Karma Discussion Derail: Player/staff faith issues

[marko]

Here's my take from a totally disconnected point of view at this time:

People are people.

Staff are people.

Players are people.

Both play the game to have fun.  Staff just have more 'responsibility' that they have chosen to take upon themselves. 

Thank the staff for being staff.  Forgive the staff for being human.  Forgive yourselves for being human and..

PLAY THE GAME FOR FUN. 

Some things don't change and human nature is one of those.  But, I implore anyone who has 'problems' with staff and staff who have 'issues' with players to take a moment and remember, hey, we all love this here game and we want to have fun.  Just remember, different types of personalities obtain fun through different means and it takes all types to make Arm what it is... even newbie killers to maintain the killer atmosphere that is Armageddon.

Ahh, if only there were more pkill muds out there these days that would migrate over to Arm like the "good old days."  Go go pkmud.

Tangent aside:  Play arm and try to stop being haters due to people being people.. unless they are bad people and then ban them.

[Vox]

Personally, I'm all for the new addition and think that the chance to customize further is brilliant. I also like the idea of regulating how many Psi/Sorc/Nilazi are running around at any given time, making them that much more scary. And the ability to customize magickal classes or add some magick to a mundane or some mundane skills to a magicker.. this is brilliant. I'm not an 8 Karma player myself but I have no doubt that if I submit an inspired character concept the staff will work with me on realizing it, and I've had a 'colorful' 18 year experience with Armageddon.

More importantly, marko makes an interesting point:

Here's my take from a totally disconnected point of view at this time:

People are people.

Staff are people.

Players are people.

Echoed in this clip from Muppets Take Manhattan (watch this immediately):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQgfgB-vgT0

[Nyr]

So basically -- What Lizzie said. If you have the balls to try to discuss Staff policy, or have an ounce of public malcontent, be prepared to make the sacrifice.

When you start out from a very extreme, negative, and opinionated public position, yes, you should be prepared to make the sacrifice.  It has nothing to do with balls and everything to do with tact.

We both like talking in black and whites to each other, Nyr, but like I said -- I have made that choice, and I don't really want to engage Staff in a seemingly endless uphill battle. I'll stop myself here, as I knew I could most likely only make one post before it became an obvious back and forth that requires little more public discussion.

That is an example of using tact properly when discussing matters with staff.  Kudos!  If you would like to proceed in a discussion with staff, tone down rhetoric and engage via request. 

[Nyr]

I don't feel its a fair statement to say that anyone is assuming conspiracies, but more voicing opinions.

Someone suggested that a producer could be colluding with a lower staff member in order to back them up when complaints come up, and vice versa.  They wanted to know what staff would do about this. This is an opinion, yes.  It is also a conspiracy theory.  There is no validity to it.  At some point, it has to be called what it is:  silly.

If I had that particular problem myself I would deal with it through private channels, as Nyr suggested above, and likewise I have suggested to players who have let off steam in my presence that they do the same. That being said, none of the fellow players who mention their problems to me ever seem to get them resolved, regardless of their communications with staff.

You shouldn't feel bummed out.  If a player is venting to another player but never seems to get their "problems with staff" resolved, perhaps they're approaching the situation wrong.  Perhaps they are not actually approaching staff.  Perhaps they are, as I mentioned earlier, completely in the wrong, and distorting things to you entirely.  I do know that we can't do anything about hypothetical player friends with hypothetical problems.  I don't disbelieve you in this case--I'm not saying you don't have these friends with these problems, but I am saying that as far as we are concerned, they don't exist, because we don't know who they are. Hell, I dunno--tell me who these people are in a request.  If nothing else, I can assuage your bummed-out-ness by looking into each situation and offering a very, very vague "well, they're not telling you the entire truth" answer or even a "hmm, there's something up, here" answer.  Then it's up to you whether or not to believe me, and if they have a legitimate issue, it's up to them to work with us to address it.

[Barzalene]

In particular, I agree with Sunburned's assertion that we need to communicate better on both sides of the equation and narrow the gap between Us and Them, regardless of which side of that divide we're on.
That might best start with losing pejorative words. That means losing words like unfairn and resorting to name calling. It also means that even when we don't like people's comments we don't leave them feeling dismissed or scolded.
Maybe the problem is that we think the other side should stop wanting to be coddled, what with it being a harsh game world and all. But we'd all do better to leave the Harsh in the confines of the browser and let civility and active listening be the default on all out of character interaction.

[Talia]

I think Armaddict's explanation of the staff-player relationship as a working relationship is really, really good.

I also don't really get where the paranoia about "one staffer ruining the game for me forever" comes from. There is no one staffer who is in day to day charge of everything in the game. If you don't like one Storyteller, it's very easy to play in an area where that person has little influence. For example, at present I can give my opinion on the northlands or the desert elves, but staffers there are under absolutely no obligation to listen to me. They can take someone on in a sponsored role that I don't like as a player, or with whom I've had problems as a staffer; that's their choice. And vice versa, southlands staff can put someone in a sponsored role that staff of another area don't like or have had problems with. Also, staff move around; you can be pretty sure that some staffer you've decided you don't like won't be in charge of an area forever. Your chance to play there without that person's eye on you will come.

Or, I can give my opinion on whether or not I think someone should be at karma level X when a Producer is doing an account notes review, but they have zero requirement to listen to me. Will they listen to my opinion and weigh it against their own opinion, and the opinions of other staffers? Yes, probably. This is why we communicate as a team, so that the best decisions can be reached, considered from many perspectives.

I guess it's possible that what you all mean is that Adhira, Nessalin, or Morgenes could forever stifle your chances of getting to do something in the game...but, seriously? That's not their job. They do overall game oversight. They have better things to do than watch the request queue constantly, just waiting for your request to come in so they can slap you down.

However, the problem comes in where personal judgments come into play, and not purely business ones.  I'm somewhat hesitant when it comes to karma reviews, when it comes to 'being watched' to be judged on my significance to the game.  The post from Adhira about Karma adjustments with requests for account notes makes me uneasy, because those were previously where I looked to find guidance on improvement, and now must worry that staff that do not have any relationship with me will take a look over those earlier years (I never made the mistake of trying to dodge bad notes by making a new account..it seemed untrustworthy) and wonder...'How the fuck does this guy have karma?'  In the case that you are merely a non-troublemaker, you rarely find yourself splurged with positive feedback...as you're purposely staying out of the way and purposely staying out of trouble.  You're trying not to be high-maintainence.

Long-ago poor notes really aren't weighed that heavily when it comes to the question of karma. What seems to matter is what you've been doing the past few to couple years. Also, to be honest, I haven't ever seen a staffer say, "Well, I HEARD this guy did..." For one thing, there are probably staff around who can speak for themselves about what you did, if you did something, because we have some staff who've been around for a long time. For another thing...well, I just don't see why a staffer would deliberately attempt to paint anyone poorly with hearsay, nor do I see why other staffers would accept it as valid evidence. That seems like an imagined outcome to me.

...

From my own personal experience as a player, all I can really say is that our staff are bigger than the opinions they hold of people, and they have the considered ability to give people chances. I wouldn't be on staff if they hadn't taken a risk on me; many staffers had misgivings about me. And, I wouldn't say they were wrong in what they thought about me nor about how I needed to grow as a player and person in order to do well at staffing. (People who are close to me in real life would also agree with some of the things that staff perceived about me.) I had some things that I'd done which I needed to work to get past with them, so what I did is listened to the feedback I'd received and made changes over time.

[Sam]

This has been an, oddly, mature discussion. I think the possibilities far outweigh the 'possible negatives.'

I wish I could show you my account notes. You would see first hand how one player can 'F' things up and still get by. I was accused of various things, by having a note attached to my account. A month later, another Immortal posted a rebuttal on my behalf. I didn't find out any of this until I requested my account notes later that year. The Administrators have good checks and balances in place these days. On my first account, ten years ago, it was much different and it felt like I was always getting harassed by the same immortal. Like they were following me around just to 'F' with me. I haven't seen anything near that problem with my current account.

I have seen people get harassed by the immortals, but let's face it. Those two each brought it on themselves by completely trying to game the system, power play, and be giant assholes. i haven't seen either of them in a while though.

[Desertman]

Having known several staff members on a personal out of character level over the years I can say that it is very much a common misconception that the staff are out to get you.

Keep in mind that staffers were once just normal players, just like you, and some of them even felt like the staff hated them at one point too.

Such is the nature of the beast. Where there is a hierarchy there will always be dissent, justified or not.

Staff may hate you, but the fact is, they can't do much to you without the consent of a governing body. Now, if the entire governing body hates you, well, stop being a douche, or just play mundanes/avoid playing in clans.

[Derain]

From my experience I have done some things I am not proud of and I have voiced this to the staff. Nyr has been more than fair with me even though I have let him down one or twice in the past.  They still have allowed me to make special applications and given me a fair shake in everything I have done since making my mistakes to be honest.

I could understand how you could feel snubbed for awhile but trust me even when you make mistakes I don't think they will hold a grudge, like someone else said Business relationships it's not personal.

Just my two sid'.
Derain.

[Reiloth]

I don't feel its a fair statement to say that anyone is assuming conspiracies, but more voicing opinions.

Someone suggested that a producer could be colluding with a lower staff member in order to back them up when complaints come up, and vice versa.  They wanted to know what staff would do about this. This is an opinion, yes.  It is also a conspiracy theory.  There is no validity to it.  At some point, it has to be called what it is:  silly.

If I had that particular problem myself I would deal with it through private channels, as Nyr suggested above, and likewise I have suggested to players who have let off steam in my presence that they do the same. That being said, none of the fellow players who mention their problems to me ever seem to get them resolved, regardless of their communications with staff.

You shouldn't feel bummed out.  If a player is venting to another player but never seems to get their "problems with staff" resolved, perhaps they're approaching the situation wrong.  Perhaps they are not actually approaching staff.  Perhaps they are, as I mentioned earlier, completely in the wrong, and distorting things to you entirely.  I do know that we can't do anything about hypothetical player friends with hypothetical problems.  I don't disbelieve you in this case--I'm not saying you don't have these friends with these problems, but I am saying that as far as we are concerned, they don't exist, because we don't know who they are. Hell, I dunno--tell me who these people are in a request.  If nothing else, I can assuage your bummed-out-ness by looking into each situation and offering a very, very vague "well, they're not telling you the entire truth" answer or even a "hmm, there's something up, here" answer.  Then it's up to you whether or not to believe me, and if they have a legitimate issue, it's up to them to work with us to address it.

It's a bit one-sided, and black and white as I said earlier Nyr, to say a player could be completely in the wrong. I think players can be woefully misinformed, or partially in the wrong, but the same can happen with Staff. I think the first step towards better communication between Staff and Players is to become less black and white when we speak or refer to each other. We as Players and Staff need to realize we're all human beings here. We make mistakes, we forget to use tact, we are sometimes right on, and other times, totally off base. But we have to stop using such extremes when speaking with each other as it just further alienates one side or the other. Staff always do this, Players are completely wrong, extremely negative, etc.

And as far as 'who these people are', I think this thread can be gone through without much scrutiny and it can be seen pretty clearly. I have clearly unresolved issues with Staff, and I don't know that any amount of private 'request' conversations can change that. I think time and distance will, and that's cool.

[Derain]

I can see where your coming from Reiloth, I had to remember to report before acting and try my hardest to check things in the docs after I made a couple of the mistakes i've made and distance and being quite awhile did help me.

[Morgenes]

It's a bit one-sided, and black and white as I said earlier Nyr, to say a player could be completely in the wrong. I think players can be woefully misinformed, or partially in the wrong, but the same can happen with Staff. I think the first step towards better communication between Staff and Players is to become less black and white when we speak or refer to each other. We as Players and Staff need to realize we're all human beings here. We make mistakes, we forget to use tact, we are sometimes right on, and other times, totally off base. But we have to stop using such extremes when speaking with each other as it just further alienates one side or the other. Staff always do this, Players are completely wrong, extremely negative, etc.

And as far as 'who these people are', I think this thread can be gone through without much scrutiny and it can be seen pretty clearly. I have clearly unresolved issues with Staff, and I don't know that any amount of private 'request' conversations can change that. I think time and distance will, and that's cool.

I don't believe there has been a single staff post that says 'all players always'.  We are all a diverse lot of people, each with our own set of ideas, thoughts, hopes, ideals and prejudices. As a staff, we strive to maintain a professional attitude both in game, and on the discussion boards.  This is part of the staff contract that every staff member has to agree to before becoming staff.  We are not all perfect, and we have all messed up, and when noted, it gets corrected and we move on.  Part of that is not wanting to air personal business on public channels.  We don't post on the GDB when we have to talk to a staff member about an issue, same as we don't post when we talk to players about issues.

It is each of your choice on how to communicate with staff, if you choose not to communicate, that is also your choice.  If you want to have a discussion about your particular situation (and I'm not directing this at any one of you, just in general), please put in a request and indicate you would like it to be reviewed by a producer.  We will be happy to talk over the issues you perceive and where we stand on it and what we would hope to see from you in the future if there is a problem.

[Derain]

Hm Morgenes I never though about just having a heart to heart with a producer, perhaps it isn't a bad idea.

[Kronibas]

If you think a staff member is being unfair, prejudiced based on former encounters, or uncouth, then you should submit a staff complaint, and one of the producers will take a look at the situation and hopefully give serious counsel to the offending staff member.  I did this recently, and the response I received from one of the Producers was timely and polite.  If one staff member receives many more staff complaints than other staffers, then I believe they should be demoted or put on a probationary period of sorts.  While on probation, maybe this staff member's ability to dispense/remove karma should be put on hold, perhaps along with other responsibilities

I honestly believe many staff members do a fine job at remaining objective.  Others do not.  For example, one staff member, who may or may not be posting in this very  thread, once told me (in an uncouth fashion) that I would never be allowed to play in one of their clans again after a disagreement between the two of us.  It sucks, but it happens.  People get pissed and hold grudges.  Players get pissed and hold grudges FOR A LONG TIME, and staff get pissed and hold grudges FOR A LONG TIME.  That's how the world is, and unfortunately the real world far-too-often spills into this wonderful game, which many of us have been playing for a five years, a decade, or longer.  I do not think this is a healthy trend, and I do not think those in positions of authority should hold grudges against players because it affects things like special roles, karma, etc.  It affects partiality. It's a real world problem, and it's an Armageddon problem.  What's a solution to this problem?  How about:  forgive and forget.  But that's easier said than done.

Staff come and go; the staff who are here now and who may not agree with your playing style may not be staff three months or three years from now.  If the bias of a single staff member is of concern to you, then please rest well knowing that other staff members may come along who do not have these biases; conversely, "fresh" staff members may think you're the hottest thing on the roleplaying circuit since Thrain Ironsword and likewise draw attention to or "discover" your prowess as a player of Armageddon.  The staff who granted me my original karma points (full karma) are long gone --- wayyy gone.  The only staff member to have removed a karma point from me is also gone -- at least from the forums.  I had spurned her romantic advances when we were players (I was a teenager and she was in her late twenties).  In fact, it was so creepy when we were players that I blocked her from my AIM list.  After that, she became a staff member and eventually removed one point of karma from my account for a debateable infraction.  Was this decision completely objective, or was it based on an all-too-personal grudge?  That's not to be debated here, but it happened and (to me) is proof of how players can suffer as the result of the "humanness" of staff.   That ancedote also demonstrates how staff members who grief you may not be around forever, allowing for more fresh perspectives through which your playing style may be evaluated.

I don't think most staff members hold these sorts of grudges.  At least, I woud hope not.  If they do - or if you perceive they do - then I think these instances should be reported to the Producers of the game.  Staff members who consistently are complained about should be put under more thorough scrutiny by the Producers, and players who consistently play outside of the staff's perception of "good roleplay" should be counseled and advised, not simply karma black-listed.

Having said that, I think the new karma system will have a great impact on moving away from this "karma/special roles black list" policy.  It is definitely a step in the right direction, and I applaud those who took the time to work out all the kinks.

[Nyr]

It's a bit one-sided, and black and white as I said earlier Nyr, to say a player could be completely in the wrong. I think players can be woefully misinformed, or partially in the wrong, but the same can happen with Staff. I think the first step towards better communication between Staff and Players is to become less black and white when we speak or refer to each other. We as Players and Staff need to realize we're all human beings here. We make mistakes, we forget to use tact, we are sometimes right on, and other times, totally off base. But we have to stop using such extremes when speaking with each other as it just further alienates one side or the other. Staff always do this, Players are completely wrong, extremely negative, etc.

And as far as 'who these people are', I think this thread can be gone through without much scrutiny and it can be seen pretty clearly. I have clearly unresolved issues with Staff, and I don't know that any amount of private 'request' conversations can change that. I think time and distance will, and that's cool.

Well, that's why I said "perhaps."  I was listing a series of possibilities.  I didn't list every possibility.

I looked over this thread and didn't see anyone here who had an issue where a player was not getting their issue resolved with staff.  I can see several where the issue was not resolved to the player's liking.  There is no "bad blood" in those cases.  There might be some bad notes.  If that's the problem, then I can't say there's a way to "bridge the gap," here.  The player needs to do better.

Even your "clearly unresolved issues with staff," as you put it, could actually be resolved if you actually talked to staff about them instead of posting about it here on the GDB.  If staff respond to your role application with a rejection stating that it was a tough choice, but that one of the things that stood out was your GDB conduct with regards to something that affected their trust of you, is the proper response really to bring that to the GDB as well?  How are you proving your trustworthiness?  I see no indication of you responding to that request, by the way--you brought it here.  If you replied via e-mail, well, we do prefer to have things in the request tool for several reasons, two of them being accountability and historical documentation.

When we have an issue with a player, we do not go the GDB about it.  We go to the player.  Do us the same courtesy that we do you, and come to staff if you have a problem, complaint, or question.

[Reiloth]

I don't see any documentation stating that I as a Player don't have the right to air my discontent with the Staff in a public fashion. Whether or not it does any good is a different story.

I also have no aspirations to cow to Staff if I honestly disagree with you, even if that disagreement is my GDB conduct. Sorry. If you do not like my GDB conduct, you can feel free to twit me.

[Morgenes]

I don't see any documentation stating that I as a Player don't have the right to air my discontent with the Staff in a public fashion. Whether or not it does any good is a different story.

From the Forum Rules post in the Staff Announcements forum:

1. Please don't flame. While you can criticize the opinions of other people, do so with respect for them as a fellow human.  Unneccessary, flaming, baiting and trolling will be removed and the instigator and respondees may have their posting privileges revoked.  This rule extends to criticism and baiting of staff. If you have a complaint against a staff member please place a complaint via the request tool, complaints and flaming of staff on the boards will not be tolerated.

Emphasis mine.

[Reiloth]

I also told myself I wouldn't keep posting in this thread, so i'll definitely stop. I promise!

Also -- Nyr -- I forgot that you can reply to closed requests. I'll do that.

[X-D]

Hey Morg, is that rule for criticizing  Staff as an entity as well as "staffers"?

Because I can understand it applying to Individual staffers, but if talking about staff as a whole then that sort of thing is exactly what this entire thread is about, or at least one entire paragraph of the OP.

Which is the FACT, not opinion, that players are not allowed to openly critisize staff as a whole or policy but only in a "locked room" Basis. IE Take it to the request tool, where You are alone and We (staff) as a group can go over what you (alone) Think, then we, as a group will come up with some sort of answer, which we don't expect you to air openly.

Now, from the staff side this might seem perfectly reasonable and professional, but as others have stated, we are all people and people tend to feel ganged up on when they are forced to go up against a group alone...actually, I think that is the definition of being ganged up on.

[Sunburned]

Let me repeat what I think is the most important part of my original post:

I think that the relationship between staff and players needs to be more cooperative, and that its good to keep in mind that MUDing is a dying game form - when we lose a player, or staff, thats one person, with years of valuable experience, we're not getting back.

When I wrote this, what I had in mind is pretty simple - there's plenty of work to be done on the current incarnation of Arm, and there's absolutely no reason why all that work must be on the backs of the staff.  I'd like to see players take more initiative in updating clan documentation, for one.

I think that if there were more official avenues for players and staff to work together in building/creating/writing for this game, a lot of the old bitterness (if relevant) could be worked through.  Its about a shared investment and turning passions to constructive ends, while improving our game world.

[Reiloth]

-

[Cutthroat]

Let me repeat what I think is the most important part of my original post:

I think that the relationship between staff and players needs to be more cooperative, and that its good to keep in mind that MUDing is a dying game form - when we lose a player, or staff, thats one person, with years of valuable experience, we're not getting back.

When I wrote this, what I had in mind is pretty simple - there's plenty of work to be done on the current incarnation of Arm, and there's absolutely no reason why all that work must be on the backs of the staff.  I'd like to see players take more initiative in updating clan documentation, for one.

I think that if there were more official avenues for players and staff to work together in building/creating/writing for this game, a lot of the old bitterness (if relevant) could be worked through.  Its about a shared investment and turning passions to constructive ends, while improving our game world.

This already has happened to some extent. Players could write for staff:
- When staff call for item/tattoo submissions on the GDB (this doesn't happen a lot, but it happens often enough to be noticeable and a lot of people get an opportunity to write if they want to)
- When players are crafting an item (e.g., mastercrafts)
- When rooms are being added to the game or changed by the player's PC (this has happened in the past year).
- When documentation is needed (ever notice the player names credited at the end of public or sometimes clan documentation? Yeah, some haven't been updated in a while, but it's happened before)
- On a whim (Staff also gave us the player collaboration forum which allows us to write documentation more easily than ever before. Sadly, it is pretty underutilized.)

So there is actually plenty of opportunities to get cracking on writing for the game.

Edited for clarification

[Talia]

I would gladly submit pages upon pages of clan documentation to be reviewed, edited, denied, and accepted by Staff.

OK, so, do it?

Is there a rule somewhere that states players must always await directive from staff before offering to work on something? I'm pretty sure not. Do we have a current policy in place where plots, projects, and initiatives come from player side? Yes, we do.

Often I think the only thing that gets in the way of players doing what they so vociferously state they want to do is themselves. Waiting around for staff to say, for example, "Hey dudes let's update the Byn documents" isn't necessary. If you're in the Byn and want to help update the docs, well, propose that to your clan staff.

Stop having an oppositional defiant relationship with staff and start having a collaborative one.

I wonder if you guys also think that I wait around for my Admin to tell me what to do in the game or for my clans? Nope, I don't. Rather, I propose stuff, they say yes/no/maybe/modify, then after reaching consensus I proceed to plan. Very rarely an Admin or Producer might actually direct me to do something in particular, and usually that's got to do with solving a problem rather than initiating work.

[Nyr]

I have frequently solicited documentation questions from people in the clans that I'm working over and have used that to provide documentation both in the past and currently.  (One of those clans--you know who you are--got a lot of documentation updated recently.)  Unfortunately, not all documentation stuff done is public, though, and many of those things are left to those clan boards.  We do have a submissions forum for things if we need them (for either game, too).

Open up dialogue with a question request if nothing else.  (It does help if you're playing in the clan in question.)  Now, it may be that your stuff gets taken and just put aside for review later--sometimes other projects take priority.

Do you mean that we need another way to recognize players that have contributed to something, or another way for them to contribute?  I want to be sure we're on the same page!

[X-D]

I do have to say.

On clan docs, it has been my experience that staff is  receptive if not downright happy when players help.

I've left my fingerprint on several clans over the years...sometimes an entire handprint. And I've seen many other players do the same.

Usually all it takes is.

Hey, I think this and this should be fleshed out, I have ideas for it, and that should be revamped totally, I have ideas on that too.

Usually the answer will be You have Ideas, Lets hear em!