Karma Discussion Derail: Player/staff faith issues

[Nyr]

This is as good a time as any to go...

Why can't we all just be friends? Staff only wants to brutally murder our characters, it's not like they hate us.

Well maybe Calavera does, but Calavera seems to be hiding it well behind kindness and generosity, which in Zalanthas means look over your shoulder before you get backstabbed.

Aaaaanyways... I think this thread has pretty well run its course. Lock, maybe? Or does anyone else have some input?

Please don't resurrect topics just to see your name in the discussion.  If you have nothing to add but "this hasn't been discussed in a while, we should lock the thread," your point is both true and unnecessary.  Nothing bad is going to happen if a thread has run its course.  There's no underlying need to lock threads that have not had comments in x amount of time.

[Saellyn]

I'm sorry, sometimes I don't see a topic for while and have something to say.

[Attana]

I can see both sides of the coin here.

About the karma issue - for me it's a wait and see sort've thing, but I've never really had much faith in the karma system as a whole, so I'm not getting my hopes up.

As for the Player/staff faith issues - I've had some bad encounters and I've had some awesome encounters.  I've had karma removed because a staff wrongfully accused me of some OOCness, then I had it returned after it was cleared up.  Then I had it and a couple more removed not long after that because the same staffer that removed and returned it before felt that I didn't play something out ICly that -was- an IC reaction from my PC based on knowledge of the game world my PC and I -didn't- know about until the staffer told me I've been around long enough and should've known about it.  Which was one part of the removal that I felt was unfair and it did affect my want to play, and has affected it still even though it was a couple years back.  There was another reason to the removal that I haven't argued, and even agreed on.  Did I feel like that particular staffer was being unfair towards me?  Yes.  Did I send up a staff complaint?  No.  Why?  Well, because I felt it would've been pointless to argue with that particular staffer and/or any other one.  I will admit, part of the reason why I didn't send in a complaint was also do in part to my opinion that staff might favor... well other staff members.  Is that issue still unresolved?  Yes, atleast for me it is.  I still feel the situation was handled unfairly, with the previous encounter with that particular staffer influencing their decisions on something entirely different.  I'm not saying that I'm a saint and that I haven't made mistakes, but I'd like to think that I have improved leaps and bounds since then - though my karma still sits where it did years ago after having it removed.  So I tend to play roles that keep to themselves with little to no staff interaction.  (Quite probably, more likely even, why that's the case.)

But like I said, I've also had some awesome interaction with staff, in an IC fashion and OOC as well.  Recent responses from staff to character reports have improved my outlook, and actually made me all the more inclined to delve that much further into my characters mindset and even prompted me to start some plots moving along.  It's even made me think about finally using that bio tool, which I have still yet to do because I'm lazy (that and I always start writing it up, only to criticize my writing and have a debate with myself that it's not done right and then I eventually say fuck it and delete it all.).

[Nyr]

I'm not saying that I'm a saint and that I haven't made mistakes, but I'd like to think that I have improved leaps and bounds since then - though my karma still sits where it did years ago after having it removed.

No account notes requests in 3 years will tend to put you below the radar.  You placed no staff complaint about the incident in question, but I am familiar with it, and your report here is inaccurate.  One staffer did indeed remove karma for an OOC incident and it was granted back.  Another (separate) staffer removed karma for an unrelated incident.  Having your facts straight is important--no one staffer was being vindictive here (you can check your e-mail history to confirm this).  I see here that you disagree with the reasoning for the karma docking for 2 points.  You should have put in a staff complaint about it (and still could, if you'd like).  We have made an effort since then to put staff expectations for certain roles and situations in helpfiles (see help wish).

Regardless, if you wish to have your karma reviewed but don't play in roles that report to staff on a regular basis, you should put in an account notes request (see help karma) to have it reviewed based on the karma guidelines we have now.

[My 2 sids]

Nyr,  do you realize you may not be helping matters on this issue?

People ask questions/ start new threads and staff say "oh, it's been covered in this past thread"   Then folks add to old threads and now you're accusing folks of rehashing and saying they shouldn't look at old threads.

Further, folks are trying very hard to give their experiences, their opinions  and instead of taking the time to maybe email them or give your experience... you're immediately coming back with "We'll I'm staff, I know more than you, you're wrong"


This whole thing with Karma seems to "is this a way to give feedback" or is it a "test" to see which players are more worthy of Staff interaction.

[musashi]

I like Nyr-bashing as much as the next red-blooded American, but I didn't feel like he was being mean in his reply there.

Seemed like he just said that she hasn't gotten any karma because she hasn't requested her account notes in 3 years, and that's typically when staff do a karma review. Then he cleared up some details she apparently got wrong, and offered her a way to go back and check for herself to verify the mistake.

*shrug*

I butt heads with Nyr all the time, but fair's fair. He seemed pretty reasonable there.

>_>
<_<

... although it is kinda funny ... because this one time ... I corrected an error Nyr made in his facts on an issue ... and he called my correction frivolous.

[valeria]

Nyr,  do you realize you may not be helping matters on this issue?

People ask questions/ start new threads and staff say "oh, it's been covered in this past thread"   Then folks add to old threads and now you're accusing folks of rehashing and saying they shouldn't look at old threads.

Further, folks are trying very hard to give their experiences, their opinions  and instead of taking the time to maybe email them or give your experience... you're immediately coming back with "We'll I'm staff, I know more than you, you're wrong"


This whole thing with Karma seems to "is this a way to give feedback" or is it a "test" to see which players are more worthy of Staff interaction.

That really wasn't a snarky response.  He was just letting her know how to help herself, and perhaps clearing up some points she'd misremembered because it was a couple of years ago, details that could definitely have affected her level of butthurt and that it might've helped to get fixed.  Public responses to experiences and opinions people themselves make public are also reasonable in my book.

Also, further back in the thread someone posted a couple randomish comments and then asked to have the thread locked.  I don't see anything wrong with pointing out that it's unnecessary to bump a thread on a pretext and then ask to have it locked.

So, who exactly isn't helping matters?  I'm failing to see the unreasonable or unhelpful there.  The world may now end because I have agreed with Musashi in both form and substance... 

Nyr really needs to start using smileys or something.   

[X-D]

Huh, And here I was thinking Nyr's post was friendly and helpful.

Still sucks that getting a review has been, for the most part, only possible with an account notes request.

Some of us don't want to see our account notes, Mostly so we can stay friendly with staff. My one and only time asking for them, more then 10 years ago left me with a rather bad view of staff, full of errors, out of context observations and other things. Since then I know more things have been added that are as bad or worse and I know that seeing them would at the very least leave a bad taste in my mouth. Oh yes, I know, now days the staff answer is "Send reports, help us get the context right...yadda yadda." My answer being, If you did not see the entire scene don't make the note, good or bad.

Happily it has been stated that you can simply ask for a karma review without asking for account notes.

And I am really trying to believe they are in an ongoing mission to improve these issues.

[My 2 sids]

My response was neither snarky nor bashing.  The fact folks are obviously so touchy shows how hot this issue still is.

[Barzalene]

Text as a mode of communication is good, but not perfect.

[Nyr]

People ask questions/ start new threads and staff say "oh, it's been covered in this past thread"   Then folks add to old threads and now you're accusing folks of rehashing and saying they shouldn't look at old threads.

I assume you are referring to the post I made earlier here.  I stand by that; there's no point in bumping a topic just to say it needs to be locked.  I have no idea what else you are referring to as it is nonspecific.

Further, folks are trying very hard to give their experiences, their opinions  and instead of taking the time to maybe email them or give your experience... you're immediately coming back with "We'll I'm staff, I know more than you, you're wrong"

If a player uses the GDB to vent, that's fine.  However, the proper mode of discussing an issue about a problem with staff is (as has been mentioned before) via the request tool.  Furthermore, if a player uses the GDB to vent but doesn't have the facts correct about portions of their venting, it's a good thing to correct them.  If you think we should e-mail such players, well, we think they should send in a request rather than make it public.  If they want to post details about their account history publicly, it is only fair that we clarify publicly.  That has historically been how we have handled this.

This whole thing with Karma seems to "is this a way to give feedback" or is it a "test" to see which players are more worthy of Staff interaction.

I have no idea what you mean here.  Staff interaction largely comes through the request tool and animations.  We are not handling 8 karma players and 0 karma players with different guidelines with regard to our interaction with them. 

If you mean that the above two positions are the two questions you're asking yourself about karma, then wonder no longer and read the helpfile on karma:

Code Select Expand

Karma                                                              (Account)

   ArmageddonMUD operates a Karma system designed to open up the more
complicated, powerful and RP challenging roles to players. Karma is simply
a measure of trust that the staff members have in a given player's:

    - Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced
      by playing roles realistically and acting responsibly with the code.
    - Knowledge of the game world, and an appreciation of the way in which
      the various races, guilds, and so on, interact.
    - Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to
      show that they are really involved in the game world, and also
      enriching the game world for other players.

   Staff base their decisions to award karma on a set of categories. Each
category has a list of criteria which players need to meet in order to gain
a karma point. No more than two karma points can be awarded in any one
category area and the longevity category is limited to one karma point
only.

Categories:
   - Longevity
   - Good communication
   - Ability to roleplay
   - Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
   - Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
   - Contributes to the game
   - Leadership

   Players may request their account notes once every six months. An
Account Notes request will automatically have staff assessing your
karma at their own discretion outside of Account Notes requests.

Karma is not an end in itself. Acquiring karma points is not something
you should be 'striving towards' as a player; the fun that you get out of
role-playing your character should be the primary reward in itself. Most
players will find that they do not progress past the three or four karma
point range.

    Karma is a totally out of character (OOC) concept, and should have no
bearing whatsoever on what happens in the game.

    Part of the function of karma is to make life easier for the staff
members; those players who over time have demonstrated desirable qualities
will 'automatically' gain access to privileged races and guilds. Gaining
karma is not, however, the only way to do this. If you feel that you have
a case to make about why you should be allowed to play a race or guild that
you do not have karma for you may submit a special application through the
request tool. See 'help special applications' for more information.

See Also:
   Karma Options, Roleplaying, Staff Communication, Special Applications

Now, you may think it's about something else, but we did put a lot of effort into figuring it out--this is what our position is on karma.

My response was neither snarky nor bashing.  The fact folks are obviously so touchy shows how hot this issue still is.

I don't think the issue is hot, I just think you could stand to clarify your statements.  If you aren't specific, a lot can be read into text posted.

[My 2 sids]

Fine, Nyr you win.  You always win.  Okay?

All I was trying to say was that in an open discussion folks are encouraged to speak, not "I'm going to rip apart every detail you post"

[EldritchOrigins]

Staff should get a public relations rep to take care of their public rep.

[Nyr]

Staff should get a public relations rep to take care of their public rep.

The answer to dealing with players that won't/can't be satisfied by anything a staff member does != provide yet another staffer with yet another thankless job.

[Nyr]

You're definitely encouraged to speak, but when the same points keep coming up, I have to question whether the logic of bumping a dormant thread to ask that it be locked is actually correct.

The things that keep coming up: 

Anecdotes about player situations that are either partially relevant, partially correct, baseless (in terms of facts), etc.  At the same time, there tends to be little desire on those same player's parts to actually try to address the issue now.  Perhaps they don't want to.  Well, that's fine, but to be frank, we aren't going to fix stuff without knowing that you feel it needs to be fixed, so you have to communicate to us.

Anecdotes about how a player doesn't trust staff, how x staffer in the past screwed them over, how staff have a vendetta against them, how staff just hate them, always win arguments, etc. Well, could be true, may be true, may not be true, but often enough, it's just one side of the story.  We have guidelines for staff to follow (and have for quite some time).  Either you trust that we have the best interests of the game at heart or you don't.  You're going to have to live with that and follow proper channels to bring it up and have it addressed.  If you bring something up in a staff complaint and you get a response from a producer that disagrees with your position, it's time to move on and stop harping on it.  We aren't going to bend over backwards to help out players that don't want to be helped and think we're a bunch of corrupt assholes just out to screw over the general playerbase.

For the final time on this particular thread:

If you have a problem with how staff have dealt with you, put in a staff complaint.  This goes to producers.  Yes, other staffers can make notes on them, but they can't send replies to you.  It can only be replied to/resolved by a producer.  There are three producers.

If you want a karma review, put in an account notes request.

Now--today?  This is a good day to lock this thread, because it has devolved into arguments about stuff that have already been covered, and it is honestly getting silly.

My 2 sids -- put in a staff complaint about me.  Put your money where your mouth is.  Do you think I'm lying when I say that it goes to producers and I can't do anything about it?  I can't do anything to a staff complaint or an account notes request except add a note to it (which won't go to you).

Attana -- put in a staff complaint about your past issue.  If not that, at least an account notes request so that your karma can be reviewed and some pointers offered (if applicable/if any/etc).

[Morgenes]

If you want a karma review and don't want to see your notes, submit an account notes request, but indicate you just want a karma review and don't want to see your detailed notes.  We will remove them, and just summarize why we made the adjustment (if any) we did.

Just a fair warning, this may mean we just say 'No karma adjustment at this time'.