Did half-giants get smarter suddenly?

[Case]

Every single HG I have met I have enjoyed and not found to be breaching docs. I'm sure there's some bad ones out there but I like to give players the benefit of the doubt.

[X-D]

I will send out a general kudos to those that do really try on the HGs, there have been good ones. And playing one well is a lot of work.

Oh, as to the comment on teaching a HG to ambush, sure, you could, but the HG has ZERO imagination he would be able to perform that ambush and only that ambush, coming up with the idea that it would apply to other areas using other people against other people simply would not be something a HG is capable of.

Guards and soldiers, that is perfect for HG, Hey, stand here, do not leave, smash anybody that human over there tells you to. Though, even then the others would have to remind him, least till he was well trained at standing in place waiting for somebody to smash.

[lepxii]

X-D - a raptor, gortok, or tembo (or many an earth animal) will ambush. I wouldn't presume a HG is -less- intelligent than a beast.

[Riev]

Wow. I actually feel a bit better, and damn near respected. Are you sure you are XD?


That example does seem pretty rough. I would like to think my HGs would be in that position but honestly, as HG2, I would probably go along with 'hit that guy when he comes running'.


I find this discussion slowly outlining issues, and hopefully positive aspects of HGs so at least MY play will be better.

[Gunnerblaster]

X-D - a raptor, gortok, or tembo (or many an earth animal) will ambush. I wouldn't presume a HG is -less- intelligent than a beast.

Most animals I see, in-game, have a tendency to "ambush" (attack you) whether or not they have numbers or not. I've seen lone raptors charge whole groups of people - Only to be summarily slaughtered and turned into a puddle in the sand. There isn't a 'coded' instinct amongst most aggressive animals other then to attack, thoughtlessly.

To me, animals have primal instinct (the ability to accidentally be in the right place at the right time) while Half-giants, more or less, lack -any- instinct.

[lepxii]

Most IRL are able to assess the odds of their success, and then attack. Predators pick on prey that they can take down.

Armageddon's coded mobs are (mostly) dumber. Animals and non-animal (e.g. aggro humans) alike.

[Dakota]

off topic sorta..

are HGs smarter than a Mantis?

[Gunnerblaster]

off topic sorta..

are HGs smarter than a Mantis?

No. Not by a long shot.

[WarriorPoet]

I've seen plenty of HG's that were a blast to play with. The role is kind of perfect for comic relief, but I've witnessed some very solid roleplay despite this. My largest problem with some HG's is that they're too witty for being so dumb. You heckle one, even subtly, and their peanut sized brain comes back with a stinging riposte. But saying 99.99% of HG's are played like shit is pretty... shitty thing to say. It's a difficult role to pull off and not everyone can do it, but I've seen a number of the big bastards that were solid characters, fully developed as individuals and more or less in-line woth the documentation.

[janeshephard]

I've seen plenty of HG's that were a blast to play with. The role is kind of perfect for comic relief, but I've witnessed some very solid roleplay despite this. My largest problem with some HG's is that they're too witty for being so dumb. You heckle one, even subtly, and their peanut sized brain comes back with a stinging riposte. But saying 99.99% of HG's are played like shit is pretty... shitty thing to say. It's a difficult role to pull off and not everyone can do it, but I've seen a number of the big bastards that were solid characters, fully developed as individuals and more or less in-line woth the documentation.

Two excellent points. They make superb companions; as if that role is tailored for them. Also there is a player there controlling them; so yeah when they feel like having fun they reply in turn.

The worlds most awesome HG I played with would say "WHAT?" whenever I said something to him that went over his head. It always made me lol.

[LostArm]

I've played a long-lived HG and I got compliments and complaints, even a note from a staff wondering if I was playing too smart. It is a difficult task over the course of a long time to continually play with the same mentality, but possible. I think one of the hardest parts, and what the others players have to keep in mind, is you also have to take into account the HG's background. Has the HG in question been playing in a clan for five or more IG years? Because after that long, that HG will probably be so accustomed to doing things a certain way because that is how that clan wants it, that others players at first glance might think that HG is playing smart when in actuality they are doing exactly what they are supposed to, how they are supposed to do it. Though it is also good if the players of HGs remember that HG can and -should- fumble around or forget a step now and again in their task.

They easy part in mimicking is saying the catchphrases of the players around you if that person has caught the interest of the HG.
The hard part is mimicking the attributes of the other players around you and then getting those watching your playing to accept that you are doing it a certain way because the character your HG idolizes does it that way. It is a tricky thing watching HG role play.

I would also suggest that while interacting with HG's try to take that into account, unless you RP with a certain HG constantly it is hard to judge if that player is playing correctly or if they may have just slipped and gotten out of character a minute which happens when trying to play such a simple mind.

[Aruven]

Maybe I am just being bitter, but this just seems like people being annoyed that HG's are so powerful, and that not everyone plays them like an imbecile.

Will a HG ever be known for developing a siege weapon? probably not.

Will a HG ever learn to read or write? Probably not.

Will a HG learn to pick up on sarcasm? Highly likely. Learn how to survive even if fumbling at times in the wilderness? Of course. Be able to have rational thoughts? Yes.

You either A.) Get used to the fact that HG's can have some degree of sensibility, or ; B.) Stop expecting to see them employed because they are too erratic and powerful, much like Muls but only retarded.

I have never seen a HG I deemed too smart to be a HG. I have seen the stupidest (open for debate) to some fairly intelligent (also open for debate) HG's in my playtime, and I liked all of them. That is the concept that roleplayer had, and if they stuck to it, I saw and see no issue.

[X-D]

Will a HG learn to pick up on sarcasm?

Never

Learn how to survive even if fumbling at times in the wilderness?

Sure

Be able to have rational thoughts?

They can from the start, but there is a limit to how far a rational can go...pretty much the line is like Water makes me wet....then it stands to reason water makes all things wet...NO, a HG ONLY knows it makes him wet. He would have to see that it makes somebody else wet and even then he would not be able to reason that it makes person 3 wet till he sees it, and after seeing it 100,000 times he STILL would not be able to reason that it would make person 100,001 wet.

And as to "Animals ambush" God, Spiders spin webs of single strands of silk, something none of you can do, I suppose that applies somehow to how smart you are?

Animals Ambush, No, animals jump out of trees or from behind trees, any 3 year old can wait behind a tree in hopes that SOMEBODY comes by.

The point to the deal is that it was a planned system to catch a certain person in a place the Person was not at  in a manner that required mental facilities that HG simply do not have.

[Shepard]

When I play a HG, I generally just follow everyone else. I had the same thoughts and goals as the people around me. Essentially you are a real plot mover.

I ended up becoming a bard, and joining a Noble House, and never even wanted or planned to do those things. People may have thought he was 'smart' who knows, but really he was just going with the flow. He was often at the right place at the right time. Though I'd let his path sway at the change of the wind. He was tricked on a number of occasions, leaking secrets to those he shouldn't have.

I don't like playing the entire I don't understand anyone, I prefer to play the thoughtless go getter HG. You need this, I can get that, and I'll just go and do it. You need wood, I may just bring in a tree. You need hide, I may just knock out the beast and bring in the body. Also I always went with my first thought. And, I would never quite understand punishment and reward, but went along with the flow.

[spicemustflow]

You're severely underestimate their intelligence. If you were right, any position other than being arena meat would be far above HGs.

edit: directed at X-D

[X-D]

No, I do not, you overestimate how worthwhile intelligence is to survival and over simplify what intelligence is when talking about a non-human creature.

A smart half-giant or any for that matter, can learn and retain, yes, but they are 100% incapable of creative thought, they are not capable of rational thought requiring the use of intangibles. They cannot multitask or easily hold more then one thing in mind at a time. They have no science they have no art and they have no culture and they cannot even begin to understand any of the concepts.

Shepard seems like they have a good way to play one, I don't have a problem with a HG understanding VERY simple cause and affect, and that style leaves a HG doing things to please others, something they like doing because it would be an early cause and affect learned. That people want things, you bring them and they are happy...you did good.

edit
Yes Riev, it really is me.
Let me also say, I've played 4 HGs, Only 1 of the 4 did even I consider well played, though, Staff did not, They considered my worst played one as the best. The main reason why I will not play another HG, The dumb talking Genius HG was better staff liked then the truly stupid mimick...go figure, the other reason is they are simply too much work.
Also, to anybody feeling defensive, I don't really think you should, I personally don't think it is possible for most people to play a HG well...long as your really trying you should be proud.

[roughneck]

In my mind a half-giant is too stupid to survive independently and the race only survives because they do whatever they're told/influenced to do.

[Medivh]

Only 1 of the 4 did even I consider well played, though, Staff did not, They considered my worst played one as the best. The main reason why I will not play another HG, The dumb talking Genius HG was better staff liked then the truly stupid mimick...

This may be a large factor in people not playing half-giants to X-D's standards.
They do not follow staff standards. (Apparently.)
People apping for half-giant may want or feel the need to appeal to the staff members. Thus, they play how the staff feels is the best way.
Others, who gained karma via other means, would likely play as the staff feels they should.
(Otherwise they would not have gained that karma.)

In an experiment, you could set X-D's standard as the goal for roleplay.
Have people rewarded for -not- playing as he sees fit.
Do so for years. (As long as the karma system has been around.)
Then see what percent of people follow X-D's standards for roleplay.

[Timetwister]

.

HG1 gets in a fight with another PC, HG 1 ways HG2 and with HG2 plans and orchistrates an ambush. And not just Lets chase bad dude down and crush him, But, You wait here, I'll go back here, then when bad dude comes for me, You wait and I will chase him to you.

HG understanding cause, affect, with the ability to imagine possible eventualities, all clearly against docs. If you were playing that HG, then yes, your one of the 99%

Thing is, this level of planning ability in PC HGs is NOT rare, it is the norm in which they are played.

I'm wondering if you're on staff or something because how could you know this is the complete truth? Is it not possible that somebody else (much more intelligent) was contacting each half-giant with the way and facilitating the ambush? I find it hard to believe that you know 100% that it was only the half-giants around at the time of this ambush.

[Titania]

no offense but why do we care what XD thinks? I think the same docs can be open to interpretation.

However, possibly due to the magick which birthed half-giants, they are infamously stupid and have very low wisdoms.

Possessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends.

Half- giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

I just don't see or agree with all these additional rules people are making up. If X-D (and others) are right then they might as well be taken off the choices as unfun and unplayable. By those standards the staff and mud itself are not up to snuff. Why would the city states even trust them to be guards. Why would templars strut around with the worthless things as their only guards. How does one run a stable?

I think people need to have some kind of enjoyment with a HG.

My apologies if there is some docs I am not looking at.

[boog]

A HG who spends a lot of time around smart people wouldm probably also appear smart though.

At least at first glance.

Yeah. Doesn't it mention somewhere in the docs that half-giants mimic those around them? That means diction, gestures, mannerisms...

[Kryos]

no offense but why do we care what XD thinks? I think the same docs can be open to interpretation.

However, possibly due to the magick which birthed half-giants, they are infamously stupid and have very low wisdoms.

Possessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends.

Half- giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

I just don't see or agree with all these additional rules people are making up. If X-D (and others) are right then they might as well be taken off the choices as unfun and unplayable. By those standards the staff and mud itself are not up to snuff. Why would the city states even trust them to be guards. Why would templars strut around with the worthless things as their only guards. How does one run a stable?

I think people need to have some kind of enjoyment with a HG.

My apologies if there is some docs I am not looking at.

First off:  Yes.

As a second point on HGs, I think I've done pretty well with them.  When I decide to take up that role, I receive a great deal of player kudos.  The one thing that makes me really pleased to play this game is when other players tell me I made them enjoy their game more.

I think the reason these kudos are offered, is because I very closely adhere to the lines Titania picked out of the docs. 

However, possibly due to the magick which birthed half-giants, they are infamously stupid and have very low wisdoms.

If someone tries to trick you as a HG, it works.  It can even work twice back to back if they are even slightly clever about it.  Euphamisms, metaphors, and other verbal play falls on literal ears.  Giants *are* capable of creative thought, but their thoughts are limited to the most obvious solutions and direct behaviors, and almost never regard possible consequences.  If someone gives you conflicting instructions, you get paralyzed mentally, or, chose the path you've seen others(friends) take.  Because of . . .

Possessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends.

Observe behaviors around you and start taking them in.  Speech, body language, habits.  Dogma is particularly effective on half giants, and he who pays the most attention to them wins.  In the end, they are going to migrate towards those they are most around, and consider these people friends, because of . . .

Half- giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

Favor the moment.  Its not about what they've done for you, its what they're doing now that concerns a HG.  Though repeated, predictable behavior has a stronger impact on a HG then erratic behavior or out of the blue requests.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

To put half-giant intellect into perspective, I suggest that those of you who can, sit down one day and have a conversation with a 9-10 year old child. Have an actual conversation, not just hi and bye, but a conversation. Discuss the weather. Discuss life. Ask opinion.

Yes, some children are smarter than others at that age, but barring mental retardation, when you stop and think about it, all of these children are quite capable of thinking intelligent, and even, at times, advanced thoughts. Most of them can even think to the point of survival. Zalanthas is a hostile world, but it is also far simpler in nearly every aspect, and as such, that 9 year old train of thought is likely to grasp more in relative terms than the same mind in our modern world.

Yes, their views are skewed, and yes, they are often wrong, but rational thought still comes from their lips, and often times, they are more observant in particular situations than adults are.

So talk to a child.

I'm telling you to do this, because I have.

It surprised me.

[X-D]

I'm wondering if you're on staff or something because how could you know this is the complete truth? Is it not possible that somebody else (much more intelligent) was contacting each half-giant with the way and facilitating the ambush? I find it hard to believe that you know 100% that it was only the half-giants around at the time of this ambush.

That would have been even worse, and if I did know it was happening I would have filed a complaint on the matter.

This may be a large factor in people not playing half-giants to X-D's standards.
They do not follow staff standards. (Apparently.)
People apping for half-giant may want or feel the need to appeal to the staff members. Thus, they play how the staff feels is the best way.
Others, who gained karma via other means, would likely play as the staff feels they should.
(Otherwise they would not have gained that karma.)

Let me say, I never said the staffers in this were right, they are no longer on staff happily. But one of the problems with asking staff about the play is that, as stated before, most the time staff sees something well out of context and only for a very short amount of time.

Also, Some of them (and in this case it was the case) Have never played a HG or sometimes even read the docs. They are only Human after all. I've never had a problem with a Highlord or above on my HGs though.

Also, Stop taking single lines from the docs, you do not get to pick and choose which parts of racial RP you like or are willing to follow, as with the race docs for all the races, if they are taken as anything less then the whole then they are worthless, this is a problem I see way too often with staff and players alike.

[Incognito]

The actual problem - and this is from first hand experience - with playing consistently stupid HGs - is that it takes immense concentration on the part of the player, to continuously keep thinking, talking and acting in a manner which is not reflective of the player's (our) age and intelligence.

Its very easy to play a super intelligent and crafty PC - like an elf - but the contrary is extremely difficult.

It does not come naturally to us, to tone down our natural intelligence for long periods, with ease - leave alone finesse!

I do agree with players experiencing unrealistically intelligent HG roleplay on arm - and not appreciating it.
On the other hand, swapping HGs with Muls - that I don't agree on.

I agree with the Staff's overall approach about giving a wider berth and going easy with HG roleplay.

And though HG personas might not be played correctly by some/most players - the Race doesn't have as many bonuses/advantages as Mul, to warrant an increase in Karma requirement.

I vote status-quo.


Edited to add: X-D is a different breed altogether - I'm not even sure he's pure human...maybe a cyborg with a built-in ArmageddonMUD chipset....so he doesn't get a say on this issue...