Playing a good elf

[spicemustflow]

Lastly, noting all of the above again, Elves should be, for the most part GREAT cowards, this is something that is more fun to play then you might think, a desire to live no matter the means because dying damages the tribe. And remember, the smaller the tribe, the more important each elf is to the tribe, something to think about for you celf tribes of one.

Not necessarily. They should be capable of great sacrifice for their tribe. And they are prone to risky behaviour.

[Cutthroat]

Lastly, noting all of the above again, Elves should be, for the most part GREAT cowards, this is something that is more fun to play then you might think, a desire to live no matter the means because dying damages the tribe. And remember, the smaller the tribe, the more important each elf is to the tribe, something to think about for you celf tribes of one.

Not necessarily. They should be capable of great sacrifice for their tribe. And they are prone to risky behaviour.

Yeah, elves use theft as a test of courage. I honestly would expect daring, yet well-planned, thefts and heists.

[Cindy42]

see, i didn't know any of this, you guys are awesome.

[Marshmellow]

The concept of stealing from each other, in tribe, I have to disagree with, in many cases.  Tribes are tightly-knit groups that rely on each other for survival.  Some tribes have different customs (read the Red Fang documentation some day), but in general, they should trust that their tribe mates will never do anything that could harm them in any way.  They should be more concerned about the tribes well-being, and tripping up another tribe-mate in any way could cause real problems.  Now, don't get me wrong, because they don't have to like each other, but they have to trust each other.

Also, tribes generally consider what is owned by an individual owned by the tribe first.  You can't steal what you already partly own.  Maybe you'll pick dude's pocket and give what you stole back to him immediately, making fun, but actually taking something because your elf wants it and other elf in your tribe had it?  I think that's people assigning human motivations to elves.

[Zoan]

Despite all this, I bet if your elf goes and pinches something off another elf in Arm, the victim won't be like, 'HA-HA! Fuck you, guy,' he'll be like, 'Backstabbing that motherfucker. He took my rotted goddamn petoch!'

[Spoon]

The important bits:

Admiration of stealing, us and them mentality, they're too proud to ride.


The rest is up to you. The above is the only black and white part of paying an elf. It depends on your PC and their tribe. Make up some nifty background.


As X-D says, an elf might act cowardly because they believe if they die their tribe will suffer. They could also believe the complete opposite as in spicemusflow's post, that sacrificing themselves for their tribe would be a great honour. They might also be so fucking proud of themselves that they do something stupid. Depends on the tribe and depends on the elf. The docs say that elves are impressed by stealing through use of nimble fingers, though it's widely accepted that elves love any and all kinds of stealing.

It's easy to find playing an elf daunting, as if there's a specific way to play one and if you step out of line you'll ruin the game for everyone. Not true. Just stick to the first three points, the rest will come naturally if you create a good character.

[X-D]

Of course, If by dying they will surely be strengthening the tribe in some way...but I see that as being quite rare, specially if you put in elven pride, it would be rather hard for an elf to think somebody carries greater value then him or that the tribe would be better off without his/her greatness. Risky behavier, shrug, maybe, but calculated risk and one that any elf should be perfectally willing to run away from to try again another day.

I do not remember anywhere in the docs it saying anything about elven theft as being a test of courage. Cunning, sure, int, yes again, skill, sure. Courage, no, that would be a more human way of thinking IMO.

Also, don't bother so much with trying to figure out and post exceptions, we all know that anybody can find some way to figure them out, good for you.

But as a rule, what I posted should be true for all elves. And, as a rule, if you are playing one you should be aiming for the norm, as a staffer posted, exceptions can and sometimes will be stored or at least cause bad account notes etc. If you wish to play the exception, play a human.

And marsh, the key word there is "Harm" Theft, by its nature is not harmful, the intent can be, which I covered in my post in fact.

If your elf has 5 skinning knives, it will not harm him to lose one, in fact, it might be helpful to the tribe if some are taken.
The tribemate would know the difference between a harmful theft and benign theft.

In fact, I think your assigning human motivations, Elves do not steal from need or want, but from enjoyment and a natural bent towards just taking things. Sure, sometimes the need of something might apply to the theft but that is not usually the reason for stealing it, it was stolen because it could be, if they happen to need it as well, great.

As to reading docs (snickers) Some of the docs in this game are almost completely player written. Take a guess on who the three main contributers are in your stated case.

Still, I am posting general, or "as a rule" Sure, each tribe is different therefore the elves of said tribe can be played somewhat differently, but the three main points of my first post still stand in all of them. The topic is playing a good elf, nnot playing a good Soh elf or playing a good Jaxa Pah elf, general elf.

PS, will check on that test of courage deal if ginka ever comes up, but I'm pretty sure that has more to do with certain tribes, if it is in there at all.

[Kalai]

I seem to remember the words 'test of courage' myself, but... bah...

[JustAnotherGuy]

Since we're talking about elves here... one thing that I want to point out with elves and stealing is the fact that they steal because of the challenge, the risk, the possible threat of being caught... not for the monetary gain.  I challenge all elven players to steal something and then just toss it aside majority of the time... well, unless it might be useful for the tribe, but for own personal gain or monetary reasons... to me that's not very elf like.  Now if you're a loner... you are your tribe, so a slight bit different there.

I've recently come to playing Elves for the first time, and I am enjoying them greatly.

[Cutthroat]

Roleplaying: Elves highly distrust anyone who is not part of their immediate family, or of their tribe, who has not been tested severely to earn their trust. Elves will go to great lengths to contrive and execute these tests, even to the point of putting their own lives at risk. All elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and thievery. Among elves, theft is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage. Due to their nature as runners, all elves find riding mounts to be a shameful act (though they can usually forgive the use of mounts by other races).

From the google cache, on the "Races" page.

[X-D]

For the record, my last elf stole stuff he did not need ALL the time, and often would leave it someplace, give it back if that was funny or to benefit him or his tribe, or, in most cases, simply "lost" the item(s). Sometimes sell or trade back to the owner for something he actually did need...which I have to admit, when playing an elf that is the perfect double theft.

And yes, "More of" being key, meaning you the player will find it easier to see it this way, not that it actually is.

[Cutthroat]

For the record, my last elf stole stuff he did not need ALL the time, and often would leave it someplace, give it back if that was funny or to benefit him or his tribe, or, in most cases, simply "lost" the item(s).

I think that's fine, even expected. As an elf, sometimes, you're stealing for the sake of stealing. It's like hunting for sport.

Giving a second read to the blurb I posted, I guess the docs could be interpreted as saying that elf-on-elf theft is courageous, but elf-on-whatever-else isn't. However, mixing the bent towards thievery and the feeling of superiority, I think that elves might try stealing from prominent members of other races just to say they could (and did).

Edit to add:

And yes, "More of" being key, meaning you the player will find it easier to see it this way, not that it actually is.

I don't get that out of the phrase "more of".

[Marc]

[delete please.]

[X-D]

Couple elves back, mine and another tribemate used to constantly steal from each other in one upsmanship, or other tribemates just to leave the items around camp or near it with interesting drop descs, lots of fun.

Awww, I liked that post Marc.

More of, equal to Somewhat like or Simular to, etc etc, IE, if staff meant to say It IS a test of courage they would have put it exactly that way. Instead they put it in a way that means "Well, it is kind of like this...but not exactly."

[Nyr]

I can tell the addicts by the people debating semantics for docs they can't even access...

For the record, just parse that whole sentence and reword it somewhat--it makes sense.  Among elves, theft is more of a test of courage than a crime.

[Cindy42]

Couple elves back, mine and another tribemate used to constantly steal from each other in one upsmanship, or other tribemates just to leave the items around camp or near it with interesting drop descs, lots of fun.

Awww, I liked that post Marc.

More of, equal to Somewhat like or Simular to, etc etc, IE, if staff meant to say It IS a test of courage they would have put it exactly that way. Instead they put it in a way that means "Well, it is kind of like this...but not exactly."

maybe city elves and tribal elves and between different tribes and cities might see stealing differently. between individuals would be a given. i remember these two elves; i wouldn't bet 1000 sid to be sleep in a room with one, but i'd feel safe, monetarily, in a room with the other, in terms of my stuff getting nicked.

i wonder how rinthi elves do it... maybe they could be, besides a starving tribe, the only elves that steal out of necessity. but given that whole, its an honorable thing deal, maybe stealing to survive is degrading? not that most people in the rinth would care about their honor, i imagine, at least from what i've seen.

i assumed that elves would diminish the honorable art of stealing if they needed to do so to survive, because of the all-powerful zalanthan rule that everyone does what they must to survive and suicide is not considered a possibility. i read that in the docs somewhere.

[X-D]

That actually makes less sense Nyr.

Among elves the sun is more of an apple then a giant glowing ball of plasma.

[Kalai]

For Humans:
<Crime --------------------------------------- Test of Courage>
                  ^

For Elves:
<Crime --------------------------------------- Test of Courage>
                                                                ^


apparently?

[X-D]

Looks that way Kalai.

Though I will continue to see that as simply a guide/reminder that elves simply do not see it as a bad thing.

[Kalai]

That actually makes less sense Nyr.

Among elves the sun is more of an apple then a giant glowing ball of plasma.

Yum.

[Nyr]

That actually makes less sense Nyr.

Among elves the sun is more of an apple then a giant glowing ball of plasma.

My apologies, I'd be glad to elaborate to clear up your confusion.

Analogies, metaphors, and similes are frequently used in communication.  When describing a culture or race (fictional or otherwise), it is occasionally useful to use one of these devices in order to adequately understand said culture or race.  In this instance, we have the sentence:

"Among elves, theft is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage."

By itself, this may or may not be confusing.  Sometimes, if comparisons are confusing, changing the order of comparison/contrast can change the way the sentence works.  In this case, changing it around doesn't really change the way the sentence works, it just changes the order:

"Among elves, theft is more of a test of courage than a crime."

Both sentences describe the same concept; one just structures it differently.  They both say the same thing, which is to say "elves view theft differently than humans and other races do."  However, it can't really be stated that this concept is what the single sentence means.  Why is that sentence there, then?  Contextually, it is placed right after another sentence, which adds to the piece:

All elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and thievery. Among elves, theft is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage.

The first sentence works fine by itself.  The second sentence refers back to the concept in the first sentence:  that elves in Zalanthas have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery.  This is personified in their views on theft, which are such that theft is not viewed so much as a crime, but more as a test of courage.  This is a cultural difference.  The writer of the documentation didn't include that line there simply because it would be easier for the player to visualize it (though that is true), but also because it adequately describes the difference in that culture, leaving enough room for some role-played leeway.

The documentation is documentation.  One can semantically break it apart and misinterpret it and and say "well, really, it's more like this to explain it to the player," but that describes the very nature of documentation:  to explain a function of the gameworld to the player in terms the player can understand (using words in English and sometimes--sometimes!--similes, metaphors, and analogies).  At that point, such a misinterpretation isn't a misinterpretation at all, it's just muddying the waters for the sake of having dirty water.

[Nyr]

Then again, the game's down right now, I'd be fine arguing a point that really has no reason to be argued.  Carry on.

[Jingo]

Pro-tip: you don't actually need to steal to be a good elf.

Convincing the guy next to you to buy you a drink or do you a favor is just as good.

I've never considered it a test of courage, but really just a test of cleverness.

[X-D]

"Among elves, theft is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage."

By itself, this may or may not be confusing.  Sometimes, if comparisons are confusing, changing the order of comparison/contrast can change the way the sentence works.  In this case, changing it around doesn't really change the way the sentence works, it just changes the order:

Quote
"Among elves, theft is more of a test of courage than a crime."

Actually, and only for the sake of argument right now. Changing it around DOES change the meaning.

In the first, it is stated that Theft is NOT a crime, "per se" IE in and of itself. Which would also mean there are cases where it might be a crime, but for all intents and purposes it is NOT a crime. But more of or more like a test of courage, That does not mean it is actually a test of courage, only like one.

When you changed it around you made it a crime, something the first sentence says it is in fact not. But still more LIKE something else, which again is not saying it is actually something else.

So, First sentence, "Not a crime,(in and of itself) much like a test of courage", in the second, "Is a crime but more like a test of courage."

Or, in attempt to be clear, first, is not this, closer to this, in second Is this But closer to this. Or, It is Red, but closer to cat.

OH, and BTW Nyr, there is one point in all this that we are actually agreeing on, I think. That of roleplay freedom with a concept, in all of this I am simply trying to point that freedom out by stating that it is not saying it IS a test of courage, only likened too.

(Moving on)
When I use Steal it is in a very general term, I'm pretty sure the docs say in many places that Theft can be swindling, gaining an advantagous bargain, fraud and more. Maybe we should simply say that all elves enjoy larceny or the act of getting something for nothing.

[Lizzie]

Well getting something from nothing is alchemy isn't it? So that would indicate elves like alchemy. Which would imply that they have gold. It's really a shame too since steel is (or should be) a whole lot more valueable than gold, in a world of wood swords and chitin shields.