Discuss pending change to flee from Staff Announcements

[Morgenes]

Here ya go.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42567.0.html

[Aaron Goulet]

I love it.

[evilcabbage]

This will -really- make you think. I like it.

However, is it safe to ask the logic behind it? I'm just curious is all.

[Delirium]

I love it, or at least the concept of it. No more "ah if it starts kicking my ass I'll just run when I'm at 50% health".

However, flee seems like a rather difficult skill to "train up" as it were - despite frequently using it, it remains at a low level. Perhaps this should be looked at as well?

[Morgenes]

Many games have the idea of a parting shot on flee.  We've thought about it and decided that we think it fits our world theme and have gone ahead with it.

To Delirium's post, this will help with the skilling up of flee as well.  For the record, a request indicating that flee was hard to train up is what brought this to our attention, and so we are changing things to help.

[Delirium]

You rock! 

[Aaron Goulet]

This will -really- make you think. I like it.

However, is it safe to ask the logic behind it? I'm just curious is all.

I imagine it's because, at present, fleeing is pretty easy, super-spammable, and the skill itself isn't worth much.  People will have to think more strategically about when to use flee with this change, as well as not wait until the last possible moment before doing so.  In addition, aggressors won't get shafted as much, and players will have an easier time dealing with those pesky fleeing critters.

Edit: Morgenes was faster than me.  Must be prowling the forums!

[Bacon]

Don't really care one way or another yet. I have a feeling it's going to create even more pc deaths in the early days of play and I don't think we really need things to be harder especially for new players.
The only thing this causes is people to flee even sooner than they already do or risk the parting shot killing your character. It really isn't any deeper than that as far as combat strategy goes. It also further increases the learning curve for combat pcs.

I do think that failing to avoid the parting shot during a flee attempt should count as a failure toward getting better at flee. I also thing that characters with lower agility should have less chance to get the parting shot. Half-giants and dwarves should have a harder time reacting to get off a parting shot vs humans and elves, etc.

[mattrious]

This is actually an amazing change. Brings quite a bit to the table in regards to combat strategy, etc. Kudos!

[evilcabbage]

Well! I like the change, then. Except...

If I flee from a half-giant at half my HP I might be in big doo doo.

A question, then, Morgenes:  Will your parry/shield use skills come into play to assist you? Or is this your flee versus them, period?

[mattrious]

Well! I like the change, then. Except...

If I flee from a half-giant at half my HP I might be in big doo doo.

A question, then, Morgenes:  Will your parry/shield use skills come into play to assist you? Or is this your flee versus them, period?

It is my experience that if you're fighting a half-giant, you're already knee-deep in big doo doo. Though, I think those criminals who get caught by soldier NPCs will not try to spam flee all the way to the jail now.

[Bacon]

I doubt they'd get the parting shot if they're fleeing a subdue since combat isn't initiated. Otherwise, you could just subdue someone and get a free shot every time they break free before grabbing them again.

[X-D]

Edit...nevermind, I missed one of the uses of "you" in the announcement.

Otherwise, I'm pretty Eh about the change other then if it makes it easier to improve the skill...that of course is a bonus.

[roughneck]

A big advantage to high strength fighters unless agility will give a bonus somewhere. Either way its going to make pk easier and play much more tricky for any new players who don't know where the aggressive groups of mobs live. Assuming the flee-er has the chance to use defensive skills, this change makes warriors more valuable for their defensive ability right out of the box. Overall a good change I think.

[Dakota]

Staff -- Didn't see this thread b4 I asked in the "Ask the Staff" portion of the GDB...

But my question is..

Learning flee as it is, is already very hard and clearly a number of things you do to "train" it, don't help. I hope that rather than adding in an additional way to "learn" the skill.. the other methods will be fixed accordingly.

[Morgenes]

I do think that failing to avoid the parting shot during a flee attempt should count as a failure toward getting better at flee. I also thing that characters with lower agility should have less chance to get the parting shot. Half-giants and dwarves should have a harder time reacting to get off a parting shot vs humans and elves, etc.

That would makes sense, wouldn't it?

A question, then, Morgenes:  Will your parry/shield use skills come into play to assist you? Or is this your flee versus them, period?

The flee check is to avoid them getting a swing at you.  The swing is measured as it always has been and will be.

A big advantage to high strength fighters unless agility will give a bonus somewhere. Either way its going to make pk easier and play much more tricky for any new players who don't know where the aggressive groups of mobs live. Assuming the flee-er has the chance to use defensive skills, this change makes warriors more valuable for their defensive ability right out of the box.

See above, I agree that agility should play a part in this kind of a code change.  Also, see the next question where I mention that the combat resolution is the same as it has been.

Learning flee as it is, is already very hard and clearly a number of things you do to "train" it, don't help. I hope that rather than adding in an additional way to "learn" the skill.. the other methods will be fixed accordingly.

The other method was pretty broken IMO, it was not changed, but it rarely was even a consideration (hence people rarely gaining).  This code change provides a much more meaningful skill test.

[Akoto]

I do agree with the above assertions that this will probably lead to many more early deaths. It will also make skilling up independent (or low clan population) fighters quite a bit more difficult. This is to say nothing of those guilds which do not get flee, but nevertheless face dangerous situations worthy of a quick retreat.

That said, if it's dealt with in a logical way, accounting for the player's abilities and particular circumstances, I could see it. A 'gicker who can run in a blur or flee into the sky, for example, should get mucho modifiers. Elves should be good at giving out and avoiding these flee maneuvers, considering their agility. That sort of thing.

[Bacon]

Question: Will a failed flee possibly give them the parting shot chance -and- still keep you in combat so you have to try to do it again? Or does the parting shot chance only happen on a successful escape?

[Dar]

Right now, if you do fail a flee. It will tell you something like, "Panic! You cant get away" and wont let you leave the room.

Will that still happen? And if it does happen, will it incur a parting shot as well?

Say someone fails a flee, he gets hit by a parting shot 'and' fails to flee the actual room.

[stark]

This might change how some folks spar. I like it. I'm not a fan of people staying in a sparring ring til the last possible second to indicate their scrotum size. Of course, I will no longer spar with a dwarf!

[Morgenes]

Question: Will a failed flee possibly give them the parting shot chance -and- still keep you in combat so you have to try to do it again? Or does the parting shot chance only happen on a successful escape?

A parting shot only happens on a successful escape.  Getting hit by a parting shot will only stop your movement if you die from it.

Right now, if you do fail a flee. It will tell you something like, "Panic! You cant get away" and wont let you leave the room.

Will that still happen? And if it does happen, will it incur a parting shot as well?

Say someone fails a flee, he gets hit by a parting shot 'and' fails to flee the actual room.

Yes, if for some reason you aren't able to escape, you will still get the 'Panic! You can't get away'.  It will NOT incur a parting shot.

[Dakota]

Learning flee as it is, is already very hard and clearly a number of things you do to "train" it, don't help. I hope that rather than adding in an additional way to "learn" the skill.. the other methods will be fixed accordingly.

The other method was pretty broken IMO, it was not changed, but it rarely was even a consideration (hence people rarely gaining).  This code change provides a much more meaningful skill test.

So understanding this; the "commonly used" method to train flee will stay the same, any alternate methods will not change (keeping to their semi-broken state).. but we'll have the added bonus of failing in a flee test to see if the PC does or does not get hit.. correct?

And what about fleeing in specific directions?

[Morgenes]

So understanding this; the "commonly used" method to train flee will stay the same, any alternate methods will not change (keeping to their semi-broken state).. but we'll have the added bonus of failing in a flee test to see if the PC does or does not get hit.. correct?

I'm not going to discuss specific instances of how you can train skills beyond what the docs say, which is to fail at them.  Take that for what you will.

And what about fleeing in specific directions?

Fleeing in specific directions has not changed.

[Yam]

Will the parting shot contribute to the combat lag of the combatant who made it?

[Zoan]

Will we be able to use it on mobs which run away when they reach a certain amount of damage? Or is it only a player thing.