Karma Discussion Derail: Player/staff faith issues

[jstorrie]

I find a lot of comments the staff are making laughable.

My experience with complaints is getting the answer "Too bad."

I try and keep my character wants and my gdb self separate, but the staff seems to think they are linked in my opinion.

Staff must have randomly selected my name from a hat and singled me out for good treatment, then, because I'm not on staff, I don't communicate with staff outside of the request tool, and my experiences with staff have been consistently positive. A quick scan of my GDB history will also reveal that I tend to troll the shit out of this place.

I don't know what you guys are doing that I'm not, or vice versa. Maybe there are bad seeds among staff that I haven't encountered, or maybe some of you players are hard to work with. Probably a bit of both...

It reminds me of a govt agency I worked for.

Perhaps you see these two situations as being alike because your perception is coloured by a negative attitude. I don't know you, so take that with a grain of salt, but I'd consider it if I were in your shoes.

[Reiloth]

I think that's a gross overstatement, marko. I make an ass out of myself almost daily on the GDB, and I wouldn't say the Staff thinks i'm an untrustworthy player.

[marko]

I think that's a gross overstatement, marko. I make an ass out of myself almost daily on the GDB, and I wouldn't say the Staff thinks i'm an untrustworthy player.

I wouldn't presume to know what the staff, as a whole, would think. 

Everything is a factor.  Posts do reflect the nature of the player and can be an indicator towards email communications or other tendencies.  As such, how one posts has an impact on things like karma.  For some, even if they make themselves out to be an ass daily, they are still loveable and huggable.  Aka, they can pull it off.  Others are just well.. jerks.

[Reiloth]

I think that's a gross overstatement, marko. I make an ass out of myself almost daily on the GDB, and I wouldn't say the Staff thinks i'm an untrustworthy player.

I wouldn't presume to know what the staff, as a whole, would think.  

Everything is a factor.  Posts do reflect the nature of the player and can be an indicator towards email communications or other tendencies.  As such, how one posts has an impact on things like karma.  For some, even if they make themselves out to be an ass daily, they are still loveable and huggable.  Aka, they can pull it off.  Others are just well.. jerks.

I definitely agree with you there. I think that a GDB persona can tip the scale one way or the other.

EDIT:
Also -- Along those lines, if you make a post in some thread along the lines of "Man, I hate having Leader PC's and working with Staff, it's such a drag sending in character reports", and then send in a special app for a Leader in a Clan -- I can't see why Staff would want to accept your application. Airing dirty laundry on the GDB, as I have bouts of doing, is also not a great way to make friends with your Heavenly Operators.

[Titania]

As for the govt job, I was the beneficiary via who I knew, but doesn't mean I didn't think it was wrong. I still took the job. So a bit of a hypocrite.

To me role play is role play, and GDB is gdb. If someone cannot distinguish between the two, I don't feel bad that I can. But what is to be expected when you can't really have a discussion on a discussion board with all the rules and gangs of bullies.

[jstorrie]

That's a bit melodramatic, isn't it? We're having a discussion right now and it isn't impeded by rules or by roving gangs of bullies.

I can distinguish between the GDB and the game, too, but if someone was abrasive or unpleasant on the game boards I can't see why I'd expect them to be any less abrasive or more pleasant in clan-related communications.

[RogueGunslinger]

Because people act more professional in professional-type settings than they do on anonymous internet forums where rules are pretty lax?

The discussion isn't impeded right now by rules or bullies, but by player fear that their opinions on this matter might be taken the wrong way by some staff member and they won't get their sponsored app because of it.

[Bacon]

Because people act more professional in professional-type settings than they do on anonymous internet forums where rules are pretty lax?

The discussion isn't impeded right now by rules or bullies, but by player fear that their opinions on this matter might be taken the wrong way by some staff member and they won't get their sponsored app because of it.

Agreed. One's GDB behavior is not indicative of them having bad behaviors in other ways more pertinent to the game itself. It is not indicative of whether or not that person can be trusted either. A person can be a great roleplayer, be decent in their other communications with the staff and other players, never abuse bugs, play leaders, submit things to the game, and still get into arguments on the GDB. Should that take away everything else positive they have done?

[Nyr]

GDB behavior is directly related to your account, and what Staff thinks of you. I agree that it shouldn't

It isn't always directly related to your account.  Frequent forum trolls, flamers, other breakers-of-forum-rules are noted on their game accounts so we can keep an eye on them (if they retaliate to being banned on the GDB by going on a killing spree in-game, we would like to keep tabs on that).  I can think of a few players that are trusted just fine in the game, but have been banned on the GDB before.

I can distinguish between the GDB and the game, too, but if someone was abrasive or unpleasant on the game boards I can't see why I'd expect them to be any less abrasive or more pleasant in clan-related communications.

This comes up sometimes.  If you troll/flame/break rules all up and down the GDB and then show a hint of that sort of attitude to staff, the connection between how you act on the GDB and how you act to staff is easily made and not easily broken.

Because people act more professional in professional-type settings than they do on anonymous internet forums where rules are pretty lax?

The discussion isn't impeded right now by rules or bullies, but by player fear that their opinions on this matter might be taken the wrong way by some staff member and they won't get their sponsored app because of it.

Brief bit of clarity here, these are not anonymous internet forums, and there are rules here.  We've explained the staff complaint process pretty well here, too, as well as the forum rules.  Stay inside those lines and you should be good to go!

Agreed. One's GDB behavior is not indicative of them having bad behaviors in other ways more pertinent to the game itself. It is not indicative of whether or not that person can be trusted either. A person can be a great roleplayer, be decent in their other communications with the staff and other players, never abuse bugs, play leaders, submit things to the game, and still get into arguments on the GDB. Should that take away everything else positive they have done?

I don't think anyone has suggested that staff would do such a thing.  If such a player argued on the GDB, we don't really care.  If they troll, flame, or otherwise break the rules of the GDB, we'd ban their GDB account for 7 days.  Game account:  no action, may note that they are this player on the GDB.  They do it again?  Ban their account on the GDB for 14 days.  Game account:  no action, may note that they have been banned twice for breaking forum rules.  They do it again?  Ban their account on the GDB for a month.  Game account, no action, may note that they have been banned three times for breaking forum rules and are pending a complete ban of their GDB account.  They do it again?  Likely, this means a full ban of their GDB account.  Game account, no action, may note that they have been permanently banned on the GDB for breaking forum rules.

Now, at this point: 

I think that after you get to several bans on the GDB and several warnings from staff, you have shown that at the very least, following this one set of rules (that staff created, at that) isn't important to you.  That assumption on staff's part will likely extend to the game, which has another set of rules and expectations for players.  It may not be a direct link, but it is a link, and there's not really a way around it.  If you want to break that link or prove it wrong, follow the game rules, follow staff suggestions, and we really do encourage you to follow the GDB rules as well.

[ianmartin]

The term trust comes up over and over again in relation to Karma.  How do we define trust???

Can trust reliably be applied to someone who gets sponsored role after sponsored role yet keeps either getting killed/stored/bored with the role etc. 

Can trust reliably be applied to someone with a high Karma account and who does little to no roleplay or bad roleplay?

Or can trust be applied to someone who plays supporting roles for long periods of time or over a LOOOONG period of time???


Just my $0.02

[Talia]

Can trust reliably be applied to someone who gets sponsored role after sponsored role yet keeps either getting killed/stored/bored with the role etc.

This doesn't happen. It doesn't happen because after a player gets one or two sponsored roles and then dies stupidly or stores quickly or simply does a bad job, staff aren't likely to take them on for future sponsored roles; they will be passed over for players who do a better job, or for players who haven't previously had a chance. So there are no players who are "getting killed/stored/bored" and yet are getting "sponsored role after sponsored role." I don't know where you get the idea that this happens, but it's just not true.

Can trust reliably be applied to someone with a high Karma account and who does little to no roleplay or bad roleplay?

Another fantasy construction. We don't have 8-karma players who do this.

Or can trust be applied to someone who plays supporting roles for long periods of time or over a LOOOONG period of time???

Did you actually read the karma criteria? If you did, then you would know the answer is "yes." The karma criteria are pretty clear.

[John]

I've done all sorts for Armageddon. I've created player tools (emote emulator, age converter), I've interned as a web admin back in 2002/2003. I've done other stuff I won't discuss. I don't have karma for a mul.

I might not have been active in recent years, but I still see it as the staff having neglected to recognize my brilliance. I don't see how my roleplaying could improve that would warrant me suddenly being trusted to play a sorcerer. I'll likely never get to play one before Arm 2 comes around. I'm okay with that.

I trust their judgment that I do lack something to be trusted to play a sorcerer. Perhaps it's my lack of leadership skills. Regardless I can and do enjoy the game without it and I trust them if they say the game wouldn't be improved by me playing a sorcerer.

That said I've always felt I could speak my mind with the staff without fear of repercussion. I've had Nessalin yell at me, and yet always treat me fairly even after that. I don't always agree with the staff choices (a recent example is my character app got rejected, and yet I can quote a document that says the reason I was given was invalid). Rather then send a longwinded email saying how injust it was, I made a minor modification and moved on. Even if I believe I was in the right, it wasn't important enough to argue over.

After all, it's only a game.

Also MUDs have been dying since I joined. Armageddon has never been so popular.

I use to say no-one ever leaves Arm. They just take extended breaks. It's still true IMO.

I hope this isn't dismissed as mere sucking up.

[jstorrie]

You know, I have a feeling that if you put in a special app for a sorceror - and said application was relatively compelling - you'd get it.

In fact, I think that the section of the playerbase who could get a mul/sorc/psion via special app is actually rather large.

[X-D]

Cept many of them don't want to play those roles...which actually means you get to stay in karma limbo.

Since even staff admits to giving out or leaving options in place after a special app if done well.

And honestly, I don't think one should have to play those roles, including leadership under the new listing in order to have that "trust".

I mean, at least with the old system, if you have no interest in muls, elkros, drovian, sorc, bender or leader, It might never bother you to be stuck at 4 karma.


But the coming system means you will actually WANT the higher karma level even if you only play human merchants.

Eh, I'm rambling.

[jstorrie]

Yeah - that all boils down to how under the current system, there's no big difference between having 5 karma or 8 - at 5 you can probably get anything you want via special app already. Under the new system, there's a noticeable difference, because the guy at 8 karma has more points to spend on bumps and such.

I suppose this highlights a challenge for the transition, which is that a number of people who tend to play mundanes or behind-the-scenes-type PCs may have artificially low karma (for the reasons X-D outlined above.) Asking for a karma review seems to be the logical solution.

[Jingo]

Since even staff admits to giving out or leaving options in place after a special app if done well.

They did this for me a few years ago. When the staff member that gave it to me left, they took it away and said they would have given me karma instead.  

[IntuitiveApathy]

Since even staff admits to giving out or leaving options in place after a special app if done well.

They did this for me a few years ago. When the staff member that gave it to me left, they took it away and said they would have given me karma instead.  

I have an option for something that I've never spec app'd before, nor have the karma level for (presuming the 'count' is accurate in my account notes).  It's been there for a long, long time and it's still there so far as I can see.  I did regular app it maybe a year ago, and it was approved without any discussion.  I'm guessing that I'm trusted enough to play that option, but with the new system coming in, that it's just going to disappear, since I don't have the appropriate karma level for it.

Conversely, I don't have the option to play something which I do have the karma for, which I've never app'd or played before.  I don't know whether this is because I'm not trusted to play it, or it was skipped or overlooked (in the old days, I think they used to add options by hand when handing out the karma, or just plain add the options before the karma system).

There's been no mention at all about the above stuff in my account notes, which I've requested a few times over the years.  My guess is that the stuff is so old that newer staff just don't know the reasoning behind it, and without any further notes on my account to reference, have erred on the side of caution and have just left it.

[Ktavialt]

You know, I have a feeling that if you put in a special app for a sorceror - and said application was relatively compelling - you'd get it.

In fact, I think that the section of the playerbase who could get a mul/sorc/psion via special app is actually rather large.

In 2005 or 2006 I spec app'd a psionicist when I had 3 karma and it was approved, although he died really fast.  He was a northie mindbender that hated what he was.  I even had powergamey notes on my prior Whiran and the account notes with my approval said "well at least the concept shows that he won't powergame his skills since he hates that he has them - watch him though".  I'm sure I woulda been toasted somehow if I was playing him bad (spamming skills), and I didn't play him bad.  After he died I played a d-elf for a few months.  Then, I spec apped a sorcereress while still having 3 karma and got it.  I think I did a somewhat compelling character concept and was pretty good - got a pretty nifty amount of player kudos while playing her.  She died within a year, I then got a 'nakki templar.  My 'nakki templar was a horrible noble, sucked balls and died within a week or two cause I was too used to the rough and tumble, do-it-yourself commoner/rogue magicker type.

Anyways yeah I had some good luck with spec apps, haven't done any since 2005/2006 though.

[jriley]

I like the original post.  But I'd like to admit that I haven't applied for any karma-restricted/sponsored roles in the recent past and so probably don't have a full grasp on the issue. 

That being said, I feel that having a bit more openness on the part of the staff, and their evaluation criterion, can only help things and I think this is the direction that the staff are going with this. 

One other point -- I feel that it really takes too long to to get karma.  I think that most players should be able to get six points of karma in their first two years reliably.  If it's much longer than that, then we end up with long periods of inactivity where there is no real barometer of trust between player and staff. 

[shadeoux]

I like the original post.  But I'd like to admit that I haven't applied for any karma-restricted/sponsored roles in the recent past and so probably don't have a full grasp on the issue. 

That being said, I feel that having a bit more openness on the part of the staff, and their evaluation criterion, can only help things and I think this is the direction that the staff are going with this. 

One other point -- I feel that it really takes too long to to get karma.  I think that most players should be able to get six points of karma in their first two years reliably.  If it's much longer than that, then we end up with long periods of inactivity where there is no real barometer of trust between player and staff. 

I'd agree to this point, however, what would/could be a suitable guideline to say, he/she should have enough knowledge to do X role. Even after playing this game on and off for almost two decades I still run into people/places/things that I have never seen/done/investigated before. Still new to me, and is why I haven't really complained once about not having enough karma for a role.
That is not to say I haven't spec aped something and was rejected, because I have, and have also had spec apps approved too. I just try to work with the staff and try not to compromise my concept I am working on to much.

[My 2 sids]

Accountability isn't necessarily the same thing as Communication, and it is communication which builds strong relationships.
I believe the staff (as a whole) have really pushed to make themselves accountable, and for that they should be commended.  What I believe to be the next step (and what many players are actually asking for) is to have more open communication. 

The first thing that popped into my head when reading the new Karma grid was, "Oh, it's a rubric!  Great, rubrics are good for helping to assess subjective material."  (Accountability)

But, it occupied to me reading through some clan docs -- I have no idea where my Clan's Staff stand on clan X.  Cheesy as it may sound there wasn't/isn't any "introduction"  or  "mission statement" which I could read and be like, "Ah, I see that's the direction things are going so I can work with that."  The ability to get everyone on the same page, to feel like everyone is part of the group...

Or, in reports -- I understand Staff are busy people (we all are).  However, there comes a point where silence becomes louder then words.  Where one is left wondering "Are they agreeing?  Are they disagreeing?  Are they simply glancing/ bored as they read?" 

And let's not forget that often times it is said, "we'll we're just reacting to your PC" while in reality the Staff do play a major role in pro-acting...  again leaving one to wonder.
(Communication)

[Nyr]

But, it occupied to me reading through some clan docs -- I have no idea where my Clan's Staff stand on clan X.  Cheesy as it may sound there wasn't/isn't any "introduction"  or  "mission statement" which I could read and be like, "Ah, I see that's the direction things are going so I can work with that."  The ability to get everyone on the same page, to feel like everyone is part of the group...

You should ask your clan staff where they stand on a clan, a clan issue, etc.  I don't think each clan needs a mission statement from staff.  Salarr--we pledge to help you be a Salarri.  We will do things other clan staffers do, like approve master crafting requests and item order requests, and check over your character reports.  We expect you to read your documentation and ask us if you have any questions.  I'm not sure how this would be different with any clan.  When you have questions, ask.  We are not able to proactively read your mind to find out that you don't know where your staff stand on an issue.

Or, in reports -- I understand Staff are busy people (we all are).  However, there comes a point where silence becomes louder then words.  Where one is left wondering "Are they agreeing?  Are they disagreeing?  Are they simply glancing/ bored as they read?" 

You're left wondering something after a report?  It would be a good idea to include your question in a new report, then.  Again with the "we may be proactive, but we can't read minds."

And let's not forget that often times it is said, "we'll we're just reacting to your PC" while in reality the Staff do play a major role in pro-acting...  again leaving one to wonder.
(Communication)

I don't know what this means.

[Calavera]

Or, in reports -- I understand Staff are busy people (we all are).  However, there comes a point where silence becomes louder then words.  Where one is left wondering "Are they agreeing?  Are they disagreeing?  Are they simply glancing/ bored as they read?" 

I can't speak for everyone, but one thing I appreciate more than ANYTHING in reports is when players divide them into IC and OOC sections.

Sometimes, it is difficult to ascertain which bits of a report are coming from the player and which are coming from the character. I've requested people to be more specific about this in the past.

Reading people's reports and bio entries is one of my fave things to do on staff. I read my clannies' reports carefully and I tried to give detailed feedback to them... but I'm human. Sometimes I miss things. It sucks.

If you have important questions about stuff, I recommend NOT doing this:

I killed a gemmer and gave the head to Faithful Lady Boom-cha. Kurac's got a bounty on the same guy because he was spotted over Luir's Outpost flying and peeing downwards on several occasions. Gonna try to finagle a way to collect both bounties. Plan on giving the gem and his duds to the Templars but I'll give his head to Kurac because they are taking it pretty personally. <Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah a bunch of other stuff blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah> Anyways, since head objects don't last when you logout, I'm going to have to ask for you to load up a head of the buck-toothed, pimply half-elf for me because I need proof that I killed him. And my character also got up to a bunch of other stuff: he's got an apartment in Allanak now, and he uses it to crush slices of fruit into jam over and over because he's trying to build up a jam collection to impress this Fale aide he wants to bone. Maybe she'll let him eat some off her!

And instead, do this:

IC Stuff
I killed a gemmer and gave the head to Faithful Lady Boom-cha. Kurac's got a bounty on the same guy because he was spotted over Luir's Outpost flying and peeing downwards on several occasions. Gonna try to finagle a way to collect both bounties. Plan on giving the gem and his duds to the Templars but I'll give his head to Kurac because they are taking it pretty personally.

He's got an apartment in Allanak now, and he uses it to crush slices of fruit into jam over and over because he's trying to build up a jam collection to impress this Fale aide he wants to bone. Maybe she'll let him eat some off her!

OOC Stuff
Any chance you could load me a head of the buck-toothed, pimply half-elf? I need to give the head to Kurac and I know the head will have disappeared when I log out with it. Thanks!

If something is super important to you the player, I do not want to miss it! But often times, stuff gets buried in the middle of reports and it can be missed. Not that you do this particularly, My 2 Sids, I just wanted it out there as a general suggestion. The more important it is, the less likely we are to miss it if you highlight it somewhere in your report.

[Saellyn]

This is as good a time as any to go...

Why can't we all just be friends? Staff only wants to brutally murder our characters, it's not like they hate us.

Well maybe Calavera does, but Calavera seems to be hiding it well behind kindness and generosity, which in Zalanthas means look over your shoulder before you get backstabbed.

Aaaaanyways... I think this thread has pretty well run its course. Lock, maybe? Or does anyone else have some input?

[ShaLeah]

This is as good a time as any to go...

Why can't we all just be friends? Staff only wants to brutally murder our characters, it's not like they hate us.

Well maybe Calavera does, but Calavera seems to be hiding it well behind kindness and generosity, which in Zalanthas means look over your shoulder before you get backstabbed.

Aaaaanyways... I think this thread has pretty well run its course. Lock, maybe? Or does anyone else have some input?

The topic of player/staff relations will NEVAH be done! At  least I hope not. What good are a whole bunch of yes-men/women gonna do for this place? Nada. 

That said, I can see both sides, don't think the staff recognized my brilliance either (back when I was intravenously connected to Ginka) and have been seen as a pain in the ass by some staff and players alike.  I don't think I've ever trolled since I don't know what trolling is but I may be wrong.

One thing I've never done is special app'd for either advertised special roles or concepts I really wanted to play because of how much trouble I seemed to get into back when I was really active. I'll always regret that because maybe I should have tried. Maybe someone would have taken a chance on ME and helped me create a great, memorable character.   I can't tell you how many templar positions I wanted to apply for that I didn't because of fear.

As a player in a game entrusted to the Staff it's imperative to have a good working relationship with that staff imho in order for you to grow as a player and enrich the game which is the ultimate reason to play, isn't it?  I'm not saying you have to invite them over for dinner and send Christmas cards but the rules are in place to make it as fair and enjoyable as possible for ALL players.  Players and staff should be allowed to express their opinions openly keeping in mind that priviledge and "advancement" (i.e. increased karma) on Armageddon come as a result of a trust that is earned by the observation and interaction with said staff. We're being judged on our actions and/or lack thereof.  You can't bitch about the karma you're not getting when you're not trying your best to get it. 

In closing, if you're not getting the karma you think you deserve, my suggestion would be to apply for a special role that's either advertised or of your own design. Don't let a rejection stop you from trying again and again until you get it. Sometimes it's gonna take tenacity to get what you want and maybe, if you're entrusted and given that chance, you open the door to change and the appreciation you wish you had gotten.