Did half-giants get smarter suddenly?

[Ami]

Its very easy to play a super intelligent and crafty PC - like an elf - but the contrary is extremely difficult.

It does not come naturally to us, to tone down our natural intelligence for long periods, with ease - leave alone finesse!



Edited to add: X-D is a different breed altogether - I'm not even sure he's pure human...maybe a cyborg with a built-in ArmageddonMUD chipset....so he doesn't get a say on this issue...

I actually find it harder to play intelligent and crafty. xD

[Thunkkin]

Also, Stop taking single lines from the docs, you do not get to pick and choose which parts of racial RP you like or are willing to follow, as with the race docs for all the races, if they are taken as anything less then the whole then they are worthless, this is a problem I see way too often with staff and players alike.

Awesome. I'm glad we're bringing in the entirety of the docs. Can you provide links to the docs that support what you've been saying here?

HG understanding cause, affect, with the ability to imagine possible eventualities, all clearly against docs.

I don't think there'd be much argument about HGs having difficulty imagining possible eventualities, but it would surely help everyone out here if you could point to the doc that says HGs can't understand cause and effect.

the HG has ZERO imagination he would be able to perform that ambush and only that ambush, coming up with the idea that it would apply to other areas using other people against other people simply would not be something a HG is capable of.

A doc that clearly stats that Hgs have "ZERO" imagination would really clear things up here. Let's get that link!

pretty much the line is like Water makes me wet....then it stands to reason water makes all things wet...NO, a HG ONLY knows it makes him wet. He would have to see that it makes somebody else wet and even then he would not be able to reason that it makes person 3 wet till he sees it, and after seeing it 100,000 times he STILL would not be able to reason that it would make person 100,001 wet.

Are there any examples in the docs that would support this level of mental retardation? This isn't just stupid. This is non-functional mental capacity.

they are 100% incapable of creative thought,

That's a pretty strong statement! Is there anything in the docs that would cearly, unambiguously support this?

You later say that you don't have a problem with HGs understanding simple cause and effect. This seems rather contradictory to what you've stated above. You've played this game much longer than me and you've surely read the docs more than I have.  To my eyes, it seems that you are extrapolating from the docs to create iron-clad rules that are actually open to more interpretation than you seem willing to allow. I'd be delighted to be shown where the docs clearly say all this because it would certainly help me out the next time I attempt to play an HG.

[Aruven]

You can't argue when someone set on their ideas reads the documentation and interprets them a certain way. You think Half-Giants should have down-syndrome, then send in a submit a request! Thats the beauty of having it now. I honestly think Half-giants are fine the way they are. It is obvious if the HG is way too smart to be a half-giant. You know walking around with a Noble or Templar talking about mass control of a population and laying out groundwork for a sewer system or aquaduct. I think people have just had some bad experiences and want to vent, in my opinion.

[Marshmellow]

I think people don't see enough of half-giants to get an accurate picture of the quality of their roleplay.

I think X-D is overreacting and has restricted, in his mind, half-giant roleplay to a ridiculous level.  I say this especially because I seem to remember something in the docs or said by staff a while back, an example story about a half-giant trying to adapt something he'd learned to a new situation with comical affect because he didn't really understand the new situation.  They're not completely retarded, just damn dumb.  They are adaptive mimics, just dumb and childlike.  They are not semi-functioning retards.

[Sam]

This thread depresses me. I see a lot of people stating, "They are too dumb to understand this, and this, and this."

Speaking with a kid that can barely speak. They already know that water gets them wet, and that water makes all things wet. Does it really? No not really.
I also see a general agreement. You can't itneract with a HG for all of three minutes and know if they are played well. Intelligence is just on side of the coin for RPing a HG. What about their social mimicry? How hard is it to convince them? If you give them direction, will they follow it to the letter? Or just achieve the end goal?

To judge a PC on one thing you cannot measure without enough time spent around them is an injustice and ignorant. I have been insulted via private message because my HG wasn't behaving "correctly." Here is the situation they saw:
My HG and a fellow HG ambush a character. PC comes on the scene, sees a hulking HG and flees directly into an area with HG2. The PC KNOWS that these HGs set up an elaborate ambush.

Here is what really happened:
My HG doesn't want to ambush the guy at all, so they sit off to the side. My HG knows that it is a dangerous PC and there is no reason for them to try and kill someone dangerous. HG1 sits and waits for the PC. PC shows up and runs away. My HG sees PC running towards them and is startled. In defense, my HG defends themself until HG1 comes back over.

In playing a HG and playing around them, I have seen people blatently tell them something completely in opposite of what they have been doing all along and when the HG doesn't do it, that PC obviously ignores that HG for the rest of the time. You can't convince someone with just a few witty sentences. Just like you can't convince a kid to go home with a stranger after they have been taught about stranger danger.

If I were to point out one thing that would improve the HGs roleplay, I'd say to have more dynamic PCs around it. When the halfgiant doesn't have anything to mimic, fail at, or otherwise learn from their fellow PCs, they cannot RP correctly.
Bottom line: Don't judge until you are fully aware and have measured all facets of a personality.

[valeria]

I tend to give players of HGs the benefit of the doubt.  Unless you're playing a psion, you can't know what that character is thinking.  Unless you can read minds in real life, you can't know what the player is thinking.  Almost all of the half-giant's I've played with consistently enough to get an idea of how the PC was working have been great.

As for staying in the stupid mindset, I played a consistently stupid PC once.  She wasn't a half-giant, but she was a blast.  Though I guess maybe she would have been trouble if she'd been very long-lived.  My advice for anyone trying to play stupid is to remember that 'stupid' is not a whole personality set.  Are you stupid and good-natured?  Stupid and mean-tempered?  Stupid and selfish?  What variety of stupid are you - unimaginative, overly trusting, easy to trick, unable to pick up on subtle meanings, liable to forget instructions, someone with a complete lack of ability to plan ahead, insanely overly compulsive?  Accepting, xenophobic, or just don't care?  Do you remember all those things your mom told you not to do, or do you need to be constantly reminded?  Unfriendly or chatty?  What kind of sense of humor do you have?

I've done some work with handicapped kids, though, so I've seen that even a kid with Downs Syndrome can be as cunning as any other kid (a kid a couple years younger probably), especially if they're spending a lot of time with people who are cunning... the thing is that they're just as likely to try a trick in the wrong context as in the right one, or repeat a joke they've heard with some critical point missing that turns it into a headscratcher.  And they definitely have distinct personalities and distinct manifestations of how their mind works.

A lot of times, I'll spend a good amount of time when I'm planning a new PC just imagining how they would react to certain situations.  With the stupid one, I would formulate a stream of logic, and then leave out or alter a step.  I would think how statements could be misinterpreted if read literally, or where the 'common sense' would be left into a string of instructions--and then take it out.

Just my two cents.   

[X-D]

Val, Sam...Um...that is all well and good but, How should I put this...Oh, Yes, We are not talking about humans, We are not talking about children. We are talking about a game creature created by magick that may or may not even be related to humans. In fact, the docs state more then once that a HG is not to be portrayed as a child. Apples and Battleships. You would do better to compare them to puppies.

As to me quoting the docs, you assume I care enough. I don't really, but I will anyway.

As to the ambush, yours sounds like a different event somewhat more recent. Interesting though that you assume PC resources to be limited to one facet though.


Mallow and Aru might very well be correct, of course I'm actually thinking if nothing else some of you might have gone back and read the HG docs again...not a bad thing in my mind.

As to Thunk, The docs clearly state most of what I said, only one item is inferred, Lack of imagination, but since Imagination requires something the docs state clearly HG do not have...

Subtlety requires two things: flexibility of thought, and multilevel thought. Since half-giants are absolutely lacking in both of these, they are some of the least subtle creatures in the known world. A half-giant will tend to say what's on their mind, and be absolutely incapable of manipulation, deceit, or any other kind subtle undertakings.

Manipulation and Deceit, both required for said ambush, clearly stated HG is ABSOLUTELY INCAPABLE of.

Half-giants are also practically incapable of thinking in the abstract. Nebulous concepts such as justice, love and honor are hard to truly grasp even for many of us - for a half-giant it may as well be impossible! A half-giant will have difficulty understanding anything that they couldn't physically wrap their hands around. This makes half-giants easier to control as slaves and other laborers, and because of this are often found among the ranks of soldiers. The half-giant mind makes them prone to cheerful adoption of others customs. Perhaps due to their inability to see beyond their present situation, a half-giant is rarely an unhappy individual.

They are very easily tricked. They cannot think flexibly or with subtlety, they cannot grasp abstract concepts, and they are highly suggestible and trusting. All together, these things make half-giants very easy to manipulate. A half-giant does not attach any value to an item other than that which it seems to have at the moment, and the same goes for a friend.

Imagination is the use of the abstract portion of the mind, Something a HG simply does not have.
I find it amusing that people have a hard time with this, since it is the one thing that truly sets humans on earth apart from all other living things. Something that, so far as science can determine, only we have.

[jhunter]

A half-giant might be incapable of ambushing someone as in, coming up with the idea on their own but they are perfectly capable of executing :

"Maxamos, stand over here behind this huge ass rock...a lone rider will come by soon and when he does...jump out from behind this big fucker and smash his fucking head in. Got it?"

"Okay boss."

[X-D]

Hey, I already said that was fine...sheesh. Thats what HG gate guards in nak are after all.

[jhunter]

Didn't read the whole thread, I was agreeing with your points.

[X-D]

Oh, my bag.

[Sam]

Well, when people are throwing up numbers like 99% horribly roleplayed, it makes one think they don't really care to delve into each halfgiant they encounter. One may look for a sign of "The bad roleplayed" and consider the case settled and time saved.

I'd say most halfgiants are well played, but people expect a lot more emoting/actions/character development than the vast majority of other races. Personally, I really dislike HGs that are comic relief. That isn't to say comic relief is "bad roleplay," but it grates on my nerves.

Question:
What are some of the common errors made by half giants through history? Besides intelligence, what "actions" have they done that you would consider bad roleplay of a HG?

One that always gets me is going from dumb, off the wall comments, to snarky comments and back again all within a few sentences.

[Marauder Moe]

It takes a fair amount of time to tell the difference between a poorly-played half-giant that's acting too smart and a well-played one who's spent a lot of time around another character who acts smart.

Personally, I've seen more half-giants that are played too stupidly ("ME SMASH BAD MAN!") than too smart.

[X-D]

I give all HGs the benefit of the doubt, It is the rare HG that I will sit there and go, Man, this guy is horrible, on a first meeting. It usually takes several before I'm going, Gah, and wanting to OOC that they should read the docs a few more times and make an attempt to play to them.

Common mistakes, well, the one that gets me most is the HG that never makes mistakes. Never gets distracted. I don't expect a HG to make a mistake talking, they should actually do that well. But lets give another example that really happened.

My PC runs across a HG, the HG never sees him but does catch his tracks. My PC has no interest in this HG so continues on after watching him.

I sneak past a few critters and stop, 20 something rooms away and not in a straight line. Several minutes later, see HG coming, I hide and wait, HG kills one of the critters, checks tracks, keeps coming. So I begin checking to see if HG is indeed tracking my PC, loop around, find more critters and other PCs. HG keeps coming, and when he lost the tracks he started to circle out till he found them again. Over the course of two hours this HG never made a mistake, never got distracted, it was the giant version of a arm tracking mob. I'd hide in a room, HG came in, hunted, found no track leading out and though he could not see my PC, he started talking anyway, hunting every so often, when I left he came on again. So I went a direction he simply could not go. 15 minutes later I see him coming again, after he went the 30 rooms around the obstacle.

Sure, that is an extreme example, but you get the point, I left the player hundreds of openings to make a mistake and act like a HG, they did not.

Let your HG make mistakes, it is more fun in the long run...I had a HG militia and a templar told him a brown haired human with scars was a criminal, find him and bring him to jail.....you have no idea how many brown haired PCs and NPCs made it to jail that day.

[Fnord]

I want to click "like" on 7DV's post. Half-giants, to me, are a lot like young children in huge bodies.

* Children speak simply and need to be spoken to simply if comprehension is the desired outcome
* Children imitate those that they look up to in word and deed
* Children feel really strongly about what they THINK they know to be true
* Children are easily influenced for better or worse by those they admire
* Children can be very kind or cruel depending on how they're raised, because their moral compass is unformed
* Children can have a vivid imagination
* Children are capable of extraordinary displays of intelligence about specific things IF they have a good teacher or leader on a consistent basis
* Children are highly adaptable and can have different behavior patterns for different people in their lives
* Children frequently test their limits
* Children make a lot of mistakes

I could go on, but yeah, look to the children on how to RP a half-giant.

[Shepard]

How would a HG's intelligence blossom?

Do they reach a peak at their races equiviliant to a nine year old human (or whatever inteligence they are supposed to have)? Or do their mental abilities progress with age, I am talking from baby to adult.

Also, could there not be that RARE intelligent HG, which would steal not touch a human's abilities, but would dwarf other HG's intelligence?

[Lizzie]

How would a HG's intelligence blossom?

Do they reach a peak at their races equiviliant to a nine year old human (or whatever inteligence they are supposed to have)? Or do their mental abilities progress with age, I am talking from baby to adult.

Also, could there not be that RARE intelligent HG, which would steal not touch a human's abilities, but would dwarf other HG's intelligence?

No, there could not be that rare intelligent HG. Half-giants are mysterious mutated creatures forged from races of humanoids that were never intended to breed. Their brains do not contain the necessary cell function to be "intelligent." That they are even sentient is considered miraculous.

They ARE capable of speaking in complete sentences, because they make good mimics - not unlike a parrot. They also manage to figure out how to eat, drink, and groom themselves - again, not unlike a parrot. They manage to figure out how to move from point A to point B, like a parrot. Half-giants are stupid creatures. They are humanoid, but they are not humans. At full capacity, after managing to live to a ripe old age in captivity and pampered and somehow not dying (which might also be due to being just too stupid to die), they will hopefully be marginally more intelligent than a parrot.

[Salt Merchant]

Parrots are actually highly intelligent birds with (depending on the species) a complex social life.

EDIT: For those who think parrots are only mimics, educate yourself about Alex (an African Grey) here: Alex

[X-D]

The problem is Fnord, the docs directly contradict you, 7DV and anybody else comparing them to children.

Are All Half-Giants Stupid?

Yes. The wisest of half-giants is probably no more clever than a rather dim-witted human. But it is important to understand what is meant by stupidity. Many people attribute stupidity falsely - for example, to primitive peoples or to children. Stupidity doesn't really describe either of these cases; ignorance or naivety are perhaps better words. So a half-giant is not like a child or a primitive humanoid, but rather, simply a very stupid person, although this is a much more subtle concept.

And farther on

Similarly, speaking like a child is not the most appropriate way to portray a half-giant. Very young children often speak poorly because they have not grasped the proper situations to use words in. As mentioned above, half-giants are very attentive to such things. It will take them longer to figure it out than it would a human, but an adult half-giant understands most grammatical rules - especially the simple ones

Lizzie states a very good example, mostly because she is able to stay away from anything even remotely human when trying to explain HG.

They might be part human in how they are made, but some parts of the brain that make Humans simply do not exist in the HG brain, and so some things are totally impossible for one, no matter how smart or how well taught.

Base line being, they are NOT human.

Edit, Salt merchant, sub in Dog, Stingray, crow, or any other animal that is not human, capable of mimicry and some learning. Sheesh. Or maybe put the parrot comment in random thoughts?

[Drayab]

Yes, I agree with X-D.

Children act they way they do primarily because of their inexperience. Children lack knowledge because they haven't had a chance to learn it yet. However, language is a good example of how the child brain is different from the adult brain. Famously, children pick up language much quicker than adults. That doesn't make them smarter; it makes them different. Half giants do not have child like brains, and neither are they retarded adults. I think it is more instructive to think of them as a kind of unique, ultra intelligent animal, but we have to be careful about what we mean by intelligence in this context. A bird makes a nest and a spider weaves a web, but that doesn't make them intelligent. Half giants can learn how to make a master work dagger, but only after they have studied the design and probably watched a master crafter at work. They don't learn like humans do, and this is why they are so difficult to play.

Documentation states they excel at mimicry and empathy, but they lack a culture of their own. I think it is a reasonable deduction from this that they are uncreative and lack an ability to generalize knowledge. They are good at rote learning, but they will never innovate. However, they display good 'emotional intelligence' so they may be perceptive of body language and tone of voice.

[Synthesis]

Either we've got a bunch of linguist-philosophers in this community, or this thread is full of crap.

[Ami]

I plan to play HGs in the future and I'm not sure if this thread is helpful or alarming to me.

[Qzzrbl]

The GDB hate cycle skipped a few steps this year, didn't it?

[Case]

So basically X-D got ganked by some HGs once thus making the answer to "did half-giants get smarter suddenly" 'no'.

[Fnord]

From their giant kin, half-giants have inherited incredible size and strength, and their endurance is matched only by muls and sturdy dwarves. However, possibly due to the magick which birthed half-giants, they are infamously stupid and have very low wisdoms. In addition, because of their great size, half-giants are typically slow to move and have low agilities. Half-giants, because of their great size, cannot usually wear clothing or armor designed for smaller demihumans.

Roleplaying: Half-giants have no culture to speak of. Possessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends. This trait can be either a benefit or a serious detriment to those friends (or neighbors), depending on the circumstances. Half- giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

Half-giants (as the other races) have the same stats, and they can be low or high relative to their race. Half-giants can learn complex skills, memorize them, and repeat them without necessarily having anyone to mimic nearby. Half-giants can potentially do magick. It says half-giants rapidly adopt other's behaviors, not that they can only learn or act based on mimicing those around them, not that the proclivity to do so is because they're a sentient animal. After all, at which point would you then RP any non-human race as alien? There are definitely some gray areas. Do dwarves have a focus because their brain is different or is that a racial tendency? Are halflings animals/aliens because they cannibalize or is it a racial/cultural tendency? To me, the only truly "alien" race is a mantis, but that's another discussion.

I'm not arguing for half-giants to be RP'd as highly intelligent. I've seen my share of half-giant cheese that made no sense. What I am suggesting is there is no one right answer. If you want to RP your half-giant as an alien lifeform that has a different brain due to their magickal origins, more power to you. If you want to RP your half-giant like a sentient animal or a child locked at age six, more power to you. Just don't play your half-giant as an excuse to have a really big tough human. They're only half human at best.