Discussion Thread: Karma Changes

[Adhira]

Yes, there may be points of contention with this system.  But there are points of contention now.

As always awarding karma is at the discretion of staff.

I've no doubt that there will be a learning curve here for players and staff alike.  This may result in some changes to the system as we go.  Already today, due to player feedback we've adjusted the category names slightly, this is a good thing.  As we get the code in place and working we'll be able to give you a better idea of how exactly it will work, for now you have the blueprint we're working on.  When we have everything firmly in place the webpage will reflect exactly how the system will work.

[X-D]

That is actually a point I agree on.

Longevity, I got that.
Good communication Alright, I'm not great on that but I don't forget the needed reports, 1 point
Ability to roleplay, I think I'm fun and interesting to most.. it's the reason I'm here after all. And gotten my share of kudos There's three.
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world, Four.
Proven understandings of cultural and racial structures, no account notes about this but as I've played some cultural roles with no negative opinions from staff, Five.
Contributes to the game, I'd like to think so. I've done tribal crafts and helped with tons of bugs by bringing them into the light and then being used as a test dummy etc Also, I've received some kudos from players that I'm proud of and been involved in a lot of neat plots that encompassed tons of people. Helped with many docs six.
Leadership, wow, I've played a TON of leaders. Some very famous and well known. Seven. Bank.

Where's my nilazi, kthx.

Edited for me:)

[Adhira]

Player view - Staff view.  There will likely always be a difference.

[X-D]

True enough.

And so, as you said.

Yes, there may be points of contention with this system.  But there are points of contention now.

As always awarding karma is at the discretion of staff.

So, in the end, no matter what is posted on how karma should be awarded..or not, all it takes is a single staffer not liking you or your play for whatever reason to see you stuck in the karma limbo for all time.

Which makes me wonder why you even bother posting such things.

I mean really.

Hey, this is the official karma reward system...Oh, but we don't have to follow it.

[Taven]

•In which category of karma grading can you only have one point in?

Previously mentioned - longevity.

Sorry, I missed this somewhere in the pages. Thanks for recapping it! 

•Can you spend skills to boost the cap of a skill, rather then changing what level you start with?

Skills cannot advance beyond the skill cap for the guild.

Okay, so something like a master tailor like was mentioned in the announcement would be an actual extended guild option, rather then something you spent points on to get it to be master. I think that's reasonable, considering there are some skills that you don't want maxed in some guild combinations, for the purpose of game balance.

•If you spend enough points to master a skill, you automatically branch it off (assuming it branches), right?

Skill bumps will not auto branch you.

Okay, so let's say I want to spend a bunch of skills to boost my "pooper scooper" level to master, and I know that the "pooper scooper" skill branches into the "poop crafting" skill. If I spend those points, I WILL be a master in pooper scooper, but I WON'T branch from it. So when do I branch and get the skill "poop crafting," if my "pooper scooper" starts at master?

Also, can you do master crafting item submissions right away, if you app a PC who starts out with a crafting skill at master?

•When will we get to hear more about the extended subguild options? These sound pretty awesome.

I haven't decided.  Most likely this will be once I've created the helpfiles.  As for any guild/subguild type information we won't be discussing anything beyond what is included in the helpfiles.

I vote sooner rather then later, because I am curious and this sounds really neat. As to the information provided, it sounds like the normal rules on discussing any guilds, so nothing new there. 

[Case]

I'm far too much of a coder:

If you make a spec app and it's accepted... say you get a nilazi and you have 4 karma. I assume that taking it will drop available karma to 3?

[Majikal]

So, in the end, no matter what is posted on how karma should be awarded..or not, all it takes is a single staffer not liking you or your play for whatever reason to see you stuck in the karma limbo for all time.

Which makes me wonder why you even bother posting such things.

I mean really.

Hey, this is the official karma reward system...Oh, but we don't have to follow it.

And thus, the staff vs player circuit continues, just a new race track. X-D gets it.  

[Adhira]

Actually having a system makes it less likely that a single staffer will bork your karma forever more. Staff will follow the system, it's there for us to use. But it is up to staff to decide if you meet the criteria, not up to players to tell us they meet them.  Staff's viewpoint is what will be used when making decisions on karma. Staff's viewpoint will be based on the criteria we have for each of the categories that we have identifed.   By listing the categories we hope that at least players will have  better idea of what staff is looking at when we are awarding karma.  Believe it or not we want to make things better for players, not worse, and we want to make sure that they're not subject to the whim of one person.  

If you don't like what I post then feel free to ignore it and continue on as you have been.   Posting snarky comments in response is not going to make things any different.

[Cutthroat]

Well, there seems to be a misunderstanding of official staff guidelines vs. a checklist of sorts for players.

A checklist is what this idea is not. Instead, it seems to be a means of controlling staff members over the possible reasons to reward karma. Karma will be rewarded up to two times for any of these reasons, except for longevity where it will be rewarded once. It's not about proving you are good at a certain point of criterion, it's about staff seeing how well you are matching up with it over the months/years.

In other words, it's not "I do this, this and this great. Staff even said so. I can has mul?"
It's about staff being able to say, we are giving you +1 karma, and this is why: (one of the listed reasons) as opposed to a bunch of reasons at once or vague reasons.

And I suspect they released this information because players long ago were calling to see the staff side of things. I far prefer this method, where Adhira has been very patient with our queries, vs. the system suddenly and secretly changing.

[X-D]

Not meant to be snark Adhira. At least mine was not.

The posting of the way karma is to be working, at least as far as getting it got my hopes up that it was to be more fair and be looked at more often. Because Several of the things on the list I really do qualify for, and I really do not see how even any of staff can argue the point, though if I thought that was the case, I really would ask for the review, at least to get back some of the karma that I have lost, wrongfully mind you since it was lost in out of context actions. And even though when explained nobody ever argued the point, it was never returned.

But later posts from you after being questioned at least SEEMED to say, No, nothing is really going to change, at least not an actual improvement.

But now you say, Yes, we really are working to make it more fairly awarded...So, I will play wait and see, like I do on many things here, and when you or another staffer posts saying this system is fully in action for the karma awarding I will ask for a review on the matter and see what happens.

In short, If you say you all are really working for the betterment of players then I will take your word for it till shown otherwise.

[lordcooper]

This sounds utterly brilliant and may well bring a lot more variety to the game.  Good stuff

[Sunburned]

My personal opinion on the change in the karma system, is that it's going to fall flat on its face. I wish it would work and we could find a balance but most players only see the good parts of their RP and staff isn't always there to watch, what was once blamed on staff not paying enough attention, shit luck, playtimes, the 'I don't play enough leaders' excuse etc will now have a very subjective list of guidelines which players will be arguing that they meet and a neglect of their karma will now be translated into them feeling unappreciated.

Longevity, I got that.
Good communication, I'm well above the average I think and don't miss needed reports to clan staff. That's two.
Ability to roleplay, I think I'm fun and interesting to most.. it's the reason I'm here after all. There's three.
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world, yup, staff has even given me props on this. Four.
Proven understandings of cultural and racial structures, no account notes about this but as I've played some cultural roles with no negative opinions from staff, despite even asking for them. Five.
Contributes to the game, I'd like to think so. I've done tribal crafts and helped with tons of bugs by bringing them into the light and then being used as a test dummy etc Also, I've received some kudos from players that I'm proud of and been involved in a lot of neat plots that encompassed tons of people. Let's call that six.
Leadership, wow, I've played a TON of leaders. Some very famous and well known. Seven. Bank.

Where's my sorc/mul, kthx.

This is what I feel/fear is going to happen and it's only going to further draw the line between staff and players. I'm also a negative person, can ya tell?

I think this is a pretty courageous - and excellent - point.

I firmly believe there are longstanding faith issues between players (namely long-term players) and staff that need to get worked out before a system like this will be succesful without raising animosity.  We have a line drawn in the sand, and on one side, you have a player that's invested 10 years in Armageddon, and on one side, you have a staffer.
   
Its entitlement vs. entitlement.
   
When staff make judgments that players disagree with, and players try to express that disagreement, we are judged by the belief that we are reacting simply because it is a knee-jerk reaction to suffering individual consequences, and that we have little actual interest in the policies of the game.
   
I believe this is the culture of distrust and assumption of selfishness that permeates the staff view of players. And when a long-term respected player takes a kick from the staff, either to their karma or whatever, the veteran Arm community being a group of friends, we begin to feel like we are all suffering an injustice. Every time a poor decision is upheld to maintain staff credence, it becomes a shared frustration because it is representative of every other time its happened.
   
Solutions won't be discussed on the GDB, because it is a place of battling rhetoric; there is the belief that we risk too much in speaking candidly, because experience has taught us that dissent is something that affects our IG opportunties. And when a player tries to make their case to staff, we cast our words beyond a veil - it is our word alone against any number of contributing staff members. We have no advocates and no alternatives. Its expected that you don't share your issue with fellow players, or discuss it on the GDB. The staff can speak as a unified voice, while the player must keep their complaint private.
   
And on the other side...
   
I've never been on staff, but I can't imagine how demanding and impatient players must seem.
   
When you're volunteering 20+ hours a week, doing work that's largely just holding ground to keep the game functional and populated, and your efforts remain largely unseen, its probably a heap of hot coals when players start insisting that you're not doing enough to make the world vibrant and active. And everytime players bitch when they get policed about exploiting something in the game for the 100th time, they don't realize that the staff saw the 99 other times and were patient enough to see if the player figured it out for themselves.
   
Players don't come from the view of status quo, because they simply have no idea how much work it takes to keep things running smoothly, and that staff don't want to spend their time docking karma or forcing storage.
   
I think that the relationship between staff and players needs to be more cooperative, and that its good to keep in mind that MUDing is a dying game form - when we lose a player, or staff, thats one person, with years of valuable experience, we're not getting back.

[number13]

Sounds mostly awesome. I'd roll a character right now if it were already implemented.

The karma for skill bumps is the improvement I'm most interested in, but... The selected skill is bumped up to the next "level" (apprentice--> journeyman) per point spent? It would be a terrible deal to spend four karma points to get contact and ride up to journeyman.  I can't think of many skills that I would expend karma to bump up a single level. The system as it stands, if I understand it, still locks a new character (even if he's 50 IG years old) into sucking at the basics for the first three to five days of playtime.

I suggest that not all skills receive the same bump per karma investment, or that a package for basic competence is offered at a low price.

A side note, if skill bump investment occurs during character generation (opposed to, say, in the Hall), then a person with a single point of karma could use it to scum through the class and subclasses and see what skills are offered.

[Reiloth]

My personal opinion on the change in the karma system, is that it's going to fall flat on its face. I wish it would work and we could find a balance but most players only see the good parts of their RP and staff isn't always there to watch, what was once blamed on staff not paying enough attention, shit luck, playtimes, the 'I don't play enough leaders' excuse etc will now have a very subjective list of guidelines which players will be arguing that they meet and a neglect of their karma will now be translated into them feeling unappreciated.

Longevity, I got that.
Good communication, I'm well above the average I think and don't miss needed reports to clan staff. That's two.
Ability to roleplay, I think I'm fun and interesting to most.. it's the reason I'm here after all. There's three.
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world, yup, staff has even given me props on this. Four.
Proven understandings of cultural and racial structures, no account notes about this but as I've played some cultural roles with no negative opinions from staff, despite even asking for them. Five.
Contributes to the game, I'd like to think so. I've done tribal crafts and helped with tons of bugs by bringing them into the light and then being used as a test dummy etc Also, I've received some kudos from players that I'm proud of and been involved in a lot of neat plots that encompassed tons of people. Let's call that six.
Leadership, wow, I've played a TON of leaders. Some very famous and well known. Seven. Bank.

Where's my sorc/mul, kthx.

This is what I feel/fear is going to happen and it's only going to further draw the line between staff and players. I'm also a negative person, can ya tell?

I think this is a pretty courageous - and excellent - point.

I firmly believe there are longstanding faith issues between players (namely long-term players) and staff that need to get worked out before a system like this will be succesful without raising animosity.  We have a line drawn in the sand, and on one side, you have a player that's invested 10 years in Armageddon, and on one side, you have a staffer.
   
Its entitlement vs. entitlement.
   
When staff make judgments that players disagree with, and players try to express that disagreement, we are judged by the belief that we are reacting simply because it is a knee-jerk reaction to suffering individual consequences, and that we have little actual interest in the policies of the game.
   
I believe this is the culture of distrust and assumption of selfishness that permeates the staff view of players. And when a long-term respected player takes a kick from the staff, either to their karma or whatever, the veteran Arm community being a group of friends, we begin to feel like we are all suffering an injustice. Every time a poor decision is upheld to maintain staff credence, it becomes a shared frustration because it is representative of every other time its happened.
   
Solutions won't be discussed on the GDB, because it is a place of battling rhetoric; there is the belief that we risk too much in speaking candidly, because experience has taught us that dissent is something that affects our IG opportunties. And when a player tries to make their case to staff, we cast our words beyond a veil - it is our word alone against any number of contributing staff members. We have no advocates and no alternatives. Its expected that you don't share your issue with fellow players, or discuss it on the GDB. The staff can speak as a unified voice, while the player must keep their complaint private.
   
And on the other side...
   
I've never been on staff, but I can't imagine how demanding and impatient players must seem.
   
When you're volunteering 20+ hours a week, doing work that's largely just holding ground to keep the game functional and populated, and your efforts remain largely unseen, its probably a heap of hot coals when players start insisting that you're not doing enough to make the world vibrant and active. And everytime players bitch when they get policed about exploiting something in the game for the 100th time, they don't realize that the staff saw the 99 other times and were patient enough to see if the player figured it out for themselves.
   
Players don't come from the view of status quo, because they simply have no idea how much work it takes to keep things running smoothly, and that staff don't want to spend their time docking karma or forcing storage.
   
I think that the relationship between staff and players needs to be more cooperative, and that its good to keep in mind that MUDing is a dying game form - when we lose a player, or staff, thats one person, with years of valuable experience, we're not getting back.

I think this could lead to a dangerous derail. Could you possibly start a new thread with this post Sunburned? I have plenty to say, but don't want to derail this thread.

[Dalmeth]

I'm looking forward to this.  The staff themselves seem to be eager to open up a few options, and so long as they are willing and able to resolve serious problems, any system will work just fine.

Finally, I'll be able to app that Thryzn I've always wanted...

[Sunburned]

As requested by Reiloth...

Derail:http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41936.0.html

[Clavis]

My question is with this new system and the ability to bump a skill, what about those saps out their myself included that haven't played a certain guild, yet have some karma to spend to bump a skill so it doesn't start out where you have to spend days/weeks/ to get something useful? or would we just have to wait when we roll up another character, or will their be an option in the hall of kings to bump it up like an npc or something?

[janeshephard]

I'm also a negative person, can ya tell?

We're getting new subguilds -- and the cost? A karma system with some "at cost" options that regenerate over time.

[ianmartin]

Thank you staff for the time you put into this, I'd like to see the changes before I comment on this, but MANY thanks for making changes and re-energizing the game.

[Dalmeth]

Want any help writing those help files?   

[HavokBlue]

I didn't like the concept of spending karma at first, but the potential for so many new character options makes up for it.

[Kol]

I'm looking forward to this

[Bacon]

So, in the end, no matter what is posted on how karma should be awarded..or not, all it takes is a single staffer not liking you or your play for whatever reason to see you stuck in the karma limbo for all time.

I don't think this was intended as snarky myself but I see as a reasonable point. I believe most players biggest concern regarding karma is personal favoritism of a staffer or prejudice of a staff member in regards to karma. I don't think this system addresses this issue. Although I do see it as a positive step in regards to improving the karma system. Having been with the game for a long time, I know that there are players I may have pissed off out of the game, that got on staff and hold a grudge against me. Or other players who were buddies with someone that gets on staff and get nothing but positive attention in regards to karma, etc. What will be put in place to address/reduce the likelyhood of this happening?
Perhaps there should be a policy in place regarding cycling through which staffers make the decisions regarding karma for each player in turn? I don't know exactly but it is a concern that many players have regarding karma and with the purpose of improving the karma system and player/staff relations in mind, should be given thought to addressing other than: "We're flawless staff and don't do that, we swear." being given as the answer. No snark at all intended but I think it's something that needs to be given thought and discussed in regards to a "karma" system for any game run by human beings.


Edit: And a karma option for extra bacon would be good too.   Also, not sure which thread this one really belongs in so I'll put it in both.

[Akoto]

I hesitate to provide feedback on this, partly due to the fear of reprisal referenced by a previous poster. My passion about this subject surpasses self-preservation, however, and so ...

There are aspects of this plan I like. It always appeals to me when the diversity of options available to players is expanded. New experiences keep things fresh for us, which is good for the health of the game. The new 'expanded sub-guild' idea is fine by me.

What I don't like at all is this idea of karma being 'spent' when we choose guild options which are permanent under the current system. A lot of players have spent years building up reputations, proving themselves to be valuable participants in the process. We've always been told that the granting of karma is not only a show of trust, but a reward, for we are then allowed to play certain restricted roles at our own leisure. No need to specapp and wait, as staff believes you can handle it and do well each time. Under the new system, that will be gone.

Karma and the effort required to earn it is, I believe, devalued under this proposed system. You cash in to play an expensive role, and you'd better hope some newbie doesn't come along and kill it early, because you won't get another shot for months. You may not even be able to play something close to what you lost. In effect, karma becomes nothing more than extra special applications, the guaranteed approval offset by that same maddening specapp wait period - which will look modest compared to some of the 'regen' waits.

I would be happier if the currently permanent options remained so. Perhaps the new choices could function on the currency system, as they expand caps and/or fundamentally change the playstyle of certain guilds (ie warriors with magick).

On a personal level, having the variety of choices that I do is crucial, as I play quite a lot. Like many players, I'm in poor health and have derived benefits beyond measure from having access to much beloved options, particularly after RL stressful character deaths. Yes, I play lots of mages, too. So, I'll not deny bias here. I just hope overall this aspect is considered.

[Reiloth]

Hopefully, this system change will allow Staff to break down a character's overall place in the world. When you play higher karma guilds, you gain great scrutiny by Staff into your actions. I believe that long-lived rangers should have as much scrutiny as a psion, for instance. Both can achieve a great level of disproportionate power that requires great responsibility to control properly. Unfortunately, such is not the case; the max'd Ranger's motives and explanations of actions will not require as much scrutiny Staffside. Overall -- Psions are a class that are much easier to abuse, and have been abused consistently in the past. A Psion can easily shift another player's experience from great to terrible. They can also enhance the gameworld just as easily, drawing people into fantastic plots. I hope this allows for the Staff to easily keep track of the max'd ranger's activities as well as the special app psion/sorc.