Discuss pending change to flee from Staff Announcements

[Qzzrbl]

Not really. It won't change my characters at all. They either would be that way or not. The code doesn't decide my character's personality. It has the potential to  be very oocly frustrating, especially for newer players, that is all. Some players are strictly offpeak. Some of us find ourselves stuck in periods where the only time we can play is offpeak. Things shouldn't be made so difficult that only peak players get to have any action. New players who like to see action, shouldn't have to play for several years before they do everything just right and have a little luck to keep a character alive for a while. We forget how difficult this game is for new people and need to remember that if we want to playerbase to continue to grow. It is really only a minority of veterans that post threads about it not being hard enough. That doesn't mean most of the playerbase agrees.

Avoiding territories filled with dangerous beasts in the wastes isn't all that hard, and finding skilled people to travel with off-peak isn't all that hard either (Unless you're in that -reaaaalllly off-peak check-it-out-three-players-on off-peak).

This change wouldn't really limit anyone's "action", unless that action involves running full-tilt into dangerous areas of the gameworld alone.... In which case, they'd do it alone anyhow since they're so off-peak-- only change is that those dangerous areas of the gameworld would be as dangerous as they should be.

::Edited to add:: And as far as new players? I'd rather they learn to treat dangerous stuff as it should be early on... Doesn't really steepen the learning curve all that much-- all the change will do is keep them from learning how to spam-flee through areas that only the suicidal would enter alone.

[Bacon]

I disagree. Dangerous stuff is as dangerous as it should be already. It doesn't need to be more dangerous. I have trouble finding ohter characters even just outside of peak times. I can't imagine how bad it is for way offpeak people. The solo game is part of the game it should not be disregarded just because it's not your thing.

[Qzzrbl]

I disagree. Dangerous stuff is as dangerous as it should be already. It doesn't need to be more dangerous.

A lone newbie trekking through gith lands relatively unscathed dangerous does not make.

[Bacon]

I disagree. Dangerous stuff is as dangerous as it should be already. It doesn't need to be more dangerous.

A lone newbie trekking through gith lands relatively unscathed dangerous does not make.

Tell that to the piles of dead newbie pcs I'm always finding not far from civilized areas.

[Qzzrbl]

I disagree. Dangerous stuff is as dangerous as it should be already. It doesn't need to be more dangerous.

A lone newbie trekking through gith lands relatively unscathed dangerous does not make.

Tell that to the piles of dead newbie pcs I'm always finding not far from civilized areas.

I'd bet money that most of those were suicides or shoddy internet connections-- done it plenty of times myself.

Even landed some cool staff animations once... Was pretty cool.

[Jingo]

Not really. It won't change my characters at all. They either would be that way or not. The code doesn't decide my character's personality. It has the potential to  be very oocly frustrating, especially for newer players, that is all. Some players are strictly offpeak. Some of us find ourselves stuck in periods where the only time we can play is offpeak. Things shouldn't be made so difficult that only peak players get to have any action. New players who like to see action, shouldn't have to play for several years before they do everything just right and have a little luck to keep a character alive for a while. We forget how difficult this game is for new people and need to remember that if we want to playerbase to continue to grow. It is really only a minority of veterans that post threads about it not being hard enough. That doesn't mean most of the playerbase agrees.

Avoiding territories filled with dangerous beasts in the wastes isn't all that hard, and finding skilled people to travel with off-peak isn't all that hard either (Unless you're in that -reaaaalllly off-peak check-it-out-three-players-on off-peak).

This change wouldn't really limit anyone's "action", unless that action involves running full-tilt into dangerous areas of the gameworld alone.... In which case, they'd do it alone anyhow since they're so off-peak-- only change is that those dangerous areas of the gameworld would be as dangerous as they should be.

::Edited to add:: And as far as new players? I'd rather they learn to treat dangerous stuff as it should be early on... Doesn't really steepen the learning curve all that much-- all the change will do is keep them from learning how to spam-flee through areas that only the suicidal would enter alone.

Traveling alone is always dangerous. I'm worried about the forty day veteran with an escort, doing what they always did till now. Low defense and no flee skill will be a death sentence if three or more dangerous mobs attack you. Or if just one ubermob attacks you.

[Armaddict]

...the flee skill needs this.  It needs to be there.  I'm betting that after a period of time doing what most people do, and sparring, the difference will be much smaller aside from in circumstances where you're already expecting danger.  People will probably just get used to breaking combat earlier, which kind of makes sense.

Again, the main qualm I have with this is that it changes the dynamic of the flee skill altogether, and pretty much everyone should have the ability to improve at it to some degree.  It's not a 'choose the right subguild' issue, because you're essentially saying 'Choose the right subguild to be able to run away', which is outright foolish.  Spread out the flee skill, set its caps, but insure everyone can get to -some- level of security, small level that it may be.

[musashi]

I agree with Armaddict. Good change but I hope flee becomes a low cap, yet had by all skill. Like shield use, two-handed, and dual wield.

[Bacon]

 People will probably just get used to breaking combat earlier, which kind of makes sense.

More likely is they will just train the fuck out of flee to avoid worrying about it and go back to playing exactly as before. In addition, certain subguilds will likely become very popular.

[Romy]

This worries me some. I'm a new player and don't understand how combat works all that well. It moves too fast for me to read and I get lost.

Now I have to worry about these players or animals getting another attack at me - this really worries me if I'm playing some sort of character who doesn't have this "flee" skill.

[Cutthroat]

Typically, if your guild doesn't have the flee skill, your guild's strength isn't in toe-to-toe fighting and tactical retreating. Exploiting those strengths that your PC does have would still be possible.

[musashi]

The guilds who don't have the flee skill are typically the guilds that need it the most ... because they're the ones being hunted down at every turn 

[Armaddict]

Typically, if your guild doesn't have the flee skill, your guild's strength isn't in toe-to-toe fighting and tactical retreating. Exploiting those strengths that your PC does have would still be possible.

With this change, this is no longer about a 'tactical retreat'.  That's what it was before.  Now it's about being able to get away from close quarters without getting hit, which -typically- speaking, is even more suited to those classes without it now than the ones that actually have it (in which case it would be another skill of theirs that prevents them from being hit.)

Essentially, there are very few in the entire known who would be in a position of being 'unable to learn' how to not get hit while breaking out of combat.

[Romy]

Typically, if your guild doesn't have the flee skill, your guild's strength isn't in toe-to-toe fighting and tactical retreating. Exploiting those strengths that your PC does have would still be possible.

Are you talking to me? I guess you are. I haven't played long but I can think of one guild that doesn't have this skill but should.

I wasn't talking about other strengths, just about flee. I'm just worried that if I play a fighter I will die in a bad way. I've had at least one bad death before that should not have happened. I don't want another.  

[Cutthroat]

Typically, if your guild doesn't have the flee skill, your guild's strength isn't in toe-to-toe fighting and tactical retreating. Exploiting those strengths that your PC does have would still be possible.

Are you talking to me? I guess you are. I haven't played long but I can think of one guild that doesn't have this skill but should.

I wasn't talking about other strengths, just about flee. I'm just worried that if I play a fighter I will die in a bad way. I've had at least one bad death before that should not have happened. I don't want another. 

I was responding to the last few posts lamenting that several guilds don't have flee (yours included).

My general point is that guilds that don't have flee, have other skills to make up for the lack, and we all have the ability to team up with other PCs with other skills. So in the end, even if other guilds don't get flee, they aren't so disadvantaged to the point of becoming unplayable - there is just a greater focus on utilizing their own unique skills, as well as the unique skills of others.

And if it's possible to dodge the attack like any other, it is likely still possible to flee and have your attacker swing and miss at you as you run, even if you don't have the skill.

[Armaddict]

Typically, if your guild doesn't have the flee skill, your guild's strength isn't in toe-to-toe fighting and tactical retreating. Exploiting those strengths that your PC does have would still be possible.

Are you talking to me? I guess you are. I haven't played long but I can think of one guild that doesn't have this skill but should.

I wasn't talking about other strengths, just about flee. I'm just worried that if I play a fighter I will die in a bad way. I've had at least one bad death before that should not have happened. I don't want another.  

I was responding to the last few posts lamenting that several guilds don't have flee (yours included).

My general point is that guilds that don't have flee, have other skills to make up for the lack, and we all have the ability to team up with other PCs with other skills. So in the end, even if other guilds don't get flee, they aren't so disadvantaged to the point of becoming unplayable - there is just a greater focus on utilizing their own unique skills, as well as the unique skills of others.

And if it's possible to dodge the attack like any other, it is likely still possible to flee and have your attacker swing and miss at you as you run, even if you don't have the skill.

Was just thinking after my last post...I don't really know the mechanics of this function at this time, so I'm just purely speculating.  Combine that with that the 'tactical withdrawal' is -still- part of the flee skill, and...well...I see two very distinct sides of the flee skill, each that makes sense, but one that seems to be more logical with everyone, and the other with those who are more...ordered...in their way of combat.

Hopefully, there are no penalties given to the one fleeing aside from the free attacks.  Free attacks with no bonus given would be more understandable, like last swipes given in that single step before they establish distance and turn away to reach full speed.  I, however, have always viewed the 'YOU CAN'T ESCAPE' message from fleeing to mean that you could not establish that separation.  Those guilds without the skill, I do not see them as retarded and granting a combat advantage when they try to run...just that they are not a 'disciplined' type who can keep track of everything going on around them while they use that opportunity to escape.

Still think the solution lies in giving the flee skill to almost everyone, but maintaining different skill caps.

Edited to add:  On a side note...hopefully this is not what is required to be considered to have the flee skill.  This should be maxxed. 

[brytta.leofa]

I disagree. Dangerous stuff is as dangerous as it should be already. It doesn't need to be more dangerous.

A lone newbie trekking through gith lands relatively unscathed dangerous does not make.

The bad and misleading thing about Arm's dangerousness is that you can do the same stupid thing a dozen times in a row and come out okay.  Then on repeat #12--KABAAM.

[Twilight]

A lone newbie trekking through gith lands relatively unscathed dangerous does not make.

Ummmmm.  I doubt a newbie can do this routinely.  An experienced player with a new character can do this.

[RogueGunslinger]

• It only really concerns me with very big critters where 1 hit is survivable and 2 hits aren't.
  
  

If you can get hit by a creature that can two hit you you shouldn't be fighting long enough for the first hit. You should be fleeing immediately. And only incurring the first hit on a bad flee.

• I will hold you to the one hit.  So I expect that dual wield folks will not get a full round (both weapons) but only one hit.  Point for twohanders.

Pretty sure they get two

I can confirm this. [/list]

[Bacon]

If you can get hit by a creature that can two hit you you shouldn't be fighting long enough for the first hit. You should be fleeing immediately. And only incurring the first hit on a bad flee.

Sometimes they enter the room and attack before you can leave the room. Sometimes that hit reels you. Sometimes some of them follow that hit with an immediate bash. Sometimes you're lucky enough to survive long enough to recover from the bash and flee. This addition further increases the chances that such an encounter means your pc is dead through no wrong doing of your own. I think with this addition, npc movement delays need to be increased and delay from being bashed decreased. I don't believe we need to die to npcs more than people do already.

[Delirium]

I have to say that I have not recently (in the last few years, ever since NPC delay was introduced) run into the "unable to leave the room before X critter attacks" problem, with the exception of certain hidden and highly dangerous mobs... who are generally confined to specific areas which a wise person unable to handle them would merely avoid.

[Dar]

No more assassin/hunter pretending to be a ranger in the Byn/Kurac for me. The day we stumble on a lair of 5 spider/giths and instead of them all attacking someone who's trained to withstand assault, they'd attack the assassin. Before that was solved by either flee or rescue. Now flee will be totally and completely out of question.

[drunkendwarf]

Not a fan. 'Reel lock' was bad enough for an insta-death sentence on a hapless PC that had a nasty critter wander in. Combine that with this change, many deaths are going to result from being blindsided by NPC's that are sitting diagonally from you.
Or the half-giant that lumbers up, wielding one weapon in both hands, on a character that can't fight well. It pretty well guarantees that, so long as the half-giant manages to get a 'kill' command in, their target is going to die. Two handed damage is nasty enough, this just makes things all that much worse.

[Jeshin]

Now instead of assassin / hunter you can be warrior / slipknife!

[Naruto]

No more assassin/hunter pretending to be a ranger in the Byn/Kurac for me. The day we stumble on a lair of 5 spider/giths and instead of them all attacking someone who's trained to withstand assault, they'd attack the assassin. Before that was solved by either flee or rescue. Now flee will be totally and completely out of question.

Right! IMO everyone saying that this is so great a change as it is mostly plays the guilds with flee. This way it only adds to the deadliness of warriors. With his offense and defense bonus, including the new flee, a 10 day warrior would easily wipe the entire Rinth of all the sneaky people.