The Reveal Skill/command

[Bacon]

Being told "you can use this other method already" doesn't make that other method implausible or impossible, though.  Not liking that other method doesn't mean it ceases to exist as an option for other people.  I understand that you don't like it and would prefer a different answer, but you should at least acknowledge that the alternative is an option in reality (even if you wouldn't do this yourself).

You seem to think my problem is that I'm saying the scene can't be roleplayed -at all- without it. That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that:

"If I want somebody (who is any good at it) to grab a guy that I spot with my scan skill, I have to attack them (to bring them out of hiding) to allow that character to do so. Even if my intention is not to bring injury to them."
There is no way currently around that.

If this is how you think it should be, just say: "That's how we want it. If you want a non-scanner to target a hidden character then you have to have a scanner attack them to bring them out of hiding."

Again: I want an alternative to having to attack them in order to grab them.  Currently, if my objective is to apprehend them without hurting them. I have to hurt them to attempt to do so.

[Nyr]

Ok. No. We are not doing that. This is how we want it.

[bcw81]

Being told "you can use this other method already" doesn't make that other method implausible or impossible, though.  Not liking that other method doesn't mean it ceases to exist as an option for other people.  I understand that you don't like it and would prefer a different answer, but you should at least acknowledge that the alternative is an option in reality (even if you wouldn't do this yourself).

You seem to think my problem is that I'm saying the scene can't be roleplayed -at all- without it. That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that:

"If I want somebody (who is any good at it) to grab a guy that I spot with my scan skill, I have to attack them (to bring them out of hiding) to allow that character to do so. Even if my intention is not to bring injury to them."
There is no way currently around that.

If this is how you think it should be, just say: "That's how we want it. If you want a non-scanner to target a hidden character then you have to have a scanner attack them to bring them out of hiding."

Again: I want an alternative to having to attack them in order to grab them.  Currently, if my objective is to apprehend them without hurting them. I have to hurt them to attempt to do so.

I don't understand why you don't just, you know, try to apprehend them yourself? There has been plenty of times my "Guild-That-Does-Not-Have-Subdue" has subdued someone.

[Synthesis]

Guys, guys, guys.... Guys.... Check it.

The long-nosed, waspish man exclaims in Sirihish,
  "There's someone under my bed! Right there! Don't you see him?!!!"

The tall, big half-giant says in Sirihish, rumbling as he peers under the bed,
  "No."

Panicking now, the long-nosed, waspish man says in Sirihish, waving his arms,
  "But he's RIGHT. THERE."

Helpfully as she peers under the bed, too, the cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman says in Sirihish, breathily,
  "Weeeellllllll shit...."

The cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

The tall, big half-giant guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

You Notice: A strange shadow looks apprehensive as all hell at all of the competent guards guarding his mark.

You Notice: A strange shadow stealthily moves west.

There's a small problem with that scenario, that players of experienced warriors will probably notice.  Or not notice, as the case may be.

[Potaje]

I think it could be pointed out like this:

citizen with scan, not a soldier type, is noticing that a thief in the bar is casing people, but only noticed to him.

So the citizen (pc) wants to point out the fact to the warrior soldier at the bar (also pc) but can only emote (but the pc thief/ lucker does not for what ever reason step out of hiding once pointed out) and the soldier is left standing around like a jack ass, and the citizen (who lets say walks right up to the lurker type) has to drag the lurker out of the crowd (currently only viable with subdue/ kick/ bash/ klill) And gets what the fuck pawned by the militia npc for doing so.

Where as with reveal the pc citizen pushes aside the crowd heading quickly over to the luerker pc and draws the lurker out so the warrior soldeir or what have you can then do his job. What ever that may be from that point.

[Jeshin]

I think the staff understand the various incarnations of the reveal skill/command that are being asked for. While I think the code would be simple to put in, the balancing issue they seem concerned about may be the deciding factor. That being said, we've gotten several replies about the request. I think we can let it go and perhaps see it in Arm 2 or hope the staff discuss it at some secret staff summit.

[Saellyn]

I find it easy to sympathize with sneakies, sometimes.

There are very few safe places for them. Many times, crime is a deadly venture and you get killed over it no matter what happens, or what you stole. Especially in certain locales, crime is punished by death, period.

However, I find it hard to sympathize when certain players engage you in a conversation, then vanish without an emote only to appear half a second later -gutting- you where you stand because their skills allow them to do that. Or they vanish despite the fact that yes, you are talking to them, and now they're just gone and you're left looking like a moron.

Still, reveal has too much potential for abuse. So I see a sneaky guy, and I reveal him. What the fuck does that do? Everyone who hates sneakies will herald me as a hero for saving them from a guy who, for all we know, was sitting there minding his own business in the corner and just happened to be laying low, but I had the fucking audacity to walk up to him, grab him, shake him and go "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE INCONSPICUOUS MOTHERFUCKER!"

I think that's what staff wants to avoid.

[Taven]

Ok. No. We are not doing that. This is how we want it.

Given that this is the response, I'd like to remind people that you CAN always wish up. If there's ever a case where you feel the sneaky person isn't emoting and is hanging out in the same place, or that you REALLY need to point them out for some reason and have done role-play, staff can help. Sure, they might say that they won't for whatever reason (maybe they disagree that your need was strong enough or maybe they see the hidden emotes of the person and know he's moving around), but it can't hurt to ask. At least, it can't hurt to ask if you're polite and not a bother about it (don't wish up every time there's a strange shadow in the room, obviously).

[Chettaman]

Guys, guys, guys.... Guys.... Check it.

The long-nosed, waspish man exclaims in Sirihish,
  "There's someone under my bed! Right there! Don't you see him?!!!"

The tall, big half-giant says in Sirihish, rumbling as he peers under the bed,
  "No."

Panicking now, the long-nosed, waspish man says in Sirihish, waving his arms,
  "But he's RIGHT. THERE."

Helpfully as she peers under the bed, too, the cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman says in Sirihish, breathily,
  "Weeeellllllll shit...."

The cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

The tall, big half-giant guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

You Notice: A strange shadow looks apprehensive as all hell at all of the competent guards guarding his mark.

You Notice: A strange shadow stealthily moves west.

There's a small problem with that scenario, that players of experienced warriors will probably notice.  Or not notice, as the case may be.

teehee. You can't guard against what you can't see.

[Qzzrbl]

Guys, guys, guys.... Guys.... Check it.

The long-nosed, waspish man exclaims in Sirihish,
   "There's someone under my bed! Right there! Don't you see him?!!!"

The tall, big half-giant says in Sirihish, rumbling as he peers under the bed,
   "No."

Panicking now, the long-nosed, waspish man says in Sirihish, waving his arms,
   "But he's RIGHT. THERE."

Helpfully as she peers under the bed, too, the cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman says in Sirihish, breathily,
   "Weeeellllllll shit...."

The cinnamon-sprinkled, pale-eyed buxom woman guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

The tall, big half-giant guards the long-nosed, waspish man.

You Notice: A strange shadow looks apprehensive as all hell at all of the competent guards guarding his mark.

You Notice: A strange shadow stealthily moves west.

There's a small problem with that scenario, that players of experienced warriors will probably notice.  Or not notice, as the case may be.

teehee. You can't guard against what you can't see.

Oh, right.... I forgot there weren't really any checks or balances against mastered stealth skills.

[Nyr]

teehee. You can't guard against what you can't see.

Oh, right.... I forgot there weren't really any checks or balances against mastered stealth skills.

[Qzzrbl]

lolololololol

That.... Oddly pretty much sizes up the issue.

[Celest]

I have to agree with Potjae's scenario and the other sentiments that Master Sneak (and I say this as someone who loves playing sneakies) sort of needs a reveal skill, for certain situations. Give it a long prior delay if you need, like crafting, so that it's balanced... but I do think that a lot of people just don't RP sneak/hide reasonably when spotted.

On the flip side, that's actually a good reason not to do it. I already see people assume any person that is sneaking/hiding about is a thief or someone nefarious, which smacks of guildsniffing and PCs being aware that the steal kill often comes paired with sneak/hide. I've actually seen PCs in the Gaj stand up and just start spamming hit at people who snuck in, to try and destealth them, with no RP or IC reason - which is sort of crazy given that it can also be considered "blending into a crowd." Needless to say it had consequences, but had the person they did that to not been so powerful, it would have probably just ruined someone's evening. Thiefy PCs already have to deal with too much stupidity when it comes to players doing wildly metagamey and OOC things to try and protect themselves.


If there's a concern of it limiting hide too much, why not make it based off of hide instead of scan, so that a PC who wants to reveal needs adequate scan to see them and adequate hide to reveal how they did it to everyone? Hide raises absurdly quick, so it wouldn't be that much of a limiting factor by itself, but by tying it to hide it would make a difference between revealing people in the city and revealing people in the wild, depending on one's guild.

[Nyr]

lolololololol

That.... Oddly pretty much sizes up the issue.

We're looking a step backward from revealing a hidden person with a command, and instead looking at how visibility and scan interact.

[Marauder Moe]

Could we also possibly take a look at how visibility and guard interact?   

[Morgenes]

Could we also possibly take a look at how visibility and guard interact?   

No, I think they work appropriately.

[Saellyn]

Summed up: Hide/sneak are unbalanced. So is the warriors ability to completely screw your day up if he's got any skill at all. Sneakies are (generally) not that great in melee combat, therefore they need the few advantages they have.

I echo that sentiment, I also echo the sentiment that I can't stand the way people abuse those skills all round, just because they have them mastered, but I don't think I've seen enough abuse to call it a problem at all. So, really, the issue here is "I want more advantages to balance the game out" where the answer is "Life isn't fair, therefore Armageddon isn't fair, therefore if you want to spot the guy pick a guild with scan skill."

[Heade]

Still, reveal has too much potential for abuse. So I see a sneaky guy, and I reveal him. What the fuck does that do? Everyone who hates sneakies will herald me as a hero for saving them from a guy who, for all we know, was sitting there minding his own business in the corner and just happened to be laying low, but I had the fucking audacity to walk up to him, grab him, shake him and go "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE INCONSPICUOUS MOTHERFUCKER!"

This.

[Armaddict]

Still, reveal has too much potential for abuse. So I see a sneaky guy, and I reveal him. What the fuck does that do? Everyone who hates sneakies will herald me as a hero for saving them from a guy who, for all we know, was sitting there minding his own business in the corner and just happened to be laying low, but I had the fucking audacity to walk up to him, grab him, shake him and go "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE INCONSPICUOUS MOTHERFUCKER!"

This.

Pretty much.  People come after you for having -hoods up- as is.  The second you use a stealth skill and people see you using it, you are automatically gibbed, guilty, and ge-fucked.  Just so I could keep using g's.

Yes, there is some twinkish behavior on the part of hiders, but never even -start- to think that it isn't reciprocated from the other side.  As is?  They're only hidden as long as they don't do anything that actually warrants the kind of behavior people give to them for using hide and sneak in the first place.  The second they -earn- that reaction, they are, in that time, exposed.  And yes, I have caught people using this principle with characters who did not have scan, or watch maxed, or anything of that nature.

[X-D]

I think a reveal command is realistic, I mean lets face it, you should be able to point at the guy under the bed and have somebody else see them.

Realistic...Yes, I would still hate it. I like my ninjamagick stealthies...If you want to reveal me, use current coded methods and take the risk.

[Chettaman]

Yeah. I always hated it when my ghosts aiming the nuke was revealed by overlords -just- out of sight. Damn them.
True, though. Definately realistic.

[allieday1]

With close family friends that are police and knowing they sometimes have to pull someone hiding out so a partner can aid is very real. As family that hunts and you sometimes and have flush something out so another can shoot it seem to cross fit into Arm real enough. wouldn't call it skill sharing just old fashion calling something or someone out. PLus think of the Rp

Emote walks into the tavern heading to the bar with a shit face grin
Bump shadow (briefly in passing
tell guy who is standing there (moving on to the bar), Oh hey, my bad.

same with npc stuff
bump shadow (shaking the scrub hard
tell new person with you . There it goes! get em!

[Saellyn]

With close family friends that are police and knowing they sometimes have to pull someone hiding out so a partner can aid is very real. As family that hunts and you sometimes and have flush something out so another can shoot it seem to cross fit into Arm real enough. wouldn't call it skill sharing just old fashion calling something or someone out. PLus think of the Rp

Emote walks into the tavern heading to the bar with a shit face grin
Bump shadow (briefly in passing
tell guy who is standing there (moving on to the bar), Oh hey, my bad.

same with npc stuff
bump shadow (shaking the scrub hard
tell new person with you . There it goes! get em!

Code Select Expand

Looking dumbfounded, you say to the master hunter, in sirihish:
     "There -what- goes? Get -what-?"

[Spoon]

However, I find it hard to sympathize when certain players engage you in a conversation, then vanish without an emote only to appear half a second later -gutting- you where you stand because their skills allow them to do that. Or they vanish despite the fact that yes, you are talking to them, and now they're just gone and you're left looking like a moron.

This can be avoided with using watch. Saying that, I generally forget to watch people I should do. Maybe I'll get a post-it and stick in on the screen saying 'watch filthy'.

I've got a couple of thoughts on the matter. First off is about guarding against things you cannot see, and doesn't it make sense (har) that blind fighting should affect this? I mean, it makes sense. Whether or not warriors need the opportunity to defend the target and then bash the assassin to buggery is another question.

My second thought is about the scan skill. I've always thought of it as an inkling or something catching your eye, and it makes sense this way why characters cannot point the target out, just tell others that something is here with them. They've just read the signs and have a that feeling. I think it would be good if the mdesc was hidden to reinforce this. If you look at a shadow, you only get their sdesc. Makes it more of a glimpse rather than a head-to-toe examination. And if it's a glimpse, it's easier to role-play for people who don't have scan.

[bcw81]

My second thought is about the scan skill. I've always thought of it as an inkling or something catching your eye, and it makes sense this way why characters cannot point the target out, just tell others that something is here with them. They've just read the signs and have a that feeling. I think it would be good if the mdesc was hidden to reinforce this. If you look at a shadow, you only get their sdesc. Makes it more of a glimpse rather than a head-to-toe examination. And if it's a glimpse, it's easier to role-play for people who don't have scan.

The only problem with this is that most people (or at least myself, and that's most people in my mind) define a character by their sdesc. So maybe you know Amos is "the tall, muscular man". However, you never took time to read his mdesc, and thus, if it's him sneaking around, you might not know it was actually him.