Discussion Thread: Karma Changes

[Armaddict]

I believe most players biggest concern regarding karma is personal favoritism of a staffer or prejudice of a staff member in regards to karma. I don't think this system addresses this issue.

After a long time running and a lot of personal experience with it (through discussion and my own accusations and the aftermath), I realize this is a concern for people.  But it really shouldn't be.  It's an issue that doesn't need to be addressed.  As per my post in the derail thread...business relationships are the rule here, not personal ones.  If someone appears to have favoritism, it isn't favoritism.  They've been doing something that is very good.

Personal favoritism or personal grudges among the staff I'm sure occur from -time to time-, but not often at all, and it seems to get aggressively pushed out of the picture.  It doesn't go unnoticed, particularly as more characters are made and differing opinions come around.

[Dalmeth]

I don't think this system addresses this issue.

There is no system that addresses refusal to follow the rules.

[Feco]

I like it.  The subguild bit will be a great tool for karma+ players to flesh out their characters in interesting (and oft times, difficult to play [see, fun]) ways.

[Qzzrbl]

I don't think this system addresses this issue.

There is no system that addresses refusal to follow the rules.

[ianmartin]

Can we all just tone it down until the system goes into place and we see Nilazi's shooting arrows and taking down Meks.?

Let's ride it out and see, nothing here is changing my life, I get on to play and to hell (drov) with whoever doesn't like what I am doing.
Because I (Speaking in general) don't conform to what your norm is, because I don't go bloodthirsty or very gay or mud sexy doesn't mean I can't or don't play the game well.  Let's all relax and keep an open mind and see how this turns out.

Personally, I don't see any benefit or detriment as it pertains to me and my character.

My weird and rambling $0.02

[Dakota]

I don't think this system addresses this issue.

There is no system that addresses refusal to follow the rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqLoQiMT6WE

[drunkendwarf]

Ability to roleplay
Easy enough to understand but it doesn't solve the problem if you're a player who just goes unoticed by staff because you don't play many sponsored or leadership roles for the existing clans. Indy players mainly it appears will have trouble with this.

I mostly play indies, and I can tell you this is not the case.

I disagree entirely. I, over the course of fifteen years with this mud, have been in exactly one clan with one character. Every single one of my indie characters went completely ignored (or so it seemed, and was reflected by my account notes, or near complete lack thereof) by staff, regardless of how long lived or well known they may have become. Every single point of karma I have been awared, I  asked for. Now, I haven't played an indie in nearly 3 years so things may have changed, but the past many years tells me they most likely haven't.

[janeshephard]

I don't think this was intended as snarky myself but I see as a reasonable point. I believe most players biggest concern regarding karma is personal favoritism of a staffer or prejudice of a staff member in regards to karma.

This doesn't happen. I have been playing for about two years, and I think I get along with staff pretty well. I don't have lots of karma. I don't get characters resurrected left and right. When I wish up it doesn't always get answered right away, or have an outcome favorable to my character. I've had requests rejected, special apps rejected, etc. just like anyone else.

Integrity isn't a problem here.

Perhaps there should be a policy in place regarding cycling through which staffers make the decisions regarding karma for each player in turn?

Clans have staff rotations. I think that's sufficient.

We're getting a nice upgrade to the game system. Start by looking at it that way.

[janeshephard]

I disagree entirely. I, over the course of fifteen years with this mud, have been in exactly one clan with one character. Every single one of my indie characters went completely ignored (or so it seemed, and was reflected by my account notes, or near complete lack thereof) by staff, regardless of how long lived or well known they may have become. Every single point of karma I have been awared, I  asked for. Now, I haven't played an indie in nearly 3 years so things may have changed, but the past many years tells me they most likely haven't.

My experience is the exact opposite: I have earned two karma points in two years. The karma came after playing an indie in each case.

In both cases, I received some good feedback from players with kudos. That may have helped as well -- but I do work very hard on including other players in my RP.

[Taven]

I'm going to repost my questions, since they got lost on the previous page. Thanks for taking the time to address everything, I know a 7-page thread is hard to keep up with. 

Questions!

1. Skill bumping does not autobranch you. So let's say I want to spend a bunch of karma points to boost my "pooper scooper" level to master, and I know that the "pooper scooper" skill branches into the "poop crafting" skill. If I spend those points, I WILL be a master in pooper scooper, but I WON'T branch from it. So when do I branch and get the skill "poop crafting," if my "pooper scooper" starts at master?

2. Can you do master crafting item submissions right away, if you app a PC who starts out with a crafting skill at master?

[palomar]

I'm going to repost my questions, since they got lost on the previous page. Thanks for taking the time to address everything, I know a 7-page thread is hard to keep up with. 

Questions!

1. Skill bumping does not autobranch you. So let's say I want to spend a bunch of karma points to boost my "pooper scooper" level to master, and I know that the "pooper scooper" skill branches into the "poop crafting" skill. If I spend those points, I WILL be a master in pooper scooper, but I WON'T branch from it. So when do I branch and get the skill "poop crafting," if my "pooper scooper" starts at master?

2. Can you do master crafting item submissions right away, if you app a PC who starts out with a crafting skill at master?

1. Probably when you fail your next skill check.

2. The master craft thing is probably account based, so my guess is yes - if you haven't submitted a master craft recently with another PC.

[Bacon]

If I'm not mistaken, I thought that spending karma for the boost only raised the subguild cap not allowed you to start out -at- Master in that skill? Ehhh...which is it? This idea either way has me excited, I've had some crafter type pcs using subguild crafting that I wished I could make more stuff with than the cap allows for.

[Dalmeth]

If I'm not mistaken, I thought that spending karma for the boost only raised the subguild cap not allowed you to start out -at- Master in that skill? Ehhh...which is it? This idea either way has me excited, I've had some crafter type pcs using subguild crafting that I wished I could make more stuff with than the cap allows for.

That's a bit of a confusing mess, so let me clarify by repeating previous statements : Skills can be raised through using karma points, but not past their normal guild levels.  Fighting skills will only be allowed to raise one or two levels.  There are, however, going to be new subguild options that you can purchase through karma, and those you will possibly be able to raise to the master levels, allowing craft submissions.

[Reiloth]

If I'm not mistaken, I thought that spending karma for the boost only raised the subguild cap not allowed you to start out -at- Master in that skill? Ehhh...which is it? This idea either way has me excited, I've had some crafter type pcs using subguild crafting that I wished I could make more stuff with than the cap allows for.

That's a bit of a confusing mess, so let me clarify by repeating previous statements : Skills can be raised through using karma points, but not past their normal guild levels.  Fighting skills will only be allowed to raise one or two levels.  There are, however, going to be new subguild options that you can purchase through karma, and those you will possibly be able to raise to the master levels, allowing craft submissions.

+1!

[Morgenes]

If I'm not mistaken, I thought that spending karma for the boost only raised the subguild cap not allowed you to start out -at- Master in that skill? Ehhh...which is it? This idea either way has me excited, I've had some crafter type pcs using subguild crafting that I wished I could make more stuff with than the cap allows for.

This is incorrect.  Skill bumps will make your skill show as the new level, so if you would have started at Apprentice, you would get it at Journeyman with 1 karma point spent.  And Dalmeth is correct, you cannot use skill bumps to take you beyond your normal cap for the skill.

1. Skill bumping does not autobranch you. So let's say I want to spend a bunch of karma points to boost my "pooper scooper" level to master, and I know that the "pooper scooper" skill branches into the "poop crafting" skill. If I spend those points, I WILL be a master in pooper scooper, but I WON'T branch from it. So when do I branch and get the skill "poop crafting," if my "pooper scooper" starts at master?

Did we say skill bumping does not autobranch you?  If we did, that is incorrect.  You can branch new skills through skill gains at character creation.  You CANNOT apply skill gains to skills that were branched from skill gains in char generation.  So, to use your example, if you applied karma to 'pooper scooper' to master, it would branch 'poop crafting', but you could not apply any karma points to 'poop crafting' to raise it up.  That make sense?

2. Can you do master crafting item submissions right away, if you app a PC who starts out with a crafting skill at master?

Yes, if your crafting skill says 'master', you qualify to submit a master craft item.  The limit on number of master crafts is per player character, not account, so even if you just submitted a Master Craft with your pc and died, you could do that with your next pc.

[Ouroboros]

First off... Awesome. And thank you for bringing this into Arm 1.0 instead of shelving it for 2.0.

The prospect of new options and far more customization has me drooling at the possibilities. Particularly the ability to choose a mastercraft sub, the lack of which has irked me since my return. I expect, or at least hope, we'll see far more complex characters develop due to this. I imagine within a week some will put together the new magical formula for min-maxing their uber warrior/krathi/whatnot, but it's nothing that doesn't happen already within the game's existing structure. I also expect it'll let players create a lot of the character concepts they'd once have to special app, which should cut down on review and approval time on the staff's part.

In my view the karma awarding system isn't changing all that much, it's simply being formalized into more concrete terms for the player's understanding and the staff's convenience. The same players that would be awarded karma under the old system will likely be awarded under the new system. And those that didn't, likely won't.

I also think the regeneration system will lead to a healthier environment and force some players to play outside their safety zone. Especially if that "safety zone" includes rolling one mul/sorcerer/psion/whatnot after the next. I've gotten the distinct impression that so far many players who hit the higher karma ranks have all but forgotten what it's like to play a mundane.

Really, I only have one issue with this system and it's the following:

Sorry, we won't be introducing this for existing characters.  Trying to change subguilds etc is codedly difficult and would result in everything being reset to starting level, we'd just rather not go there.   Once this is implemented it will be for new characters from that point only.

This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated. There are players who cheer if their characters reach five days old and there are those who cringe when one dies or is stored with less than 80 days played. I think the game needs both, as those who quickly move on to the next character bring something dynamic to the game, while those who play long-lived characters provide an anchor of familiarity and history for the world.

I understand the process would be difficult, but I would strongly suggest some alternative method of dealing with this is examined. Possible ideas could include:

- The ability to request an adjustment for characters who are at least xxx old or have xxx days played, when the system is introduced. Something like 6 months old or 50 days played would be the lowest I'd consider, but it could even be twice that.

- The ability to request an adjustment for characters who were created before the system was introduced, but only x months after it's introduced. For example, you might choose to open up such requests 2-3 months after the system is introduced, letting those who still have characters alive since then, apply.

I can understand not wanting to undertake such manual tweaking for a character who was created a day before the new system and will likely be dead a week after. But a character's longevity should be rewarded, or at least respected, not penalized.

Beyond that one issue... As stated in the beginning, awesome and thank you.

[Morgenes]

Really, I only have one issue with this system and it's the following:

Sorry, we won't be introducing this for existing characters.  Trying to change subguilds etc is codedly difficult and would result in everything being reset to starting level, we'd just rather not go there.   Once this is implemented it will be for new characters from that point only.

This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated. There are players who cheer if their characters reach five days old and there are those who cringe when one dies or is stored with less than 80 days played. I think the game needs both, as those who quickly move on to the next character bring something dynamic to the game, while those who play long-lived characters provide an anchor of familiarity and history for the world.

I understand the process would be difficult, but I would strongly suggest some alternative method of dealing with this is examined. Possible ideas could include:

- The ability to request an adjustment for characters who are at least xxx old or have xxx days played, when the system is introduced. Something like 6 months old or 50 days played would be the lowest I'd consider, but it could even be twice that.

- The ability to request an adjustment for characters who were created before the system was introduced, but only x months after it's introduced. For example, you might choose to open up such requests 2-3 months after the system is introduced, letting those who still have characters alive since then, apply.

I can understand not wanting to undertake such manual tweaking for a character who was created a day before the new system and will likely be dead a week after. But a character's longevity should be rewarded, or at least respected, not penalized.

Beyond that one issue... As stated in the beginning, awesome and thank you.

The fact of the matter is any sufficiently long lived character will be far better off than a new character.  If they really want to play exciting new option A, they will store and do it because it doesn't fit their existing character.

[janeshephard]

This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated.

This kind of talk will discourage the staff from tinkering with chargen anymore -- and if indeed there was mass storing, which I highly doubt, it would discourage them even more.  I think players should be big enough to take this in stride. I hope they join me and do.

[palomar]

Doesn't it say in the docs that storing/killing off your PC to try out new karma options is a good way to lose karma?

I really don't think a lot of people will store their PCs when this goes live. Perhaps it will tip the scale for someone who is already considering storage for other reasons.

[Dalmeth]

This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated.

The thing about this system is that it doesn't really do anything to any balance that might have been in place before.  A skill at a certain level of mastery is still just as valuable as before, so no one's going to suffer compared to the new kids on that front.

At most, people who chose a crafing subguild might feel left out, but no more than they were before.  Honestly, the impulse is a selfish one, and you're never going to get rid of that.

If the staff is wiling to bump up the old subguild crafters to a similar pick from the new ones with appropriate roleplay and a karma cost, that's their decision, and as always, it is subject to whoever is handling your request submission.

[Ouroboros]

...

The fact of the matter is any sufficiently long lived character will be far better off than a new character.  If they really want to play exciting new option A, they will store and do it because it doesn't fit their existing character.

To clarify, I wasn't bringing it up as a "better off" or not issue. I don't think any self-respectable player with a long-lived character will store because they're not "uber" enough. I also wasn't bringing it up as an option for player to create a dramatically different and exiting new character based on their old one. I think they could though, because under the new system they might have been able to create a character who's code better represents their concept. I'll offer an example...

A player designs a character with say warrior guild and picks their subbguild based on the fact it grants tailor. Because that's what they really wanted for their character, a stoic swordsman who makes frilly princess dresses by night for his eight year-old daughter. He hates the fact he'll never be able to mastercraft that pink sandcloth dress with quartz rhinestones, but it's the closest he can come to his concept given the limitations of the system. He could bother the staff for a special app, sure, but for whatever reason he decides not to. The new system is introduced and that player realizes that he could have picked that lovely new MC Tailor subguild and been mastercrafting all the lovely dresses his little girl wants. Sure, his combat skills are "far better off" than any new character, but he's limited in what he can do due to that.

Will that player store? I don't know. As I said, that's one of two possible outcomes, not the only one. But I do feel if he doesn't store, the second outcome will likely happen. He'll feel disappointed that he could have achieved a much closer outcome of his concept than he has available.

In an ideal world, the staff would have a magic wand where after introducing this system, they could automatically judge whether a player's request for an adjustment is justified and keeping in line with their character, and if they fit the time limitations, wave their wand and have it happen all before they have their morning coffee. I realize this isn't the case though and that any time we discuss hand-tweaking characters we're discussing massive amounts of time on the staff's part. I do think however that there are valid concerns on this. As well as that the percentage of the playerbase that this would actually affect is minimal enough, that with strict limitations imposed, a small amount of extra time devoted to it from the staff members would make the transition much smoother. Perhaps, given how dramatically special apps will be reduced, some of that saved time could be offered to accommodate those few characters in special circumstances.

[Delirium]

that's what they really wanted for their character, a stoic swordsman who makes frilly princess dresses by night for his eight year-old daughter.

I see what you're saying and agree, but I will also offer the caveat that situations like those are gonna be pretty rare, and could probably be handled on a case by case basis. There's also the simple fact that tradition has been to not open that can of worms, because even though the staff tries to be fair, they will inevitably get complaints of favoritism.

[Ouroboros]

This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated.

This kind of talk will discourage the staff from tinkering with chargen anymore -- and if indeed there was mass storing, which I highly doubt, it would discourage them even more.  I think players should be big enough to take this in stride. I hope they join me and do.

I'll join ya in being big enough to take it in stride, for what it's worth. But I won't join ya in not discussing it out of fear it might discourage the staff from bringing about new features; I give them more credit than that, and frankly if discussion wasn't sought, this thread wouldn't exist.

At most, people who chose a crafing subguild might feel left out, but no more than they were before.

Bingo.

If the staff is wiling to bump up the old subguild crafters to a similar pick from the new ones with appropriate roleplay and a karma cost, that's their decision, and as always, it is subject to whoever is handling your request submission.

Sure, works for me. I'd just like to see it as a formal decision on the staff's part and not subject to the whimsy of "whoever is handling your request submission". I think it's a concern that could potentially affect enough players, to warrant at the very least an acknowledgment that they'd be willing to consider such a request, instead of us having to wonder whether we should even consider pressing the submit button for fear of upsetting them or wasting their time.

I see what you're saying and agree, but I will also offer the caveat that situations like those are gonna be pretty rare, and could probably be handled on a case by case basis. There's also the simple fact that tradition has been to not open that can of worms, because even though the staff tries to be fair, they will inevitably get complaints of favoritism.

I see what you're saying as well. And you're right on all counts. Theses situations will be rare and should be handled case-by-case. And I understand the staff's position for not wanting to open that can of worms. But by the same token the staff expects me to be big enough to accept the changes in stride without feeling left out, I expect them to be big enough to understand how important this might be to me and my character and at least acknowledge they're willing to hear me out. Whatever can of worms that might open.

[Adhira]

The formal decision is that no, we will not be retrofitting any existing PCs when the changes come in.

[Ouroboros]

The formal decision is that no, we will not be retrofitting any existing PCs when the changes come in.

Fair enough. The change is awesome enough that I think most of us will take it in stride. But I think the issue was also impacting enough to at least bring up for discussion.