Wagon Vulnerability

[roughneck]

It was mentioned in the other thread that wagons are nigh invincible and it can be boring riding in one because while you may jump out to kill carru or gith along the way, there's no real need to.  I think it's worth talking about how to make them a little more vulnerable because it would make for a lot more fun for the people piloting/defending them as well as create more opportunities for mercenary groups like the byn and would-be raiders.  In my opinion, no place should be as safe as wagons are on the sands of Zalanthas (unless you have someone who's shitty at pilot).

A couple of ideas I have:

1.  No more NPC guards!  Hire the byn to do it or hire your own guards.  This makes everything a little more uncertain, involves more pc's and gives pc raiders some encouragement that it's possible and even if they lose, will be more fun and interesting then getting pwnd by an NPC.

2.  Slow them down.  Unless it's a courier wagon or something make those big, lumbering argossies lumber along slowly.

3.  Big creatures which can attack and damage a wagon the same way you can a tent.  An argossy shouldn't outrun a mek and if the mek catches up, you better have a crew that can handle it or it may just beat the fuck out of that big wooden box rolling through his 'hood.

4.  It's silly that you can't stick a spear in the spokes of the front wheel and make a wagon donkey-kick it's occupants forward out of their seats.

Maybe I'm just out to lunch and maybe it's such a minor issue it doesn't really matter.

EDIT - 5.  Chance of breakdown!  Wooden wheels would break on stony ground or torque and break in deep sand very regularly.  Strand those wagon-riding mfers in the red desert.

[Kiara]

Yes to numbers 1, 3 and maybe 4.

No to number 2: Wagon rides are already boring enough.

[Fathi]

#1: At least one clan already does this, which I thought was cool. I really don't see why some wagons have like 5-6 NPCs per room of them, though, that baffles the mind and takes all the fun out of things.

#2: I'm iffy on this. It makes sense, yes, but wagons are already damn slow. I don't think an argosy can currently outrun a mek, for what it's worth.

#3: I like this.

#4: We should be able to put Templar trading cards in the spokes, too. Totally dig.

[Sam]

I say make the pilot vulnerable. They should be sitting on top or out in the open on these things.
I say make most of the wagons actual platforms that move, instead of being in a vault. You would see everyone riding in the first room of the wagon, which is usually the loading zone, or on top. Example:

Instead of:
Look east
A medium sized argssy sits here.
A lone skinny Kadian runs beside the wagon, cursing the riders.

You would see all the NPCs and PCs on the platform.
The rigid, twitching Kadian is here, pilotting, on an argosy.
The buff, squirelly dwarf is here, half asleep, on an argosy.
The scarred, Mudsex crafter is here, alert to every movement, on an argosy.
The so on is soing on, on an argosy.
A lone skinny Kadian runs beside the wagon, cursing the riders.

To the east, a medium sized argosy moves south, pilotted by the rigid, twitching Kadian.
Tot he east, a lone skinny Kadian follows the wagon.

South
You move south.

shoot kadian east

You release the arrow, watching it as it impales a Kadian pilot through the shoulder and neck.

The argosy stops moving.

[Kiara]

Hell yes, please make pilots vulnerable.

More raids please.

[Synthesis]

Who farking cares?

There aren't enough raiders in the game at any point in time to make destroying a wagon a reasonable event, unless you get the staff to animate some for you, which they're probably not going to do, because coding up a new wagon is a huge pain in the ass relative to the few chuckles people will get out of destroying the old one.

And seriously, wtf are you going to do after destroying the wagon?  HA HA we destroyed your wagon! We are teh awexome! Okay, shit...my shitty elf strength won't let me carry more than a couple more items so...let's see...I'll take that nice sword there and...cool, we need a chest for the storeroom, so I'll take that, too. Just let me dump it out real quick.

This sort of crap might be justified for an RPT, and if it's an RPT, you should have plenty of staff around to help you out with it.  The ability to engage in random assaults on wagons for the lulz just isn't going to happen.

[Delstro]

Well, if the pilot is vulnerable, you wouldn't have to completely destroy a wagon to stop the bitch from moving.There are no wagon raiders now, because wagons are impractical to raid.

If the pilot was more vulnerable:
The Bynn and others would be used more.
There would be turnover among House Family Members, which may make them more exciting.
It would make raiders more practical, since they would be able to steal a few items instead of destroyign the entire wagon.

Sounds like a positive change to me.

[Kiara]

Who farking cares?

Obviously we do because we're contributing to the thread in a positive manner.

If all you're going to do is take a giant steaming dump on everyone else in every single thread, why bother posting? No one likes it.

[Lizzie]

A problem with the "no NPC guards" thing, is that wagon pilot players already have pretty strict restrictions. Most of the clans that have wagons require a minimum of guards, and the staff allows for at least some of them to be NPCs. If it weren't for that, most wagons would never leave the wagonyard.

If you're taking a huge-ass argosy, ONE guard won't be enough. FOUR guards probably isn't enough either..so how about six. Except, try and get six people together when it's convenient for YOU - on a round-trip...going down might not be a problem but coming back? Well Amos can't play on Sundays, and Malik can play but he has to log out 20 minutes after the scheduled time. Talia can't show up til an hour later..

So once again you're stuck in red storm for a RL month because you can't find 6 PCs who can all log in at the same time and be available for the same 2-hour stand-around staring out the wagonramp wishing a staff member would animate a wayward tembo.

Instead, they allow for NPC guards. This gives the wagoneer more of an opportunity to actually use the wagon. So now instead of 6 PCs, it's 6 guards, and at least 2 of them have to be PCs. There are 4 NPC guards on the wagon, plus the wagoneer is probably of a rank where he can take an assigned personal NPC guard.

Now they have plenty of coverage, and they don't have to spend months in OOC deliberations just trying to come up with a 2-hour window in which to travel by wagon from point A to point B and back.

[Kiara]

You act as if the game is lacking in terms of players.

That's hardly an issue.

It's not difficult to get six players or more together for an rpt.

[Synthesis]

Who farking cares?

Obviously we do because we're contributing to the thread in a positive manner.

If all you're going to do is take a giant steaming dump on everyone else in every single thread, why bother posting? No one likes it.

Because when an idea is stupid, someone should probably point it out before people get carried away.

I should probably amend that to say that the idea is stupid given the current game environment.  If certain factors changed (e.g. average # players logged in, ease of replacing wagons improved), it might be a decent suggestion, at best. 

Even then, the idea of GMH wagons/argosies regularly being savaged is just a little silly.  If circumstances changed, they would simply increase the number of guards they used, and wagons would be just as safe as they are now.  Arms race, you know.

[Kiara]

I'm for whatever promotes conflict.

This helps, in my opinion.

[Cutthroat]

I don't completely like any of the original ideas. I like some of them halfway though.

I think argosies should have a few NPCs, but likely not more than one for every two rooms on the wagon. It doesn't make much sense to have none, because it's reasonable to assume the House owning the wagon actually cares about it enough to make it some people's duty to protect it. It doesn't make a lot of sense to have a lot because then the wagon becomes more of a drain on resources than it should. Keep a handful of NPCs on, and have PCs do a -majority- of the protecting.

I think wagons are already slow enough that they don't need to be slowed down.

Big creatures should pose a threat to wagons, but I think this is easily handled by staff. Presumably the person taking the wagon out to mekillot territory is enough of a responsible player to report the intentions to staff so that if/when a mekillot is encountered, the event is handled properly.

I'm not really sure what the point of the fourth suggestion is... there are likely better ways to get a wagon to stop in its tracks than moving up alongside a large, potentially dangerous burden animal and messing with the wheels. Some of those ways are going to be things staff might be able to help a group of raiders with, like making roadblocks. That's not a bad thing.

As for the fifth suggestion: unless it would also be possible to make repairs or replace the broken part, this isn't an idea that should go in. Yes, I am thinking of Oregon Trail. It's also worth noting that in rare cases in the past, staff have broken down wagons during H/RPTs, to mix things up.

I would personally like to see destructive plots stay in the realm of "staff-supported, player-driven" rather than being codedly possible at a whim, because while it would be cool to break permanent stuff, they are the ones who rewrite new objects in the end.

[Delstro]

I am not in favor of being able to damage the wagon or letting it breakdown, because few PCs would ever be able to repair it.

I am in favor of getting that sumabitch to stop through making the pilot vulnerable and by making the occupants on the loading plank, or viewing deck vulnerable.

[valeria]

I disagree with the premise of this thread.  What do you mean, there's no real need to jump out and kill carru and gith along the way?  Chances are, your PC escort isn't traveling inside the wagon, so they probably aren't jumping out anyway.  They're probably getting attacked by those carru and gith as they pass.  NPCs can also 'enter' buildings, just like anyone else.  I think what you mean to say is, getting attacked by carru or gith with three to six skilled PC defenders is no big thing.  But that's why wagons require X many PC guards.  You want more spice in your life as a PC guard?  Let the staff know you're traveling from X to Y on Octember 5 and are politely asking if things could get spiced up.  They may or may not oblige.

It's already pretty stressful to pilot a wagon.  So you've spent three months RL months spam-piloting your wagon around the city to the point where you can kind of move it in the direction you want almost consistently... but wait!  Which direction did that entire Byn troupe go?  You mean I have to Way while standing the whole time, because I can't look in directions?  The only thing I think it would make sense to be able to do to the pilot is to shoot or throw spears in through the windows.  Same with the people on the loading plank, if you can't already do this.

1. This makes no IC sense to me.  A wagon is a huge investment for a House, and is not easy to replace.  Of course the House would want to have guards on a wagon.  Wagons sit in wagon yards when PCs aren't around.  Most clans already require X number of PCs to move a wagon, which is usually more than you need (and in my experience, more than it is easy getting to be on at the same time as a clan leader who needs to move a wagon).

2. Wagons are pretty slow.  Anything which slows them down more would make a journey less fun and more tedious, not the other way around.  Never mind the part where you have to learn how to pilot them, which is already like pulling teeth.  If wagons were slowed further, I wouldn't mind, but I think this idea is contrary to your premise of 'more fun.'

3. This seems fine. 

4.  Have you seen a picture or drawing of an argosy?  Or even of just a wagon (pulled by inix, which are three times as tall as your character)?  They're pretty freaking big, which is a lot of weight, a lot of inertia, and probably multiple well-constructed heavy-duty wheels.  We aren't talking covered wagons or horse drawn carriages here.  I think your spear would snap.  I think you'd probably better put a boulder in the front spokes of that wheel. 

5. Wagons breaking down.  This is the most sensible idea in the whole bunch, I think.  But you'd also better give some PCs 'wagon repair' if you are going to argue the realism aspect.  If this was a big problem, people would already have solutions to it over the course of a couple hundred years, like carrying extra wheels and axles, or changing their wagon routes to areas less likely to break wagon wheels, and so on.

I think there's no wagon raiding right now because raiding a wagon would be a lot of WORK.  You'd need several PCs or the assistance of logical NPCs (planned RPT or staff involvement), you'd need to know when a wagon is traveling where (ICly gathered advance intelligence), you'd need some sort of way to slow the wagon down (staff involvement), which probably means knowing in advance what route the wagon is taking (see advance intelligence), etc etc.  I bet if you really wanted to do this, and approached the staff with your schemes and plans, they'd probably be able to realistically help you with the code aspects you don't have an automated way to do.  Ie, we want to place a boulder at this ambush point to break the wagon wheel to slow it down.  So to raid a wagon you would have to inform the staff in advance, of something like an RPT, with knowledge gained through IC intelligence, and specific and realistic plans (I doubt a spear through an argosy wheel is going to work the way you envision).... sounds a lot like what people need to do to move a wagon.  'Hey, we're taking a wagon from X to Y, we have X PCs arranged for the escort, feel free to smack us with realism.'

[roughneck]

4 was a joke.

[KankWhisperer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsrCmotj-Vc

Pilot does't look  too vulnerable to me and the thing looks practically invulnerable. I think thats how I remember dark sun wagons looking anyway.

Killing the mounts would seem like the best bet to me because you wouldn't have to 'fix' anthing just hitch 'mek wagon or whatever. (after sending someone to fetch a backup or whatnot)

I don't like making the pilot vulnerable because then some jerk raider could just take them out with an arrow an there would be really nothing most PCs could do to stop it despite how many  you had or how well RPed.

I'd like the simple ability to follow the fucking wagon. JUST THIS!

(IMHO) It's not a matter of players, its a matter of merchant house greed sometimes. They would rather throw their wagon off the shield wall rather than pay five small for a T'zai Byn escort.

[Sam]

Ok.

Argosy = protected pilot
Normal wagon = unprotected pilot

[FantasyWriter]

Why did they do away with coded wagon mounts?

[Lizzie]

You want more spice in your life as a PC guard?  Let the staff know you're traveling from X to Y on Octember 5 and are politely asking if things could get spiced up.  They may or may not oblige.

I had a PC with wagon access for around a RL year. She would travel fairly often, sometimes with the wagon, sometimes on a mount with escort, once in awhile without an escort.

Whenever I had escort I would wish up to let the staff know I was heading out. I'd let them know when I got along the road that I was along the road with my escort on my wagon. I'd wish up letting them know that if any were interested in helping give my PC guards something interesting to do while they were standing on the platform, here's a real good time for it.

In the entire time I had wagon access, I -never- had staff intervention on a single trip. I would've enjoyed it too but really I was thinking more for the benefit of the PCs who were supposed to be guarding me and my wagon, so they'd get the actual opportunity to do some protecting instead of just standing there wondering if we're there yet.

[Kiara]

Why did they do away with coded wagon mounts?

It was hopelessly bugged if I remember. This was years ago I thiiiink.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Wagons and carts should be craftable. Argosies should be master-craftable.

Wagons and carts should be vulnerable to normal attack. Argosies should not.

Wagons and carts should require extensive resources to build, but be available to the common man. Argosies should not.

The hitch code needs to be fixed, yesterday. Wagons, carts, and argosies should all be drawn by mount.

[X-D]

I agree with Venomz.

And it was not so much that it was buggy.

It was that it was too resource intensive for the machine we had at the time.

Hell, you could tell if somebody moved a wagon a couple rooms because the rest the mud became super slow-mo.

Course I think with the current machine and group of resourceful coders, this problem could be easily fixed.

[Marauder Moe]

Given how ICly and OOCly difficult/impossible it is to get a new wagon, I'm going to have to say that it should be significantly difficult/impossible to kill one.  If all that was required to do so was a handful of fighters, soon we'd have no wagons in the game.

Also, if you've got an unconventional plan for stopping/destroying a wagon, get staff support for it.  I've seen such things done before.

[Marshmellow]

Smaller wagons should be vulnerable, not bigger ones, like the mobile fortress variety of argosy.  There should be more commonly-available, smaller and more vulnerable sorts of wagons, if you ask me.