Playing a good elf

[Kalai]

Well getting something from nothing is alchemy isn't it? So that would indicate elves like alchemy. Which would imply that they have gold. It's really a shame too since steel is (or should be) a whole lot more valueable than gold, in a world of wood swords and chitin shields.

Alchemy is turning lead into gold, in Arm those are probably of similar (high) value.

[Spoon]

It says:

Roleplaying:

Descended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery. Among elves, theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage. Highly distrustful of all persons outside their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to test the trustworthiness of any companion. Due to their nature as runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can forgive the riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride on mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

Wit covers quite a lot of ground.

[Nyr]

That missing phrase meant a lot.

[X-D]

Indeed

[lordcooper]

I'm mainly posting here to thank both X-D and Nyr for the entertainment   

Secondly, and purely out of curiosity:

theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers

As opposed to what other kinds of theft?

[FantasyWriter]

Mugging, breaking and entering.

[Armaddict]

Meh.

The way everyone is talking about it makes it so simple.  There are other things to steal than items from someone's inventory.  The enjoyment of elves doesn't come from a happy pickpocket spree.  It comes with the reasons for doing it.  If that makes sense.

[Lizzie]

Examples of stealing:

• Using the barter skill at a shop to get something for less than the actual asking price (you're stealing that little bit of their profit)
  
• NOT using the barter skill, but roleplaying a barter session with another PC to get a better price than what they're asking.
  
• Killing someone (stealing their life)
• Engaging someone in a long-winded pointless story that you enjoy telling, without care of whether or not they like hearing (stealing their time)
• Setting them up with that long-winded story so that someone else can get there and pk them (double points - stealing victim's time, and stealing PK'ers efforts so you don't have to do the work yourself)
• Influencing a templar into -not- charging you for your merchant's token (stealing their income)
• Convincing some grebber in the scrub to "let you" skin the tregil they just killed, in exchange for the hide (stealing their kill, aka poaching)
• Through regular visits, setting someone up to get into the habit of buying you a drink every single time you show up when they're there (stealing their money and their time)

And it goes on and on and on. There are all potential "mindsets" of what an elf could be thinking, in regards to what constitutes "stealing."

[Spoon]

I'm not really down with killing or wasting people's time as forms of stealing. It's not literally stealing anything, it's conceptual. Surely something must transfer from one person's possession to another's for it to be they kind of stealing the docs talk about.

[Marauder Moe]

Meh.  Personally I don't care for this concept of "bartering is stealing" or "barding is stealing", etc.  Just about any interaction could be classified as theft that way, and thus players of elves pretty much end up ignoring the elven theft culture.  (I also don't think that murder is stealing either... it's kind of a class above, even for elves.)

I think it's only theft if you have something tangible to show for it and the victim would be angry at you should they learn all the facts involved.

By that qualification, I don't believe that anything in Lizzie's list is theft.

[Marauder Moe]

I suppose that post was a little harsh.  I'm not saying elves have to steal, because I understand that (from a player's standpoint at least) it's really not an easy thing to pull off.

So, here's some idea on how to roleplay the elven theft culture without actually stealing:
*Have a great interest in stories regarding theft.
*Constantly be coming up with ideas for a good theft or con.
*Create stories and/or songs about clever cons.
*Lie about having accomplished thieving exploits. (Optionally, bribe someone to help act it out in front of your friends.)
*Help your more daring elven tribemates with their thefts.

[Lizzie]

I'm getting my information directly from the official docs. The official docs state that an elf can, and would, consider shrewd merchanting to be a form of thievery. There are other official docs of specific tribes, that expand the "philosophy of thievery" to include taking of lives.  It is one example of what -can- be considered theivery, according to the official game docs.

If you disagree, perhaps take it up with the people who wrote the docs, and the people who approved them to be included as official. I'm not the one who wrote this stuff. I'm just letting y'all know that you don't have to have the steal skill, or knock someone out to take their coded items, in order to consider yourself a thief. Anyone who scams anyone out of anything, is a thief. Extortion is also thievery. Conversely, bribery can be a form of thievery, if the elf feels they're getting more for their money than they believe the money is worth.

All of these things *can be considered* thievery to an elf. A human might or might not see it that way, but an elf would.

[Marauder Moe]

Haggling is a borderline situation, which depends on the specifics involved I suppose.  My assessment is based (partially) off this line:

To an elf, theft is: "Taking anything that would not be given if the possessor knew all of the facts."

[Lizzie]

My source was much more specific:

Con-artists of any sort are thieves. Muggers are thieves, albeit less subtle ones. Even traders are thieves - indeed, many elves consider trading to be just a sophisticated form of theft. This makes many elves become merchants, but they tend to be the least scrupulous merchants around. An elven merchant will try to get much more for their wares than they think they deserve, because this is the basis of the theft. But of course, a clever customer might bargain his way into paying less than what the wares are worth, in which case the elf would think that they had been stolen from - a great source of angst for an elf! This makes elven merchants go to no ends to make sure that the customer never gets what he or she paid for.

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elven.html

The part about murder is an extension of mugging, which is in specific clan docs but not specific to that clan. Not sure why it isn't included in the public docs. It's an example of one possible justification for an elf to kill someone, if the circumstances warrant it.

[Marauder Moe]

If you murder someone for their stuff, sure, that's stealing.  (But not very artfully, as the docs comment regarding mugging.)

My objection for that one is to "stealing their life".  I don't like the notion of stealing intangibles like life, time, or whatever.  But if there's non-public documentation that says otherwise (for a specific group or elves in general), well... that'd be new evidence for me to evaluate.

[Spoon]

Someone write up an elven philosopher. Then another elven philosopher to contradict the first. The we start an inter tribe jihad about what's considered proper stealing.

[Sam]

I would place my chips on assuming that elves wouldn't place any sort of pride on intengibles; such as time, life, prospects, future sales, pride, etc... If elves are an ego driven breed, they would need tangible proof to prove that they were either artful or courageous. To have anything less, the other skinnies would and probably could just say, in elven, "Uh.. No you didn't."

[Armaddict]

Someone write up an elven philosopher. Then another elven philosopher to contradict the first. The we start an inter tribe jihad about what's considered proper stealing.

Nah, they'd just steal each other's ideas.

[Potaje]

Artful.. hmm, Stealing something from someones pocket, then replacing it with poop. Then when they go to get the thing they grab a handful of, squishy smelly. and your friends can laugh and say, well done.

[palomar]

On the topic of playing a good elf, I suggest you read the following post. I am not the original creator of it, but for some reason I forgot to write down who was. It's from the old gdb. It's focused on desert elf roleplay, but I think some parts are applicable on city elf roleplay as well.


Thoughts about Desert Elves

There are two major underlying themes with most elven tribes: Pride and Survival.

Every tribe is proud to be a desert elf. To be a real elf. Being born and raised in a climate where death is literally around every dune or shrug to merely survive is a huge deal. And from this comes the pride in living and being a tribal desert elf.

Survival is what every elf strives for. Without survival there is no tribe. This is an underlying thought in every encounter - does the outcome enhance survivability or do the actions increase survivability. To attack without thought without reason is to decrease survivability - making too many enemies will destroy the tribe. Always pick the targets carefully. Survival is usually more important than pride.

In a place where there is no law (the wilds) then custom takes the place of
law as the security structure. Without custom then everyone would attack
everyone else. With customs one can become assured of a base level of
security.

For example, it is the custom to greet and announce others that are met in
the wilds when there is no intent to attack. The greeting is a message
stating "This is who I am and this is my tribe" with the underlying message
of "by revealing myself to you I am telling you I am not going to attack you right now." One who then refuses to respond (refuses to tell their name and tribe) is signaling their intent to attack. One who only partially answers or lies is showing rudeness and it is a calculated insult.

Each custom became a custom because it enhances survivability and therefore it creates a structure of security around an action. By having a predictable series of actions one can anticipate and survive. Through these rituals of custom the Desert Tribes can interoperate to engage in trade, negotiations, and alliances. Without these rituals of custom no tribe would ever be able to interact with another tribe in a meaningful way other than being 'at war.'

Desert Tribes aren't roving bands of raiders they are highly structured family units. Trust is found only within the tribe because resources are so scarce. The constant struggle to survive defines the desert tribes and has determined how and why they act the way they do. Playing a desert elf isn't like any other role in the game - there is a very rich tapestry of histories, customs, and belief systems that vary from tribe to tribe. Each tribe has figured out what it needs to do to survive and therefore all elves in those tribes follow the rules of the tribe. Anyone who wishes to play the 'exception to the rule' had better not even bother with a Desert Elf. That being said, there are enough options and variety within the tribes to basically play anything.

I always laugh when I see tribals who gear themselves up, for example, all in Kuraci gear or Allanaki gear. By doing so, you are forsaking your tribal ways and abandoning the wastes for the 'comforts' of walled civilization. You have to remember, pride is a major thing to desert elves, it is what keeps them in the harshest conditions in the known world and surviving. All the weak tribes have already fallen to civilization.

I ask anyone who decides to give a Desert Elf a try to work on getting into the mindset of living in the wastes, surviving there, and taking pride in doing just that. Remember, elves don't mistrust everyone outside their tribe just because it makes them different to RP - it is because of living in a world of scarce resources where the competition is so fierce that if you fail to secure the basic necessities you die. By depriving another tribe of a resource you secure your own tribe and thus... it is in your best interest to always lie and cheat with the other tribes. This has gone on for so long that it has become almost ritualized and is respected. A skilled liar and thief will be respected by all tribes - they are just that good.

Abandon our western views when you enter the realm of elves - please leave them at the doorstep. Just take some time and imagine, if you would, that you grew up where weakness gets you killed - charity destroys your own tribe (if you give water to a stranger you just killed a baby in your own tribe because you deprived them of that much needed substance), and where flat out aggressiveness will kill your tribe. These are not options, this is how life is. Brutal, often short, and constantly a struggle for survival. The tribes may work together for a common goal but the reality is - in time they will split once more because Tribe X wants to secure the oasis while Tribe Y won't let them ('cause they want it as well and they don't share well).

All the Desert Elf tribes are nomadic or semi-nomadic because of the constraints of local resources. These tribes are still hunter / gatherer organizations and thus elves wander far and wide. Some of the tribes travel from the silt sea all the way to the grasslands. Others remain in the tablelands. Yet others remain within the confines of other geographical regions. Basically, if you are an elf from a tribe, read where your camps are made and stay within that region. I agree, it doesn't make much sense to me to see ATV out in the tablelands for no reason - but again, there may be valid reasons to go out there for specific incidents.

Most of the tribes have managed to carve out niches for themselves in terms of geographic regions and thus have the loose concept of 'territory' - if only in the meaning that is the general vicinity you will find these elves. How vigorous a tribe is in 'defending' its territory is up to the tribe in question. I know some of the tribes only have camps while its members spread out throughout the known world and thus only the camp would be defended. Others may consider a region to be theirs and will discourage outsiders from tresspassing. Once again there is a lot of variety here. Basically, the defining reason to maintain a territory is survival. If a tribe is large enough and powerful enough it can stake a claim and defend it - most of the tribes don't bother and wander in a nomadic manner.

And in my view any elf who is 'too proud to accept an insult from a stronger opponent' is a dead elf or a really stupid elf who doesn't quite grasp the reality of the environment he lives in. And yep, there are many stupid elves - that doesn't necessarily mean they are badly played it just means they are stupid. 

If you look at the histories of the tribes - any time there has been war you will notice a large reduction of the elven populations of each tribe. Yes, conflict will happen and battles will be fought - but usually over resources.

Still, a young tribe guided by people who are inexperienced will find themselves in conflict more often than a tribe with a longer tradition and estabilshed customs that guide them through these situations. This is part of natural growing pains and weed out the weak tribes from the others.

Many player run tribes ended completely after a series of conflicts that regularly wiped out the entire player base (or simple attrition due to hunting deaths). Others were wiped out a few times before the players who kept recreating new desert elf chars managed to establish a more secure base. Of these, some managed to navigate further growing pains and made it to a coded tribe with an established camp.

Just one thing I feel is worth making a point of - elven culture, as a whole, involves the respect of lying, stealing, tricking, and misleading. Therefore most conflicts should not arise from such situations - there is more likely to be a grudging respect and a burning desire to 'get back' at them. An elf will not normally come to blows before another elf steals from them - any that does typically will not live long (for some, survivability is a slowly acquired ability through multiple deaths).

As I said, leave Western views at the door when contemplating a Desert Elf. Such things as 'right and wrong' in regards to lying, stealing, cheating, trickery, mischief, and the like do not exist. Lying and thievery are highly regarded abilities. All of this stuff is, I believe, covered in the ample elven documentation and tribal documents but it's still good to go over from time to time.

That's not say outright aggression is a good, accepted thing...it's just something that I can see things escalating into. I imagine that inter-tribal murder happens in the wastes.

Absolutely. Killing an opposing tribal is a way to secure your own survivability since you are reducing competition to resources. But these situations will occur when it can be concealed who did it and if it is blundered... you may face extreme action from your own tribe for bringing it in direct conflict with another tribe. Tribal wars are costly and most tribes avoid them as much as they can. Still, they will happen and thus it is in the tribe's best interest to win. 

   

Here's a realistic situation that I've wondered about:

If a Salarri/Kadius foreigner is out on your lands taking your resources, what should you do? You don't know his language, so you can't trade with him. How do you manage to cheat him? What else can you do besides killing him?

Let's say you're a marksman and you have a few poisoned arrows. You're confident you could kill him quickly. Why shouldn't you?

In this situation - there are many things you can do. For one, you can ignore them knowing that Salarr, Kadius, or Kurac are incredibly strong and have been known to come in force if too many of their hunters fail to return. Bringing the wrath of the Merchant Houses down upon your tribe is one way to possibly be expelled from your own tribe or forced to make direct atonement for what was done. Such actions (if any) would be determined by the tribe involved.

Beyond that, if the situation is one of opportunitistic raiding and your tribe engages in such activities - by all means, have fun. The thing is, most tribes don't engage in raiding activities for a variety of self serving reasons.

Not knowing another's language is no reason why you still can't get the better of them. Going up and taking a threatening posture and then claiming their kill as your own is one fun thing to do. Another is to extort obsidian by taking out a purse and shaking it while leveling a spear at the intruder's chest.

Of course, you could fire off the poisoned arrow and then approach with a cure in hand... and once again, proceed with the shaking of a purse of coins to save the poor sucker's life.

The opportunities for exploitation are only limited by your own cunning and imagination.

Or, let's say you're in another competing tribe's territory. If you attacked the man, you'd draw the Salarri attention to them...they would be the ones attacked, and by weakening both of your competitors, you come out ahead. Slightly more risky, but isn't every dastardly deed a little risky?

Why shouldn't you do those things?

This is something an elf is more likely to pursue. Dress up as your rival tribe's manner and gear then 'raid' a few intruders. Let them deal with the fallout of your actions. Once again, the elf perpetuating these attacks needs to safeguard their own safety first. You wouldn't attack overwhelming odds, you wouldn't attack a clearly superior opponent. If you kill the mark - you fail to induce the desire conflict between the tribe and the Merchant House. And, again, some tribes simply do not condone random acts of raiding while others do. Each tribe has a set of guidelines on how to deal with strangers, intruders, and raiding that should be followed at all times.

[Fredd]

I always laugh when I see tribals who gear themselves up, for example, all in Kuraci gear or Allanaki gear. By doing so, you are forsaking your tribal ways and abandoning the wastes for the 'comforts' of walled civilization. You have to remember, pride is a major thing to desert elves, it is what keeps them in the harshest conditions in the known world and surviving. All the weak tribes have already fallen to civilization.

Alot of what you said is real good. But this line here, you need to reconsider. And here is why.

There are tribes (one I know for a fact but I beleave 2) that don't really craft. And they don't really trade. They raid for what the tribe needs. They go and steal, rob, and pillage, if needed, for there tribe. This means they are just as likely to be decked out in a Kuraci sandcloth set, as a desert elf gwoshi leather set. Possibly more so, since the kuraci stuff will be sitting in a bin free for anyone to use.

Now, if the d-elf in question went to Kurac, and paid two thousand black for a set of armor, which could have been used to supply water for the whole tribe, Yeah. There worth a laugh at. If they stole it from a roundear, they're worth your respect.

[Marshmellow]

I think, Fredd, that you're assigning more reason to wearing that than is necessary.

The people doing that may be raiders, yes, but I know for a fact that NO tribe has NO crafters, even the Fang or SLK, the two most likely to not have them represented by PCs.

[Fredd]

I think, Fredd, that you're assigning more reason to wearing that than is necessary.

The people doing that may be raiders, yes, but I know for a fact that NO tribe has NO crafters, even the Fang or SLK, the two most likely to not have them represented by PCs.

It's true, yes. There are SLK crafters. But the majority of what the tribe needs is done by hunting, or raiding.

I can't speak for the fangs, I haven't played one. I'm just stating, there are methods behind the madness. Not every d-elf wearing city gear is forsaking there heratage. Some are embracing it by doing so. There taking what there tribe needs.

[Zoltan]

I think, Fredd, that you're assigning more reason to wearing that than is necessary.

The people doing that may be raiders, yes, but I know for a fact that NO tribe has NO crafters, even the Fang or SLK, the two most likely to not have them represented by PCs.

It's true, yes. There are SLK crafters. But the majority of what the tribe needs is done by hunting, or raiding.

I can't speak for the fangs, I haven't played one. I'm just stating, there are methods behind the madness. Not every d-elf wearing city gear is forsaking there heratage. Some are embracing it by doing so. There taking what there tribe needs.

By completely draping themselves in that trash from the pit?

[lordcooper]

By utilizing clothing gained during a daring raid, that allows precious resources to be used for other, more essential ends?