Complaint trend #650 -- Allanak (or Tuluk) sucks

[DustMight]

Just to be clear, I'm not a hate machine - it's really that I love Allanak and want to see a real art/culture thing there.  I desperately want to have that happen but for - I dunno - 8 years (skip my first few of playing) I have been unable to get it done and have personally experienced a lack of support from the immortals in creating and supporting such a thing.

(No judgement on staff - I have no idea what your priorities are and don't expect them to match mine, clearly you've done a good job not following my lead. LOL)

I do have a special app in place and now I wish I had apped him as a master-crafter who could paint/draw like Rembrandt and if he does get approved and is able to create master works of art for Allanak, then I'll eat vestric.  If he is unable to do it, then I'll spew my northern hate again. 

Didn't someone say they wanted a war??

[Gimfalisette]

Just to be clear, I'm not a hate machine - it's really that I love Allanak and want to see a real art/culture thing there.  I desperately want to have that happen but for - I dunno - 8 years (skip my first few of playing) I have been unable to get it done and have personally experienced a lack of support from the immortals in creating and supporting such a thing.

Hey, I love Allanak too. I don't think you're a hate machine. But I think your frustration is misplaced. I think now that we have player-driven, it's a perfect time to be the change you want to see. I think your PC is going to need to live a long time, master some related coded skills, make a lot of wealthy contacts, and all that good stuff. But if you can do that, then I think you're golden to make some serious art for Nak.

I've done a little bit of Nakki art...my militia Sergeant composed some songs that were meant to portray the feel of Allanak. But I'd love to see more of all kinds of art for Allanak. (My whine about this? My PCs just live too damn long, so any Allanaki PC bard/artist concept I may want to play is going to be a long time in coming.)

[Marshmellow]

You sound like it, though, not to mention that you sound like you were criticizing staff, DustMight.  Let's take a quick look at some of your issues, shall we?

1, 'Nak has no IMM support for art or culture?  Wow, that sounds like a complaint/criticism because they made the world varied and not uniform.  I think this complaint is pointless.

2, Unrealistically few types of goods?  You haven't shopped the entirety of 'Nak if you think Tuluk has so many more shops than it does.  There are some types of gear that you don't get a huge selection to pick from, but they're somewhat generic items anyway.  You want something special, find someone that makes/sells something special and interact with your fellow players.

3, Can't hunt as a newb?  Incorrect.  I notice again that you're not trying to solve this in game, because we go back to the world not being uniform.  Different tactics or strategies to accomplish the same thing in different environments?  Tragic, you seem to say.  I think it's awesome.

4, You're wrong.  You just haven't found them yet.

5, Again we go back to variation.  Tuluki's are high on art and 'Nakkis aren't.  It's culture.  You don't like it, play elsewhere in the game and stop making it out to be some huge and horrible thing.

Yeah, you sound like you're bitching and criticizing all for all sorts of frivolous and inane reasons.  Oh, and you give the benefit of the doubt but call 'em like you see 'em?  This looks more like calling 'em like you see 'em, jumping to conclusions and giving nobody the benefit of the doubt.  Sorry.

[DustMight]

Marsh:

1. 'nak does not have any imm supported art or culture - that is an observation of fact.

2. I didn't say there were not solutions to lack of goods in 'nak - though it can be damn hard to find a merchant pc - just that goods are far easier to come by in Tuluk.

3. I challenge you as a 0 day newbie to go out and hunt in 'nak and see how far you get.  Now try it in Tuluk.  Again, statement of fact.  In fact some GMH bring all their new hunters north before letting them hunt south.

4.  I have played in 'nak almost exclusively for many years and only recently started a few characters in Tuluk (to gain a fair perspective).  Sitting around the Firestorm and tons of GMHers come waltzing in - not so with the Gaj or the Barrel, er Red's.

5.  No culture (that I can think of) is bereft of art and culture.  It is unrealistic and could change.  Wanting change, Marshmellow, is not a bad thing.  Pointing out things that I think need change is also not a bad thing - the "love it or leave it" philosophy is lame.

As I asked Gim, I'll ask you - I've pointed out a few facts (notably #1) and am waiting for someone to prove me wrong with fact (I'm willing to change my mind).  There was the Atrium, laid low for some reason I don't know.  There are no NPC artists, there are no NPC bards, no artist guilds, nothing.  Again, instead of just mindlessly saying "He's all hatin' and he's wrong" SHOW me where I'm wrong.

[Nyr]

I made this thread to consolidate this latest trend of complaining and get it out of the Random Armageddon Thoughts thread.

It'll stay open a while before it'll be locked.  Enjoy.

[Marshmellow]

Allanak is not devoid of art.  It's just harder.  As Nyr pointed out, if you want to make items, you must be a mastercrafter.  Not all art requires items.  Just because there aren't entire sections of the culture set aside for art doesn't mean there is no art.

[Cutthroat]

House Voryek is a minor Merchant House that deals primarily in art and antiquities. Based primarily out of the southern city-state of Allanak, they have also secured minor holdings within Tuluk as well. In addition to their art dealings, the Voryeki are also known to be fanatical historians.

Renowned for their entertainments and extravagant festivals, Fales are sociable, giddy creatures, experts in matters of style, food, wine and spice. ... The normal Fale reaction to any crisis situation is to throw a party and hope whatever it is either blows over or goes away. ... the Fales exert an uncommon amount of influence.

A key group in this developement was House Kadius, whose crafters' expertise allowed instruments to be more reliable, easy to use, higher quality, and possessing a purer tone. In the south much of the way music was shaped was attributed to House Fale, which often premiered some new musical styles or pieces at their lavish parties.

The documentation supports the arts in the south. There were/are NPCs in Allanak that offer artistic things like paintings and crafts. There are statues, there are complex structures. There have been several PC bards in Allanak, especially when House Fale was open. I think that a PC that is art-inclined in Allanak is definitely viable. Maybe you need to think about what kind of art would be appreciated in Allanak, and how that would differ from Tuluk and other places.

[Nyr]

Marsh:

1. 'nak does not have any imm supported art or culture - that is an observation of fact.

No, it's an opinion stated as an observation of fact.  The facts:  Allanak has ample opportunity for existing staff-supported clans and non-clans to submit and achieve works of art in-game.

2. I didn't say there were not solutions to lack of goods in 'nak - though it can be damn hard to find a merchant pc - just that goods are far easier to come by in Tuluk.

Playerbase wants, needs, and playing styles fluctuate.  I remember many times that there were no merchant PCs in Tuluk.  Try harder.

3. I challenge you as a 0 day newbie to go out and hunt in 'nak and see how far you get.  Now try it in Tuluk.  Again, statement of fact.  In fact some GMH bring all their new hunters north before letting them hunt south.

This is also not a statement of fact, but your opinion presented as one.  The facts:  We have added new creatures in the southlands (no, not right up against Allanak city proper, you may have to search some).  We have made one area near Tuluk absolutely batshit insane for hunters (ie, good luck and try not to die).  Could there be more easy shit near Allanak to hunt?  Sure.  I don't think you can deny that increase in difficulty near Tuluk does even out the playing field, making the area much less "easy mode" than it used to be.

4.  I have played in 'nak almost exclusively for many years and only recently started a few characters in Tuluk (to gain a fair perspective).  Sitting around the Firestorm and tons of GMHers come waltzing in - not so with the Gaj or the Barrel, er Red's.

No comment, I don't see how one anecdote means anything.  An anecdote can't prove anything except that, yes, at the time you played or are playing, you are seeing increased activity in one area of the game.

5.  No culture (that I can think of) is bereft of art and culture.  It is unrealistic and could change.  Wanting change, Marshmellow, is not a bad thing.  Pointing out things that I think need change is also not a bad thing - the "love it or leave it" philosophy is lame.

And no legitimate argument can be bereft of reason.  You have been tooting this horn for at least a year or two and the opportunity is there for players to input change IC or to work with their staff.  Time to put the vuvuzela down and work on some art.

As I asked Gim, I'll ask you - I've pointed out a few facts (notably #1) and am waiting for someone to prove me wrong with fact (I'm willing to change my mind).  There was the Atrium, laid low for some reason I don't know.  There are no NPC artists, there are no NPC bards, no artist guilds, nothing.  Again, instead of just mindlessly saying "He's all hatin' and he's wrong" SHOW me where I'm wrong.

tatooists are not artists?
art supply NPCs are not artists?
merchant guilds are not artists?
people can't take the time necessary to get in good with House Borsail, work for them for years, then leave to work on a venture that is an independent clan with some official noble backing, working on that for years too?  Well, probably not, actually.  Armageddon is haaard.

There, I proved you wrong.  Now go out there and do something.

edited to fix a line that wasn't completed, session timed out

[Nyr]

PS, if anyone can figure out what the title alludes to, I'll say something cool about you so that you can sig it in your profile (in or out of context).

[DustMight]

And no legitimate argument can be bereft of reason.  You have been tooting this horn for at least a year or two and the opportunity is there for players to input change IC or to work with their staff.  Time to put the vuvuzela down and work on some art.

Longer than a year or two, actually.  For years with many breaks in between as I give up.

Things may be freer now with the whole "master craft" thing in place.

I have a special app in queue that will do just that, Nyr.  I look forward to playing that character.

[brytta.leofa]

Nyr, is there a crafting skill that would support mastercrafted paintings or sketches?  I've seen materials in-game, but I'm not seeing a perfect match in http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?crafts

[Old Kank]

I wish there was a more distinct difference in the social culture of the two cities.  Like somebody else said, things in Tuluk are just overblown.  I wish they were different.

These are just my observations, but:

There's just as much sorcerer-king love in Allanak as there is in Tuluk.  Last time I checked, the people in Allanak were brutally oppressed, but most players living outside the 'rinth are downright patriotic.

People in Allanak are just as "subtle" as they are in Tuluk, they just don't make as big a deal of it.  I would love to see more in-your-face brutality and open flaunting of power and actions.

Templars are treated with the same man-on-top deference in both cities.  Allanaki templars are just magickers of a different cloth, and it would be nice if things filtered up to templars through soldiers and nobles, rather than everything going straight to the top.

Lastly, not so much an observation as a RTW, but I wish the Allanaki-'rinth divide wasn't so severe.  The 'rinth was a big bowl of fun back when it was simply a lawless part of Allanak.

I've tried "being the change," but breaking the social norms just gets my characters in trouble.

[boog]

Nyr, is there a crafting skill that would support mastercrafted paintings or sketches?  I've seen materials in-game, but I'm not seeing a perfect match in http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?crafts

I thought it said somewhere you couldn't mastercraft works of art - like paintings, frescoes and the like. Maybe I'm just full of shit. But I thought I specifically remembered it. :<

[Twilight]

I've always thought the main difference was the appreciation of the common class.

Tuluki commoners appreciate art, songs, etc.

Alllanaki commoners appreciate the Arena, Pit and that thing in Meleth's Circle.

I tend to think of the Nak common class loving the bloodsports, torture, etc and having it be their "art".  Its like that guy that couldn't care for a museum, but loves his UFC and boxing.  Like, you know, martial "art".  Or the Romans, who loved a good show of blood.  Now, if only Nak had a vomitorium.

[Reiteration]

This is only complaint trend #650?

[Nyr]

That whole "master craft" thing isn't new or anything, though.  Newer than Bill Clinton's presidency?  Sure.  Older than Bush's second term?  Yes.

Nyr, is there a crafting skill that would support mastercrafted paintings or sketches?  I've seen materials in-game, but I'm not seeing a perfect match in http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?crafts

1.  Have a background of dabbling in painting/drawing/etc.  Helps to be part of a clan that does things like this officially, too, because then you can push to get stuff in-game (like statues, frescoes, paintings, etc).  I'd recommend Kadius, Tenneshi, Akai Sjir, or anyone that could read or write.
2.  Get at least one craft skill up to master crafting levels.  This would mean you'd have to be a merchant.  Better to choose something like stonecrafting or woodworking that have direct analogues to public beautification, but I can probably see how someone that is a mastercrafter in almost anything* would also perhaps have the talent to tediously create art.
3.  Submit an art mastercraft.  Follow the same rules for any mastercrafting.  If it's a statue, you need the materials.  If it's a painting, you need the materials.  If it's a fresco, you might need to get some additional permission from whomever owns the wall or ceiling.

*maybe not ropemaking or pickmaking

This is only complaint trend #650?

PS, if anyone can figure out what the title alludes to, I'll say something cool about you so that you can sig it in your profile (in or out of context).

[X-D]

I have started a rather large number of PCs in Allanak. I have been successful with many, outside of clans, going out as 0 hour hunters. I have done so when the area around nak was FAR FAR more deadly then it is today. It is a cakewalk NPC wise now days compared to when there was roving gith death squads, fireants, silt horrors routinely roving within a few rooms of the gates, Meks doing the same thing.

As for art, I see more PC created art in allanak then I do in Tuluk.

I agree that nak needs more goods available to merchant PCs, only because certain skills remain nearly impossible to branch in or around allanak. But, even that can be gotten around if one is enterprising enough.

As for NPC artists, I can think of at least four existing, more that don't do to IC events, bards, well, IC events dealt them a blow as well. Maybe spend more time talking to NPCs though, I've been surprised in the past doing that.

[brytta.leofa]

1.  
2.  
3.  

Perfect.  I will try this at some point.

[Erythil]

My experience in the South is that those who play music are halfways suspect and looked upon as possible northern spies.

Which is silly.  There's got to be non-Circle bards in the world.

Anyway, I think it'd be pretty awesome to play somebody from Voryek.  A noble house with ties, however small, in both cities, sounds like something just waiting for all kinds of delectable trouble.  Maybe I'll app that someday.

[Gimfalisette]

Anyway, I think it'd be pretty awesome to play somebody from Voryek.  A noble house with ties, however small, in both cities, sounds like something just waiting for all kinds of delectable trouble.  Maybe I'll app that someday.

Merchant house. Not noble house. Small point, but important one!

My experience in the South is that those who play music are halfways suspect and looked upon as possible northern spies.

...if they're from Tuluk, sure, or simply not Nakki enough. But I've seen plenty of Nakki bardic types over the years, and so long as they are southern, they're not treated that way.

[Is Friday]

Yeah, just don't sing about gay shit like "love". Sing about gruesome arena battles or something. People don't hate bards in 'nak, they hate lame bards.

[Gimfalisette]

Yeah, just don't sing about gay shit like "love". Sing about gruesome arena battles or something. People don't hate bards in 'nak, they hate lame bards.

I'm writing an Allanaki love song right this very minute. It's almost finished...I just have to figure out what rhymes with "backstab."

(Sappy true-love songs don't go over well in either city-state, by the way. But that doesn't mean "love" is an off-limits topic, it's just got to be properly Zalanthan in approach and attitude.)

[boog]

Yeah, just don't sing about gay shit like "love". Sing about gruesome arena battles or something. People don't hate bards in 'nak, they hate lame bards.

Or you should sing about tandu sausages.

[boog]

Yeah, just don't sing about gay shit like "love". Sing about gruesome arena battles or something. People don't hate bards in 'nak, they hate lame bards.

I'm writing an Allanaki love song right this very minute. It's almost finished...I just have to figure out what rhymes with "backstab."

(Sappy true-love songs don't go over well in either city-state, by the way. But that doesn't mean "love" is an off-limits topic, it's just got to be properly Zalanthan in approach and attitude.)

Jibjab. Hobag. Real drab.

[Kronus]

Artists in Allanak don't paint pretty paintings on canvas of duskhorn prancing against the setting sun.

They carve severed gith heads into the obisidian of a bad ass mother f**** sword, and then use it to chop the heads off of gith and call it "performance art".


Allanak has culture and art.  It's Mad Max culture and art.  It's a source of contrast between the two city-states.  Things would be dull if they were homogenized.

[Qeynos]

I find the concept of Tuluki subtlety to be a bit daft. It would work if this was a novel where the subtlety could be described and you would know what was going on beneath the surface, but in practice in a roleplaying environment, I find that it more often translates into boredom and the perception that nothing is happening. In Tuluk, everything is meant to be hush-hush and left out of sight, and to anyone not involved in whatever is being handled in this way, it might as well not have happened. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it sort of thing.

On the other hand, since that is so starkly against the instincts of many roleplayers, I also find that this tradition often isn't adhered to. People want to create stories, to share experiences, to be noticed. When playing in Tuluk, I witnessed a lot of what appeared to be conflict between what is right and what is natural. You've just done something really interesting and impressive, but it happens to be the sort of thing that, according to the documentation, should be swept under the rug and never talked of. Do you do that, following the "rules" and doing the right thing, or do you do what actually contributes to an interesting roleplaying environment (for more than the two or three people involved) and gives others something to care about? Since the latter is usually the natural thing for a roleplayer, it felt like the common conventions often had to be broken in order for the roleplaying environemt to not stagnate. You don't make a city's roleplay look appealing by enforcing secrecy and discretion, and I think it especially hurts those who aren't adept at weaving stories around themselves and getting their foot in the door of every plot in the vicinity. If you're a newer player, off-peak, or in a role that doesn't automatically get involved in plots, I can see how this might get really boring. It'll look and feel as if nothing is going on, and I also think the subtlety itself limits the development of many plots and interactions.

Allanak, however, feels like the place where nothing much changes simply because it has stayed the same for so long. I expect that this city hosts a greater proportion of the jaded veterans who value the status quo and prefer things the way they've always been. Allanak has the capacity for just about anything to happen, the elements needed for perpetual conflict and overt hardship and so on, it just isn't carried out very much. What it does offer is the ability for you to do things without being labeled a "disturber of the peace"; it only takes ambitious players to do so, and they wouldn't be working against the grain. You can do your thing and let everybody hear about it, you can bully and oppress and be assertive without having to also make sure nobody knows, thus allowing the players to create a vibrant and universally interesting roleplaying environment. It just needs to actually be done more.

[Kronus]

I find the concept of Tuluki subtlety to be a bit daft.

I have been under the impression that Tuluki value subtlety only as it applies to currying social favor (and when being a licensed assassin is involved).   No one appreciates an obsequious brownnose or obvious attempts to gain favor with showy gifts, and it's (according to the docs) expected that people increase their social standing without being blatant that it's what they're trying to do.  A noble might, for example, commission a small caravan of trade wagons to be shared amongst the free citizen merchants of the city in order to increase his standing with those merchants, but he'd announce that it was being done to strengthen the economic might of The Ivory City and to spread the splendor of the Sun King's civilization to the barbaric outlanders and that would make it okay with everyone (even if everyone privately understands what's actually going on).

Unless you can show me where it does, I'm reasonably sure that nowhere in the docs does it state that Tuluki are close lipped and don't enjoy bragging about their exploits or sharing the latest news.

[racurtne]

Only wanted to slip in on the comment about Nakkis being downright patriotic. They seem patriotic because if you're the only guy not shouting patriotic things you're likely to get killed/beaten/etc. I'm sure some are patriotic, but everyone else is basically frightened into it.

[Spartan]

The problem with Allanaki culture around music is that there is no precedence to rely on. From the documents, I take it that Allanak has a much more sophisticated and ordered music culture than Tuluk (which would be closer to 'tribal' music). It's like comparing Hollywood to Broadway. Except, there's almost a complete lack of Allanaki "Hollywood" apart from House Fale, which only ends up being jokesters and mockery of things.

That said, I for one will make an attempt at a uniquely 'nakki-flavored bard.

[jriley]

...a bunch of stuff...

I disagree.  I think the OP has as much right o express his opinions as anyone else.

...
...
Lastly, not so much an observation as a RTW, but I wish the Allanaki-'rinth divide wasn't so severe.  The 'rinth was a big bowl of fun back when it was simply a lawless part of Allanak.

I've tried "being the change," but breaking the social norms just gets my characters in trouble.

Yeah, several good points.  But I agree especially with the the last two.  I think the "be the change" concept applies to setting a good role-play example, but not necessarily to achieving desired changes in the world theme or game administration.  For example, if a group of players decide that PCs should be more racist towards elves, that's a fantastic opportunity for them to express themselves in game.  However if a group of players decide that it would be cool if there were more raiders in game, it's not necessarily their duty to drop everything that they're doing and try to hand-build a raider clan.  This is the sort of thing that should be negotiated out of game and with staff.  Creating game atmosphere is in large part a staff responsibility.

Oh yeah, and the Labryinth?  I'm glad to hear you express this view.  People tend to treat the Labyrinth as though it's part of a different planet than Allanak rather than treating it merely as a different neighborhood. 

I find the concept of Tuluki subtlety to be a bit daft. It would work if this was a novel where the subtlety could be described and you would know what was going on beneath the surface, but in practice in a roleplaying environment, I find that it more often translates into boredom and the perception that nothing is happening. In Tuluk, everything is meant to be hush-hush and left out of sight, and to anyone not involved in whatever is being handled in this way, it might as well not have happened. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it sort of thing.

I'm sorry that you don't like it.  Tell me, are you a fan at all of political intrigue?  Stalinist purges hold a certain allure for people who are fans of that period in history.  Tuluk is kind of like a big game of Texas hold 'em.

[Zoan]

I think a whole heap of people are outright patriotic in Allanak. This is a world where society as a whole has never considered rebellion, and the status quo is as it's always been to them, so they'd not see anything particularly 'wrong' with it (not to say they may think it right, but they're for the most part a simple, superstitious lot in Allanak and would not blame it on their God-King provider).

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

House Voryek is a minor Merchant House that deals primarily in art and antiquities. Based primarily out of the southern city-state of Allanak, they have also secured minor holdings within Tuluk as well. In addition to their art dealings, the Voryeki are also known to be fanatical historians.

Renowned for their entertainments and extravagant festivals, Fales are sociable, giddy creatures, experts in matters of style, food, wine and spice. ... The normal Fale reaction to any crisis situation is to throw a party and hope whatever it is either blows over or goes away. ... the Fales exert an uncommon amount of influence.

A key group in this developement was House Kadius, whose crafters' expertise allowed instruments to be more reliable, easy to use, higher quality, and possessing a purer tone. In the south much of the way music was shaped was attributed to House Fale, which often premiered some new musical styles or pieces at their lavish parties.

Voryek's been closed a long time, though. And Fale is currently closed.

[Malifaxis]

I find the concept of Tuluki subtlety to be a bit daft. It would work if this was a novel where the subtlety could be described and you would know what was going on beneath the surface, but in practice in a roleplaying environment, I find that it more often translates into boredom and the perception that nothing is happening. In Tuluk, everything is meant to be hush-hush and left out of sight, and to anyone not involved in whatever is being handled in this way, it might as well not have happened. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it sort of thing.

On the other hand, since that is so starkly against the instincts of many roleplayers, I also find that this tradition often isn't adhered to. People want to create stories, to share experiences, to be noticed. When playing in Tuluk, I witnessed a lot of what appeared to be conflict between what is right and what is natural. You've just done something really interesting and impressive, but it happens to be the sort of thing that, according to the documentation, should be swept under the rug and never talked of. Do you do that, following the "rules" and doing the right thing, or do you do what actually contributes to an interesting roleplaying environment (for more than the two or three people involved) and gives others something to care about? Since the latter is usually the natural thing for a roleplayer, it felt like the common conventions often had to be broken in order for the roleplaying environemt to not stagnate. You don't make a city's roleplay look appealing by enforcing secrecy and discretion, and I think it especially hurts those who aren't adept at weaving stories around themselves and getting their foot in the door of every plot in the vicinity. If you're a newer player, off-peak, or in a role that doesn't automatically get involved in plots, I can see how this might get really boring. It'll look and feel as if nothing is going on, and I also think the subtlety itself limits the development of many plots and interactions.

Allanak, however, feels like the place where nothing much changes simply because it has stayed the same for so long. I expect that this city hosts a greater proportion of the jaded veterans who value the status quo and prefer things the way they've always been. Allanak has the capacity for just about anything to happen, the elements needed for perpetual conflict and overt hardship and so on, it just isn't carried out very much. What it does offer is the ability for you to do things without being labeled a "disturber of the peace"; it only takes ambitious players to do so, and they wouldn't be working against the grain. You can do your thing and let everybody hear about it, you can bully and oppress and be assertive without having to also make sure nobody knows, thus allowing the players to create a vibrant and universally interesting roleplaying environment. It just needs to actually be done more.

AHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! 

[Qeynos]

AHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! 

Yes, you certainly add a lot to these forums. Shall we get out our penises and a ruler as well? That seems to be your general agenda wherever I've seen you post.

[Reiteration]

I find the concept of Tuluki subtlety to be a bit daft. It would work if this was a novel where the subtlety could be described and you would know what was going on beneath the surface, but in practice in a roleplaying environment, I find that it more often translates into boredom and the perception that nothing is happening. In Tuluk, everything is meant to be hush-hush and left out of sight, and to anyone not involved in whatever is being handled in this way, it might as well not have happened. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it sort of thing.

On the other hand, since that is so starkly against the instincts of many roleplayers, I also find that this tradition often isn't adhered to. People want to create stories, to share experiences, to be noticed. When playing in Tuluk, I witnessed a lot of what appeared to be conflict between what is right and what is natural. You've just done something really interesting and impressive, but it happens to be the sort of thing that, according to the documentation, should be swept under the rug and never talked of. Do you do that, following the "rules" and doing the right thing, or do you do what actually contributes to an interesting roleplaying environment (for more than the two or three people involved) and gives others something to care about? Since the latter is usually the natural thing for a roleplayer, it felt like the common conventions often had to be broken in order for the roleplaying environemt to not stagnate. You don't make a city's roleplay look appealing by enforcing secrecy and discretion, and I think it especially hurts those who aren't adept at weaving stories around themselves and getting their foot in the door of every plot in the vicinity. If you're a newer player, off-peak, or in a role that doesn't automatically get involved in plots, I can see how this might get really boring. It'll look and feel as if nothing is going on, and I also think the subtlety itself limits the development of many plots and interactions.

Allanak, however, feels like the place where nothing much changes simply because it has stayed the same for so long. I expect that this city hosts a greater proportion of the jaded veterans who value the status quo and prefer things the way they've always been. Allanak has the capacity for just about anything to happen, the elements needed for perpetual conflict and overt hardship and so on, it just isn't carried out very much. What it does offer is the ability for you to do things without being labeled a "disturber of the peace"; it only takes ambitious players to do so, and they wouldn't be working against the grain. You can do your thing and let everybody hear about it, you can bully and oppress and be assertive without having to also make sure nobody knows, thus allowing the players to create a vibrant and universally interesting roleplaying environment. It just needs to actually be done more.

AHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! 

>Types out laughing

[Malifaxis]

AHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! 

Yes, you certainly add a lot to these forums. Shall we get out our penises and a ruler as well? That seems to be your general agenda wherever I've seen you post.

Depends, will you post with this account or one of the 4 alts?

You're so damn cute.

I could go through your post and pick it apart point by point, but I actually have shit to do in real life.  Tuluki subtlety and Allanaki subtlety are both very real, and very well set in motion on both sides.  If you haven't experienced this, in both cities, then you really should. 

I highly advise you apply for the Jihaen role, if it is still open.  It will likely change your views, if you get it.

[Reiteration]

Both cities are horrible, go play in Luir's

INB4 the shit hits the fans.

[Qeynos]

I've never claimed that the subtlety isn't real. I said that I often find it to be detrimental to roleplay, and that some people disregard it for the sake of creating roleplay where there would otherwise have been none if one followed the expected cultural norms. To base an entire culture on the practice of making sure people don't know about anything out of the ordinary seems counterintuitive to a storytelling game, and I suspect that this is part of the reason why so many players deliberately refrain from playing in Tuluk, or give it shit for being a treehugging happyland where nothing bad happens (as far as they can tell). But then, seeing as you have so much shit to do that you only had time to type HAHAHAHAHA, I can see how you might have completely failed to see the point.

[Cutthroat]

House Voryek is a minor Merchant House that deals primarily in art and antiquities. Based primarily out of the southern city-state of Allanak, they have also secured minor holdings within Tuluk as well. In addition to their art dealings, the Voryeki are also known to be fanatical historians.

Renowned for their entertainments and extravagant festivals, Fales are sociable, giddy creatures, experts in matters of style, food, wine and spice. ... The normal Fale reaction to any crisis situation is to throw a party and hope whatever it is either blows over or goes away. ... the Fales exert an uncommon amount of influence.

A key group in this developement was House Kadius, whose crafters' expertise allowed instruments to be more reliable, easy to use, higher quality, and possessing a purer tone. In the south much of the way music was shaped was attributed to House Fale, which often premiered some new musical styles or pieces at their lavish parties.

Voryek's been closed a long time, though. And Fale is currently closed.

Yes, but my point is that there's a basis for art in Allanak. The OP is claiming that Allanak just doesn't have these things that provide a foundation to an artistic culture in Allanak. He's wrong because the basis exists virtually - whether it's acknowledged by players is another matter, and I think it should be, even if those clans are closed to players.

What I am saying is, if there is a place in Allanak for Voryek and Fale to exist, there is a place for an independent artist to exist - just like as Salarr exists, so do indy armor and weapon crafters, and as the Byn exists, there are independent mercenaries.

[Malifaxis]

I've never claimed that the subtlety isn't real. I said that I often find it to be detrimental to roleplay, and that some people disregard it for the sake of creating roleplay where there would otherwise have been none if one followed the expected cultural norms. To base an entire culture on the practice of making sure people don't know about anything out of the ordinary seems counterintuitive to a storytelling game, and I suspect that this is part of the reason why so many players deliberately refrain from playing in Tuluk, or give it shit for being a treehugging happyland where nothing bad happens (as far as they can tell). But then, seeing as you have so much shit to do that you only had time to type HAHAHAHAHA, I can see how you might have completely failed to see the point.

It may be a small part of the reason, but a large part is that everyone is always pissing on Tuluk in every thread on the goddamn GDB.

The north has an unbelievably active group of leader PCs right now, PCs who have stood the test of time, and who actively do everything they can to include newbies in day to day activities as well as ventures of a more adventurous sort.  The unfortunate thing is that since there's so much trash talk about Tuluk, fewer players go up there to experience it.

The last time I was in Allanak, which was not long ago, I couldn't swing my pathetically small dick without hitting 5 bynners, 4 mages, 3 half giants, 2 elves, and a fucking demon.  Did I meet a single non-byn leader PC?  No.  You know why?  They don't get out and about commonly... because that's the way Allanak rolls.  Most nobles are incredibly aloof, and hate being seen 'amongst the rabble.'  That to me, seems equally as counter intuitive as what you've stated, but no one mentions it, do they?

[wizturbo]

In my experiences there is definitely a palate for the arts in Allanak, but it's very strictly focused on the nobility, the templarate, and Tektolnes.  If you make art for the common person, it'll likely be viewed as subversive unless it highlights one of those three things, or greatly involve one of those three things in it's construction.

As for subtly, I somewhat agree that things being too subtle is boring for the common player who doesn't really get to see behind the scenes all that often.  But at the same time, it makes those rare times where you DO see behind the scenes that much more special and exciting.

As another random thought on the topic of Allanaki culture, I'm a bit disappointed to see what's happened to the gemmed in the city.  They are supposed to be oppressed, and looked down upon, and feared but I think it's become so extreme that they can't even socialize in the Gaj without risking death.  This makes no sense to me.  The gemmed might be scary, dirty magickers, but the fact of the matter is they are valuable pseudo-slaves to the Templarate.  An extremely valuable advantage in both military and economic matters for the city state of Allanak compared to the rest of the known world.  I realize that some events over the last RL year may have them viewed as more of a menace than normal, but having the pendulum sway back towards allowing them to be semi-functioning members of society again would be good for the city, good for the game, and most certainly good for the few players who take up such roles.

[wizturbo]

Did I meet a single non-byn leader PC?  No.  You know why?  They don't get out and about commonly... because that's the way Allanak rolls.  Most nobles are incredibly aloof, and hate being seen 'amongst the rabble.'  That to me, seems equally as counter intuitive as what you've stated, but no one mentions it, do they?

I view this as a facilities issue, to be honest.  Allanak has three bars, a lower class, a middle class and an upper class.  The sheer population of lower class tavern goers makes the lower class bar always more exciting from an OOC perspective than the other two...so...people of all social classes go there except the nobles.  The nobles cannot go there, they'd look like fools.  The middle class bar used to attract the bulk of the attention, and that was much better for the game because nobles could realistically go there and be "slumming it" without being totally out of character.

If more people went to the middle class bar, I think you'd have a chance to actually interact with and see noble leaders in the city...

[Cutthroat]

I've never claimed that the subtlety isn't real. I said that I often find it to be detrimental to roleplay, and that some people disregard it for the sake of creating roleplay where there would otherwise have been none if one followed the expected cultural norms. To base an entire culture on the practice of making sure people don't know about anything out of the ordinary seems counterintuitive to a storytelling game,

IMO, the "subtle culture" of Tuluk OOCly encourages players to get into clanned/patronage roleplay up north so they know what's going on. Or, in other words, play Tuluk for what it is. People that intentionally leave themselves out of the loop in Tuluk are missing out on a lot of what Tuluk's about. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think with the culture of "subtlety", there is still a lot that can be done to spread the word of your Tuluki's exploits there.

and I suspect that this is part of the reason why so many players deliberately refrain from playing in Tuluk, or give it shit for being a treehugging happyland where nothing bad happens (as far as they can tell).

Perhaps part of the reason is this misunderstanding that Tuluki storytelling and roleplay has to be very similar to Allanaki storytelling and roleplay. It's not. I suspect it's mainly that and the fact that out of the two cities, Tuluk's historically been the kicked dog of the GDB.

[jhunter]

I love both for what they are.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't think Tuluk sucks. However, I don't appreciate it, so I don't play there.

I love Allanak - with all of my heart.

That said, both of the cities sort of suck, for one reason alone. There is too much player dilution. We need one city, period. I'd rather it be Allanak, but it's sort of irrelevant to the problem. One might argue against such a statement, and mention how different the two places are and how they have their place and so on, and you're right. But the fact remains.

One city, with the same number of players as currently play in both cities, would never sleep.

[Salt Merchant]

I've always figured Allanak would have some patrons of fine quality stone work.

It would be cool to see a few more pieces appear around the city, like that snarling face that is across from one of the entrances to the bazaar. Whoever wrote that had a fit of enviable creativity. Harsh stonework to go with a harsh city environment.

But I suppose there's little incentive to create when an active volcano is looming over the outer wall.

Tuluk.. not so much.

[boog]

I don't think Tuluk sucks. However, I don't appreciate it, so I don't play there.

I love Allanak - with all of my heart.

That said, both of the cities sort of suck, for one reason alone. There is too much player dilution. We need one city, period. I'd rather it be Allanak, but it's sort of irrelevant to the problem. One might argue against such a statement, and mention how different the two places are and how they have their place and so on, and you're right. But the fact remains.

One city, with the same number of players as currently play in both cities, would never sleep.

Or just less spots to hang at.

[Aaron Goulet]

I don't think Tuluk sucks. However, I don't appreciate it, so I don't play there.

I love Allanak - with all of my heart.

That said, both of the cities sort of suck, for one reason alone. There is too much player dilution. We need one city, period. I'd rather it be Allanak, but it's sort of irrelevant to the problem. One might argue against such a statement, and mention how different the two places are and how they have their place and so on, and you're right. But the fact remains.

One city, with the same number of players as currently play in both cities, would never sleep.

Or just less spots to hang at.

I believe this was discussed quite a while ago, but it went unappreciated by the playerbase (read: people didn't like the idea).  I, personally, haven't had much of a hard time getting interaction lately, but I remember playing off-peak and wondering where those other 13 players were...

[Gimfalisette]

One city, with the same number of players as currently play in both cities, would never sleep.

You know what would be even better than one city?

TWICE THE FUCKING PLAYERS.

Everyone go recruit some friends. Bitches.

(Do it or I'll post data! I swear I will!)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't think Tuluk sucks. However, I don't appreciate it, so I don't play there.

I love Allanak - with all of my heart.

That said, both of the cities sort of suck, for one reason alone. There is too much player dilution. We need one city, period. I'd rather it be Allanak, but it's sort of irrelevant to the problem. One might argue against such a statement, and mention how different the two places are and how they have their place and so on, and you're right. But the fact remains.

One city, with the same number of players as currently play in both cities, would never sleep.

Or just less spots to hang at.

I wouldn't reduce the number of spots to hang at. If a city is to be fully fleshed out, there needs to be numerous choices. But if the current population of both cities were condensed into one city, the dynamics of things would change completely. Suddenly, noble players would never be bored (well, relative to now, of course), and the bars would always seem full. All of the bars.

Add inter-House conflict that was allowed to escalate into mini wars, provided nobody got caught, and not only would the conflict be in the game, and deep too, but the social players, who're the ones who tend to play city-based characters, would be elated, once they got over the fact that their favorite city might have been toasted or washed away.

For the concept of one major city, I would even play in Tuluk, and I have not done that in ... six or seven years.

[Cutthroat]

I've always figured Allanak would have some patrons of fine quality stone work.

It would be cool to see a few more pieces appear around the city, like that snarling face that is across from one of the entrances to the bazaar. Whoever wrote that had a fit of enviable creativity. Harsh stonework to go with a harsh city environment.

But I suppose there's little incentive to create when an active volcano is looming over the outer wall.

Tuluk.. not so much.

You know that's very possible to make happen as a PC (and likely has been possible for years), right? The volcano just makes the goal slightly more of a challenge to reach. Good goals are challenging.

[Qzzrbl]

I've always figured Allanak would have some patrons of fine quality stone work.

It would be cool to see a few more pieces appear around the city, like that snarling face that is across from one of the entrances to the bazaar. Whoever wrote that had a fit of enviable creativity. Harsh stonework to go with a harsh city environment.

But I suppose there's little incentive to create when an active volcano is looming over the outer wall.

Tuluk.. not so much.

You know that's very possible to make happen as a PC (and likely has been possible for years), right? The volcano just makes the goal slightly more of a challenge to reach. Good goals are challenging.

Carve the volcano into a giant statue of Tektolnes, complete with lava flowing and spewing out the mouth-- PUT THAT HUNK OF STEEL AT THE GATES TO SHAAAAME!

[Cutthroat]

I don't think Tuluk sucks. However, I don't appreciate it, so I don't play there.

I love Allanak - with all of my heart.

That said, both of the cities sort of suck, for one reason alone. There is too much player dilution. We need one city, period. I'd rather it be Allanak, but it's sort of irrelevant to the problem. One might argue against such a statement, and mention how different the two places are and how they have their place and so on, and you're right. But the fact remains.

One city, with the same number of players as currently play in both cities, would never sleep.

Or just less spots to hang at.

I wouldn't reduce the number of spots to hang at. If a city is to be fully fleshed out, there needs to be numerous choices. But if the current population of both cities were condensed into one city, the dynamics of things would change completely. Suddenly, noble players would never be bored (well, relative to now, of course), and the bars would always seem full. All of the bars.

Add inter-House conflict that was allowed to escalate into mini wars, provided nobody got caught, and not only would the conflict be in the game, and deep too, but the social players, who're the ones who tend to play city-based characters, would be elated, once they got over the fact that their favorite city might have been toasted or washed away.

For the concept of one major city, I would even play in Tuluk, and I have not done that in ... six or seven years.

I much prefer recruiting new players to fill out the cities over eliminating a city (although that idea certainly has merit), and here's why.

1) The game isn't just Tuluk and Allanak. If you take one out, the remaining city won't absorb 100% of the destroyed city's usual players. The tribes, Luir's, Red Storm, etc. will take their share of players and the rest will go into the remaining city. I'm no Data Queen, but I would imagine that killing one city will encourage staff to raise the caps on various tribes' players, and that the benefit the remaining city will see will be limited.
2) You can't win when you're the one picking a city that survives. Staff pick City X to go, and I guarantee you there will be bitching and moaning about staff's decision from some person or other on the GDB. (This point actually makes a good case for a PC-led effort to destroy a city. Good luck with that.)

I think if the playerbase's spread over the cities is a problem it's solved better by recruiting new players to add to the playerbase rather than moving them around. It seems like actually fixing the problem, rather than putting duct tape over it. I think that's a good effort to focus our collective brain-power into, perhaps in another thread on the GDB sometime.

[Qzzrbl]

Blow up Red Storm.

Leave spice deposits.

[lordcooper]

Wow, this thread has gone off topic.  Blow up a city state != Lack of staff support regarding arty farty stuff.

Now, to compound the issue, app a dwarf.  Focus = Tunnel lava from volcano to Allanak.

[brytta.leofa]

If Allanak occupied Tuluk again and then got destroyed, we could have have northern and southern culture together in one madd roilin' city.

I'm only just saying.

[Booya]

I'd like to complain about different timezones.

It hasn't helped.

[lordcooper]

I'd like to complain about different timezones.

It hasn't helped.

Hell yeah, peak time is now being moved to 5 - 12 GMT.

DEAL WITH IT

[Marshmellow]

...a bunch of stuff...

I disagree.  I think the OP has as much right o express his opinions as anyone else.

Whoever said noone was entitled to an opinion?  I was simply expressing my opinion about how the OP was mistaken in some of the assumptions that lead to the opinion held, just as everyone else has been doing when they disagreed with someone.  It's all quite civil and in the interest of improving the game, either directly or by helping fellow players to understand something in a different way and perhaps a better one.

This whole thread came about because someone complained that Tuluk gets all the love because of a bunch of things that others think aren't good examples of 'Nak getting ignored/snubbed/shit on.

[number13]

One city, with the same number of players as currently play in both cities, would never sleep.

You know what would be even better than one city?

TWICE THE FUCKING PLAYERS.

You know how you get twice the fucking players?  Half the fucking cities.

More possibly of interaction right out of the gate, less chance of choosing the 'wrong' (currently unpopular) city = more retention of first time players.   And it also means more concentrated staff attention, more possibly of encountering PC plots, which could translate to more retention of veteran players.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Starts in Tuluk and walks to Nak

[Flawed]

Some of us would rather quit Arm then be stuck hugging trees in Tuluk.

Some just can't face sipping tea in Allanak.

More choices ftw!

[Marshmellow]

Half the cities does not get you twice the players.  It just gets twice the players in one location but half the locations... 1/2 * 2 = 1.

[jstorrie]

Wow, this thread has gone off topic.  Blow up a city state != Lack of staff support regarding arty farty stuff.

Now, to compound the issue, app a dwarf.  Focus = Tunnel lava from volcano to Allanak.

OMG ARMAGEDDON DWARF FORTRESS

[Ampere]

Half the cities does not get you twice the players.  It just gets twice the players in one location but half the locations... 1/2 * 2 = 1.

Thank you.

[brytta.leofa]

Half the cities does not get you twice the players.  It just gets twice the players in one location but half the locations... 1/2 * 2 = 1.

That's not what he's saying.  He's saying that we would retain more new players if the existing playerbase were more concentrated.

[Gimfalisette]

Half the cities does not get you twice the players.  It just gets twice the players in one location but half the locations... 1/2 * 2 = 1.

That's not what he's saying.  He's saying that we would retain more new players if the existing playerbase were more concentrated.

I refute all speculation which is not based on actual data, research, or other empirical evidence. He believes we would, but that doesn't make it true. I believe that having only one city, and thus significantly limiting player choice, would actually lead to a reduction in the playerbase. So there.

[Marshmellow]

Interpreting data!  Yay!

[RogueGunslinger]

What we need is a good balance. I think we're close to that right now, but there's still a problem where one place is bumpin' and the other is just okay, in terms of playerbase.


You want my opinion? Get rid of Red Storm, and only allow 1 human, and elf,  tribe to be open at a time.

[number13]

I refute all speculation which is not based on actual data, research, or other empirical evidence. He believes we would, but that doesn't make it true. I believe that having only one city, and thus significantly limiting player choice, would actually lead to a reduction in the playerbase. So there.

By that logic, dredging up Stienal and reopening all the clans would increase the playerbase.  I think we can be pretty sure that's just not true.

Anecdotally, Atonement RPI's alpha had about half of Armageddon's player base, but because the environment was so drastically constrained it always seemed more full.  It's off-peak about about the same size as Armageddon's.  You could log in at any hour and there's be interaction.  However, the lack of Stuff To Do outside of RPTs was a problem.  There wasn't much to explore.

There's a sweet spot between Armageddon and Atonement's Alpha.  Actually, I think Atonement's Beta (which is set to occur in a city with a surrounding wilderness) might hit that sweet spot. Personally I'd prefer to waste time in Arm's harsh low-fantasy desert than Atonement's sort of goofy sci-fi setting, but having experienced an RPI where I didn't have to roam around a hundred rooms looking for that one other PC who was logged in my area was so nice -- it took me months of no Atonement before I could stomach coming back.

[boog]

There was plenty to explore in Atonement. Maybe you just weren't looking hard enough? :/

[Nyr]

Looks like we're done here.