Death Experiences - Lack of ANY Roleplay?

[AreteX]

Meh, the title sums it up, and the response I got sobered me a bit I guess.

So I'm just editing the post, nothing good can come of it.

[lordcooper]

Roll up another

In all honesty though I can say that out of three dead characters, one died in a similar way.
It may be worth filing a player complaint, it may not.  Just don't let one twink stop you from playing.

I do think that this lack of rp may well be because they don't trust other players to allow themselves to remain in these kinds of situations.  The fear works both ways.
Besides, if I was gonna backstab someone IRL, I damn well wouldn't emote beforehand.

EDIT:  ANd they may have been emoting like mad until you entered the room, or even hemoting with you in there.  If you feel hard done by, file a complaint.  Staff can see all the facts, we can only flame...

[AreteX]

See Above.

[AreteX]

[quote author=lordcooper link=topic=39874.msg561165#msg561165 date=1287395144
EDIT:  ANd they may have been emoting like mad until you entered the room, or even hemoting with you in there.  If you feel hard done by, file a complaint.  Staff can see all the facts, we can only flame...
[/quote]

I saw the person enter the room.

As long as the delay is for backstab, was the time between entering and backstabbing.

Then I died a few attacks later.

It was about 6seconds in total, and lame as all hell.


I'm not sure reporting a player is the way to go about it, but if its justified then maybe I should?  I'm not the best player myself anyways, but I would never kill someone like that, UNLESS we had a relationship, in which threats ect were made.... but just a random person?

[Gunnerblaster]

Be disappointed only when your long-lived PC is wtf-pwned by NPC guards who have no conscious.

Otherwise, try to enjoy everything to the best of your ability.

[Spoon]

This sounds like Rinthitis. I don't know if the OP is a new or old player, but if you're new, avoid making a PC in the Labyrinth for precisely this reason.

Sure, I think deaths like this are unfair, and I don't know what possesses players to kill peoples PCs like this, but there's little you can do aside from make a player complaint (which I think would be worthwhile in this situation).

[Cowboy]

I think coming to terms with these type of deaths is a sign of "game maturity." I've had it happen a several times. I haved also got
really good characters killed off by my own foolishness.  The best response is draw up new character and keep having fun.  I'd report it.
It can't hurt, the other player might be a twink and needs some staff assistance.

[Timetwister]

It's completely legitimate to die with no roleplay. Some people are murderers, rapists, and all-around dark. Some people you do NOT want to run into in a dark alley. Even if you weren't in the 'rinth people will do this. I don't totally agree with it but when your food source comes from raiding or killing I guess you have to take all the advantages you can get. There could also have been circumstances unknown to you. Maybe the guy was being tested for a position as an assassin or something and his boss told him to kill you as a test and to do it without being seen and/or heard etc. So like others have said make a new character and keep truckin' forward. Join a clan.

[Wolfsong]

Wrong. It is completely illegitimate to be PKed without roleplay. If you kill someone without roleplay, expect to be reprimanded. Now, being killed without a "scene" or emoting is entirely different; while this is legitimate, it is also unfortunate. PKing without emoting is a sign of mistrust of fellow players... but given what the majority of the pbase would do in similar situations, can you blame people for shooting first and asking questions later?

[AreteX]

Well, the reason it upsets me so greatly is because if the person has emoted.

"Amos walks up and places a dagger to your back, "Don't move, else I stab you."

I would sit there, not moving, and ask "What do you want?"

They could of robbed me blind, taken everything, left me naked for all I care.


Or... they could of said, "Don't move, because if you do, you won't live these precious seconds I'm giving you."

And you know what?  I would of SAT THERE still.  I would of roleplayed out getting stabbed in the back and dying, and I wouldnt of been on the boards complaining at all.  But, seeing someone Enter, not even having a chance to look, or REACT at all to the person, and being stabbed in the back for 70hp is not fun.  Its a character who has TRAINED backstab to a high-level to do that much damage.  They have a good dagger, good equipment ect.  This is a person playing the game for a while, or twinking himself.

Nobody reacts to someone entering the room with a proper emote in the 2second time period it takes to backstab, I just barely registered someone walked into the room.  This is just bad in my opinion.

Shrug, I've rolled another character and I'll keep rolling them, but honestly, this really pissed me off.  Maybe because its the first time something like this has happened to me, and I've died plenty, and been killed a few times by other players.

And if it was an assassin trying to get some fancy club membership, then I hope the RP that spawned from my gruesome death really is awesome, but I doubt thats the case.

EDIT:  I had never seen this character before, and have had no interaction with them.  This wasn't a revenge act, or anything like that justified with previous roleplay, this was just a PKILL.

[Lizzie]

If you feel it was just a PK, then by all means send a complaint. That's the ONLY thing that will get the staff to look into the matter and determine whether or not it was a PK, and to take measures to discipline the PKer, if appropriate.

The only thing that posting about it does here, is a) tell everyone who might have guessed who you play, or knows who you play, that your character is dead. and b) informs whoever killed your character, that you think they suck.

Neither is productive.

[Nahara]

I don't know if NPCs often backstab, but there are times at which the difference between an aggressive (demi)human NPC and an overly quiet aggressive player can blur. Would easily explain a lack of delays in commands. Generally speaking if it's the choice between getting killed by an overly quiet player or a cool NPC, I'll be happier concluding it was a cool NPC. True or not...  it's reassuring to think that way.

[Nana]

Wish there was a filter for board posts like this somehow.

You should just file a player complaint -- after all, you have a player complaint. (EDIT: You won't get shit for it, of course.) That's what the tool is for, so use it. You got nothing to lose, and the Imms won't punish you if they disagree -- they'll just let it go.

EDIT: Yeah, I actually agree with people downstream of me -- this is arma, and that's the rinth for you.. get used to it.

[brytta.leofa]

Do two things. Do them both.

(1) Don't play like the guy who PKed you. Be the change.
(2) Learn to beat people like the guy who PKed you. Play Armageddon like the population contains a substantial number of homicidal muggers, 'cause, well, it does.

A lot of the wannabe PKers are pretty easy to elude if you're calm and quick.

[a strange shadow]

Do two things. Do them both.

(1) Don't play like the guy who PKed you. Be the change.
(2) Learn to beat people like the guy who PKed you. Play Armageddon like the population contains a substantial number of homicidal muggers, 'cause, well, it does.

A lot of the wannabe PKers are pretty easy to elude if you're calm and quick.

Quoted for truth. Though staying calm in life or death combat is definitely a learned skill (and I still get the shakes sometimes).

[Reiteration]

This always conflicts me when I get PK'ed. I like everyone here but I hate them because they kill my peoples. And I don't know which one of you is the one thats being mean so I can't trust anyone. ;-;

[Sajoi]

This always conflicts me when I get PK'ed. I like everyone here but I hate them because they kill my peoples. And I don't know which one of you is the one thats being mean so I can't trust anyone. ;-;

Aww! You can trust me! *hides the perain tainted dagger behind his back* To emote before killing you!

[lepxii]

  The flip side to this, is that the killer emotes, and the victim runs like a tregil.

 If you actually want to -kill- the PC in question (for whatever reason - including motivations note related to said PC being a specific PC) - then not utilizing the code vastly reduces your chances of success (and in some cases - vastly increase the chances of your own demise). The whole point of a backstab is that it comes by surprise (and many other attacks are also more effective when the victim is surprise).

 Armageddon is brutal and harsh. Get over it.

 Now if the killler PKs for no RPable reason - that's a different matter, but you as the victim have little or no idea of whether that is the case. A plausible reason for a killer could be that he is playing a psychopath or that he liked your hat. However you should bear in mind that PCs who PK alot, tend not to last long (unless the player is *incredible*) - they end up targeting someone/something that is stronger then them (e.g. an ultra-sekreet magicker cum god-king).

[Marauder Moe]

It's completely legitimate play to not give your assassination victim warning before you strike.

[Reiteration]

I'm pretty sure I understand the player's situation, as I was recently killed randomly on my previous character and though I can't reveal details, I agree that there have been killings with essentially zero emotes, the time it would take them to type out a hemote and then backstab wouldn't fit into the timeframe it took them to enter the room and backstab me back then unless they copied the emote before hand.

This can probably be linked to the new players flying in from the voting blitz that choose to spawn and play guilds like Assassins or PickPockets down in the labyrinth and treat it like any hack and slash bloodbath.

Edit:
While I agree with Moe that you don't really need to give warning. I treat it as a common courtesy to let them know they're going to die.

[Jingo]

Armageddon is brutal and harsh. Get over it.

No, Armageddon still isn't Diablo.

While it is permissible to attack players without emotes, it's still bad-form from my point of view. And I hope most of the playerbase feels the same way.

If each and every player would backstab-without-emoting everytime they could, this game wouldn't be worth playing.

It's also why I'll never play make a new character in the labyrinth again.

[Sokotra]

Yeah, almost sounds like it was an NPC... but maybe not.  If it isn't, I would agree that it is pretty poor RP, especially when you know you can kill in a few hits.  Especially high damage in a first backstab attack.  I attack quickly on many circumstances because that is what a surprise attack is, but then emote during and after... and that is when I'm not doing much damage or just trying to knock someone out and let them live (mercy on).  I would never purposely just attack and kill in a few hits unless I was an assassin that was paid to do exactly that.  Even then, I would say there are other alternatives.  

Again, I'm wondering if you didn't wander into the wrong place with a "valuable" piece of equipment where the NPCs will jump you immediately for it.  NPCs that would not have attacked you the last time you walked through their turf.  If you found something new or you went shopping and had a new piece of equipment on before this happened, then you might give that some thought.

[X-D]

I really want to kick many posting here in the head.

[misogynistic post edited by Nyr.  Use your big kid words, please.]

[Cutthroat]

Do two things. Do them both.

(1) Don't play like the guy who PKed you. Be the change.
(2) Learn to beat people like the guy who PKed you. Play Armageddon like the population contains a substantial number of homicidal muggers, 'cause, well, it does.

A lot of the wannabe PKers are pretty easy to elude if you're calm and quick.

Quoted not only for truth and correctness, but because perfectly rational thoughts like these tend to drown in threads like these.

[Reiteration]

I really want to kick many posting here in the head.

[misogynistic post edited by Nyr.  Use your big kid words, please.]

[Sokotra]

I would have to agree, because I play for the action.  I mostly just play combatants and it happens to me and I've probably done it to others in the past.  I'm just saying "try" to find an alternative if you can.  If nothing else, just leave your mercy on and RP like your character thought the person was dead.  There's no reason you can't do that... or something.. anything other than insta-kill.  That's lame.  But yeah, it happens.

[X-D]

For the record, I like mercy on, sadly mercy is rather weak.

For instance, with backstab, if the backstab might actually kill the target, mercy will stop even the attempt, It also does not work for magick, archery, throw.

Oh, and No, I'm not mad.

[brytta.leofa]

It's not bad roleplay to kill someone quick if you need to.  Especially if they're suspected to be dangerous.

It's great roleplay to add as much color to your character's actions as you can.

It's bad roleplay, IMO, to bump another person's character out of the story on a flimsy excuse.  Bad roleplay...but, within reason, allowed, and not really fodder for a Player Complaint.

[Malifaxis]

I really want to kick many posting here in the head.

[misogynistic post edited by Nyr.  Use your big kid words, please.]

*STAMP OF FUCKING APPROVAL*

[spicemustflow]

I really want to kick many posting here in the head.

[misogynistic post edited by Nyr.  Use your big kid words, please.]

I agree with this.

*provided the killing is justified.

[jhunter]

I really want to kick many posting here in the head.

[misogynistic post edited by Nyr.  Use your big kid words, please.]

I agree with this.

*provided the killing is justified.

I agree as well, with the exception of the "provided the killing is justified" disclaimer. In real life people die or are killed unjustly so there's nothing unrealistic or "poor rp" about that. In fact, if the killing was justified, it likely adds less to a dramatic story than it would if they were killed unjustly. I would say that a justified death probably spawns off less plotlines due to the character's demise, etc. It's not that harsh if the only people who are killed were the ones who actually deserved it.
Just because you were only a party to the final result of a string of rp and weren't party to the rp leading up to that point, it doesn't mean that there was no rp involved. Personally, this situation sound to me like one of the 'rinthi npcs that you may have mistaken for a pc. *shrug*

[hyzhenhok]

From the first helpfile you should read:

It is likely that your character will die, and if you are not clever your character will die very fast.

Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of.

Complaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't.

[Jingo]

Guess I'll just grind skills as fast as a I can and retire pcs with low stats. 'Cause I know someone's gonna just walk in and gank me first chance they get.

Really glad the pros of armageddon cleared that up for me.

[jhunter]

Guess I'll just grind skills as fast as a I can and retire pcs with low stats. 'Cause I know someone's gonna just walk in and gank me first chance they get.

Really glad the pros of armageddon cleared that up for me.

Yeah, that's what people were saying. 

[Nahara]

From the first helpfile you should read:

It is likely that your character will die, and if you are not clever your character will die very fast.

Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of.

Complaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't.

The implications of that sentence are ominous. I would like to encourage everyone, please live with it rather than the alternative.

[Jingo]

Guess I'll just grind skills as fast as a I can and retire pcs with low stats. 'Cause I know someone's gonna just walk in and gank me first chance they get.

Really glad the pros of armageddon cleared that up for me.

Yeah, that's what people were saying.  

[/sarc] for sure becuase I think it's mostly just gdb grandstanding

But if I thought it was for real, then it's my only recourse.

[a strange shadow]

Once upon a time, a character of mine wanted to kill someone who was much more badass than they were, for reasons personal and professional.

She recruited the help of one other PC to help trick the mark into trusting my character.

She then had a nice little chat, one on one with that character (no NPCs, no nothing; I wanted to give him a fair shake, should he potentially overcome my character's treachery), and then used a perfectly mundane, non skill-based trick to gain the upper hand. The actual death was extremely quick and tidy, but there was plenty of roleplaying beforehand. To this day it remains one of my favorite PKs (even if I hated having to kill that character).

I like to think that player had a 'oh geez, so THAT'S why' moment, when their character saw the mantis head.

The point of this story? We don't have to resort to emote-less instant-kills just because someone is more powerful or exceptionally dangerous. Yes, deception is only one tool in the PK toolbox, and sometimes insufficient or impractical for the situation. No, I don't have any problem with someone who resorts to a swift use of code if the necessity is there. But for my part, I like to do my best to give the character's player a hint as to the answer to the question 'why', when their character's story comes to an end. I feel like it helps soothe the bitter taste of loss.

[jhunter]

On the other side, I've had pcs die where I had no idea or wasn't sure what the reasoning was behind it. Then with a following pc, overheard conversations and such pertaining to my previous pc and got to go: "Ahhh...I didn't know that. Neat." Some of them, I still wonder about to this day, my imagination running wild on tangents regarding that pc's death. To each their own, but I've personally got no problem with not knowing the "why" about things that my pc may not know about while I'm still playing them. Other than the loss of my first long lived character, (where I believe it was just my attitude and getting the hang of this game) the only thing that can make be bitter about the loss of a pc is if I were to find out the other person used OOC information that lead to the death of my pc. Which, I found out in one case it had happened and it involved a staffer who is no longer with us.

[Zoltan]

For the record, I like mercy on, sadly mercy is rather weak.

For instance, with backstab, if the backstab might actually kill the target, mercy will stop even the attempt, It also does not work for magick, archery, throw.

Oh, and No, I'm not mad.

I'm 95% sure it works for magick. At least on a few mobs I killed in the past.

As to the main thrust of the thread, meh. I haven't PKed enough to have an opinion, and I've only been insta-killed by a PC once. I deserved it, and I would have done pretty much the same thing in their shoes.

If something's really got your goat, file a player complaint instead of a GDB rant. Wait a week or two and see if it's still worth having a discussion about it.

[wizturbo]

Is killing another PC without any emoting or roleplay beforehand wrong?  No.  It's acceptable.  

Does this mean it should be considered "good" roleplay?  No.  It's not good roleplay by my standards.

[brytta.leofa]

Guess I'll just grind skills as fast as a I can and retire pcs with low stats. 'Cause I know someone's gonna just walk in and gank me first chance they get.

...
But if I thought it was for real, then it's my only recourse.

Absolutely untrue.  Avoid danger you can't handle, whether in the city or wilderness.

The flip side of what you're saying, if you think about it, is that you think you'll derive a coded advantage from people emoting, one that will enable you to escape more often or with less-skilled characters.  Ain't it?  Because we're not talking per se about poorly justified PKs; we're talking about minimally roleplayed ones.

[Riev]

Don't forget that it could very well be Rinthitis as well. At one point, I almost shit out an entire agafari log from my pants because I was just sitting in a well known bar, and I got backstabbed and killed, and had no idea what happened. I was under the impression it was a PC. I was wrong.


As far as killing with no emotes, you unfortunately can not take the risk to "hemote sneaks up on ~mark" and "tell mark (holding a dagger to his throat) Don't move." because while the OP might have stayed there, a good number of people know that, codedly, they can just flee self and run away. And even IF the mugger sent in a player complaint about it, it would take a week for staff to get the situation resolved, and all that happens is the player gets bad account notes, it doesn't mean they won't do it again.

On the whole, I agree with everything X-D said. While I'd love a world where ASS's situation works all the time, quite frankly some people are just not that willing to let their character die. If I want to kill someone, and I don't want the ENTIRE playerbase to know it was me, I'm going to kill them quick because if I fail, the Mantis Queen is going to know I tried to off some grebber in the Grasslands.

[X-D]

Wiz, one of my points and that of a few others is.

You cannot know what roleplay went on before the act, and the act itself is (usually) Roleplay as well, often the culmination of a bunch of roleplay.

I myself usually put a lot of time into a kill attempt. But unless it is a torture scene, 99% of the time the intent of my PC is to kill  the other as quickly as possible. If I have done my job right that will be 1 prompt, no warning. In other words, as realistic as possible.

Assume the best when your PC gets PK'd and be happy it was not random npc #553, because you know there was no roleplay there.

Oh, and far as mercy and magick is concerned, Heh, toss mon un fireball at a gimpka rat with mercy on and see what happens.

[Salt Merchant]

"Amos walks up and places a dagger to your back, "Don't move, else I stab you."

This is a prime example of a power emote. Amos has decided for you that he could successfully sneak up on you and put a dagger to your back before you notice or react defensively.

I'd rather see a coded way of doing this than be expected to dance to someone else's power emotes.

If people disagree with me, I'll just go around emoting "<x> puts you into a stranglehold and throttles you unconscious" whenever I feel like it. 

[Aaron Goulet]

I can sympathize with the original poster for the sole reason that I once lost a character in a similar fashion.  Still, while it isn't the most satisfying way to lose a character you spent days/weeks/months playing, there may have been IC justification.

I stand by the fact that complaints should still be sent if there is evidence of twinkery.  Tearing through the 'rinth on a rampant murdering spree with no IC consequences is unrealistic, because the world doesn't have a chance to react unless the staff happen to be watching at the time.

Also, I partially disagree with your rant, X-D; you're right that it may be roleplay to not emote/think/whatever before PKing somebody, but it strikes me as POOR roleplay, in the same sense that sparring/crafting/foraging/etc without emotes is poor roleplay.  I don't think that it's necessary for the other player to SEE what you're doing, but at least afford them the respect of putting thought and effort into something as drastic as robbing them of a massive investment of time and emotion (A.K.A. their PC).

[DustMight]

As much as I hate the whole 'death with no roleplay' thing when it happens to me, the truth is the roleplay likely happened and your part was fighting and dying.  There could have been a 30 minute conversation in another room where the player(s) discussed what do to about your character and then went forward and did exactly that.

The moment they hesitate - just as all the threads on bandits point out - the victim will run regardless of what setting the attackers put together.

If a victim needs to be put down quickly and it can be done, it is completely reasonable to have it done wham-bam.

It would be nice if they had put in a few combat emotes (did they?) but also they could have been RL shitting their pants and shaking hands and unable to emote (been there).

So, having been on both sides of the blade (as most of us have been) it's probably best to give the benefit of the doubt.

[Reiloth]

Wiz, one of my points and that of a few others is.

You cannot know what roleplay went on before the act, and the act itself is (usually) Roleplay as well, often the culmination of a bunch of roleplay.

I myself usually put a lot of time into a kill attempt. But unless it is a torture scene, 99% of the time the intent of my PC is to kill  the other as quickly as possible. If I have done my job right that will be 1 prompt, no warning. In other words, as realistic as possible.

Assume the best when your PC gets PK'd and be happy it was not random npc #553, because you know there was no roleplay there.

Oh, and far as mercy and magick is concerned, Heh, toss mon un fireball at a gimpka rat with mercy on and see what happens.

[lepxii]

"Amos walks up and places a dagger to your back, "Don't move, else I stab you."

This is a prime example of a power emote. Amos has decided for you that he could successfully sneak up on you and put a dagger to your back before you notice or react defensively.

I'd rather see a coded way of doing this than be expected to dance to someone else's power emotes.

If people disagree with me, I'll just go around emoting "<x> puts you into a stranglehold and throttles you unconscious" whenever I feel like it. 

seconded. Emotes that have a potential physical effect on the opposing party should always be played out open-ended so that the other party can decide on whether your emoted action succeeds / fails and / or allow said other party to emote a counter-play of his own.

Most of the time, you can't be certain what the other party is aware of, heck he might have seen you the whole time and decided to ignore you.

(* there are a few exceptions to the rule -- e.g. emoting out torture on someone who is  tied done (with *consent*)).

[DustMight]

I really want to kick many posting here in the head.

[misogynistic post edited by Nyr.  Use your big kid words, please.]

*STAMP OF FUCKING APPROVAL*

Sorry for the double-post, but this was so good it needed to be quoted again.

[wizturbo]

Assume the best when your PC gets PK'd and be happy it was not random npc #553, because you know there was no roleplay there.

Even assuming there was plenty of roleplay that happened before the "1 prompt" kill, I wouldn't classify that style of assassination as good, high quality roleplaying on the part of the assassin.  A good player brings the environment and the world alive, and I've seen some assassins that do this wonderfully while still getting the job done codedly.  I've had a PC assassinated, and I saved the log and love reading it every so often because of how cool it was.  

Is the swift, efficient, code-only approach of killing another PC acceptable?  As I've said already, yes it is.   But I think it focuses more on insuring the outcome of the assassination attempt rather than bringing the world alive.  To me, the acid test for good roleplay is fairly simple.  If all parties involved can look back at the log of the event and go "wow that was cool" then you've succeeded, anything short of that is sub-optimal, and I wouldn't see myself encouraging sub-optimal roleplay on the GDB.

[Marshmellow]

There are other avenues of roleplay than just emote, and if you are the target of a PK like this, try not to assume that those avenues were not used.  'Think' and 'hemote' and 'semote' and 'feel' are good tools, and just because you were excluded from having them displayed to you does not mean that roleplay didn't happen.

However, you needn't emote before attacking and killing someone, but it is courteous.  It is better if your target can see that you're not acting like an unintelligent NPC/mob so as to avoid hurt feelings and increase in distrust between players.  Keep this in mind.  It would be nice for people to help to create a story instead of simply attacking people because they're trying to win.

[Jingo]

Guess I'll just grind skills as fast as a I can and retire pcs with low stats. 'Cause I know someone's gonna just walk in and gank me first chance they get.

...
But if I thought it was for real, then it's my only recourse.

Absolutely untrue.  Avoid danger you can't handle, whether in the city or wilderness.

True enough, as far as I'm concerned. I don't always have control of IC happenings, or maybe I'm just playing a role that forces me into dangerous territory. In both circumstances I only have control in my method of skill grind. It's not something I'm actually advocating, I just think it's the logical result of what some members of the gdb are advocating.

The flip side of what you're saying, if you think about it, is that you think you'll derive a coded advantage from people emoting, one that will enable you to escape more often or with less-skilled characters.  Ain't it?  Because we're not talking per se about poorly justified PKs; we're talking about minimally roleplayed ones.

I guess?

[DustMight]

You know, one of the things I tend to do now before PKing (or attemping to PK) is to wish up quickly with "My dude is about to pk this dude."

This usually leads me off on some comical run for my own life while I butcher my PK attempt in front of whatever wizinviz staff is watching only to end up dying in some inglorious way. 

At least, however, in this way there is some accountability on the part of the murderer.

[jhunter]

I suppose we can all play Dr. Evil and put  them in an overly elaborate, easily-escapable situations just so they don't miss out on all of the roleplaying that went into the situation so wizturbo doesn't call all of us sub-par roleplayers.

That's not got anything to do with roleplay wizturbo. It's far more realistic for death to happen in the blink of an eye, without ever seeing it coming, than to expect that you get to see the artisticly pretty way the moonlight glints off the obsidian dagger while they gloat about how they're gonna kill you and give you the history on it before proceeding to kill you while writing up eight or ten flowery emotes about the wind in their hair and the quiver of their buttocks. Emoting and acting OOC to "make it more fun for the victim" does -not- equal good roleplay. Sometimes those situations happen where both go hand in hand and that's fine. But to expect that it should be that way every time regardless of the situation or "it's subpar/poor roleplay" is, in and of itself poor roleplay.

[Marshmellow]

That's a strawman, jhunter, and you should know it.  That is NOT what anyone, wizturbo included, is saying should happen.  We're saying that we're all playing this game and that consideration for your fellow players and creating an awesome scene is more important than winning in that scene.

Yes, though, when you or your character winning is the more important than the game or the scene, you are not an exceptional roleplayer.  I wouldn't say 'sub-par' as you said, but you aren't anything awesome, either.

[jhunter]

I'm pretty sure that neither myself, nor anyone else that that we thought one should be putting "winning" ahead of rp. We're talking about -realistic- roleplay. Acting "in character" and not going "out of character" to go hold somebody's hand. When I see someone obviously acting OOC just to try and make a flowery emoted scene it ruins it for me just as much as some of you say someone acting OOC and not doing any of those things ruins it for you. My point, is that there are times, places, and situations where either is appropriate, neither one is wrong, -when used appropriately-. Neither one is right, -when used inappropriately-.

I don't expect information other than "BEEP your fucking dead" to come across my screen if they were successful in a stealth, surprise kill on my pc. If they have me incapacitated, trapped, etc and there is an IC reason to have a talk with me, emote out the scene more, that's cool.

[Aaron Goulet]

I'm pretty sure that neither myself, nor anyone else that that we thought one should be putting "winning" ahead of rp. We're talking about -realistic- roleplay. Acting "in character" and not going "out of character" to go hold somebody's hand. When I see someone obviously acting OOC just to try and make a flowery emoted scene it ruins it for me just as much as some of you say someone acting OOC and not doing any of those things ruins it for you. My point, is that there are times, places, and situations where either is appropriate, neither one is wrong, -when used appropriately-. Neither one is right, -when used inappropriately-.

I don't expect information other than "BEEP your fucking dead" to come across my screen if they were successful in a stealth, surprise kill on my pc. If they have me incapacitated, trapped, etc and there is an IC reason to have a talk with me, emote out the scene more, that's cool.

I can get behind this thinking.  My primary concern is that IC actions are ICly justified, but that's a topic for another thread...  One I'm not even going to bother starting, because we've all seen that discussion before.

[wizturbo]

I suppose we can all play Dr. Evil and put  them in an overly elaborate, easily-escapable situations just so they don't miss out on all of the roleplaying that went into the situation so wizturbo doesn't call all of us sub-par roleplayers.

That's not got anything to do with roleplay wizturbo. It's far more realistic for death to happen in the blink of an eye, without ever seeing it coming, than to expect that you get to see the artisticly pretty way the moonlight glints off the obsidian dagger while they gloat about how they're gonna kill you and give you the history on it before proceeding to kill you while writing up eight or ten flowery emotes about the wind in their hair and the quiver of their buttocks. Emoting and acting OOC to "make it more fun for the victim" does -not- equal good roleplay. Sometimes those situations happen where both go hand in hand and that's fine. But to expect that it should be that way every time regardless of the situation or "it's subpar/poor roleplay" is, in and of itself poor roleplay.

You're kind of misquoting me there.  I said sub-optimal.  Not sub-par.  I said twice already, it's acceptable to use the coded commands to assassinate someone without further fanfare.  It's just not great play in my opinion, and I don't see the value of encouraging people to just play for "par" to use your terminology.

And I never said there needs to be flowery emotes to make something cool either, I'm pretty mediocre at emoting myself, and I find big long flowering emotes to be rather annoying especially in tense, action oriented situations.  I wouldn't say you need to be Dr. Evil to assassinate someone in a cool way, you could utilize different skills to get the job done and greatly improve the story for the other player.  Assassin's get sap and poison (as well as other skills which aren't in the helpfile), which can set up situations where you can add more flavor to the killing.  There are plenty of options available to everyone as well which could prevent escape.  If those other options don't seem like a good solution, and you seriously don't believe you can enhance the scene in any way, then go ahead and just type "backstab poorshmuck"...but I don't see that as being a feather in your hat from a roleplay perspective.

[Marshmellow]

Not all assassinations are done with stealth, though, jhunter.  The complaint was that someone visibly walked into the room without stealth skills in play, did not emote and simply used backstab.  Do you support this action?  I mean, do you think there is NOTHING wrong with what the attacker did?  I'm not saying you should say the attacker is a horrible roleplayer.  I'm not saying you should denounce the new pariah in our midst.  I'm asking, "Do you think the attacker could have played that scene better?"  We're not talking about a completely super-stealth awesome kill.  We're talking about walking into the room and backstabbing someone no different than an NPC could have done.  What do you think?

[lordcooper]

Fuck, I'm surprised at what I've been reading here.

If I was going to kill someone IRL I'm pretty damn sure that I'd think / feel / even DO (emote) something before being able to kill them.

If you're being stealthy then you're hidden somewhere.  Chances are the character isn't standing within arms reach of you.

hide
semote ^me face scrunched up with intense concentration, @ steps lightly into ~wardrobe.

A victimy, victim-looking victim has arrived from the east.

think (sharp pangs of nerves) Okay...time to prove my worth.  I can do this.

emote Easing ~wardrobe's door open, ^me face set like a grim mask, @ steps swiftly and decisively behind ~victim.

backstab victim

Far from ideal, but I could be happy with my PC dying this way.  Admittedly I only get to see the last emote, but I -as a player- know what character killed my pc and that it was probably pretty well played out and added to the gamewolrd.

NOBODY could kill with a thought or emotion.  This applies even more to crossing the distance to their victim.  If you're paranoid about your victim spam felling, then copy the last command, pasting it in the moment after you send the emote.

I'm not saying you should say the attacker is a horrible roleplayer.

In that scenario, I definitely would say they are a terrible roleplayer.  That other character could have just emoted about examining the doorframe before the assassin walked through it and backstabbed them.

Facetious example, but it's true.

[jriley]

I'm glad that the original poster is coming to terms with what happened.  He's probably new, probably a nice guy and may probably contribute much to the game if he sticks around.

That being said, I'm glad that someone stabbed his character in the head.  Stabbing someone in the head is roleplaying, in fact represents the culmination of artistic expression in this game. 

I support the right of players to stab anybody, pretty much at any time, for any reason, or for no reason.  The sole exception being that if one player is griefing another, although it doesn't sound like this was the case.

[lordcooper]

I'm glad that the original poster is coming to terms with what happened.  He's probably new, probably a nice guy and may probably contribute much to the game if he sticks around.

That being said, I'm glad that someone stabbed his character in the head.  Stabbing someone in the head is roleplaying, in fact represents the culmination of artistic expression in this game. 

I support the right of players to stab anybody, pretty much at any time, for any reason, or for no reason.  The sole exception being that if one player is griefing another, although it doesn't sound like this was the case.

I agree, but if you don't emote/think/feel, then it's shit roleplay.  That stuff may have a place in H&S and possibly even RP Enforced, but in an RPI mud?

[jhunter]

Not all assassinations are done with stealth, though, jhunter.  The complaint was that someone visibly walked into the room without stealth skills in play, did not emote and simply used backstab.  Do you support this action?  I mean, do you think there is NOTHING wrong with what the attacker did?  I'm not saying you should say the attacker is a horrible roleplayer.  I'm not saying you should denounce the new pariah in our midst.  I'm asking, "Do you think the attacker could have played that scene better?"  We're not talking about a completely super-stealth awesome kill.  We're talking about walking into the room and backstabbing someone no different than an NPC could have done.  What do you think?

In that -particular- situation, (if it was a pc which I'm inclined to believe it was not) if they weren't at least attempting for stealth (something which I don't think was covered) then the only obvious poor part was not rp'ing attempting to surprise attack someone when you were making no attempt to hide your approach. Otherwise, as far as he knows, the other guy was following him, watching, using stealth, thinks and feels about the situation before making the attempt, and then he botched his attempt at approaching stealthily. (Unbeknownst to him since one cannot tell if they are actually hiding and sneaking successfully other than someone responding to see you enter.)
As others have said, the only ones who can see the whole situation from both sides and have enough information to make any sort of judgement on the quality of roleplay, is the staff. We shouldn't be so inclined to make harsh judgements on the roleplay of others when none of us, from the player's perspective have enough information to do so fairly.

[DustMight]

We have no idea how much RP the assassin put into his attack in the form of thinks/feels/whatnot.

So he didn't emote his combat code, so what?  Nice when it happens, but it's not required.

Again, my advice is to wish up and warn the immortals when you are about to attempt a PK and then do it however you think is reasonable.

Finally, I tend to agree with jhunter, but J - you quote twilight in your profile, and that's just uncomfortable. 

[HavokBlue]

We have no idea how much RP the assassin put into his attack in the form of thinks/feels/whatnot.

So he didn't emote his combat code, so what?  Nice when it happens, but it's not required.

Again, my advice is to wish up and warn the immortals when you are about to attempt a PK and then do it however you think is reasonable.

Finally, I tend to agree with jhunter, but J - you quote twilight in your profile, and that's just uncomfortable. 

I think by Twilight he's referring to the player.

Maybe.

[jhunter]

GAH! Yes, the -player- DAMMIT! 

[DustMight]

...so you say...

[Sokotra]

This is kind of comical because I'm still somewhat convinced that it was an NPC.  If it wasn't, however, then it is unfortunate that the OP fell victim to an assassin that decided to kill someone.  It happens in Armageddon, but I would say that it isn't overly frequent.  Usually you will just have the random run-in with some low-skilled thug or creep or whatever and you will be able to get away.  So, to the Original Poster, don't be discouraged.  This could have been one in very few PKs by the assassin in question, with tons of RP before the you came in contact with the assassin.  If you are going to assassinate someone you don't want them to even get a chance to look at you and see who you are - in case they get away.  It would be nice if they loaded up a nice "emote" macro or something to throw in there during the assassination, but that is not always possible and some people simply don't have the time or ability to do such things. 

Make another character, give it another shot - probably be a good idea to play in a little safer area if you don't want to risk getting killed like that too soon.  Otherwise, if you learned why exactly you got killed then I guess it would be fair to make another character that might be a little more "streetwise" and is able to avoid those particular dangers in some way.  As long as it isn't something that is IC-sensitive information that your character shouldn't know.  I'm assuming the OP is a fairly new player but I could be wrong.

[Bogre]

It really sounds like an NPC to me.

A PC would probably have looked at you sometime during the attack or done -something-. Not many players silently kill someone. And most check to see how close to dead you are .

Rinth players, at least veteran ones, tend not to murder indiscriminately because you reduce the player population up there, which is usually pretty slim to begin with.

[Wedna]

I'm glad that the original poster is coming to terms with what happened.  He's probably new, probably a nice guy and may probably contribute much to the game if he sticks around.

That being said, I'm glad that someone stabbed his character in the head.  Stabbing someone in the head is roleplaying, in fact represents the culmination of artistic expression in this game.  

I support the right of players to stab anybody, pretty much at any time, for any reason, or for no reason.  The sole exception being that if one player is griefing another, although it doesn't sound like this was the case.

I agree, but if you don't emote/think/feel, then it's shit roleplay.  That stuff may have a place in H&S and possibly even RP Enforced, but in an RPI mud?

I disagree. You can't say what is and is not good roleplay like that.

[lordcooper]

I'm glad that the original poster is coming to terms with what happened.  He's probably new, probably a nice guy and may probably contribute much to the game if he sticks around.

That being said, I'm glad that someone stabbed his character in the head.  Stabbing someone in the head is roleplaying, in fact represents the culmination of artistic expression in this game.  

I support the right of players to stab anybody, pretty much at any time, for any reason, or for no reason.  The sole exception being that if one player is griefing another, although it doesn't sound like this was the case.

I agree, but if you don't emote/think/feel, then it's shit roleplay.  That stuff may have a place in H&S and possibly even RP Enforced, but in an RPI mud?

I disagree. You can't say what is and is not good roleplay like that.

Fair point, delete the word roleplay from my sentence.  If you want to mindlessly perform commands without taking the time to consider how your character is performing them, how they feel about them and their reasons for doing so, then you should probably stick to WOW or Fallout.

[AreteX]

I didn't need to be flamed and called a pussy or anything else during this thread.  Alot of people came in here and berated me for being an idiot because I 'whined' about dying.

I guess I shouldn't of posted something like this, but, I did.  I responded to some people who responded to the thread, and now its three pages with a mixture of flames against me and all the other pussies on the board, or people saying, "Yeah, sounds lame, report them."



This GDB is a shithole of unregulated posters who flame people and go crazy with cursing as soon as someone posts something they don't agree with.  The lack of maturity in some of the responses and the generaly assholishness might be one of the reasons more people don't play a place like this.

Its hard enough IC.  "Find out IC" People say, and you go find out IC and get stabbed and lose your character.  Fine.  You get mugged and lose your money.  Fine.  You get bent over by a half-giant and fucked.  Fine.

But then you come on the GDB and post something, and get flamed with curses and insults.  Not fine.

This is NOT IC.  This is insulting REAL PEOPLE.  If I was a new player coming to the game, and reading this board I would think, "Holy crap, alot of assholes must play this game."  I would think a place like this with such a roleplay intensive atmosphere might have some maturity and respect, but it really doesn't.

Either way, I've said my piece.


Can an IMM please lock this thread, or better yet, delete it entirely.

[Gunnerblaster]

You know what... AreteX is absolutely right.

He was bothered that his 'immersion' was abruptly shattered because someone walked into a room and backstabbed him to death. Who wouldn't be? Well, he realized he posted in the heat of the moment and he came back and edited it before the 5th poster, yet this somehow blew up into 3 pages of flames.

Stop acting like jerks, please. It pushes players away.

[Armaddict]

Is the swift, efficient, code-only approach of killing another PC acceptable?  As I've said already, yes it is.   But I think it focuses more on insuring the outcome of the assassination attempt rather than bringing the world alive.  To me, the acid test for good roleplay is fairly simple.  If all parties involved can look back at the log of the event and go "wow that was cool" then you've succeeded, anything short of that is sub-optimal, and I wouldn't see myself encouraging sub-optimal roleplay on the GDB.

Unfortunately that test is highly subjective, circumstantial, and based entirely on the moods and personalities of those involved.  You not getting a long, elaborate scene is not 'sub-par' roleplay.  It means you got killed.  Whether it was planned or not, it was a choice made, and therefore -does- add to the game and its story, whether you became privy to such or not.  Such is the point.  No sub-par roleplay is being encouraged, instead the thing that has always always been present is being defended.  Every now and then, this thread always pops up because someone feels jipped.  Meanwhile, the result ends up the same either way, which means the story is neither subtracted from or degraded.  The story goes on, and your character's part in it is over.  Find another way in.

Modified to add:  By the way, I'm in no way discouraging what you're asking for.  I consider it courtesy, I consider it enjoyable...but I also consider it risky, having been in the place where you try and grant someone a scene and they just use it to spend that extra time using the way or using a chance to escape that wouldn't have been there had the 'efficient' way been used.  If you can fit it in, it's nice.  What I mean is that it is in no way 'necessary' to 'good roleplay'.  The roleplay is in the action, not the flavor text.

[Qzzrbl]

I didn't need to be flamed and called a pussy or anything else during this thread.  Alot of people came in here and berated me for being an idiot because I 'whined' about dying.

I guess I shouldn't of posted something like this, but, I did.  I responded to some people who responded to the thread, and now its three pages with a mixture of flames against me and all the other pussies on the board, or people saying, "Yeah, sounds lame, report them."



This GDB is a shithole of unregulated posters who flame people and go crazy with cursing as soon as someone posts something they don't agree with.  The lack of maturity in some of the responses and the generaly assholishness might be one of the reasons more people don't play a place like this.

Its hard enough IC.  "Find out IC" People say, and you go find out IC and get stabbed and lose your character.  Fine.  You get mugged and lose your money.  Fine.  You get bent over by a half-giant and fucked.  Fine.

But then you come on the GDB and post something, and get flamed with curses and insults.  Not fine.

This is NOT IC.  This is insulting REAL PEOPLE.  If I was a new player coming to the game, and reading this board I would think, "Holy crap, alot of assholes must play this game."  I would think a place like this with such a roleplay intensive atmosphere might have some maturity and respect, but it really doesn't.

Either way, I've said my piece.


Can an IMM please lock this thread, or better yet, delete it entirely.

For the record, it's not a great idea to take anything anybody posts towards you on the GDB to heart.... Especially if Malifaxis is posting.

[Timetwister]

For the record, I know for a fact there are players who skate around the idea of roleplaying just so they can cover themselves so they can pkill more players. You'll find these types of players at any mud. Their sole goal is to kill players, and if it weren't, they would be playing merchants right now, not maxxed <insert combat guild here> every few months.

[Lizzie]

It's been my experience, through observation, that any time someone says "I know for a fact," they probably don't know much of anything at all.

[Nyr]

I edited out a Malifaxis-style posting.  Grow up, kids, and use your adult words.

[Lizzie]

1. Whenever Malifaxis posts anything, eliminate all vulgarities, and replace any vulgar nouns with the word "person" or "people." Malifaxis is a creation of the GDB. Consider it a thing, rather than a person; a particular GDB attribute. Just as Gimfalisette is the "database" and not an actual person, Malifaxis is the "vulgarity" of the GDB and not an actual person. Both will give the same exact opinion sometimes, but each will sound unique.

2. This rp vs. pk argument comes around regularly. The flip side to it, is when the assassin WANTS to roleplay, but the victim logs out or insta-flees or insta-attacks as soon as they see risk. Assassins see this all the time. Scenarios:

a. Assassin, after stalking victim for a few minutes out of the city gate, speaks from the shadows, "Caught you at last, mwahahaha."
Victim, who is a ranger with ranger-quit, logs out. Victim plays WoW for an hour, logs back in, returns to safety, and tells everyone in-game that someone is trying to kill him.
or worse:
b. Victim, who is a ranger with ranger-quit and max scan, LOOKS at the shadow, and THEN quits out, then comes back an hour later and identifies the failed assassin to the templars.
c. Victim immediately flees with absolutely zero RP at all, no time to even type "think oh shit" - just mount run west
d. Victim, who has max-scan, spam-types "kill shadow" until his blade hits something, with no thinks, no talking, no emotes.

The quit incident is a lot more common than you'd think - I've watched it happen several times, when I wasn't even playing an assassin or someone who wanted to kill the target at all.

Unfortunately, it's a vicious cycle. An assassin CANNOT roleplay if he wants to ensure that he'll actually be able to assassinate someone whose player refuses to roleplay in turn. An assassin can't possibly know which one the victim is (the roleplayer or the ranger-quitter) until he tries. And by then, it's too late. So it's a combination of things, and the burden doesn't fall solely on the assassin's shoulders. Roleplay is a two-way game, in Armageddon. If you want assassins to roleplay more, then encourage your fellow victim-players to stop ranger-quitting, stop auto-fleeing, stop spam-attacking shadows with no attempt at "creating the scene."

And, if you feel that your assassin killed you *exclusively* because he could, and for no other reason, then report it to the staff.

[Nyr]

Actually, after reading some other responses and how the OP took them, I'm locking the thread.

[Nyr]

Also, had Malifaxis posted that, I'd ban him for a week, too.  Act like a complete asshole to people asking legitimate questions and flame them, and you, too, can join the legion of the banned.  There's no excuse for it.  I could see acting like a douchebag to longtime players (how you do it affects how staff responds), but running off at the mouth to someone that has lost a PC, asking for feedback--that's just a dick move.  Don't do it.