts bore the inclusion of actual quotes from staff members and for this I must say that it was one of the most intuitive things I have ever seen you do in your posting history on this discussion board. I must also say however that I am disheartened to read about your dislike for Sancho. Sancho's posts were well-constructed and offered substantiating points for his opinions. You don't have to agree with him but you do have to respect him by not offering such personal attacks. Such a statement has no baring on the subject matter, nor does it help to keep the atmosphere calm and conducive to learning. Spawnloser also jumped onto this burning bandwagon and for that I waggle a finger in his abrasively-signatured direction as well.

On one hand though I suppose we all should have expected a post regarding Homosexuality on Zalanthas to liberate itself into a 'creepy' dance party of flaming 'losers'... but I like to think we're better than that.  :shock:  -sorry, i had to go there... just try to appreciate its creativity.-

Regarding the actual subject matter, I believe I share Callisto's opinion. I would add however, that until there is an actual decree from a staff member that Homosexuality is to be universally shunned I suggest we leave the handling of Homosexual PCs to the other individual PCs that come into contact with them and not try to force our own 'humble' opinions down everyone else's collective throat.  

Shun or love them, screw or kill them, just do it because that's what your character would do.  Yes, this means that you have a few more things to think about during character creation: 'Um.. am I.. am I gay?' and 'Krath, how -would- I react if I found out my friend was gay?'  Maybe your character is a 'survivalist' and would never dream of such a thing... Maybe your character is a 'hedonist' and seeks pleasure of ANY kind and form... Whatever your choice, just be aware that not everyone is the same and that sometimes choosing a behavior that is 'different' from the 'norm' can result in negative attention. In Sanvean's example she mentions wanting to see 1 out of 10 people gay... If you're the only one out of ten people doing something then sorry you're the different one. This doesn't mean everyone hates you nor does it mean that what you are doing is intrinsically wrong, but it does mean that everyone will have -some- opinion about your 'different' behavior based on their own behavior. If you choose to be different you better be prepared to deal with those people who choose to feel violently about 'different' folk just as easily as you're prepared to deal with those people who embrace your difference warmly... Personally, I'm all about conflict because therein lies the drama. :twisted:

Anyway, that was my two 'sid... Don't spend it all at once.

[Carnage]

The point of this entire thread was to hear opinions on the subject of Homosexuality in Zalanthas and how such a thing 'should' be responded to ICly and most importantly 'why'. A few people have stated their opinions and brought interesting points to consider and think on regarding this topic... While a few others have unfortunately tried to present themselves as absolute authorities on the subjects of Hedonism, Nobility, Anthropology, Theology, Zoology and I could have sworn I read someone waxing poetic about the lesser theories of metaphysical darwinism... but maybe I was just blinded by Spawnloser's dancing signature, which seemed to keep popping up with such proliferation that my monitor looked like the halloween episode of Soul Train.

Point awarded to Vox.


But seriously, who the hell cares if Zalanthas is full of homosexuals, queers, lesbos, whatever? It's obvious the staff hasn't cared to really touch this with a ten foot pole so just play it however you want.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

The main reason I started this thread was to see if insults directed at a person's sexuality are okay or not.

Personally, I wish people would be a little more creative with their insults, and not make them so RL-like. If you want to play a homophobic character, good for you, but you really shouldn't expect people to join you in ridiculing the 'prison bitch' elf or whatever. If most of the population doesn't really care about homosexuality, then I'd like to see less insults directed at a person's sexuality. It just doesn't make sense... It'd be like some one in RL insulting you for being a 'too-tall'. Just doesn't really fit.

On a side note, I think it would interesting to have majorally different views on sexuality in the city-states. I.e., anyone can fuck any one else in Allanak, but in Tuluk, homosexuals and pediaphiles are stoned to death.

Just a thought.

[Anonymous]

...but in Tuluk, homosexuals and pediaphiles are stoned to death.

Probably too close to reality.  At least racism in this game is based on imaginary racial boundaries.

[Sanvean]

We've said before that homosexuality is accepted and not particularly noteworthy on Zalanthas. I can add this into the docs. What strikes me is that every time this topic comes up, there is heated debate caused (imo) by people bringing their RL beliefs into it. Going to lock this thread, and say, as I have said before, that gaybashing is uncool and doesn't belong on these boards.