Discussion Thread: Karma Changes

[X-D]

So thats why mine never changes, I never ask for account notes.


Hey, can we get a review without account notes?

And still, I'm not agreeing with this system.

So, Somebody has say 5 karma, they make a ruk, add nothing extra. How much karma do they lose? Two?

If so, alright, the ruk lasts for 2 weeks. They now have only 3 karma, They can play another ruk or HG and not lose more karma, But they cannot play a 4 or 5 karma guild even though they technicly have the karma for it and played something lower to begin with. But instead, they have to either play something they don't want to play or sit around without playing for who knows how long till the karma regens back to the level where they could play that whiran or whatever.

[Adhira]

Also no, we won't be implementing a 2 tier system where if you happend to earn karma before the system came in you never have to spend those.  Everyone will be on the same karma system. Consider it a perk that you get to start with karma rather than a zero point reset.

[X-D]

So
Anything at or below 3 karma, assuming you do not spend any on skills etc, Costs you no karma, even if you have say 8 karma?

[Adhira]

Correct.

[Cutthroat]

I don't think you're spending on guilds, or on normal subguilds. The only two options listed are spending on "extended subguilds" and skill boosts.

From what I've seen in this thread, this is how it seems like it will be working:
Say you have K karma.
Guilds are free, but you still need to meet a karma requirement for some (the current method).
Normal subguilds are free.
You have K - 3 points to spend on extended subguilds. If that's 0 or less, you don't qualify for extended subguilds. Thus, you need 4 karma to buy the first extended subguilds.
You have K - 1 points to spend on skill boosts. If that's 0 or less you don't qualify for skill boosts. Thus, you need 1 karma to buy a skill boost.

If you spent X points, you get them back 1 at a time, once per month, until you're back to K karma.

I hope that's right, but from what I'm reading from Adhira in this thread and the staff announcement, that's how it seems to be.

[Zoltan]

I'm so excited for this. The answer to my prayers since being stuck in the casual zone as of late. I can't wait for it to be in effect!

[X-D]

Nope, She just said, 3 and lower on guilds/races is free, above costs.


Also, Adhira, what about the other only slightly off topic question? Can you get a review WITHOUT asking for account notes?

[Lizzie]

Nope, She just said, 3 and lower on guilds/races is free, above costs.


Also, Adhira, what about the other only slightly off topic question? Can you get a review WITHOUT asking for account notes?

Heh that's why I don't ever ask for a karma review. I'm too chicken to ask for my account notes. I'd really rather not see them. But a karma review might be useful.

[Adhira]

Yes, as per usual staff can review accounts as they please.  Anecdotally staff usually do this when a pc dies, when there are player complaints, when you do really awesome things, when they have an itch.

Cutthroat you are close to right, but not quite.

Key points

- Karma will never reduce below 1 point
- Karma guilds at points 1, 2 and 3 do not incur any cost. Choosing one of these guilds will not make you 'spend' karma point.
- Karma guilds at 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 will incue a cost to varying degrees. Karma will never drop below 3 points when creating a higher level karma character.
- Karma points can be spent on skill boosts.  1 point will equate to 1 'mastery' level.  You may not boost a weapons skill more than 2 mastery levels. You may not boost offense and defense.
- Karma points can be spent on extended subguild options.  These will be available at varying point costs.
- Karma points will regenerate at 1 point per month after they are 'spent' up to the full amount of karma on your account.

[roughneck]

Will I have to hire a karma accountant?  What are the penalties if I file my karma return late?

I appreciate that the staff is working to have a standardized and more clearly understood approach to the karma system.  While it's not necessarily the exact set of criteria I would have come up with I don't think it is going to retract anything from the game and hopefully encourage people to behaviour that will add to it.  My only hope is that people play to make the game fun, not play to earn karma that they believe will make it fun for them.  Fun is my only criteria.  If your pc isn't fun, you don't get shit from me.  Because that's all I really have to give anyways, shit.

It seems like a lot of thought went into this.  Thanks.

[Titania]

At least I will get 1 karma for longevity.

When you say Boost a skill to a mastery level what do you mean?

Does it boost a skill to Master level and then you can boost it to some other master level?

Or is it one boost to journeyman then another to advanced and another to mastery?

[Cutthroat]

Ah, that makes sense, Adhira. The part about the guilds costing points wasn't entirely clear in the staff announcement post, though it seems like a good way to keep rare things rare. I stand corrected!

At least I will get 1 karma for longevity.

When you say Boost a skill to a mastery level what do you mean?

Does it boost a skill to Master level and then you can boost it to some other master level?

Or is it one boost to journeyman then another to advanced and another to mastery?

I think one point boosts one level. So going from Novice to apprentice, then to journeyman, then to advanced, then to master at the start of play would cost 4 points.

[Adhira]

Cutthroat is correct with the mastery information.

Also yes, the guild cost was not clear, sorry about that, the eventual webpage with karma information we'll be sure to make that clear.

[Intrepid]

Ok, this is perhaps a silly question, but--what about the possibility of a cumulative combo?

I apply for additional points and make a half-giant rukkian, as an extreme example, with two skill boosts.  Would that count as 7 points?

[Adhira]

Stop making my head hurt.   

In your example that would be two points.  But, I'm not going to keep answering these kinds of questions on possible character builds, character application will make it pretty clear what options are available as you build your pc.  We wil lhave helpfiles available at the time, this should help with this. 

[Intrepid]

Stop making my head hurt.   

Sowwy.   Ok, I totally understand now.  Thank you, Adhira!

[Taven]

Taven's Understanding of the New Karma System

How Karma is Awarded

Karma is awarded on a mix of the following categories:

• Longevity - This is how long you've been playing the game, without doing something bad. If you've been playing ages, you get points!
• Good communication - This is being clear and polite when communicating with staff, and making an effort to do so as needed or regularly
• Ability to roleplay - This is more then just emoting, but is taking the game world into account. It may also mean playing in more then one location, and having a variety of character types (IE, not all your characters have the same personality and guild)
• Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world - You do NOT need to play a magicker for this. This means rather that you understand how magick is viewed in society. You don't go around treating gemmers like normal people for no reason, and you don't talk about how awesome magick is in Tuluk (more complex, but you get the basic idea)
• Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures - This could be about understanding how Tuluk is subtle, or how elves and breeds are perceived in the world. It might be also playing a good character of a specific race or in a specific culture (for example, an elf doing tests of trust, etc)
• Contributes to the game - This could be a variety of things. Does your character add to the game, either by making plots or by providing people with interesting RP? Are you as a player contributing (for example when staff has calls for submissions)? That sort of thing.
• Leadership - This is for leadership in general, not clan leadership. If you are a low level nobody but plan a lot of events for your clan, or an indie who works to lead and coordinate, that would count

You won't get details on exact criteria karma is awarded for, but you will get an indication of which areas (for example "Awarded karma point for longevity"). While you can special app to have an addition 3 points of karma if you hit the maximum, the maximum will still continue to be 8 points. Any of the above categories can have upto two points, except in logevity, where you can only have one (updated for accuracy). Karma will be reviewed when players request their account notes (although it can also be reviewed at staff discretion). It will be possible to lose karma or gain it, so be aware of this before requesting account notes.

Karma Spending Details

Things that Do Not Cost Karma

• Karma guilds at points 1, 2 and 3 - These do not incur any cost. Choosing one of these guilds will not make you spend any karma points

Things that Do Cost Karma

• Extended Subguilds (point cost varies) - this includes magick subguilds, and mastercraft subguilds (such as mastercrafting in tailoring)
• Skill Bumps (one point per level bump) - You spend karma to raise a starting skill. You may not boost a weapons skill more than 2 mastery levels. You may not boost offense and defense.
• Guilds at the 4-8 Karma ranking (point costs varies, karma level will not drop below 3 points) - This would be Whirans, Krathi, Elkrosians, Drovians, Sorcerers, and Psionicists

Think of it like an Armageddon prompt item (stamina, hp, or mana points). You might have 6/6 Karma, and then spend 3 to play a magicker. You now have 3/6 Karma, and will regenerate the karma spent at one point per month, or three months. If your "scores" (IE your karma ranking) gets better, this is reflected in your Karma points. You might then have 7 Karma. Karma regenerates while you are playing, naturally over time. However, if your karma PC dies before your points are regenerated, you will not have them to spend. You will never go below 1 karma point (think of it like if these were stun points, you'd never pass out).

Old characters will not be adjusted for new guilds, and are stuck being what they are. There is no ETA for the karma change.




Let me know if any of the above is incorrect, please!

Questions

• In which category of karma grading can you only have one point in?
• Do you spend karma on races, or only guilds?
• Can you spend skills to boost the cap of a skill, rather then changing what level you start with?
• If you spend enough points to master a skill, you automatically branch it off (assuming it branches), right?
• When will we get to hear more about the extended subguild options? These sound pretty awesome.

[Intrepid]

Things that Do Cost Karma

Looks good Taven.  Just don't forget: Muls cost karma too.

[Adhira]

•In which category of karma grading can you only have one point in?

Previously mentioned - longevity.

•Do you spend karma on races, or only guilds?

Karma spent is on races and guilds.  ie Muls will be chosen with a karma 'cost'

•Can you spend skills to boost the cap of a skill, rather then changing what level you start with?

Skills cannot advance beyond the skill cap for the guild.

•If you spend enough points to master a skill, you automatically branch it off (assuming it branches), right?

Skill bumps will not auto branch you.

•When will we get to hear more about the extended subguild options? These sound pretty awesome.

I haven't decided.  Most likely this will be once I've created the helpfiles.  As for any guild/subguild type information we won't be discussing anything beyond what is included in the helpfiles.

[Sunburned]

Question related to skill bumping:

If you requested a bump to ride, for example, and the guild's cap was JM, would your cap AND skill immediately improve to advanced, or just your cap hit advanced and your character would have to work their way up to the new cap?

[Adhira]

There will not be an option to bump something beyond the cap for your guild.  Guild caps will not be changeable with this system.

[oklenny]

• Leadership - This is for leadership in general, not clan leadership. If you are a low level nobody but plan a lot of events for your clan, or an indie who works to lead and coordinate, that would count

hope sooooo

[IntuitiveApathy]

I think this is a great change as well, especially for the more casual players (which I'm trying very hard to -not- be  ).

It sounds like it's taking a lot from the system that was talked about for Arm 2.0, so I'm guessing this is a way of testing that out ahead of time.  I know there was a lot of concern about increasing the frequency of magick through hybrid-guild characters (I'm among the concerned), but I do like how it's being tied to karma now, especially with the extended period for point regeneration.

Thought this might be useful for you guys reading the thread and thinking about the points and what not:

1 karma - desert elf
2 karma - water and stone elementalist
3 karma - half giant
4 karma - wind and fire elementalist
5 karma - lightning and shadow elementalist
6 karma - void elementalist
7 karma - mul
8 karma - psi and sorcerer

[mansa]

when this get implemented i'm going to make a fire ball assassin in ur face.

no seriously.

[Majikal]

My personal opinion on the change in the karma system, is that it's going to fall flat on its face. I wish it would work and we could find a balance but most players only see the good parts of their RP and staff isn't always there to watch, what was once blamed on staff not paying enough attention, shit luck, playtimes, the 'I don't play enough leaders' excuse etc will now have a very subjective list of guidelines which players will be arguing that they meet and a neglect of their karma will now be translated into them feeling unappreciated.

Longevity, I got that.
Good communication, I'm well above the average I think and don't miss needed reports to clan staff. That's two.
Ability to roleplay, I think I'm fun and interesting to most.. it's the reason I'm here after all. There's three.
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world, yup, staff has even given me props on this. Four.
Proven understandings of cultural and racial structures, no account notes about this but as I've played some cultural roles with no negative opinions from staff, despite even asking for them. Five.
Contributes to the game, I'd like to think so. I've done tribal crafts and helped with tons of bugs by bringing them into the light and then being used as a test dummy etc Also, I've received some kudos from players that I'm proud of and been involved in a lot of neat plots that encompassed tons of people. Let's call that six.
Leadership, wow, I've played a TON of leaders. Some very famous and well known. Seven. Bank.

Where's my sorc/mul, kthx.

This is what I feel/fear is going to happen and it's only going to further draw the line between staff and players. I'm also a negative person, can ya tell?