Complaint trend #650 -- Allanak (or Tuluk) sucks

[DustMight]

Just to be clear, I'm not a hate machine - it's really that I love Allanak and want to see a real art/culture thing there.  I desperately want to have that happen but for - I dunno - 8 years (skip my first few of playing) I have been unable to get it done and have personally experienced a lack of support from the immortals in creating and supporting such a thing.

(No judgement on staff - I have no idea what your priorities are and don't expect them to match mine, clearly you've done a good job not following my lead. LOL)

I do have a special app in place and now I wish I had apped him as a master-crafter who could paint/draw like Rembrandt and if he does get approved and is able to create master works of art for Allanak, then I'll eat vestric.  If he is unable to do it, then I'll spew my northern hate again. 

Didn't someone say they wanted a war??

[Gimfalisette]

Just to be clear, I'm not a hate machine - it's really that I love Allanak and want to see a real art/culture thing there.  I desperately want to have that happen but for - I dunno - 8 years (skip my first few of playing) I have been unable to get it done and have personally experienced a lack of support from the immortals in creating and supporting such a thing.

Hey, I love Allanak too. I don't think you're a hate machine. But I think your frustration is misplaced. I think now that we have player-driven, it's a perfect time to be the change you want to see. I think your PC is going to need to live a long time, master some related coded skills, make a lot of wealthy contacts, and all that good stuff. But if you can do that, then I think you're golden to make some serious art for Nak.

I've done a little bit of Nakki art...my militia Sergeant composed some songs that were meant to portray the feel of Allanak. But I'd love to see more of all kinds of art for Allanak. (My whine about this? My PCs just live too damn long, so any Allanaki PC bard/artist concept I may want to play is going to be a long time in coming.)

[Marshmellow]

You sound like it, though, not to mention that you sound like you were criticizing staff, DustMight.  Let's take a quick look at some of your issues, shall we?

1, 'Nak has no IMM support for art or culture?  Wow, that sounds like a complaint/criticism because they made the world varied and not uniform.  I think this complaint is pointless.

2, Unrealistically few types of goods?  You haven't shopped the entirety of 'Nak if you think Tuluk has so many more shops than it does.  There are some types of gear that you don't get a huge selection to pick from, but they're somewhat generic items anyway.  You want something special, find someone that makes/sells something special and interact with your fellow players.

3, Can't hunt as a newb?  Incorrect.  I notice again that you're not trying to solve this in game, because we go back to the world not being uniform.  Different tactics or strategies to accomplish the same thing in different environments?  Tragic, you seem to say.  I think it's awesome.

4, You're wrong.  You just haven't found them yet.

5, Again we go back to variation.  Tuluki's are high on art and 'Nakkis aren't.  It's culture.  You don't like it, play elsewhere in the game and stop making it out to be some huge and horrible thing.

Yeah, you sound like you're bitching and criticizing all for all sorts of frivolous and inane reasons.  Oh, and you give the benefit of the doubt but call 'em like you see 'em?  This looks more like calling 'em like you see 'em, jumping to conclusions and giving nobody the benefit of the doubt.  Sorry.

[DustMight]

Marsh:

1. 'nak does not have any imm supported art or culture - that is an observation of fact.

2. I didn't say there were not solutions to lack of goods in 'nak - though it can be damn hard to find a merchant pc - just that goods are far easier to come by in Tuluk.

3. I challenge you as a 0 day newbie to go out and hunt in 'nak and see how far you get.  Now try it in Tuluk.  Again, statement of fact.  In fact some GMH bring all their new hunters north before letting them hunt south.

4.  I have played in 'nak almost exclusively for many years and only recently started a few characters in Tuluk (to gain a fair perspective).  Sitting around the Firestorm and tons of GMHers come waltzing in - not so with the Gaj or the Barrel, er Red's.

5.  No culture (that I can think of) is bereft of art and culture.  It is unrealistic and could change.  Wanting change, Marshmellow, is not a bad thing.  Pointing out things that I think need change is also not a bad thing - the "love it or leave it" philosophy is lame.

As I asked Gim, I'll ask you - I've pointed out a few facts (notably #1) and am waiting for someone to prove me wrong with fact (I'm willing to change my mind).  There was the Atrium, laid low for some reason I don't know.  There are no NPC artists, there are no NPC bards, no artist guilds, nothing.  Again, instead of just mindlessly saying "He's all hatin' and he's wrong" SHOW me where I'm wrong.

[Nyr]

I made this thread to consolidate this latest trend of complaining and get it out of the Random Armageddon Thoughts thread.

It'll stay open a while before it'll be locked.  Enjoy.

[Marshmellow]

Allanak is not devoid of art.  It's just harder.  As Nyr pointed out, if you want to make items, you must be a mastercrafter.  Not all art requires items.  Just because there aren't entire sections of the culture set aside for art doesn't mean there is no art.

[Cutthroat]

House Voryek is a minor Merchant House that deals primarily in art and antiquities. Based primarily out of the southern city-state of Allanak, they have also secured minor holdings within Tuluk as well. In addition to their art dealings, the Voryeki are also known to be fanatical historians.

Renowned for their entertainments and extravagant festivals, Fales are sociable, giddy creatures, experts in matters of style, food, wine and spice. ... The normal Fale reaction to any crisis situation is to throw a party and hope whatever it is either blows over or goes away. ... the Fales exert an uncommon amount of influence.

A key group in this developement was House Kadius, whose crafters' expertise allowed instruments to be more reliable, easy to use, higher quality, and possessing a purer tone. In the south much of the way music was shaped was attributed to House Fale, which often premiered some new musical styles or pieces at their lavish parties.

The documentation supports the arts in the south. There were/are NPCs in Allanak that offer artistic things like paintings and crafts. There are statues, there are complex structures. There have been several PC bards in Allanak, especially when House Fale was open. I think that a PC that is art-inclined in Allanak is definitely viable. Maybe you need to think about what kind of art would be appreciated in Allanak, and how that would differ from Tuluk and other places.

[Nyr]

Marsh:

1. 'nak does not have any imm supported art or culture - that is an observation of fact.

No, it's an opinion stated as an observation of fact.  The facts:  Allanak has ample opportunity for existing staff-supported clans and non-clans to submit and achieve works of art in-game.

2. I didn't say there were not solutions to lack of goods in 'nak - though it can be damn hard to find a merchant pc - just that goods are far easier to come by in Tuluk.

Playerbase wants, needs, and playing styles fluctuate.  I remember many times that there were no merchant PCs in Tuluk.  Try harder.

3. I challenge you as a 0 day newbie to go out and hunt in 'nak and see how far you get.  Now try it in Tuluk.  Again, statement of fact.  In fact some GMH bring all their new hunters north before letting them hunt south.

This is also not a statement of fact, but your opinion presented as one.  The facts:  We have added new creatures in the southlands (no, not right up against Allanak city proper, you may have to search some).  We have made one area near Tuluk absolutely batshit insane for hunters (ie, good luck and try not to die).  Could there be more easy shit near Allanak to hunt?  Sure.  I don't think you can deny that increase in difficulty near Tuluk does even out the playing field, making the area much less "easy mode" than it used to be.

4.  I have played in 'nak almost exclusively for many years and only recently started a few characters in Tuluk (to gain a fair perspective).  Sitting around the Firestorm and tons of GMHers come waltzing in - not so with the Gaj or the Barrel, er Red's.

No comment, I don't see how one anecdote means anything.  An anecdote can't prove anything except that, yes, at the time you played or are playing, you are seeing increased activity in one area of the game.

5.  No culture (that I can think of) is bereft of art and culture.  It is unrealistic and could change.  Wanting change, Marshmellow, is not a bad thing.  Pointing out things that I think need change is also not a bad thing - the "love it or leave it" philosophy is lame.

And no legitimate argument can be bereft of reason.  You have been tooting this horn for at least a year or two and the opportunity is there for players to input change IC or to work with their staff.  Time to put the vuvuzela down and work on some art.

As I asked Gim, I'll ask you - I've pointed out a few facts (notably #1) and am waiting for someone to prove me wrong with fact (I'm willing to change my mind).  There was the Atrium, laid low for some reason I don't know.  There are no NPC artists, there are no NPC bards, no artist guilds, nothing.  Again, instead of just mindlessly saying "He's all hatin' and he's wrong" SHOW me where I'm wrong.

tatooists are not artists?
art supply NPCs are not artists?
merchant guilds are not artists?
people can't take the time necessary to get in good with House Borsail, work for them for years, then leave to work on a venture that is an independent clan with some official noble backing, working on that for years too?  Well, probably not, actually.  Armageddon is haaard.

There, I proved you wrong.  Now go out there and do something.

edited to fix a line that wasn't completed, session timed out

[Nyr]

PS, if anyone can figure out what the title alludes to, I'll say something cool about you so that you can sig it in your profile (in or out of context).

[DustMight]

And no legitimate argument can be bereft of reason.  You have been tooting this horn for at least a year or two and the opportunity is there for players to input change IC or to work with their staff.  Time to put the vuvuzela down and work on some art.

Longer than a year or two, actually.  For years with many breaks in between as I give up.

Things may be freer now with the whole "master craft" thing in place.

I have a special app in queue that will do just that, Nyr.  I look forward to playing that character.

[brytta.leofa]

Nyr, is there a crafting skill that would support mastercrafted paintings or sketches?  I've seen materials in-game, but I'm not seeing a perfect match in http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?crafts

[Old Kank]

I wish there was a more distinct difference in the social culture of the two cities.  Like somebody else said, things in Tuluk are just overblown.  I wish they were different.

These are just my observations, but:

There's just as much sorcerer-king love in Allanak as there is in Tuluk.  Last time I checked, the people in Allanak were brutally oppressed, but most players living outside the 'rinth are downright patriotic.

People in Allanak are just as "subtle" as they are in Tuluk, they just don't make as big a deal of it.  I would love to see more in-your-face brutality and open flaunting of power and actions.

Templars are treated with the same man-on-top deference in both cities.  Allanaki templars are just magickers of a different cloth, and it would be nice if things filtered up to templars through soldiers and nobles, rather than everything going straight to the top.

Lastly, not so much an observation as a RTW, but I wish the Allanaki-'rinth divide wasn't so severe.  The 'rinth was a big bowl of fun back when it was simply a lawless part of Allanak.

I've tried "being the change," but breaking the social norms just gets my characters in trouble.

[boog]

Nyr, is there a crafting skill that would support mastercrafted paintings or sketches?  I've seen materials in-game, but I'm not seeing a perfect match in http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?crafts

I thought it said somewhere you couldn't mastercraft works of art - like paintings, frescoes and the like. Maybe I'm just full of shit. But I thought I specifically remembered it. :<

[Twilight]

I've always thought the main difference was the appreciation of the common class.

Tuluki commoners appreciate art, songs, etc.

Alllanaki commoners appreciate the Arena, Pit and that thing in Meleth's Circle.

I tend to think of the Nak common class loving the bloodsports, torture, etc and having it be their "art".  Its like that guy that couldn't care for a museum, but loves his UFC and boxing.  Like, you know, martial "art".  Or the Romans, who loved a good show of blood.  Now, if only Nak had a vomitorium.

[Reiteration]

This is only complaint trend #650?

[Nyr]

That whole "master craft" thing isn't new or anything, though.  Newer than Bill Clinton's presidency?  Sure.  Older than Bush's second term?  Yes.

Nyr, is there a crafting skill that would support mastercrafted paintings or sketches?  I've seen materials in-game, but I'm not seeing a perfect match in http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?crafts

1.  Have a background of dabbling in painting/drawing/etc.  Helps to be part of a clan that does things like this officially, too, because then you can push to get stuff in-game (like statues, frescoes, paintings, etc).  I'd recommend Kadius, Tenneshi, Akai Sjir, or anyone that could read or write.
2.  Get at least one craft skill up to master crafting levels.  This would mean you'd have to be a merchant.  Better to choose something like stonecrafting or woodworking that have direct analogues to public beautification, but I can probably see how someone that is a mastercrafter in almost anything* would also perhaps have the talent to tediously create art.
3.  Submit an art mastercraft.  Follow the same rules for any mastercrafting.  If it's a statue, you need the materials.  If it's a painting, you need the materials.  If it's a fresco, you might need to get some additional permission from whomever owns the wall or ceiling.

*maybe not ropemaking or pickmaking

This is only complaint trend #650?

PS, if anyone can figure out what the title alludes to, I'll say something cool about you so that you can sig it in your profile (in or out of context).

[X-D]

I have started a rather large number of PCs in Allanak. I have been successful with many, outside of clans, going out as 0 hour hunters. I have done so when the area around nak was FAR FAR more deadly then it is today. It is a cakewalk NPC wise now days compared to when there was roving gith death squads, fireants, silt horrors routinely roving within a few rooms of the gates, Meks doing the same thing.

As for art, I see more PC created art in allanak then I do in Tuluk.

I agree that nak needs more goods available to merchant PCs, only because certain skills remain nearly impossible to branch in or around allanak. But, even that can be gotten around if one is enterprising enough.

As for NPC artists, I can think of at least four existing, more that don't do to IC events, bards, well, IC events dealt them a blow as well. Maybe spend more time talking to NPCs though, I've been surprised in the past doing that.

[brytta.leofa]

1.  
2.  
3.  

Perfect.  I will try this at some point.

[Erythil]

My experience in the South is that those who play music are halfways suspect and looked upon as possible northern spies.

Which is silly.  There's got to be non-Circle bards in the world.

Anyway, I think it'd be pretty awesome to play somebody from Voryek.  A noble house with ties, however small, in both cities, sounds like something just waiting for all kinds of delectable trouble.  Maybe I'll app that someday.

[Gimfalisette]

Anyway, I think it'd be pretty awesome to play somebody from Voryek.  A noble house with ties, however small, in both cities, sounds like something just waiting for all kinds of delectable trouble.  Maybe I'll app that someday.

Merchant house. Not noble house. Small point, but important one!

My experience in the South is that those who play music are halfways suspect and looked upon as possible northern spies.

...if they're from Tuluk, sure, or simply not Nakki enough. But I've seen plenty of Nakki bardic types over the years, and so long as they are southern, they're not treated that way.

[Is Friday]

Yeah, just don't sing about gay shit like "love". Sing about gruesome arena battles or something. People don't hate bards in 'nak, they hate lame bards.

[Gimfalisette]

Yeah, just don't sing about gay shit like "love". Sing about gruesome arena battles or something. People don't hate bards in 'nak, they hate lame bards.

I'm writing an Allanaki love song right this very minute. It's almost finished...I just have to figure out what rhymes with "backstab."

(Sappy true-love songs don't go over well in either city-state, by the way. But that doesn't mean "love" is an off-limits topic, it's just got to be properly Zalanthan in approach and attitude.)

[boog]

Yeah, just don't sing about gay shit like "love". Sing about gruesome arena battles or something. People don't hate bards in 'nak, they hate lame bards.

Or you should sing about tandu sausages.

[boog]

Yeah, just don't sing about gay shit like "love". Sing about gruesome arena battles or something. People don't hate bards in 'nak, they hate lame bards.

I'm writing an Allanaki love song right this very minute. It's almost finished...I just have to figure out what rhymes with "backstab."

(Sappy true-love songs don't go over well in either city-state, by the way. But that doesn't mean "love" is an off-limits topic, it's just got to be properly Zalanthan in approach and attitude.)

Jibjab. Hobag. Real drab.

[Kronus]

Artists in Allanak don't paint pretty paintings on canvas of duskhorn prancing against the setting sun.

They carve severed gith heads into the obisidian of a bad ass mother f**** sword, and then use it to chop the heads off of gith and call it "performance art".


Allanak has culture and art.  It's Mad Max culture and art.  It's a source of contrast between the two city-states.  Things would be dull if they were homogenized.