The Reveal Skill/command

[Jeshin]

I'm sure we've all been in a situation where one PC can see a hidden PC/NPC and the other couldn't. Is there a reason that it's impossible to 'reveal' these PCs without tripping crimcode in most instance. Something like reveal shadow or point shadow would make a lot of sense.

[allieday1]

That would be a nice code. Can't count the times i wish I could just bump something into view and not have to attack or hard code to get it from hiding

[muddy]

but if your in a tavern shouldn't the RP be that they are just blended in amongst all the other VNPCs, or what is the proper RP? If you could point them out to others that don't see him/her wouldn't it be like you saying "look don't you see that average looking guy sitting with all the other average looking folks?

[Gunnerblaster]

Well, if it happens in a tavern or something, easiest way is to start a brawl. Non-crim, coded effects that should break the target's hidden status.

[Thunkkin]

The long-nosed, waspish man exclaims in Sirihish,
  "There's someone under my bed! Right there! Don't you see him?!!!"

The tall, big half-giant says in Sirihish, rumbling as he peers under the bed,
  "No."

Panicking now, the long-nosed, waspish man says in Sirihish, waving his arms,
  "But he's RIGHT. THERE."

Helpfully as she peers under the bed, too, the cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman says in Sirihish, breathily,
  "I don't see anything either, Overseer. But I'd get under your bed ... if you wanted me to ..."

The cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman flutters her eyelashes.

The long-nosed, waspish man roles his eyes.

You Notice: A strange shadow draws a wicked-looking dagger.

The long-nosed, waspish man says in Sirihish, with a resigned sigh,
  "Well, that about wraps it up for this merchant. Serves me right for hiring warriors."

[musashi]

I would like this idea myself.

[roughneck]

I think it's best left up to rp.

If you're hiding and someone is calling you out and pointing you out to a big group of people and you don't make yourself unhidden or promptly high-tail it out of the area, you suck.

There's always the kill command, that makes people unhidden in a hurry.

Or give them a heavy bag of rocks, I bet being encumbered makes hiding difficult (just kidding Nyr).

If something like this went in I would want a nice long delay so you couldn't spam 'reveal' the way you can spam 'look' when you're having difficulty passing your scan.

I would rather see everyone get journeyman scan.  At least then you can only get shadow-pwnd by someone with a bit of skill, and warriors would be able to hunt some creatures which like to hide.  I doubt that would ever happen though.

[Delirium]

I'd want this for NPCs more than I'd want it for PCs.

"Yeah, Sarge, there's a tembo right there. Yeah, right there. No, right THERE."

Have a chance of failure (NPC movement?) and we're all good.

[Taven]

Well, if it happens in a tavern or something, easiest way is to start a brawl. Non-crim, coded effects that should break the target's hidden status.

I don't think this is true.

[musashi]

but if your in a tavern shouldn't the RP be that they are just blended in amongst all the other VNPCs, or what is the proper RP? If you could point them out to others that don't see him/her wouldn't it be like you saying "look don't you see that average looking guy sitting with all the other average looking folks?

The thing about this is that no one really knows how to react to spotting hidden characters because the information you get is very very limited.

You see a shadowy blur.

Ok ... is that someone using ranger-style hide tactics in a tavern, crouching down behind the coat rack and trying to blend in via his own cloak?

Is is someone trying to blend into the crowd, constantly shifting from place to place, imitating the activities of the other patrons?

Is it someone who's levitating four feet off the ground protected by an invisibility spell?

Who knows.  

[Tisiphone]

New want, tied to this (and maybe already true, but should be explicit): change ldesc should not break hide.

[Jeshin]

  Revealing hidden people solely by RP is fine in theory. Just like robbing them solely with RP is fine in theory. I've sat bleeding in the sanctuary talking to and pointing at a hidden assassin who had just knifed me. Everyone was like 'oh that sucker must be crazy!' Even though, clearly I was indicating the location of this hidden player. They remained hidden.

Perhaps it wouldn't have to break their hide but use your scan check to momentarily reveal them in an echo. This would indicate to people that there is in fact someone there, but not remove their hide completely.

The keen-eyed man reveals the drab stormcloaked man!

Any suggestions relating to some way of indicating to non-scan players that something sneaky is going on. Which also gives them some form of reaction would be helpful as well.

[Gunnerblaster]

Lol. Kiss finally has a use!

Code Select Expand

>K shadow

You kiss the dark-haired, squinty-eyed elf, effectively breaking his hide!

[bcw81]

I think this skill should be left to the players to RP, and never be hardcoded.

Also, Jeshin, point number 2 is already in game with LOOK.

[Ouroboros]

New want, tied to this (and maybe already true, but should be explicit): change ldesc should not break hide.

Perhaps the drop code could be Frankenstein'ed with the hide code, to accept arguments...

>hide
>*a shadow is here*

>hide (sneaking up to some crates)
>Sneaking up to some crates, the sneaky guy vanishes.
>*a shadow is here*

>hide behind a crate (sneaking up to some crates)
>Sneaking up to some crates, the sneaky guy vanishes.
>*a shadow is here, behind a crate*

While not directly linked to a reveal, it would certainly be helpful to know where the shadow is hiding so if you wanted to rp revealing them you could actually point in some direction and hope they respect the rp.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I actually think reveal is probably a good idea. It's realistic. If somebody in real life points out something to me which was previously hidden or unnoticed, I now can see it. I don't have to find it myself.

Ever go Easter Egg Hunting?

I'm down for reveal.

[musashi]

Ever go Easter Egg Hunting?

I can't argue with this  

But if we're gonna do it, I say we do it big!

> reveal blur (reveals the hidden person to the entire room)

> reveal blur amos (discreetly reveals the hidden person to amos only, with a chance others will notice as well based on their watch. The chance goes up considerably if they are currently watching you)

[Bacon]

I seem to remember the search command (or something similar) used to be able to reveal hidden characters a long time ago. Was this taken out?

[Potaje]

I think some kind of means to reveal hidden characters/mobs is a good idea.

I support the notion as logical.

No, I don't trust pc's to adhere to showing themselves due to someone rping spotting them and calling them out and so, it should be hard coded, with a short to moderate delay, not a long one, or with command emotes.

[Nyr]

I think it unlikely.  Methods for detecting hidden things exist.  Rely on the PCs that can do so, it gives them (and you) something else to do.

[Potaje]

I think it unlikely.  Methods for detecting hidden things exist.  Rely on the PCs that can do so, it gives them (and you) something else to do.

Its not about detecting them, its about those characters that can detect them, making it possible to draw what they detect out for others. Enhancing the function of the existing skill set.

IMHO

[edited to add] With out physical conflict, i.e. with out having to attack the hidden person. (mostly good for in city situations, but applicable to the wider game world.)

[Marauder Moe]

I think it unlikely.  Methods for detecting hidden things exist.  Rely on the PCs that can do so, it gives them (and you) something else to do.

If I'm understanding the idea right, you still rely on those PCs.  It just that those PCs would be more useful in that they could, in turn, rely on other PCs to (codedly) interact with the hidden quarry rather than only being able to do it themselves.

Thumbs up from me.

[Nyr]

I understand the idea, but I do think it is unlikely that this would be implemented for the reasons indicated.  There are some other downsides to it as well.

This would extend a skill that one PC has to other PCs that do not have the skill--akin to following a ranger or other person with direction sense, except in this respect, the bonus is against a particular PC, singling them out.  In addition, it removes advantages for sneaky guilds without regard for roleplay they may be doing.  Frankly, I could see this being abused far more by those that already use scan to unrealistic or annoying effect (mid-conversation at a bar, but they decide to stop in order to stand and scan the room).  What's to stop a PC from abusing the reveal command to just nix any sneaky RP going on?  At least with the current system, a scan-tastic PC will just scare off a sneaky PC.  With the new command, you'd have them identified far more quickly.

In addition, it seems to be all about "detection without invoking crim-code" in this thread.  Why do you want to auto-unhide the hidden guy?  What is he doing that is so bad?

[Tisiphone]

Maybe instead of automatic success, success on a reveal check could massively penalize the hide skill of the hidden person and force a reroll, effective only for a short time? This way reveal wouldn't be a 'sure' thing on success.

After all, I've been in both situations, and I bet so has everyone else here. I've pointed something out to someone who saw it immediately afterwards, and I've been pointed to something that the pointer thought obvious, only to continue to have trouble seeing it, much to the exasperation of my companion.

Either way, the reveal command should definitely be an opposed roll vs. hide, with a lower skillcap than scan.

[valeria]

If it was something like 'reveal X to Y' that allowed the person who could see the hidden person/animal/whatever to point it out to another person in the room.  It wouldn't necessarily have to unhide them to the whole room for open identification.  And if it echoed to the person being pointed out so that they could notice it and haul ass if they so desired, I don't see how it would allow a scantastic PC to nix all the sneaky RP going on.  The sneaky would still be sneaky, they would still have whatever chances to sneak up on the scantastic PC as they would otherwise have, but it would however allow that scantastic PC to point out a danger to their otherwise super handicapped unscantastic guard.

It would be useful in a couple of situations.  My merchant and her guard are hanging out in an apartment.  My merchant notices an assassin follow them us.  I could point them out to the guard instead of flying at them with my fists.  While the guard is looking where I am pointing, and can now see that there's a shadow that shouldn't be there, the assassin could hightail it or attack anyway.

My good hunter is trying to teach a bad hunter how to hunt.  I notice a sneaky critter and point them out to the bad hunter.  While the bad hunter is looking where I'm pointing, he can go after the critter without me having to attack it.

I don't understand how that would remove advantages for sneaky guilds without regard to the roleplay they might be doing.  The sneaky would have to come upon a person who can see them anyway, and then ignore that the person who can see them is pointing them out to someone else.  The sneaky could beat a hasty retreat in the face of someone who can obviously see them... instead of just ignoring that the merchant can see them, even though there is a guard there and the merchant is pointing right at them, knowing that codedly there is no way the guard would be able to target them anyway.  If the merchant pointing the sneaky out to the guard actually had an effect, and the guard wanted to invoke the crime code instead of the merchant, they could.

[Bacon]

Code Select Expand

> lo

A room, just a plain ass room. [NESW]

*a strange shadow*
The tall, muscular man is standing here.
The short, skinny woman is sitting at an agafari table here.

>reveal shadow muscular

(Echo to you:)

Code Select Expand

You point out a strange shadow to the tall, muscular man.

(Echo to the tall, muscular man:) -If successful.-

Code Select Expand

The scanly, scanner man points out a strange shadow to you.

-If it fails.-

Code Select Expand

The scanly, scanner man gestures toward something, but you aren't sure what they're pointing at.

(If your reveal skill beats the hidden character's hide then they will be visible to the person you revealed them to for a period of time. The hidden person can try to hide again to nullify any reveal in effect on them.)

(Echo to the hidden sneaky person:)

Code Select Expand

The scanly, scanner man attempts to point you out to the tall, muscular man.

(Echo to the short, skinny woman or others in the room:)

Code Select Expand

The scanly, scanner man looks at the tall, muscular man and gestures toward something.

Give it only to those that already get the scan skill. Make it have a skill check vs. the hidden creature/person. Make it so that only one target can be revealed to a single second target.

[Nyr]

Code Select Expand

say (pointing at ~shadow)Hey, what's that?

there, I put it in the game for you, retroactively. 

Coding in this mess seems like a lot of work for little benefit in addition to more policing of people; still don't see a reason why we would want to do this.  Why do you want to un-hide the hidden guy (in any fashion, to any single person or to everyone)?  What is he doing that is so bad?

[brytta.leofa]

Why do you want to un-hide the hidden guy (in any fashion, to any single person or to everyone)?  What is he doing that is so bad?

He's in our apartment and that's creepy.

[Bacon]

Code Select Expand

say (pointing at ~shadow)Hey, what's that?

there, I put it in the game for you, retroactively.  

Coding in this mess seems like a lot of work for little benefit in addition to more policing of people; still don't see a reason why we would want to do this.  Why do you want to un-hide the hidden guy (in any fashion, to any single person or to everyone)?  What is he doing that is so bad?

Why should a hidden person, once their location is pointed out to someone else, remain hidden to them without having to move to a different hiding spot?

"See that guy over there crouched behind the barrel?"

"Nope, it's no good. Still can't see what you're pointing at even though it's right there and you're pointing at them."

Of course people would have to use it realistically. Anything can be abused if someone wants to and any abuse can be reported via the request tool and handled by our exceptional and evenhanded staff. I've also experienced the situation where you are chasing someone with hide, the only pc with you that can see them...can't do anything other than -attack- them, and the others who could try and subdue them, can't see them to do so. It leaves them in the situation where the choice is, kill them, or just let them go. This would open up more options.

[My 2 sids]

Why should a hidden person, once their location is pointed out to someone else, remain hidden to them?

Okay, if someone is hiding like a foot in front of another's face and still coded as hidden... that's poor RP/ code abuse.   But, what about this scenario?  Hasn't this ever happened to anyone??

"Honey, do you know where the TV remote is?"  "It's right there where you left it."  "Where??"  "Right there, in the family room!"  "I'm still not seeing it!!"  "OMG I'm pointing right at it!!"  "Well, I still can't see it!!!"  <walking over, pointing to obvious location> "Right here!"  "Oooooh."

Or

"Heh,  check out that guy over there."  "Where?"  "There.  The one with the hat."  "And glasses?"  "No."   "Where?"  "Yellow shirt"  "I see three guys in yellow shirts, no one has a hat."  "Well, he was right there but you took so long, you missed him."

Or

"There's your ball."  "Where?"  "Right there, by the tree."  "No, that's a leaf."  "Pretty sure it's your golf ball..."  "That's a brown leaf."  "Yes... and next to it?  "I don't see anything." etc. etc. etc.

[Bacon]

Sure, that that shouldn't be the case -all- the time. The way the code works currently, it is. As suggested, if it were a skill that can fail then both situations would be possible outcomes. Reveal fails to beat their hide? Then they can't tell what you're pointing at. It succeeds, then you see what they are trying to point out to you.

[Nyr]

Why should a hidden person, once their location is pointed out to someone else, remain hidden to them without having to move to a different hiding spot?

Code Select Expand


The scanning dude is here.
The non-scanning dude is here.
A strange shadow is here, hiding.  (hidden dude)

The scanning dude says, in sirihish,
"Hey, what're you doing over there?"

You notice (or don't notice):  A hidden dude's eyes widen as he glances your way, drink in hand.
You notice (or don't notice):  A hidden dude eases away from his current position near the bar and makes his way past a clump of patrons there.


or maybe

Code Select Expand


You notice (or don't notice):  A hidden dude heads out of the tavern.
You notice (or don't notice):  A hidden dude returns into the tavern wearing a different colored cloak, heading in behind a heavyset woman.

There, he moved, and is still hidden.

The point here is that this assumes quite a bit on the part of the hidden person; I for one would rather see hiding/hidden folks RP more appropriately and those that notice them to RP more appropriately.  Adding more tools to detect them and point them out only serves to make this more and more about code than RP.

edited to add another example and to clarify.

[Bacon]

Right, that's not the situation I have a problem with though. I'd rather not have the only options (as stated above) be: a) Kill the sneaky person you're chasing. or b) Just let them go. Having it possible for an option somewhere in between would be nice.

[Nyr]

You do have another option, available within existing code.

Code Select Expand

say (pointing at ~shadow)Hey, what's that?

or a:

Code Select Expand

say (peering over at ~shadow)Hmm, could've sworn I saw something...

or a

Code Select Expand

say (frown lines etched into his face as he aims beady-black eyes into the desert expanse at ~shadow)I say, mate, I bet we've got ourselves a raptor.
say (dying horribly)Clever girl.


I know it's not new shiny code (it's just meshing of existing code), but it doesn't force the hidden guy (or gal, let's be equal opportunity hiders) to be revealed to anyone but those with an existing ability (scan) subject to its own checks, and it still lets people know that something is up. 

[Bacon]

That doesn't solve the issue. Not sure if we're on the same page. The only way for those without scan to interact with them, is for those with scan to attack them so that others can interact with them at all. Even if they icly don't want to harm them but just catch them. It forces people to do something OOC because of the code restrictions. Either attack them, when that's not what they want to do or let them go and do nothing when that is also not what they are looking to do.

[Nyr]

The issue being what, exactly?

[Bacon]

Just edited my post to explain further.

[Nyr]

You're correct, we are not on the same page.  I believe that if you include something in an emote, say, tell, talk, hemote, semote, etc., that's interaction.

[bcw81]

If you don't want to attack them, and you don't want to subdue/kick/bash/etc. them, then why exactly do you -need- to point them out? Are you going to go into a bar and yell and point at some random person melding with the crowd?

[Bacon]

If you don't want to attack them, and you don't want to subdue/kick/bash/etc. them, then why exactly do you -need- to point them out? Are you going to go into a bar and yell and point at some random person melding with the crowd?

I didn't say we might not want to subdue them for questioning with no intent to kill. Just that we didn't want to have to attack them.


Just because I don't think people read it:

I've also experienced the situation where you are chasing someone with hide, the only pc with you that can see them...can't do anything other than -attack- them, and the others who could try and subdue them, can't see them to do so. It leaves them in the situation where the choice is, kill them, or just let them go. This would open up more options.

[Bacon]

You're correct, we are not on the same page.  I believe that if you include something in an emote, say, tell, talk, hemote, semote, etc., that's interaction.

If they are hidden and you don't have scan you can't do any of those things and include them in it. Therefore, even with what you are saying, if you don't have scan you can't interact with them unless the person with scan attacks them to bring them out of hiding.

[bcw81]

So have the person who can see him try to subdue him?

[Marauder Moe]

If you don't want to attack them, and you don't want to subdue/kick/bash/etc. them, then why exactly do you -need- to point them out?

So that my large, muscular (but not particularly perceptive) friend can attack/subdue/kick/bash them.  

Looking at them seems like a viable option too.

[Bacon]

So have the person who can see him try to subdue him?

Very few pcs, if any have both scan -and- subdue.

[Nyr]

You're correct, we are not on the same page.  I believe that if you include something in an emote, say, tell, talk, hemote, semote, etc., that's interaction.

If they are hidden and you don't have scan you can't do any of those things and include them in it.

Nor are you entitled to.  That is the point I'm making here.  

If they're hidden, and you don't have scan, you won't notice anything and you aren't missing anything.
If they're hidden, and you DO have scan, you may notice them and can possibly do something about it if you'd like, like include them in a command that allows emotes.  Or, like, look at them.

[Bacon]

Okay so just have the scanner attack them. Gotcha.

[bcw81]

So have the person who can see him try to subdue him?

Very few pcs, if any have both scan -and- subdue.

Every PC can use subdue - With or without the skill. If you try and miss, the big guy can try afterwards.

[Nyr]

Okay so just have the scanner attack them. Gotcha.

You do have another option, available within existing code.

Code Select Expand

say (pointing at ~shadow)Hey, what's that?

or a:

Code Select Expand

say (peering over at ~shadow)Hmm, could've sworn I saw something...

or a

Code Select Expand

say (frown lines etched into his face as he aims beady-black eyes into the desert expanse at ~shadow)I say, mate, I bet we've got ourselves a raptor.
say (dying horribly)Clever girl.


I know it's not new shiny code (it's just meshing of existing code), but it doesn't force the hidden guy (or gal, let's be equal opportunity hiders) to be revealed to anyone but those with an existing ability (scan) subject to its own checks, and it still lets people know that something is up. 

At this point I am wondering if you are ignoring reason because you don't like the answer you were given, or just not getting the point.  One of those is okay, and I'm happy to explain the point.  Communication commands are not attacks.  This is not exactly what the OP wants or what others have suggested here.  We don't always do what people want when they suggest new coded commands.  This is an explanation of something that achieves some of the underlying desires here using existing code.  It isn't new code, so no, it is not what the OP and some others want.  It doesn't transfer one's ability to scan into an ability to outright reveal people, no.  A couple other staffers and I believe at the time of this writing that reveal as suggested isn't feasible, and in addition, it isn't something that I think we want to do.  It is possible it could get reviewed at any point and implemented in some fashion, but it seems to me to be unlikely, which is why I don't want to get anyone's hopes up about a cool idea.  I'm just one staffer here, sharing some opinions, but that comes after having seen lots of code get implemented over the years and having a hand in some of it myself from time to time.  It's not often that a code idea shared on the forum gets a stamp of approval or denial by a dedicated coding staffer.  If you want that stamp every time, that's an unrealistic expectation.  Us non-coding staffers are your next best thing, as we've been involved in the majority of the topics on the front page of this forum.

Being told "no" isn't fun sometimes.  Being told "you can use this other method already" doesn't make that other method implausible or impossible, though.  Not liking that other method doesn't mean it ceases to exist as an option for other people.  I understand that you don't like it and would prefer a different answer, but you should at least acknowledge that the alternative is an option in reality (even if you wouldn't do this yourself).

[Synthesis]

I think this is pretty much a non-issue anyway, in PvP terms, because the only PCs scan will actually pick up are total noobs.  (exceptions for half-giant sneaks and various sorts of magick).  If you can spot the guy with scan, chances are any fresh-out-of-the-box warrior will be able to rip his head off and shit down his neck.  Chances are also high that it's completely harmless, because all his other skills will be just as crappy as his hide skill.

That's my totally metagaming analysis, anyway.  Yes, I'm aware there are other exceptions to this general observation.  You don't have to point them out.

[Qzzrbl]

Guys, guys, guys.... Guys.... Check it.

The long-nosed, waspish man exclaims in Sirihish,
  "There's someone under my bed! Right there! Don't you see him?!!!"

The tall, big half-giant says in Sirihish, rumbling as he peers under the bed,
  "No."

Panicking now, the long-nosed, waspish man says in Sirihish, waving his arms,
  "But he's RIGHT. THERE."

Helpfully as she peers under the bed, too, the cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman says in Sirihish, breathily,
  "Weeeellllllll shit...."

The cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

The tall, big half-giant guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

You Notice: A strange shadow looks apprehensive as all hell at all of the competent guards guarding his mark.

You Notice: A strange shadow stealthily moves west.

[Bacon]

Being told "you can use this other method already" doesn't make that other method implausible or impossible, though.  Not liking that other method doesn't mean it ceases to exist as an option for other people.  I understand that you don't like it and would prefer a different answer, but you should at least acknowledge that the alternative is an option in reality (even if you wouldn't do this yourself).

You seem to think my problem is that I'm saying the scene can't be roleplayed -at all- without it. That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that:

"If I want somebody (who is any good at it) to grab a guy that I spot with my scan skill, I have to attack them (to bring them out of hiding) to allow that character to do so. Even if my intention is not to bring injury to them."
There is no way currently around that.

If this is how you think it should be, just say: "That's how we want it. If you want a non-scanner to target a hidden character then you have to have a scanner attack them to bring them out of hiding."

Again: I want an alternative to having to attack them in order to grab them.  Currently, if my objective is to apprehend them without hurting them. I have to hurt them to attempt to do so.

[Nyr]

Ok. No. We are not doing that. This is how we want it.

[bcw81]

Being told "you can use this other method already" doesn't make that other method implausible or impossible, though.  Not liking that other method doesn't mean it ceases to exist as an option for other people.  I understand that you don't like it and would prefer a different answer, but you should at least acknowledge that the alternative is an option in reality (even if you wouldn't do this yourself).

You seem to think my problem is that I'm saying the scene can't be roleplayed -at all- without it. That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that:

"If I want somebody (who is any good at it) to grab a guy that I spot with my scan skill, I have to attack them (to bring them out of hiding) to allow that character to do so. Even if my intention is not to bring injury to them."
There is no way currently around that.

If this is how you think it should be, just say: "That's how we want it. If you want a non-scanner to target a hidden character then you have to have a scanner attack them to bring them out of hiding."

Again: I want an alternative to having to attack them in order to grab them.  Currently, if my objective is to apprehend them without hurting them. I have to hurt them to attempt to do so.

I don't understand why you don't just, you know, try to apprehend them yourself? There has been plenty of times my "Guild-That-Does-Not-Have-Subdue" has subdued someone.

[Synthesis]

Guys, guys, guys.... Guys.... Check it.

The long-nosed, waspish man exclaims in Sirihish,
  "There's someone under my bed! Right there! Don't you see him?!!!"

The tall, big half-giant says in Sirihish, rumbling as he peers under the bed,
  "No."

Panicking now, the long-nosed, waspish man says in Sirihish, waving his arms,
  "But he's RIGHT. THERE."

Helpfully as she peers under the bed, too, the cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman says in Sirihish, breathily,
  "Weeeellllllll shit...."

The cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

The tall, big half-giant guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

You Notice: A strange shadow looks apprehensive as all hell at all of the competent guards guarding his mark.

You Notice: A strange shadow stealthily moves west.

There's a small problem with that scenario, that players of experienced warriors will probably notice.  Or not notice, as the case may be.

[Potaje]

I think it could be pointed out like this:

citizen with scan, not a soldier type, is noticing that a thief in the bar is casing people, but only noticed to him.

So the citizen (pc) wants to point out the fact to the warrior soldier at the bar (also pc) but can only emote (but the pc thief/ lucker does not for what ever reason step out of hiding once pointed out) and the soldier is left standing around like a jack ass, and the citizen (who lets say walks right up to the lurker type) has to drag the lurker out of the crowd (currently only viable with subdue/ kick/ bash/ klill) And gets what the fuck pawned by the militia npc for doing so.

Where as with reveal the pc citizen pushes aside the crowd heading quickly over to the luerker pc and draws the lurker out so the warrior soldeir or what have you can then do his job. What ever that may be from that point.

[Jeshin]

I think the staff understand the various incarnations of the reveal skill/command that are being asked for. While I think the code would be simple to put in, the balancing issue they seem concerned about may be the deciding factor. That being said, we've gotten several replies about the request. I think we can let it go and perhaps see it in Arm 2 or hope the staff discuss it at some secret staff summit.

[Saellyn]

I find it easy to sympathize with sneakies, sometimes.

There are very few safe places for them. Many times, crime is a deadly venture and you get killed over it no matter what happens, or what you stole. Especially in certain locales, crime is punished by death, period.

However, I find it hard to sympathize when certain players engage you in a conversation, then vanish without an emote only to appear half a second later -gutting- you where you stand because their skills allow them to do that. Or they vanish despite the fact that yes, you are talking to them, and now they're just gone and you're left looking like a moron.

Still, reveal has too much potential for abuse. So I see a sneaky guy, and I reveal him. What the fuck does that do? Everyone who hates sneakies will herald me as a hero for saving them from a guy who, for all we know, was sitting there minding his own business in the corner and just happened to be laying low, but I had the fucking audacity to walk up to him, grab him, shake him and go "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE INCONSPICUOUS MOTHERFUCKER!"

I think that's what staff wants to avoid.

[Taven]

Ok. No. We are not doing that. This is how we want it.

Given that this is the response, I'd like to remind people that you CAN always wish up. If there's ever a case where you feel the sneaky person isn't emoting and is hanging out in the same place, or that you REALLY need to point them out for some reason and have done role-play, staff can help. Sure, they might say that they won't for whatever reason (maybe they disagree that your need was strong enough or maybe they see the hidden emotes of the person and know he's moving around), but it can't hurt to ask. At least, it can't hurt to ask if you're polite and not a bother about it (don't wish up every time there's a strange shadow in the room, obviously).

[Chettaman]

Guys, guys, guys.... Guys.... Check it.

The long-nosed, waspish man exclaims in Sirihish,
  "There's someone under my bed! Right there! Don't you see him?!!!"

The tall, big half-giant says in Sirihish, rumbling as he peers under the bed,
  "No."

Panicking now, the long-nosed, waspish man says in Sirihish, waving his arms,
  "But he's RIGHT. THERE."

Helpfully as she peers under the bed, too, the cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman says in Sirihish, breathily,
  "Weeeellllllll shit...."

The cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

The tall, big half-giant guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

You Notice: A strange shadow looks apprehensive as all hell at all of the competent guards guarding his mark.

You Notice: A strange shadow stealthily moves west.

There's a small problem with that scenario, that players of experienced warriors will probably notice.  Or not notice, as the case may be.

teehee. You can't guard against what you can't see.

[Qzzrbl]

Guys, guys, guys.... Guys.... Check it.

The long-nosed, waspish man exclaims in Sirihish,
   "There's someone under my bed! Right there! Don't you see him?!!!"

The tall, big half-giant says in Sirihish, rumbling as he peers under the bed,
   "No."

Panicking now, the long-nosed, waspish man says in Sirihish, waving his arms,
   "But he's RIGHT. THERE."

Helpfully as she peers under the bed, too, the cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman says in Sirihish, breathily,
   "Weeeellllllll shit...."

The cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

The tall, big half-giant guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

You Notice: A strange shadow looks apprehensive as all hell at all of the competent guards guarding his mark.

You Notice: A strange shadow stealthily moves west.

There's a small problem with that scenario, that players of experienced warriors will probably notice.  Or not notice, as the case may be.

teehee. You can't guard against what you can't see.

Oh, right.... I forgot there weren't really any checks or balances against mastered stealth skills.

[Nyr]

teehee. You can't guard against what you can't see.

Oh, right.... I forgot there weren't really any checks or balances against mastered stealth skills.

[Qzzrbl]

lolololololol

That.... Oddly pretty much sizes up the issue.

[Celest]

I have to agree with Potjae's scenario and the other sentiments that Master Sneak (and I say this as someone who loves playing sneakies) sort of needs a reveal skill, for certain situations. Give it a long prior delay if you need, like crafting, so that it's balanced... but I do think that a lot of people just don't RP sneak/hide reasonably when spotted.

On the flip side, that's actually a good reason not to do it. I already see people assume any person that is sneaking/hiding about is a thief or someone nefarious, which smacks of guildsniffing and PCs being aware that the steal kill often comes paired with sneak/hide. I've actually seen PCs in the Gaj stand up and just start spamming hit at people who snuck in, to try and destealth them, with no RP or IC reason - which is sort of crazy given that it can also be considered "blending into a crowd." Needless to say it had consequences, but had the person they did that to not been so powerful, it would have probably just ruined someone's evening. Thiefy PCs already have to deal with too much stupidity when it comes to players doing wildly metagamey and OOC things to try and protect themselves.


If there's a concern of it limiting hide too much, why not make it based off of hide instead of scan, so that a PC who wants to reveal needs adequate scan to see them and adequate hide to reveal how they did it to everyone? Hide raises absurdly quick, so it wouldn't be that much of a limiting factor by itself, but by tying it to hide it would make a difference between revealing people in the city and revealing people in the wild, depending on one's guild.

[Nyr]

lolololololol

That.... Oddly pretty much sizes up the issue.

We're looking a step backward from revealing a hidden person with a command, and instead looking at how visibility and scan interact.

[Marauder Moe]

Could we also possibly take a look at how visibility and guard interact?   

[Morgenes]

Could we also possibly take a look at how visibility and guard interact?   

No, I think they work appropriately.

[Saellyn]

Summed up: Hide/sneak are unbalanced. So is the warriors ability to completely screw your day up if he's got any skill at all. Sneakies are (generally) not that great in melee combat, therefore they need the few advantages they have.

I echo that sentiment, I also echo the sentiment that I can't stand the way people abuse those skills all round, just because they have them mastered, but I don't think I've seen enough abuse to call it a problem at all. So, really, the issue here is "I want more advantages to balance the game out" where the answer is "Life isn't fair, therefore Armageddon isn't fair, therefore if you want to spot the guy pick a guild with scan skill."

[Heade]

Still, reveal has too much potential for abuse. So I see a sneaky guy, and I reveal him. What the fuck does that do? Everyone who hates sneakies will herald me as a hero for saving them from a guy who, for all we know, was sitting there minding his own business in the corner and just happened to be laying low, but I had the fucking audacity to walk up to him, grab him, shake him and go "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE INCONSPICUOUS MOTHERFUCKER!"

This.

[Armaddict]

Still, reveal has too much potential for abuse. So I see a sneaky guy, and I reveal him. What the fuck does that do? Everyone who hates sneakies will herald me as a hero for saving them from a guy who, for all we know, was sitting there minding his own business in the corner and just happened to be laying low, but I had the fucking audacity to walk up to him, grab him, shake him and go "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE INCONSPICUOUS MOTHERFUCKER!"

This.

Pretty much.  People come after you for having -hoods up- as is.  The second you use a stealth skill and people see you using it, you are automatically gibbed, guilty, and ge-fucked.  Just so I could keep using g's.

Yes, there is some twinkish behavior on the part of hiders, but never even -start- to think that it isn't reciprocated from the other side.  As is?  They're only hidden as long as they don't do anything that actually warrants the kind of behavior people give to them for using hide and sneak in the first place.  The second they -earn- that reaction, they are, in that time, exposed.  And yes, I have caught people using this principle with characters who did not have scan, or watch maxed, or anything of that nature.

[X-D]

I think a reveal command is realistic, I mean lets face it, you should be able to point at the guy under the bed and have somebody else see them.

Realistic...Yes, I would still hate it. I like my ninjamagick stealthies...If you want to reveal me, use current coded methods and take the risk.

[Chettaman]

Yeah. I always hated it when my ghosts aiming the nuke was revealed by overlords -just- out of sight. Damn them.
True, though. Definately realistic.

[allieday1]

With close family friends that are police and knowing they sometimes have to pull someone hiding out so a partner can aid is very real. As family that hunts and you sometimes and have flush something out so another can shoot it seem to cross fit into Arm real enough. wouldn't call it skill sharing just old fashion calling something or someone out. PLus think of the Rp

Emote walks into the tavern heading to the bar with a shit face grin
Bump shadow (briefly in passing
tell guy who is standing there (moving on to the bar), Oh hey, my bad.

same with npc stuff
bump shadow (shaking the scrub hard
tell new person with you . There it goes! get em!

[Saellyn]

With close family friends that are police and knowing they sometimes have to pull someone hiding out so a partner can aid is very real. As family that hunts and you sometimes and have flush something out so another can shoot it seem to cross fit into Arm real enough. wouldn't call it skill sharing just old fashion calling something or someone out. PLus think of the Rp

Emote walks into the tavern heading to the bar with a shit face grin
Bump shadow (briefly in passing
tell guy who is standing there (moving on to the bar), Oh hey, my bad.

same with npc stuff
bump shadow (shaking the scrub hard
tell new person with you . There it goes! get em!

Code Select Expand

Looking dumbfounded, you say to the master hunter, in sirihish:
     "There -what- goes? Get -what-?"

[Spoon]

However, I find it hard to sympathize when certain players engage you in a conversation, then vanish without an emote only to appear half a second later -gutting- you where you stand because their skills allow them to do that. Or they vanish despite the fact that yes, you are talking to them, and now they're just gone and you're left looking like a moron.

This can be avoided with using watch. Saying that, I generally forget to watch people I should do. Maybe I'll get a post-it and stick in on the screen saying 'watch filthy'.

I've got a couple of thoughts on the matter. First off is about guarding against things you cannot see, and doesn't it make sense (har) that blind fighting should affect this? I mean, it makes sense. Whether or not warriors need the opportunity to defend the target and then bash the assassin to buggery is another question.

My second thought is about the scan skill. I've always thought of it as an inkling or something catching your eye, and it makes sense this way why characters cannot point the target out, just tell others that something is here with them. They've just read the signs and have a that feeling. I think it would be good if the mdesc was hidden to reinforce this. If you look at a shadow, you only get their sdesc. Makes it more of a glimpse rather than a head-to-toe examination. And if it's a glimpse, it's easier to role-play for people who don't have scan.

[bcw81]

My second thought is about the scan skill. I've always thought of it as an inkling or something catching your eye, and it makes sense this way why characters cannot point the target out, just tell others that something is here with them. They've just read the signs and have a that feeling. I think it would be good if the mdesc was hidden to reinforce this. If you look at a shadow, you only get their sdesc. Makes it more of a glimpse rather than a head-to-toe examination. And if it's a glimpse, it's easier to role-play for people who don't have scan.

The only problem with this is that most people (or at least myself, and that's most people in my mind) define a character by their sdesc. So maybe you know Amos is "the tall, muscular man". However, you never took time to read his mdesc, and thus, if it's him sneaking around, you might not know it was actually him.

[Spoon]

The only problem with this is that most people (or at least myself, and that's most people in my mind) define a character by their sdesc. So maybe you know Amos is "the tall, muscular man". However, you never took time to read his mdesc, and thus, if it's him sneaking around, you might not know it was actually him.

That's what I was going for. To be honest, I'd prefer as little information as possible, but then people ought to know the race/species. If it gave something vague like hunt, that would be cool.

I can't get my head around your first sentence in relation to the last two though.

[Saellyn]

Define the guy by his SDesc I dare you.


The young, just-mugged man exclaims to the muscular man in a blue templar robe, in sirihish:
     "Yes, Lord Templar, it was a tall, muscular man that mugged me!"

The muscular man in a blue templar robe asks the young, just-mugged man, in sirihish:
     "Are you saying -I- mugged you?"

The tall, muscular man arrives from the east, whistling softly.

Whistling softly, the tall, muscular man walks west.

The young, just-mugged man exclaims, in sirihish:
     "That guy right there, Lord Templar!"

The muscular man in a blue templar robe asks the nearby Militia recruit, in sirihish:
     "How many tall, muscular guys do you know, recruit?"

The nearby Militia recruit says to the muscular man in a blue templar robe, in sirihish:
     "I don't know, about a hundred or so, Lord Templar?"

The muscular man in a blue templar robe says to the young, just-mugged man, in sirihish:
     "There you go. Get the fuck out of my sight until you can actually -describe- the guy."

[Fredd]

I may be wrong. I may bee on some really good LSD...

But I swear to Krath that you can already "em points at ~shadow"

or "say (looking at ~shadow) I see you"

Because I swear I have done it.

Of cours,e you have to be able to SEE that shadow to do that.

[Nana]

Let's face it, you'd only ever want a reveal command in a tavern or in a public place, where crime is not strictly allowed.

And let's face it, a reveal command is an oversimplification of what being hidden actually is.

When you "see a strange shadow" you shouldn't interpret that as meaning that you have a direct bead on the guy and he's right there and you can see him and interact with him. You should think of it as that you're pretty damn sure there's some guy looming around who doesn't want to be seen, but you're not exactly sure who or where he is. If you're watching someone and then they hide, as long as you see the strange shadow, let's say you have a damn good feeling he's still around, but you can't quite pick him out in the crowd. Maybe you can smell him or something.

You could find out who or where he is, exactly, if you DID something to reveal him, but by doing so, HE would also know he was revealed and then you'd have blown your cover, i.e., that you knew someone bad was around. Now, both you and he know that you intended to out his hiding place, leaving him in an awkward situation (i.e., being confronted suddenly in a busy tavern by a guy shouting, "HEY ASSHOLE! I SEE YOU!"), and YOU, the revealer, in an equally awkward situation (i.e., "Hey, why did that guy suddenly just go up to that guy and punch him the face? What an asshole!"

The answer here is roleplay the situation appropriate to the setting of being in areas completely full of vnpcs.

[hyzhenhok]

Define the guy by his SDesc I dare you.


The young, just-mugged man exclaims to the muscular man in a blue templar robe, in sirihish:
     "Yes, Lord Templar, it was a tall, muscular man that mugged me!"

The muscular man in a blue templar robe asks the young, just-mugged man, in sirihish:
     "Are you saying -I- mugged you?"

The tall, muscular man arrives from the east, whistling softly.

Whistling softly, the tall, muscular man walks west.

The young, just-mugged man exclaims, in sirihish:
     "That guy right there, Lord Templar!"

The muscular man in a blue templar robe asks the nearby Militia recruit, in sirihish:
     "How many tall, muscular guys do you know, recruit?"

The nearby Militia recruit says to the muscular man in a blue templar robe, in sirihish:
     "I don't know, about a hundred or so, Lord Templar?"

The muscular man in a blue templar robe says to the young, just-mugged man, in sirihish:
     "There you go. Get the fuck out of my sight until you can actually -describe- the guy."

Eh, not much sympathy for "the tall, muscular man" if they do use the sdesc to track him down. You should be more descriptive with your sdescs than that.

[Synthesis]

Let's face it, you'd only ever want a reveal command in a tavern or in a public place, where crime is not strictly allowed.

And let's face it, a reveal command is an oversimplification of what being hidden actually is.

When you "see a strange shadow" you shouldn't interpret that as meaning that you have a direct bead on the guy and he's right there and you can see him and interact with him. You should think of it as that you're pretty damn sure there's some guy looming around who doesn't want to be seen, but you're not exactly sure who or where he is. If you're watching someone and then they hide, as long as you see the strange shadow, let's say you have a damn good feeling he's still around, but you can't quite pick him out in the crowd. Maybe you can smell him or something.

You could find out who or where he is, exactly, if you DID something to reveal him, but by doing so, HE would also know he was revealed and then you'd have blown your cover, i.e., that you knew someone bad was around. Now, both you and he know that you intended to out his hiding place, leaving him in an awkward situation (i.e., being confronted suddenly in a busy tavern by a guy shouting, "HEY ASSHOLE! I SEE YOU!"), and YOU, the revealer, in an equally awkward situation (i.e., "Hey, why did that guy suddenly just go up to that guy and punch him the face? What an asshole!"

The answer here is roleplay the situation appropriate to the setting of being in areas completely full of vnpcs.

Never played a ranger?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Let's face it, you'd only ever want a reveal command in a tavern or in a public place, where crime is not strictly allowed.

And let's face it, a reveal command is an oversimplification of what being hidden actually is.

When you "see a strange shadow" you shouldn't interpret that as meaning that you have a direct bead on the guy and he's right there and you can see him and interact with him. You should think of it as that you're pretty damn sure there's some guy looming around who doesn't want to be seen, but you're not exactly sure who or where he is. If you're watching someone and then they hide, as long as you see the strange shadow, let's say you have a damn good feeling he's still around, but you can't quite pick him out in the crowd. Maybe you can smell him or something.

You could find out who or where he is, exactly, if you DID something to reveal him, but by doing so, HE would also know he was revealed and then you'd have blown your cover, i.e., that you knew someone bad was around. Now, both you and he know that you intended to out his hiding place, leaving him in an awkward situation (i.e., being confronted suddenly in a busy tavern by a guy shouting, "HEY ASSHOLE! I SEE YOU!"), and YOU, the revealer, in an equally awkward situation (i.e., "Hey, why did that guy suddenly just go up to that guy and punch him the face? What an asshole!"

The answer here is roleplay the situation appropriate to the setting of being in areas completely full of vnpcs.

Never played a ranger?

Seriously. I can't count how many times I run into the "Hostile non-magick NPC in lifeless desert room full of PCs but only one PC can see it" situation. And in this case, the hider can't RP, since it's just a NPC.