Complaint trend #650 -- Allanak (or Tuluk) sucks

[Qeynos]

I find the concept of Tuluki subtlety to be a bit daft. It would work if this was a novel where the subtlety could be described and you would know what was going on beneath the surface, but in practice in a roleplaying environment, I find that it more often translates into boredom and the perception that nothing is happening. In Tuluk, everything is meant to be hush-hush and left out of sight, and to anyone not involved in whatever is being handled in this way, it might as well not have happened. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it sort of thing.

On the other hand, since that is so starkly against the instincts of many roleplayers, I also find that this tradition often isn't adhered to. People want to create stories, to share experiences, to be noticed. When playing in Tuluk, I witnessed a lot of what appeared to be conflict between what is right and what is natural. You've just done something really interesting and impressive, but it happens to be the sort of thing that, according to the documentation, should be swept under the rug and never talked of. Do you do that, following the "rules" and doing the right thing, or do you do what actually contributes to an interesting roleplaying environment (for more than the two or three people involved) and gives others something to care about? Since the latter is usually the natural thing for a roleplayer, it felt like the common conventions often had to be broken in order for the roleplaying environemt to not stagnate. You don't make a city's roleplay look appealing by enforcing secrecy and discretion, and I think it especially hurts those who aren't adept at weaving stories around themselves and getting their foot in the door of every plot in the vicinity. If you're a newer player, off-peak, or in a role that doesn't automatically get involved in plots, I can see how this might get really boring. It'll look and feel as if nothing is going on, and I also think the subtlety itself limits the development of many plots and interactions.

Allanak, however, feels like the place where nothing much changes simply because it has stayed the same for so long. I expect that this city hosts a greater proportion of the jaded veterans who value the status quo and prefer things the way they've always been. Allanak has the capacity for just about anything to happen, the elements needed for perpetual conflict and overt hardship and so on, it just isn't carried out very much. What it does offer is the ability for you to do things without being labeled a "disturber of the peace"; it only takes ambitious players to do so, and they wouldn't be working against the grain. You can do your thing and let everybody hear about it, you can bully and oppress and be assertive without having to also make sure nobody knows, thus allowing the players to create a vibrant and universally interesting roleplaying environment. It just needs to actually be done more.

[Kronus]

I find the concept of Tuluki subtlety to be a bit daft.

I have been under the impression that Tuluki value subtlety only as it applies to currying social favor (and when being a licensed assassin is involved).   No one appreciates an obsequious brownnose or obvious attempts to gain favor with showy gifts, and it's (according to the docs) expected that people increase their social standing without being blatant that it's what they're trying to do.  A noble might, for example, commission a small caravan of trade wagons to be shared amongst the free citizen merchants of the city in order to increase his standing with those merchants, but he'd announce that it was being done to strengthen the economic might of The Ivory City and to spread the splendor of the Sun King's civilization to the barbaric outlanders and that would make it okay with everyone (even if everyone privately understands what's actually going on).

Unless you can show me where it does, I'm reasonably sure that nowhere in the docs does it state that Tuluki are close lipped and don't enjoy bragging about their exploits or sharing the latest news.

[racurtne]

Only wanted to slip in on the comment about Nakkis being downright patriotic. They seem patriotic because if you're the only guy not shouting patriotic things you're likely to get killed/beaten/etc. I'm sure some are patriotic, but everyone else is basically frightened into it.

[Spartan]

The problem with Allanaki culture around music is that there is no precedence to rely on. From the documents, I take it that Allanak has a much more sophisticated and ordered music culture than Tuluk (which would be closer to 'tribal' music). It's like comparing Hollywood to Broadway. Except, there's almost a complete lack of Allanaki "Hollywood" apart from House Fale, which only ends up being jokesters and mockery of things.

That said, I for one will make an attempt at a uniquely 'nakki-flavored bard.

[jriley]

...a bunch of stuff...

I disagree.  I think the OP has as much right o express his opinions as anyone else.

...
...
Lastly, not so much an observation as a RTW, but I wish the Allanaki-'rinth divide wasn't so severe.  The 'rinth was a big bowl of fun back when it was simply a lawless part of Allanak.

I've tried "being the change," but breaking the social norms just gets my characters in trouble.

Yeah, several good points.  But I agree especially with the the last two.  I think the "be the change" concept applies to setting a good role-play example, but not necessarily to achieving desired changes in the world theme or game administration.  For example, if a group of players decide that PCs should be more racist towards elves, that's a fantastic opportunity for them to express themselves in game.  However if a group of players decide that it would be cool if there were more raiders in game, it's not necessarily their duty to drop everything that they're doing and try to hand-build a raider clan.  This is the sort of thing that should be negotiated out of game and with staff.  Creating game atmosphere is in large part a staff responsibility.

Oh yeah, and the Labryinth?  I'm glad to hear you express this view.  People tend to treat the Labyrinth as though it's part of a different planet than Allanak rather than treating it merely as a different neighborhood. 

I find the concept of Tuluki subtlety to be a bit daft. It would work if this was a novel where the subtlety could be described and you would know what was going on beneath the surface, but in practice in a roleplaying environment, I find that it more often translates into boredom and the perception that nothing is happening. In Tuluk, everything is meant to be hush-hush and left out of sight, and to anyone not involved in whatever is being handled in this way, it might as well not have happened. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it sort of thing.

I'm sorry that you don't like it.  Tell me, are you a fan at all of political intrigue?  Stalinist purges hold a certain allure for people who are fans of that period in history.  Tuluk is kind of like a big game of Texas hold 'em.

[Zoan]

I think a whole heap of people are outright patriotic in Allanak. This is a world where society as a whole has never considered rebellion, and the status quo is as it's always been to them, so they'd not see anything particularly 'wrong' with it (not to say they may think it right, but they're for the most part a simple, superstitious lot in Allanak and would not blame it on their God-King provider).

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

House Voryek is a minor Merchant House that deals primarily in art and antiquities. Based primarily out of the southern city-state of Allanak, they have also secured minor holdings within Tuluk as well. In addition to their art dealings, the Voryeki are also known to be fanatical historians.

Renowned for their entertainments and extravagant festivals, Fales are sociable, giddy creatures, experts in matters of style, food, wine and spice. ... The normal Fale reaction to any crisis situation is to throw a party and hope whatever it is either blows over or goes away. ... the Fales exert an uncommon amount of influence.

A key group in this developement was House Kadius, whose crafters' expertise allowed instruments to be more reliable, easy to use, higher quality, and possessing a purer tone. In the south much of the way music was shaped was attributed to House Fale, which often premiered some new musical styles or pieces at their lavish parties.

Voryek's been closed a long time, though. And Fale is currently closed.

[Malifaxis]

I find the concept of Tuluki subtlety to be a bit daft. It would work if this was a novel where the subtlety could be described and you would know what was going on beneath the surface, but in practice in a roleplaying environment, I find that it more often translates into boredom and the perception that nothing is happening. In Tuluk, everything is meant to be hush-hush and left out of sight, and to anyone not involved in whatever is being handled in this way, it might as well not have happened. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it sort of thing.

On the other hand, since that is so starkly against the instincts of many roleplayers, I also find that this tradition often isn't adhered to. People want to create stories, to share experiences, to be noticed. When playing in Tuluk, I witnessed a lot of what appeared to be conflict between what is right and what is natural. You've just done something really interesting and impressive, but it happens to be the sort of thing that, according to the documentation, should be swept under the rug and never talked of. Do you do that, following the "rules" and doing the right thing, or do you do what actually contributes to an interesting roleplaying environment (for more than the two or three people involved) and gives others something to care about? Since the latter is usually the natural thing for a roleplayer, it felt like the common conventions often had to be broken in order for the roleplaying environemt to not stagnate. You don't make a city's roleplay look appealing by enforcing secrecy and discretion, and I think it especially hurts those who aren't adept at weaving stories around themselves and getting their foot in the door of every plot in the vicinity. If you're a newer player, off-peak, or in a role that doesn't automatically get involved in plots, I can see how this might get really boring. It'll look and feel as if nothing is going on, and I also think the subtlety itself limits the development of many plots and interactions.

Allanak, however, feels like the place where nothing much changes simply because it has stayed the same for so long. I expect that this city hosts a greater proportion of the jaded veterans who value the status quo and prefer things the way they've always been. Allanak has the capacity for just about anything to happen, the elements needed for perpetual conflict and overt hardship and so on, it just isn't carried out very much. What it does offer is the ability for you to do things without being labeled a "disturber of the peace"; it only takes ambitious players to do so, and they wouldn't be working against the grain. You can do your thing and let everybody hear about it, you can bully and oppress and be assertive without having to also make sure nobody knows, thus allowing the players to create a vibrant and universally interesting roleplaying environment. It just needs to actually be done more.

AHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! 

[Qeynos]

AHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! 

Yes, you certainly add a lot to these forums. Shall we get out our penises and a ruler as well? That seems to be your general agenda wherever I've seen you post.

[Reiteration]

I find the concept of Tuluki subtlety to be a bit daft. It would work if this was a novel where the subtlety could be described and you would know what was going on beneath the surface, but in practice in a roleplaying environment, I find that it more often translates into boredom and the perception that nothing is happening. In Tuluk, everything is meant to be hush-hush and left out of sight, and to anyone not involved in whatever is being handled in this way, it might as well not have happened. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it sort of thing.

On the other hand, since that is so starkly against the instincts of many roleplayers, I also find that this tradition often isn't adhered to. People want to create stories, to share experiences, to be noticed. When playing in Tuluk, I witnessed a lot of what appeared to be conflict between what is right and what is natural. You've just done something really interesting and impressive, but it happens to be the sort of thing that, according to the documentation, should be swept under the rug and never talked of. Do you do that, following the "rules" and doing the right thing, or do you do what actually contributes to an interesting roleplaying environment (for more than the two or three people involved) and gives others something to care about? Since the latter is usually the natural thing for a roleplayer, it felt like the common conventions often had to be broken in order for the roleplaying environemt to not stagnate. You don't make a city's roleplay look appealing by enforcing secrecy and discretion, and I think it especially hurts those who aren't adept at weaving stories around themselves and getting their foot in the door of every plot in the vicinity. If you're a newer player, off-peak, or in a role that doesn't automatically get involved in plots, I can see how this might get really boring. It'll look and feel as if nothing is going on, and I also think the subtlety itself limits the development of many plots and interactions.

Allanak, however, feels like the place where nothing much changes simply because it has stayed the same for so long. I expect that this city hosts a greater proportion of the jaded veterans who value the status quo and prefer things the way they've always been. Allanak has the capacity for just about anything to happen, the elements needed for perpetual conflict and overt hardship and so on, it just isn't carried out very much. What it does offer is the ability for you to do things without being labeled a "disturber of the peace"; it only takes ambitious players to do so, and they wouldn't be working against the grain. You can do your thing and let everybody hear about it, you can bully and oppress and be assertive without having to also make sure nobody knows, thus allowing the players to create a vibrant and universally interesting roleplaying environment. It just needs to actually be done more.

AHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! 

>Types out laughing

[Malifaxis]

AHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! 

Yes, you certainly add a lot to these forums. Shall we get out our penises and a ruler as well? That seems to be your general agenda wherever I've seen you post.

Depends, will you post with this account or one of the 4 alts?

You're so damn cute.

I could go through your post and pick it apart point by point, but I actually have shit to do in real life.  Tuluki subtlety and Allanaki subtlety are both very real, and very well set in motion on both sides.  If you haven't experienced this, in both cities, then you really should. 

I highly advise you apply for the Jihaen role, if it is still open.  It will likely change your views, if you get it.

[Reiteration]

Both cities are horrible, go play in Luir's

INB4 the shit hits the fans.

[Qeynos]

I've never claimed that the subtlety isn't real. I said that I often find it to be detrimental to roleplay, and that some people disregard it for the sake of creating roleplay where there would otherwise have been none if one followed the expected cultural norms. To base an entire culture on the practice of making sure people don't know about anything out of the ordinary seems counterintuitive to a storytelling game, and I suspect that this is part of the reason why so many players deliberately refrain from playing in Tuluk, or give it shit for being a treehugging happyland where nothing bad happens (as far as they can tell). But then, seeing as you have so much shit to do that you only had time to type HAHAHAHAHA, I can see how you might have completely failed to see the point.

[Cutthroat]

House Voryek is a minor Merchant House that deals primarily in art and antiquities. Based primarily out of the southern city-state of Allanak, they have also secured minor holdings within Tuluk as well. In addition to their art dealings, the Voryeki are also known to be fanatical historians.

Renowned for their entertainments and extravagant festivals, Fales are sociable, giddy creatures, experts in matters of style, food, wine and spice. ... The normal Fale reaction to any crisis situation is to throw a party and hope whatever it is either blows over or goes away. ... the Fales exert an uncommon amount of influence.

A key group in this developement was House Kadius, whose crafters' expertise allowed instruments to be more reliable, easy to use, higher quality, and possessing a purer tone. In the south much of the way music was shaped was attributed to House Fale, which often premiered some new musical styles or pieces at their lavish parties.

Voryek's been closed a long time, though. And Fale is currently closed.

Yes, but my point is that there's a basis for art in Allanak. The OP is claiming that Allanak just doesn't have these things that provide a foundation to an artistic culture in Allanak. He's wrong because the basis exists virtually - whether it's acknowledged by players is another matter, and I think it should be, even if those clans are closed to players.

What I am saying is, if there is a place in Allanak for Voryek and Fale to exist, there is a place for an independent artist to exist - just like as Salarr exists, so do indy armor and weapon crafters, and as the Byn exists, there are independent mercenaries.

[Malifaxis]

I've never claimed that the subtlety isn't real. I said that I often find it to be detrimental to roleplay, and that some people disregard it for the sake of creating roleplay where there would otherwise have been none if one followed the expected cultural norms. To base an entire culture on the practice of making sure people don't know about anything out of the ordinary seems counterintuitive to a storytelling game, and I suspect that this is part of the reason why so many players deliberately refrain from playing in Tuluk, or give it shit for being a treehugging happyland where nothing bad happens (as far as they can tell). But then, seeing as you have so much shit to do that you only had time to type HAHAHAHAHA, I can see how you might have completely failed to see the point.

It may be a small part of the reason, but a large part is that everyone is always pissing on Tuluk in every thread on the goddamn GDB.

The north has an unbelievably active group of leader PCs right now, PCs who have stood the test of time, and who actively do everything they can to include newbies in day to day activities as well as ventures of a more adventurous sort.  The unfortunate thing is that since there's so much trash talk about Tuluk, fewer players go up there to experience it.

The last time I was in Allanak, which was not long ago, I couldn't swing my pathetically small dick without hitting 5 bynners, 4 mages, 3 half giants, 2 elves, and a fucking demon.  Did I meet a single non-byn leader PC?  No.  You know why?  They don't get out and about commonly... because that's the way Allanak rolls.  Most nobles are incredibly aloof, and hate being seen 'amongst the rabble.'  That to me, seems equally as counter intuitive as what you've stated, but no one mentions it, do they?

[wizturbo]

In my experiences there is definitely a palate for the arts in Allanak, but it's very strictly focused on the nobility, the templarate, and Tektolnes.  If you make art for the common person, it'll likely be viewed as subversive unless it highlights one of those three things, or greatly involve one of those three things in it's construction.

As for subtly, I somewhat agree that things being too subtle is boring for the common player who doesn't really get to see behind the scenes all that often.  But at the same time, it makes those rare times where you DO see behind the scenes that much more special and exciting.

As another random thought on the topic of Allanaki culture, I'm a bit disappointed to see what's happened to the gemmed in the city.  They are supposed to be oppressed, and looked down upon, and feared but I think it's become so extreme that they can't even socialize in the Gaj without risking death.  This makes no sense to me.  The gemmed might be scary, dirty magickers, but the fact of the matter is they are valuable pseudo-slaves to the Templarate.  An extremely valuable advantage in both military and economic matters for the city state of Allanak compared to the rest of the known world.  I realize that some events over the last RL year may have them viewed as more of a menace than normal, but having the pendulum sway back towards allowing them to be semi-functioning members of society again would be good for the city, good for the game, and most certainly good for the few players who take up such roles.

[wizturbo]

Did I meet a single non-byn leader PC?  No.  You know why?  They don't get out and about commonly... because that's the way Allanak rolls.  Most nobles are incredibly aloof, and hate being seen 'amongst the rabble.'  That to me, seems equally as counter intuitive as what you've stated, but no one mentions it, do they?

I view this as a facilities issue, to be honest.  Allanak has three bars, a lower class, a middle class and an upper class.  The sheer population of lower class tavern goers makes the lower class bar always more exciting from an OOC perspective than the other two...so...people of all social classes go there except the nobles.  The nobles cannot go there, they'd look like fools.  The middle class bar used to attract the bulk of the attention, and that was much better for the game because nobles could realistically go there and be "slumming it" without being totally out of character.

If more people went to the middle class bar, I think you'd have a chance to actually interact with and see noble leaders in the city...

[Cutthroat]

I've never claimed that the subtlety isn't real. I said that I often find it to be detrimental to roleplay, and that some people disregard it for the sake of creating roleplay where there would otherwise have been none if one followed the expected cultural norms. To base an entire culture on the practice of making sure people don't know about anything out of the ordinary seems counterintuitive to a storytelling game,

IMO, the "subtle culture" of Tuluk OOCly encourages players to get into clanned/patronage roleplay up north so they know what's going on. Or, in other words, play Tuluk for what it is. People that intentionally leave themselves out of the loop in Tuluk are missing out on a lot of what Tuluk's about. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think with the culture of "subtlety", there is still a lot that can be done to spread the word of your Tuluki's exploits there.

and I suspect that this is part of the reason why so many players deliberately refrain from playing in Tuluk, or give it shit for being a treehugging happyland where nothing bad happens (as far as they can tell).

Perhaps part of the reason is this misunderstanding that Tuluki storytelling and roleplay has to be very similar to Allanaki storytelling and roleplay. It's not. I suspect it's mainly that and the fact that out of the two cities, Tuluk's historically been the kicked dog of the GDB.

[jhunter]

I love both for what they are.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't think Tuluk sucks. However, I don't appreciate it, so I don't play there.

I love Allanak - with all of my heart.

That said, both of the cities sort of suck, for one reason alone. There is too much player dilution. We need one city, period. I'd rather it be Allanak, but it's sort of irrelevant to the problem. One might argue against such a statement, and mention how different the two places are and how they have their place and so on, and you're right. But the fact remains.

One city, with the same number of players as currently play in both cities, would never sleep.

[Salt Merchant]

I've always figured Allanak would have some patrons of fine quality stone work.

It would be cool to see a few more pieces appear around the city, like that snarling face that is across from one of the entrances to the bazaar. Whoever wrote that had a fit of enviable creativity. Harsh stonework to go with a harsh city environment.

But I suppose there's little incentive to create when an active volcano is looming over the outer wall.

Tuluk.. not so much.

[boog]

I don't think Tuluk sucks. However, I don't appreciate it, so I don't play there.

I love Allanak - with all of my heart.

That said, both of the cities sort of suck, for one reason alone. There is too much player dilution. We need one city, period. I'd rather it be Allanak, but it's sort of irrelevant to the problem. One might argue against such a statement, and mention how different the two places are and how they have their place and so on, and you're right. But the fact remains.

One city, with the same number of players as currently play in both cities, would never sleep.

Or just less spots to hang at.

[Aaron Goulet]

I don't think Tuluk sucks. However, I don't appreciate it, so I don't play there.

I love Allanak - with all of my heart.

That said, both of the cities sort of suck, for one reason alone. There is too much player dilution. We need one city, period. I'd rather it be Allanak, but it's sort of irrelevant to the problem. One might argue against such a statement, and mention how different the two places are and how they have their place and so on, and you're right. But the fact remains.

One city, with the same number of players as currently play in both cities, would never sleep.

Or just less spots to hang at.

I believe this was discussed quite a while ago, but it went unappreciated by the playerbase (read: people didn't like the idea).  I, personally, haven't had much of a hard time getting interaction lately, but I remember playing off-peak and wondering where those other 13 players were...

[Gimfalisette]

One city, with the same number of players as currently play in both cities, would never sleep.

You know what would be even better than one city?

TWICE THE FUCKING PLAYERS.

Everyone go recruit some friends. Bitches.

(Do it or I'll post data! I swear I will!)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't think Tuluk sucks. However, I don't appreciate it, so I don't play there.

I love Allanak - with all of my heart.

That said, both of the cities sort of suck, for one reason alone. There is too much player dilution. We need one city, period. I'd rather it be Allanak, but it's sort of irrelevant to the problem. One might argue against such a statement, and mention how different the two places are and how they have their place and so on, and you're right. But the fact remains.

One city, with the same number of players as currently play in both cities, would never sleep.

Or just less spots to hang at.

I wouldn't reduce the number of spots to hang at. If a city is to be fully fleshed out, there needs to be numerous choices. But if the current population of both cities were condensed into one city, the dynamics of things would change completely. Suddenly, noble players would never be bored (well, relative to now, of course), and the bars would always seem full. All of the bars.

Add inter-House conflict that was allowed to escalate into mini wars, provided nobody got caught, and not only would the conflict be in the game, and deep too, but the social players, who're the ones who tend to play city-based characters, would be elated, once they got over the fact that their favorite city might have been toasted or washed away.

For the concept of one major city, I would even play in Tuluk, and I have not done that in ... six or seven years.