Playing a good elf

[Cindy42]

GIVE ME MY ARMS BACK YOU DAMMIT PHONE COMPANSIES!!!

yeah so... what is playing a good elf psychologically?

CULTURALLY prone to stealing....

so an elf raised by non-elves would potentially be different?

Could honest elves born within their kind's culture exist, and find nothing wrong with stealing.

I love elves.

I've seen elves who wouldn't steal but at least admired a skilled and brave thief.

I've seen elves who try to steal the sun off your body by looking at you. In Zalanthas. No way, you ask? THEY'RE ELVES BABY

and what is playing a bad elf?

I love elves.

Not IG obviously but hey.

Because no one likes a badly-played elf, and may, for the sake of roleplay, sack bad elves for being such... or maybe not... I would.

[Kalai]

I don't think playing an elf well will always encourage characters to like you. 

[Barsook]

...

What the heck is this topic about.

[Cindy42]

I don't think playing an elf well will always encourage characters to like you. 

that's why i love elves <3 <3 <3

and why i am determined to see elves played properly!

want a necklace of elf ears IG

[Cindy42]

...

What the heck is this topic about.

what a good elf being played should be and what a bad elf being played is.

because i seen some pretty non-elfy elves and it sorts of shakes my immersion.

[Marshmellow]

I would challenge that those elves you saw that were acting unlike you would expect elves to act like... means they could easily have been acting even elfier than you expected.

[Case]

I think you can answer whatever addled mess the topic question is with "It depends what the elf considers stealing"

[Kalai]

...

What the heck is this topic about.

what a good elf being played should be and what a bad elf being played is.

because i seen some pretty non-elfy elves and it sorts of shakes my immersion.

Also remember half-breeds can appear to be elves, and they ... are ... not elves.  

[Barsook]

Deleted, was being rude.

[Cindy42]

Deleted, was being rude.

aw now i wanna know. and if you're not meaning to be rude than you're not rude! you have cupcake now!

[Barsook]

I ain't telling you.

[Anaiah]

Remembering that elves tend toward tribing as well as thievery. Even if your tribe is a tribe of one due to losing them earlier in life, you will tend toward tribing and xenophobia towards those outside whatever you deem your tribe to be. People overlook elven tests of trust all too much, but on the other hand, those trust tests are intelligent, and sometimes nonelves take them up as well. Usually when there's a player who makes their first character as an elf with no sneaky guild/sub and no mention of a tribe, I change them to human and advise them to read up on the elven documentation before making an elf (and link them to it). While badly played humans are bad, elves are so finite and specific in their outlined racial documentation, a badly played one leaves a very sour taste in the mouth, much more so than humans. (Any race with documentation, really, but half-elves are sort of like humans in emotional overdrive with bipolar disorder, so they are probably the most similar to humans racially, and thus the hardest to mess up on accident.)

[This is all personal opinion, mind. Not specifically as staff, but as a fellow part-time citizen of Zalanthas.]

[Majikal]

I would challenge that those elves you saw that were acting unlike you would expect elves to act like... means they could easily have been acting even elfier than you expected.

Also, so often I see elves neglect such things as trust trials. Tends to be even more important in the desert-elf environment. I always put a heavy emphasis on all of my elven pc's with even biography entries dedicated to single characters and the trust trials of that character. Don't forget your trust trials folks, they could be fun.

[Marauder Moe]

Now that I think about it, I had a non-elf character that would more or less perform the elven trust trials on people.  A few of them even passed the final test.

I'll have to keep that experience in mind should I ever end up playing an elf.

[FantasyWriter]

This would be a good time to reread the elf documentation.  IF I COULD!!!!

[Malifaxis]

This would be a good time to reread the elf documentation.  IF I COULD!!!!

Hey man... hey, FW.

                                                                            Psssssst.  Over here, man.

You, ah... you need some?  Huh?

I got the elf documentation right here, man.  You want a couple pages?  Here, man.

                                      Yeah man, that's the first page.

Pretty good shit, huh?  Yeah, no shit it even has the typos in it.  You think I cut?

I'll fucking cut you.

                                                            Yeah man, six bucks a page.

That's it.

Six.

You want some?

[Clavis]

damn elf stole what I was writing

[Celest]

Everyone knows that the only good elf is a dead elf.

[Erythil]

All the elves I've tried to befriend ended up dying before I could finish their tests.

[najdorf]

For me, opportunism should be the main drive in an elf's entire actions. (outside his/her tribe)
Playing an elf with such a mindset usually brings good RP along.

[Potaje]

Elves are not loyal to other elves, only their tribe.

[ianmartin]

Can we also keep in mind that not every West Indian speaks with an accent OR not every irishman likes potatoes???

Thusly, not ALL elves need to ACT out a specific archtype ALL the time.  If this was the case, why bother playing an elf?

[Anaiah]

Can we also keep in mind that not every West Indian speaks with an accent OR not every irishman likes potatoes???

Thusly, not ALL elves need to ACT out a specific archtype ALL the time.  If this was the case, why bother playing an elf?

Elf is not exactly a nationality. It is a completely different thing than a human. It has its own specific mindset which works within foreign and set parameters. As with all nonhuman races. Which is the reason why racial documentation is posted and egregious violation of such results in storage. There is a reason kank-riding elves are stored.

[lordcooper]

Can we also keep in mind that not every West Indian speaks with an accent OR not every irishman likes potatoes???

Thusly, not ALL elves need to ACT out a specific archtype ALL the time.  If this was the case, why bother playing an elf?

I've spent a good few years of my life in Ireland.  They all like potatoes.  Every...single...meal...has...potato...in...it!

There is a reason kank-riding elves are stored.

Because they haxxored the game to get a kank?

[X-D]

Three things on elf mindset that is hard wired.

Elves are tribal, even if it is only a tribe of one. And goes hand in hand with the next part.

Elves are Xenophobic paranoid types.

Elves are Thieves.

Because this is hard wired they are not capable of "truly" understanding that other races are not the above.
So, they know that Anybody outside the tribe is out to get them, they are sure everybody is trying to steal from them, because they are out to steal (in some way) from everybody else. Eves will steal from each other inside tribes, because theft is not a bad thing, It is fun it is art it is what they do. Though they will not steal from each other in a damaging manner. IE, he might take the hunters boots, but not his bow, arrows or skinning knife.

Noting all of the above makes trust trials one of the great joys of playing an elf, sadly I have found it to be mostly neglected by elf players. Specially celf players, often even those of the very highest karma levels, which amazes me.

Noting above makes elf always looking out for some way to steal the second great fun in playing an elf, sadly many people have a hard time with all the mentality that goes with it, specialy on delves which when you are playing in most tribes tends to feel more like you are playing humans because they almost never steal from each other and I think tend to get far too upset if stolen from.

Lastly, noting all of the above again, Elves should be, for the most part GREAT cowards, this is something that is more fun to play then you might think, a desire to live no matter the means because dying damages the tribe. And remember, the smaller the tribe, the more important each elf is to the tribe, something to think about for you celf tribes of one.

[spicemustflow]

Lastly, noting all of the above again, Elves should be, for the most part GREAT cowards, this is something that is more fun to play then you might think, a desire to live no matter the means because dying damages the tribe. And remember, the smaller the tribe, the more important each elf is to the tribe, something to think about for you celf tribes of one.

Not necessarily. They should be capable of great sacrifice for their tribe. And they are prone to risky behaviour.

[Cutthroat]

Lastly, noting all of the above again, Elves should be, for the most part GREAT cowards, this is something that is more fun to play then you might think, a desire to live no matter the means because dying damages the tribe. And remember, the smaller the tribe, the more important each elf is to the tribe, something to think about for you celf tribes of one.

Not necessarily. They should be capable of great sacrifice for their tribe. And they are prone to risky behaviour.

Yeah, elves use theft as a test of courage. I honestly would expect daring, yet well-planned, thefts and heists.

[Cindy42]

see, i didn't know any of this, you guys are awesome.

[Marshmellow]

The concept of stealing from each other, in tribe, I have to disagree with, in many cases.  Tribes are tightly-knit groups that rely on each other for survival.  Some tribes have different customs (read the Red Fang documentation some day), but in general, they should trust that their tribe mates will never do anything that could harm them in any way.  They should be more concerned about the tribes well-being, and tripping up another tribe-mate in any way could cause real problems.  Now, don't get me wrong, because they don't have to like each other, but they have to trust each other.

Also, tribes generally consider what is owned by an individual owned by the tribe first.  You can't steal what you already partly own.  Maybe you'll pick dude's pocket and give what you stole back to him immediately, making fun, but actually taking something because your elf wants it and other elf in your tribe had it?  I think that's people assigning human motivations to elves.

[Zoan]

Despite all this, I bet if your elf goes and pinches something off another elf in Arm, the victim won't be like, 'HA-HA! Fuck you, guy,' he'll be like, 'Backstabbing that motherfucker. He took my rotted goddamn petoch!'

[Spoon]

The important bits:

Admiration of stealing, us and them mentality, they're too proud to ride.


The rest is up to you. The above is the only black and white part of paying an elf. It depends on your PC and their tribe. Make up some nifty background.


As X-D says, an elf might act cowardly because they believe if they die their tribe will suffer. They could also believe the complete opposite as in spicemusflow's post, that sacrificing themselves for their tribe would be a great honour. They might also be so fucking proud of themselves that they do something stupid. Depends on the tribe and depends on the elf. The docs say that elves are impressed by stealing through use of nimble fingers, though it's widely accepted that elves love any and all kinds of stealing.

It's easy to find playing an elf daunting, as if there's a specific way to play one and if you step out of line you'll ruin the game for everyone. Not true. Just stick to the first three points, the rest will come naturally if you create a good character.

[X-D]

Of course, If by dying they will surely be strengthening the tribe in some way...but I see that as being quite rare, specially if you put in elven pride, it would be rather hard for an elf to think somebody carries greater value then him or that the tribe would be better off without his/her greatness. Risky behavier, shrug, maybe, but calculated risk and one that any elf should be perfectally willing to run away from to try again another day.

I do not remember anywhere in the docs it saying anything about elven theft as being a test of courage. Cunning, sure, int, yes again, skill, sure. Courage, no, that would be a more human way of thinking IMO.

Also, don't bother so much with trying to figure out and post exceptions, we all know that anybody can find some way to figure them out, good for you.

But as a rule, what I posted should be true for all elves. And, as a rule, if you are playing one you should be aiming for the norm, as a staffer posted, exceptions can and sometimes will be stored or at least cause bad account notes etc. If you wish to play the exception, play a human.

And marsh, the key word there is "Harm" Theft, by its nature is not harmful, the intent can be, which I covered in my post in fact.

If your elf has 5 skinning knives, it will not harm him to lose one, in fact, it might be helpful to the tribe if some are taken.
The tribemate would know the difference between a harmful theft and benign theft.

In fact, I think your assigning human motivations, Elves do not steal from need or want, but from enjoyment and a natural bent towards just taking things. Sure, sometimes the need of something might apply to the theft but that is not usually the reason for stealing it, it was stolen because it could be, if they happen to need it as well, great.

As to reading docs (snickers) Some of the docs in this game are almost completely player written. Take a guess on who the three main contributers are in your stated case.

Still, I am posting general, or "as a rule" Sure, each tribe is different therefore the elves of said tribe can be played somewhat differently, but the three main points of my first post still stand in all of them. The topic is playing a good elf, nnot playing a good Soh elf or playing a good Jaxa Pah elf, general elf.

PS, will check on that test of courage deal if ginka ever comes up, but I'm pretty sure that has more to do with certain tribes, if it is in there at all.

[Kalai]

I seem to remember the words 'test of courage' myself, but... bah...

[JustAnotherGuy]

Since we're talking about elves here... one thing that I want to point out with elves and stealing is the fact that they steal because of the challenge, the risk, the possible threat of being caught... not for the monetary gain.  I challenge all elven players to steal something and then just toss it aside majority of the time... well, unless it might be useful for the tribe, but for own personal gain or monetary reasons... to me that's not very elf like.  Now if you're a loner... you are your tribe, so a slight bit different there.

I've recently come to playing Elves for the first time, and I am enjoying them greatly.

[Cutthroat]

Roleplaying: Elves highly distrust anyone who is not part of their immediate family, or of their tribe, who has not been tested severely to earn their trust. Elves will go to great lengths to contrive and execute these tests, even to the point of putting their own lives at risk. All elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and thievery. Among elves, theft is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage. Due to their nature as runners, all elves find riding mounts to be a shameful act (though they can usually forgive the use of mounts by other races).

From the google cache, on the "Races" page.

[X-D]

For the record, my last elf stole stuff he did not need ALL the time, and often would leave it someplace, give it back if that was funny or to benefit him or his tribe, or, in most cases, simply "lost" the item(s). Sometimes sell or trade back to the owner for something he actually did need...which I have to admit, when playing an elf that is the perfect double theft.

And yes, "More of" being key, meaning you the player will find it easier to see it this way, not that it actually is.

[Cutthroat]

For the record, my last elf stole stuff he did not need ALL the time, and often would leave it someplace, give it back if that was funny or to benefit him or his tribe, or, in most cases, simply "lost" the item(s).

I think that's fine, even expected. As an elf, sometimes, you're stealing for the sake of stealing. It's like hunting for sport.

Giving a second read to the blurb I posted, I guess the docs could be interpreted as saying that elf-on-elf theft is courageous, but elf-on-whatever-else isn't. However, mixing the bent towards thievery and the feeling of superiority, I think that elves might try stealing from prominent members of other races just to say they could (and did).

Edit to add:

And yes, "More of" being key, meaning you the player will find it easier to see it this way, not that it actually is.

I don't get that out of the phrase "more of".

[Marc]

[delete please.]

[X-D]

Couple elves back, mine and another tribemate used to constantly steal from each other in one upsmanship, or other tribemates just to leave the items around camp or near it with interesting drop descs, lots of fun.

Awww, I liked that post Marc.

More of, equal to Somewhat like or Simular to, etc etc, IE, if staff meant to say It IS a test of courage they would have put it exactly that way. Instead they put it in a way that means "Well, it is kind of like this...but not exactly."

[Nyr]

I can tell the addicts by the people debating semantics for docs they can't even access...

For the record, just parse that whole sentence and reword it somewhat--it makes sense.  Among elves, theft is more of a test of courage than a crime.

[Cindy42]

Couple elves back, mine and another tribemate used to constantly steal from each other in one upsmanship, or other tribemates just to leave the items around camp or near it with interesting drop descs, lots of fun.

Awww, I liked that post Marc.

More of, equal to Somewhat like or Simular to, etc etc, IE, if staff meant to say It IS a test of courage they would have put it exactly that way. Instead they put it in a way that means "Well, it is kind of like this...but not exactly."

maybe city elves and tribal elves and between different tribes and cities might see stealing differently. between individuals would be a given. i remember these two elves; i wouldn't bet 1000 sid to be sleep in a room with one, but i'd feel safe, monetarily, in a room with the other, in terms of my stuff getting nicked.

i wonder how rinthi elves do it... maybe they could be, besides a starving tribe, the only elves that steal out of necessity. but given that whole, its an honorable thing deal, maybe stealing to survive is degrading? not that most people in the rinth would care about their honor, i imagine, at least from what i've seen.

i assumed that elves would diminish the honorable art of stealing if they needed to do so to survive, because of the all-powerful zalanthan rule that everyone does what they must to survive and suicide is not considered a possibility. i read that in the docs somewhere.

[X-D]

That actually makes less sense Nyr.

Among elves the sun is more of an apple then a giant glowing ball of plasma.

[Kalai]

For Humans:
<Crime --------------------------------------- Test of Courage>
                  ^

For Elves:
<Crime --------------------------------------- Test of Courage>
                                                                ^


apparently?

[X-D]

Looks that way Kalai.

Though I will continue to see that as simply a guide/reminder that elves simply do not see it as a bad thing.

[Kalai]

That actually makes less sense Nyr.

Among elves the sun is more of an apple then a giant glowing ball of plasma.

Yum.

[Nyr]

That actually makes less sense Nyr.

Among elves the sun is more of an apple then a giant glowing ball of plasma.

My apologies, I'd be glad to elaborate to clear up your confusion.

Analogies, metaphors, and similes are frequently used in communication.  When describing a culture or race (fictional or otherwise), it is occasionally useful to use one of these devices in order to adequately understand said culture or race.  In this instance, we have the sentence:

"Among elves, theft is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage."

By itself, this may or may not be confusing.  Sometimes, if comparisons are confusing, changing the order of comparison/contrast can change the way the sentence works.  In this case, changing it around doesn't really change the way the sentence works, it just changes the order:

"Among elves, theft is more of a test of courage than a crime."

Both sentences describe the same concept; one just structures it differently.  They both say the same thing, which is to say "elves view theft differently than humans and other races do."  However, it can't really be stated that this concept is what the single sentence means.  Why is that sentence there, then?  Contextually, it is placed right after another sentence, which adds to the piece:

All elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and thievery. Among elves, theft is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage.

The first sentence works fine by itself.  The second sentence refers back to the concept in the first sentence:  that elves in Zalanthas have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery.  This is personified in their views on theft, which are such that theft is not viewed so much as a crime, but more as a test of courage.  This is a cultural difference.  The writer of the documentation didn't include that line there simply because it would be easier for the player to visualize it (though that is true), but also because it adequately describes the difference in that culture, leaving enough room for some role-played leeway.

The documentation is documentation.  One can semantically break it apart and misinterpret it and and say "well, really, it's more like this to explain it to the player," but that describes the very nature of documentation:  to explain a function of the gameworld to the player in terms the player can understand (using words in English and sometimes--sometimes!--similes, metaphors, and analogies).  At that point, such a misinterpretation isn't a misinterpretation at all, it's just muddying the waters for the sake of having dirty water.

[Nyr]

Then again, the game's down right now, I'd be fine arguing a point that really has no reason to be argued.  Carry on.

[Jingo]

Pro-tip: you don't actually need to steal to be a good elf.

Convincing the guy next to you to buy you a drink or do you a favor is just as good.

I've never considered it a test of courage, but really just a test of cleverness.

[X-D]

"Among elves, theft is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage."

By itself, this may or may not be confusing.  Sometimes, if comparisons are confusing, changing the order of comparison/contrast can change the way the sentence works.  In this case, changing it around doesn't really change the way the sentence works, it just changes the order:

Quote
"Among elves, theft is more of a test of courage than a crime."

Actually, and only for the sake of argument right now. Changing it around DOES change the meaning.

In the first, it is stated that Theft is NOT a crime, "per se" IE in and of itself. Which would also mean there are cases where it might be a crime, but for all intents and purposes it is NOT a crime. But more of or more like a test of courage, That does not mean it is actually a test of courage, only like one.

When you changed it around you made it a crime, something the first sentence says it is in fact not. But still more LIKE something else, which again is not saying it is actually something else.

So, First sentence, "Not a crime,(in and of itself) much like a test of courage", in the second, "Is a crime but more like a test of courage."

Or, in attempt to be clear, first, is not this, closer to this, in second Is this But closer to this. Or, It is Red, but closer to cat.

OH, and BTW Nyr, there is one point in all this that we are actually agreeing on, I think. That of roleplay freedom with a concept, in all of this I am simply trying to point that freedom out by stating that it is not saying it IS a test of courage, only likened too.

(Moving on)
When I use Steal it is in a very general term, I'm pretty sure the docs say in many places that Theft can be swindling, gaining an advantagous bargain, fraud and more. Maybe we should simply say that all elves enjoy larceny or the act of getting something for nothing.

[Lizzie]

Well getting something from nothing is alchemy isn't it? So that would indicate elves like alchemy. Which would imply that they have gold. It's really a shame too since steel is (or should be) a whole lot more valueable than gold, in a world of wood swords and chitin shields.

[Kalai]

Well getting something from nothing is alchemy isn't it? So that would indicate elves like alchemy. Which would imply that they have gold. It's really a shame too since steel is (or should be) a whole lot more valueable than gold, in a world of wood swords and chitin shields.

Alchemy is turning lead into gold, in Arm those are probably of similar (high) value.

[Spoon]

It says:

Roleplaying:

Descended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery. Among elves, theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage. Highly distrustful of all persons outside their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to test the trustworthiness of any companion. Due to their nature as runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can forgive the riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride on mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

Wit covers quite a lot of ground.

[Nyr]

That missing phrase meant a lot.

[X-D]

Indeed

[lordcooper]

I'm mainly posting here to thank both X-D and Nyr for the entertainment   

Secondly, and purely out of curiosity:

theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers

As opposed to what other kinds of theft?

[FantasyWriter]

Mugging, breaking and entering.

[Armaddict]

Meh.

The way everyone is talking about it makes it so simple.  There are other things to steal than items from someone's inventory.  The enjoyment of elves doesn't come from a happy pickpocket spree.  It comes with the reasons for doing it.  If that makes sense.

[Lizzie]

Examples of stealing:

• Using the barter skill at a shop to get something for less than the actual asking price (you're stealing that little bit of their profit)
  
• NOT using the barter skill, but roleplaying a barter session with another PC to get a better price than what they're asking.
  
• Killing someone (stealing their life)
• Engaging someone in a long-winded pointless story that you enjoy telling, without care of whether or not they like hearing (stealing their time)
• Setting them up with that long-winded story so that someone else can get there and pk them (double points - stealing victim's time, and stealing PK'ers efforts so you don't have to do the work yourself)
• Influencing a templar into -not- charging you for your merchant's token (stealing their income)
• Convincing some grebber in the scrub to "let you" skin the tregil they just killed, in exchange for the hide (stealing their kill, aka poaching)
• Through regular visits, setting someone up to get into the habit of buying you a drink every single time you show up when they're there (stealing their money and their time)

And it goes on and on and on. There are all potential "mindsets" of what an elf could be thinking, in regards to what constitutes "stealing."

[Spoon]

I'm not really down with killing or wasting people's time as forms of stealing. It's not literally stealing anything, it's conceptual. Surely something must transfer from one person's possession to another's for it to be they kind of stealing the docs talk about.

[Marauder Moe]

Meh.  Personally I don't care for this concept of "bartering is stealing" or "barding is stealing", etc.  Just about any interaction could be classified as theft that way, and thus players of elves pretty much end up ignoring the elven theft culture.  (I also don't think that murder is stealing either... it's kind of a class above, even for elves.)

I think it's only theft if you have something tangible to show for it and the victim would be angry at you should they learn all the facts involved.

By that qualification, I don't believe that anything in Lizzie's list is theft.

[Marauder Moe]

I suppose that post was a little harsh.  I'm not saying elves have to steal, because I understand that (from a player's standpoint at least) it's really not an easy thing to pull off.

So, here's some idea on how to roleplay the elven theft culture without actually stealing:
*Have a great interest in stories regarding theft.
*Constantly be coming up with ideas for a good theft or con.
*Create stories and/or songs about clever cons.
*Lie about having accomplished thieving exploits. (Optionally, bribe someone to help act it out in front of your friends.)
*Help your more daring elven tribemates with their thefts.

[Lizzie]

I'm getting my information directly from the official docs. The official docs state that an elf can, and would, consider shrewd merchanting to be a form of thievery. There are other official docs of specific tribes, that expand the "philosophy of thievery" to include taking of lives.  It is one example of what -can- be considered theivery, according to the official game docs.

If you disagree, perhaps take it up with the people who wrote the docs, and the people who approved them to be included as official. I'm not the one who wrote this stuff. I'm just letting y'all know that you don't have to have the steal skill, or knock someone out to take their coded items, in order to consider yourself a thief. Anyone who scams anyone out of anything, is a thief. Extortion is also thievery. Conversely, bribery can be a form of thievery, if the elf feels they're getting more for their money than they believe the money is worth.

All of these things *can be considered* thievery to an elf. A human might or might not see it that way, but an elf would.

[Marauder Moe]

Haggling is a borderline situation, which depends on the specifics involved I suppose.  My assessment is based (partially) off this line:

To an elf, theft is: "Taking anything that would not be given if the possessor knew all of the facts."

[Lizzie]

My source was much more specific:

Con-artists of any sort are thieves. Muggers are thieves, albeit less subtle ones. Even traders are thieves - indeed, many elves consider trading to be just a sophisticated form of theft. This makes many elves become merchants, but they tend to be the least scrupulous merchants around. An elven merchant will try to get much more for their wares than they think they deserve, because this is the basis of the theft. But of course, a clever customer might bargain his way into paying less than what the wares are worth, in which case the elf would think that they had been stolen from - a great source of angst for an elf! This makes elven merchants go to no ends to make sure that the customer never gets what he or she paid for.

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elven.html

The part about murder is an extension of mugging, which is in specific clan docs but not specific to that clan. Not sure why it isn't included in the public docs. It's an example of one possible justification for an elf to kill someone, if the circumstances warrant it.

[Marauder Moe]

If you murder someone for their stuff, sure, that's stealing.  (But not very artfully, as the docs comment regarding mugging.)

My objection for that one is to "stealing their life".  I don't like the notion of stealing intangibles like life, time, or whatever.  But if there's non-public documentation that says otherwise (for a specific group or elves in general), well... that'd be new evidence for me to evaluate.

[Spoon]

Someone write up an elven philosopher. Then another elven philosopher to contradict the first. The we start an inter tribe jihad about what's considered proper stealing.

[Sam]

I would place my chips on assuming that elves wouldn't place any sort of pride on intengibles; such as time, life, prospects, future sales, pride, etc... If elves are an ego driven breed, they would need tangible proof to prove that they were either artful or courageous. To have anything less, the other skinnies would and probably could just say, in elven, "Uh.. No you didn't."

[Armaddict]

Someone write up an elven philosopher. Then another elven philosopher to contradict the first. The we start an inter tribe jihad about what's considered proper stealing.

Nah, they'd just steal each other's ideas.

[Potaje]

Artful.. hmm, Stealing something from someones pocket, then replacing it with poop. Then when they go to get the thing they grab a handful of, squishy smelly. and your friends can laugh and say, well done.

[palomar]

On the topic of playing a good elf, I suggest you read the following post. I am not the original creator of it, but for some reason I forgot to write down who was. It's from the old gdb. It's focused on desert elf roleplay, but I think some parts are applicable on city elf roleplay as well.


Thoughts about Desert Elves

There are two major underlying themes with most elven tribes: Pride and Survival.

Every tribe is proud to be a desert elf. To be a real elf. Being born and raised in a climate where death is literally around every dune or shrug to merely survive is a huge deal. And from this comes the pride in living and being a tribal desert elf.

Survival is what every elf strives for. Without survival there is no tribe. This is an underlying thought in every encounter - does the outcome enhance survivability or do the actions increase survivability. To attack without thought without reason is to decrease survivability - making too many enemies will destroy the tribe. Always pick the targets carefully. Survival is usually more important than pride.

In a place where there is no law (the wilds) then custom takes the place of
law as the security structure. Without custom then everyone would attack
everyone else. With customs one can become assured of a base level of
security.

For example, it is the custom to greet and announce others that are met in
the wilds when there is no intent to attack. The greeting is a message
stating "This is who I am and this is my tribe" with the underlying message
of "by revealing myself to you I am telling you I am not going to attack you right now." One who then refuses to respond (refuses to tell their name and tribe) is signaling their intent to attack. One who only partially answers or lies is showing rudeness and it is a calculated insult.

Each custom became a custom because it enhances survivability and therefore it creates a structure of security around an action. By having a predictable series of actions one can anticipate and survive. Through these rituals of custom the Desert Tribes can interoperate to engage in trade, negotiations, and alliances. Without these rituals of custom no tribe would ever be able to interact with another tribe in a meaningful way other than being 'at war.'

Desert Tribes aren't roving bands of raiders they are highly structured family units. Trust is found only within the tribe because resources are so scarce. The constant struggle to survive defines the desert tribes and has determined how and why they act the way they do. Playing a desert elf isn't like any other role in the game - there is a very rich tapestry of histories, customs, and belief systems that vary from tribe to tribe. Each tribe has figured out what it needs to do to survive and therefore all elves in those tribes follow the rules of the tribe. Anyone who wishes to play the 'exception to the rule' had better not even bother with a Desert Elf. That being said, there are enough options and variety within the tribes to basically play anything.

I always laugh when I see tribals who gear themselves up, for example, all in Kuraci gear or Allanaki gear. By doing so, you are forsaking your tribal ways and abandoning the wastes for the 'comforts' of walled civilization. You have to remember, pride is a major thing to desert elves, it is what keeps them in the harshest conditions in the known world and surviving. All the weak tribes have already fallen to civilization.

I ask anyone who decides to give a Desert Elf a try to work on getting into the mindset of living in the wastes, surviving there, and taking pride in doing just that. Remember, elves don't mistrust everyone outside their tribe just because it makes them different to RP - it is because of living in a world of scarce resources where the competition is so fierce that if you fail to secure the basic necessities you die. By depriving another tribe of a resource you secure your own tribe and thus... it is in your best interest to always lie and cheat with the other tribes. This has gone on for so long that it has become almost ritualized and is respected. A skilled liar and thief will be respected by all tribes - they are just that good.

Abandon our western views when you enter the realm of elves - please leave them at the doorstep. Just take some time and imagine, if you would, that you grew up where weakness gets you killed - charity destroys your own tribe (if you give water to a stranger you just killed a baby in your own tribe because you deprived them of that much needed substance), and where flat out aggressiveness will kill your tribe. These are not options, this is how life is. Brutal, often short, and constantly a struggle for survival. The tribes may work together for a common goal but the reality is - in time they will split once more because Tribe X wants to secure the oasis while Tribe Y won't let them ('cause they want it as well and they don't share well).

All the Desert Elf tribes are nomadic or semi-nomadic because of the constraints of local resources. These tribes are still hunter / gatherer organizations and thus elves wander far and wide. Some of the tribes travel from the silt sea all the way to the grasslands. Others remain in the tablelands. Yet others remain within the confines of other geographical regions. Basically, if you are an elf from a tribe, read where your camps are made and stay within that region. I agree, it doesn't make much sense to me to see ATV out in the tablelands for no reason - but again, there may be valid reasons to go out there for specific incidents.

Most of the tribes have managed to carve out niches for themselves in terms of geographic regions and thus have the loose concept of 'territory' - if only in the meaning that is the general vicinity you will find these elves. How vigorous a tribe is in 'defending' its territory is up to the tribe in question. I know some of the tribes only have camps while its members spread out throughout the known world and thus only the camp would be defended. Others may consider a region to be theirs and will discourage outsiders from tresspassing. Once again there is a lot of variety here. Basically, the defining reason to maintain a territory is survival. If a tribe is large enough and powerful enough it can stake a claim and defend it - most of the tribes don't bother and wander in a nomadic manner.

And in my view any elf who is 'too proud to accept an insult from a stronger opponent' is a dead elf or a really stupid elf who doesn't quite grasp the reality of the environment he lives in. And yep, there are many stupid elves - that doesn't necessarily mean they are badly played it just means they are stupid. 

If you look at the histories of the tribes - any time there has been war you will notice a large reduction of the elven populations of each tribe. Yes, conflict will happen and battles will be fought - but usually over resources.

Still, a young tribe guided by people who are inexperienced will find themselves in conflict more often than a tribe with a longer tradition and estabilshed customs that guide them through these situations. This is part of natural growing pains and weed out the weak tribes from the others.

Many player run tribes ended completely after a series of conflicts that regularly wiped out the entire player base (or simple attrition due to hunting deaths). Others were wiped out a few times before the players who kept recreating new desert elf chars managed to establish a more secure base. Of these, some managed to navigate further growing pains and made it to a coded tribe with an established camp.

Just one thing I feel is worth making a point of - elven culture, as a whole, involves the respect of lying, stealing, tricking, and misleading. Therefore most conflicts should not arise from such situations - there is more likely to be a grudging respect and a burning desire to 'get back' at them. An elf will not normally come to blows before another elf steals from them - any that does typically will not live long (for some, survivability is a slowly acquired ability through multiple deaths).

As I said, leave Western views at the door when contemplating a Desert Elf. Such things as 'right and wrong' in regards to lying, stealing, cheating, trickery, mischief, and the like do not exist. Lying and thievery are highly regarded abilities. All of this stuff is, I believe, covered in the ample elven documentation and tribal documents but it's still good to go over from time to time.

That's not say outright aggression is a good, accepted thing...it's just something that I can see things escalating into. I imagine that inter-tribal murder happens in the wastes.

Absolutely. Killing an opposing tribal is a way to secure your own survivability since you are reducing competition to resources. But these situations will occur when it can be concealed who did it and if it is blundered... you may face extreme action from your own tribe for bringing it in direct conflict with another tribe. Tribal wars are costly and most tribes avoid them as much as they can. Still, they will happen and thus it is in the tribe's best interest to win. 

   

Here's a realistic situation that I've wondered about:

If a Salarri/Kadius foreigner is out on your lands taking your resources, what should you do? You don't know his language, so you can't trade with him. How do you manage to cheat him? What else can you do besides killing him?

Let's say you're a marksman and you have a few poisoned arrows. You're confident you could kill him quickly. Why shouldn't you?

In this situation - there are many things you can do. For one, you can ignore them knowing that Salarr, Kadius, or Kurac are incredibly strong and have been known to come in force if too many of their hunters fail to return. Bringing the wrath of the Merchant Houses down upon your tribe is one way to possibly be expelled from your own tribe or forced to make direct atonement for what was done. Such actions (if any) would be determined by the tribe involved.

Beyond that, if the situation is one of opportunitistic raiding and your tribe engages in such activities - by all means, have fun. The thing is, most tribes don't engage in raiding activities for a variety of self serving reasons.

Not knowing another's language is no reason why you still can't get the better of them. Going up and taking a threatening posture and then claiming their kill as your own is one fun thing to do. Another is to extort obsidian by taking out a purse and shaking it while leveling a spear at the intruder's chest.

Of course, you could fire off the poisoned arrow and then approach with a cure in hand... and once again, proceed with the shaking of a purse of coins to save the poor sucker's life.

The opportunities for exploitation are only limited by your own cunning and imagination.

Or, let's say you're in another competing tribe's territory. If you attacked the man, you'd draw the Salarri attention to them...they would be the ones attacked, and by weakening both of your competitors, you come out ahead. Slightly more risky, but isn't every dastardly deed a little risky?

Why shouldn't you do those things?

This is something an elf is more likely to pursue. Dress up as your rival tribe's manner and gear then 'raid' a few intruders. Let them deal with the fallout of your actions. Once again, the elf perpetuating these attacks needs to safeguard their own safety first. You wouldn't attack overwhelming odds, you wouldn't attack a clearly superior opponent. If you kill the mark - you fail to induce the desire conflict between the tribe and the Merchant House. And, again, some tribes simply do not condone random acts of raiding while others do. Each tribe has a set of guidelines on how to deal with strangers, intruders, and raiding that should be followed at all times.

[Fredd]

I always laugh when I see tribals who gear themselves up, for example, all in Kuraci gear or Allanaki gear. By doing so, you are forsaking your tribal ways and abandoning the wastes for the 'comforts' of walled civilization. You have to remember, pride is a major thing to desert elves, it is what keeps them in the harshest conditions in the known world and surviving. All the weak tribes have already fallen to civilization.

Alot of what you said is real good. But this line here, you need to reconsider. And here is why.

There are tribes (one I know for a fact but I beleave 2) that don't really craft. And they don't really trade. They raid for what the tribe needs. They go and steal, rob, and pillage, if needed, for there tribe. This means they are just as likely to be decked out in a Kuraci sandcloth set, as a desert elf gwoshi leather set. Possibly more so, since the kuraci stuff will be sitting in a bin free for anyone to use.

Now, if the d-elf in question went to Kurac, and paid two thousand black for a set of armor, which could have been used to supply water for the whole tribe, Yeah. There worth a laugh at. If they stole it from a roundear, they're worth your respect.

[Marshmellow]

I think, Fredd, that you're assigning more reason to wearing that than is necessary.

The people doing that may be raiders, yes, but I know for a fact that NO tribe has NO crafters, even the Fang or SLK, the two most likely to not have them represented by PCs.

[Fredd]

I think, Fredd, that you're assigning more reason to wearing that than is necessary.

The people doing that may be raiders, yes, but I know for a fact that NO tribe has NO crafters, even the Fang or SLK, the two most likely to not have them represented by PCs.

It's true, yes. There are SLK crafters. But the majority of what the tribe needs is done by hunting, or raiding.

I can't speak for the fangs, I haven't played one. I'm just stating, there are methods behind the madness. Not every d-elf wearing city gear is forsaking there heratage. Some are embracing it by doing so. There taking what there tribe needs.

[Zoltan]

I think, Fredd, that you're assigning more reason to wearing that than is necessary.

The people doing that may be raiders, yes, but I know for a fact that NO tribe has NO crafters, even the Fang or SLK, the two most likely to not have them represented by PCs.

It's true, yes. There are SLK crafters. But the majority of what the tribe needs is done by hunting, or raiding.

I can't speak for the fangs, I haven't played one. I'm just stating, there are methods behind the madness. Not every d-elf wearing city gear is forsaking there heratage. Some are embracing it by doing so. There taking what there tribe needs.

By completely draping themselves in that trash from the pit?

[lordcooper]

By utilizing clothing gained during a daring raid, that allows precious resources to be used for other, more essential ends?

[Fredd]

I think, Fredd, that you're assigning more reason to wearing that than is necessary.

The people doing that may be raiders, yes, but I know for a fact that NO tribe has NO crafters, even the Fang or SLK, the two most likely to not have them represented by PCs.

It's true, yes. There are SLK crafters. But the majority of what the tribe needs is done by hunting, or raiding.

I can't speak for the fangs, I haven't played one. I'm just stating, there are methods behind the madness. Not every d-elf wearing city gear is forsaking there heratage. Some are embracing it by doing so. There taking what there tribe needs.

By completely draping themselves in that trash from the pit?

By using what they take. By helping the tribe by taking what they need and perhapse trading it, for what the tribe need,s or using it, because its what the tribe needs at the time.

[Lizzie]

I think, Fredd, that you're assigning more reason to wearing that than is necessary.

The people doing that may be raiders, yes, but I know for a fact that NO tribe has NO crafters, even the Fang or SLK, the two most likely to not have them represented by PCs.

It's true, yes. There are SLK crafters. But the majority of what the tribe needs is done by hunting, or raiding.

I can't speak for the fangs, I haven't played one. I'm just stating, there are methods behind the madness. Not every d-elf wearing city gear is forsaking there heratage. Some are embracing it by doing so. There taking what there tribe needs.

By completely draping themselves in that trash from the pit?

Consider it adorning themselves in arrogant displays of their prowess, by wearing the garment of their latest victim. It might be a matter of pride, to the elf, to show off. In fact, maybe the more *variety* of "other peoples' shit" a d'elf is wearing, the more uber he -obviously- must be. A Kadian hunter's cloak, a Jihaen's belt, a Tor's pair of boots, a Salarri's satchel, a Dasari's um - well I'm sure there's something Dasaris own that a desert elf would want to brag about owning. You get the idea.

The d'elf wearing all this shit is saying "ALL OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE EITHER DIED AT MY HAND, OR GIVEN ME THEIR SHIT AT THE END OF MY BLADE - FEAR ME AND MY UBER TRIBE LOLOLOL"

It's a statement of supreme arrogance, to show off the spoils of your victims.

[Marshmellow]

...and sometimes to insult those others wearing similar clothes.  (I've seen tribals sporting clan-only gear for exactly this reason.)

[Zoltan]

I think, Fredd, that you're assigning more reason to wearing that than is necessary.

The people doing that may be raiders, yes, but I know for a fact that NO tribe has NO crafters, even the Fang or SLK, the two most likely to not have them represented by PCs.

It's true, yes. There are SLK crafters. But the majority of what the tribe needs is done by hunting, or raiding.

I can't speak for the fangs, I haven't played one. I'm just stating, there are methods behind the madness. Not every d-elf wearing city gear is forsaking there heratage. Some are embracing it by doing so. There taking what there tribe needs.

By completely draping themselves in that trash from the pit?

Consider it adorning themselves in arrogant displays of their prowess, by wearing the garment of their latest victim. It might be a matter of pride, to the elf, to show off. In fact, maybe the more *variety* of "other peoples' shit" a d'elf is wearing, the more uber he -obviously- must be. A Kadian hunter's cloak, a Jihaen's belt, a Tor's pair of boots, a Salarri's satchel, a Dasari's um - well I'm sure there's something Dasaris own that a desert elf would want to brag about owning. You get the idea.

The d'elf wearing all this shit is saying "ALL OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE EITHER DIED AT MY HAND, OR GIVEN ME THEIR SHIT AT THE END OF MY BLADE - FEAR ME AND MY UBER TRIBE LOLOLOL"

It's a statement of supreme arrogance, to show off the spoils of your victims.

Actually, that's pretty badass. I thought we were talking about a phenomenon of d-elves dressed the same as every other city-bound long-lived ranger/warrior. Scraps of city gear as ornamentation and trophies, sure, but a d-elf in a new, full set of Kuraci gear would make me go a little "wuh?".

[Majikal]

Consider it adorning themselves in arrogant displays of their prowess, by wearing the garment of their latest victim. It might be a matter of pride, to the elf, to show off. In fact, maybe the more *variety* of "other peoples' shit" a d'elf is wearing, the more uber he -obviously- must be. A Kadian hunter's cloak, a Jihaen's belt, a Tor's pair of boots, a Salarri's satchel, a Dasari's um - well I'm sure there's something Dasaris own that a desert elf would want to brag about owning. You get the idea.

The d'elf wearing all this shit is saying "ALL OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE EITHER DIED AT MY HAND, OR GIVEN ME THEIR SHIT AT THE END OF MY BLADE - FEAR ME AND MY UBER TRIBE LOLOLOL"

It's a statement of supreme arrogance, to show off the spoils of your victims.

What lizzie said.
Also, a lot of d-elf tribes consider trophies a big part of their culture, slk and Fang I know wear tattoos scars and 'trophies' as a symbol of pride and as a warning to those around. Blackwing I believe do something similar but it's been a long time since I've done any dealing with blackwing culture. Some tribes do, some tribes don't. Just cause a d-elf is running around in more than a loincloth, a tattered shirt and a spear doesn't mean he's a bad elf..

[Agnor]

Just wondering, would that also make elves the ultimate in "buy local" mentality? Since, unless your buying something you cannot get from your tribe, that's allowing the needless distribution of resources outside the clan?

And about wearing outsider gear, that one sounds tricky. Yes, whatever will give you the best chance of surviving would be appropriate to wear, especcially (possibly only) if you didn't have to pay for it. On the other hand it would be admitting that human made items are superior to your own tribes ability. Maybe this would depend a little on how proud the tribe is about it's crafting abilities, and you could always get the materials and ask that a wonderful mater crafted create an identical item with their superior skilland in the tribes identifying fashion couldn't you (maybe a master draftees once a month request, or ask a imm to have a npc master crafter rp it out with you?)?

[palomar]

Consider it adorning themselves in arrogant displays of their prowess, by wearing the garment of their latest victim. It might be a matter of pride, to the elf, to show off. In fact, maybe the more *variety* of "other peoples' shit" a d'elf is wearing, the more uber he -obviously- must be. A Kadian hunter's cloak, a Jihaen's belt, a Tor's pair of boots, a Salarri's satchel, a Dasari's um - well I'm sure there's something Dasaris own that a desert elf would want to brag about owning. You get the idea.

The d'elf wearing all this shit is saying "ALL OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE EITHER DIED AT MY HAND, OR GIVEN ME THEIR SHIT AT THE END OF MY BLADE - FEAR ME AND MY UBER TRIBE LOLOLOL"

It's a statement of supreme arrogance, to show off the spoils of your victims.

What lizzie said.
Also, a lot of d-elf tribes consider trophies a big part of their culture, slk and Fang I know wear tattoos scars and 'trophies' as a symbol of pride and as a warning to those around. Blackwing I believe do something similar but it's been a long time since I've done any dealing with blackwing culture. Some tribes do, some tribes don't. Just cause a d-elf is running around in more than a loincloth, a tattered shirt and a spear doesn't mean he's a bad elf..

The post I quoted (as I stated, I didn't write it myself) most likely meant the situation where a d-elf runs off to buy a full set of GMH or city gear for whatever reason they have to do so. IMO, a d-elf would be proud of their clan's crafts and the local "fashion", and use that primarily. If the tribe is known for its bamuk hide armor and most hunters in the tribe us that, I'd say it should be common for the PCs to use it as well. It doesn't have to go to the extreme, though. On the other hand, I think showing off various bits of gear and trinkets is a cool way to tell the world that your d-elf has been through some stuff and has stories to tell.

[Jingo]

If there are no player characters making armor in the tribe anyways; you kind of need to get it from somewhere else.

[Jingo]

Consider it adorning themselves in arrogant displays of their prowess, by wearing the garment of their latest victim. It might be a matter of pride, to the elf, to show off. In fact, maybe the more *variety* of "other peoples' shit" a d'elf is wearing, the more uber he -obviously- must be. A Kadian hunter's cloak, a Jihaen's belt, a Tor's pair of boots, a Salarri's satchel, a Dasari's um - well I'm sure there's something Dasaris own that a desert elf would want to brag about owning.

While otherwise a good point. If a desert elf of any tribe consistently parades around trophies from those clans, I would give them a life expectancy of about five minutes. At the very least they are inviting their tribe to be attacked.

[jstorrie]

Consider it adorning themselves in arrogant displays of their prowess, by wearing the garment of their latest victim. It might be a matter of pride, to the elf, to show off. In fact, maybe the more *variety* of "other peoples' shit" a d'elf is wearing, the more uber he -obviously- must be. A Kadian hunter's cloak, a Jihaen's belt, a Tor's pair of boots, a Salarri's satchel, a Dasari's um - well I'm sure there's something Dasaris own that a desert elf would want to brag about owning.

While otherwise a good point. If a desert elf of any tribe consistently parades around trophies from those clans, I would give them a life expectancy of about five minutes. At the very least they are inviting their tribe to be attacked.

You must not have been playing much recently!

[Jingo]

Consider it adorning themselves in arrogant displays of their prowess, by wearing the garment of their latest victim. It might be a matter of pride, to the elf, to show off. In fact, maybe the more *variety* of "other peoples' shit" a d'elf is wearing, the more uber he -obviously- must be. A Kadian hunter's cloak, a Jihaen's belt, a Tor's pair of boots, a Salarri's satchel, a Dasari's um - well I'm sure there's something Dasaris own that a desert elf would want to brag about owning.

While otherwise a good point. If a desert elf of any tribe consistently parades around trophies from those clans, I would give them a life expectancy of about five minutes. At the very least they are inviting their tribe to be attacked.

You must not have been playing much recently!

Maybe. Or maybe I think some elf players aren't thinking about how they represent the game world.

This is of course assuming that those trophies were taken from raiding.

[MeTekillot]

Actually, a desert elf parading around gear from various clans end up with those clans paying tribute to that elves tribe, because that's how it works.

[Jingo]

Actually, a desert elf parading around gear from various clans end up with those clans paying tribute to that elves tribe, because that's how it works.

I hope this is sarcasm.

Because I really don't like the idea of desert elf clans being the invincible desert stiders that they sometimes act like.

[Fredd]

Everyone is saying "Oh but X clan would come retaliate"

You have to remember something. All the delf tribes may not trust/like eachother. But they like roundears less. A clan that comes marching into the pah without Searius backing of a couple other clans is mostly asking for al the tribes in the area to come say hello with arrows...

And You know Blackwing HATES when people bring armys around there trade route.


Edit: I'm not saying they would nessisarilly team up (though some tribes would) What I am saying is that a large force of roundears is going to piss off and scare everyone around. And this generally resaults in one thing. Fight or Flight. And since the roundies are encroaching on D-elf land. Guerilla warfare will probably ensue.

[Hot_Dancer]

I like to see elves wear regional goods. Adds to the theme some, that they're not just a collection of stats and numbers.
It's cool to be able to reasonably identify the heritage of a tribal of any race by what they're wearing.

To my knowledge, the elven tribes have never unified against a human-based enemy to significant scale. Via their distrustful
nature to anything outside the tribe, a suitable militia can happily come through and slaughter any elven encampment they
come upon as long as another elven raiding party doesn't beat them to the punch against said camp. Been there, done that.

The only thing that keeps a raider elf's family safe in game is the metagaming and general logistics of chasing down the tribe.
The return on rounding up, chasing down and slaughtering an elven tribe isn't much considering the effort required. Older
PC's who could be more than willing to hold grudge against every new desert elf of some offending tribe (and plot their pending
demise) is typically more interested in interacting with a new persona in the gameworld and the dynamic an active elven tribe
can bring at the peak of their activity instead of killing them because of the offense of another tribemember.

Cheers,
HD

[Cindy42]

The d'elf wearing all this shit is saying "ALL OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE EITHER DIED AT MY HAND, OR GIVEN ME THEIR SHIT AT THE END OF MY BLADE - FEAR ME AND MY UBER TRIBE LOLOLOL"

this going in my signature Lizzie. its awesome. speak now or forever hold your peace.

[Fredd]

To my knowledge, the elven tribes have never unified against a human-based enemy to significant scale.

Yeah they have. Why do you think theres no more human tribals in the pah really?

And again, I didn't say unified, i said each tribe would probably seek to harass the roundears untill they leave. Unless the size of the force is superiorly large by a considerable ammount., Then they would probably hide in the nitches of the pah until they left.

And if blackwing sent a messenger to each tribe saying "team up" I am willing to bet the tribes would, if for no reason but fear of blackwing's superior numbers.

The numbers needed would have to be large, on the part of the humans. Something like The Arm or His Legions coming with the backing of a Noble house, I would guess. Not that such a thing couldn't happen (i've seen it happen, but i can't say more, still to ic)

But like, House Salarr couldn't muster the manpower alone, I don't think.... And i beleave that the d-elves don't like House Salarr to begin with.

[Anaiah]

Yeah they have. Why do you think theres no more human tribals in the pah really?

That supposition is incorrect. If you want to know more, you can find out IC. They not only exist, there are coded camps.

[Fredd]

Yeah they have. Why do you think theres no more human tribals in the pah really?

That supposition is incorrect. If you want to know more, you can find out IC. They not only exist, there are coded camps.

I was going by the doc's for the tribes themselves. Like the Seik, who specifically state they were chased out. (that's in the public documentations, I beleave)
I simply meant that there arent nearly as many as there was.

[Nyr]

This is getting remarkably close to IC events.  The original question has been answered, and now opinions (mostly incorrect) are being floated around about whether tribes would band together or not, or whether there are human tribals in the Pah (documentation proves otherwise).  Let that be determined IC.  Go armchair quarterback such a hypothetical in-game with your buds at the Gaj or the Tooth.