Wagon Vulnerability

[roughneck]

It was mentioned in the other thread that wagons are nigh invincible and it can be boring riding in one because while you may jump out to kill carru or gith along the way, there's no real need to.  I think it's worth talking about how to make them a little more vulnerable because it would make for a lot more fun for the people piloting/defending them as well as create more opportunities for mercenary groups like the byn and would-be raiders.  In my opinion, no place should be as safe as wagons are on the sands of Zalanthas (unless you have someone who's shitty at pilot).

A couple of ideas I have:

1.  No more NPC guards!  Hire the byn to do it or hire your own guards.  This makes everything a little more uncertain, involves more pc's and gives pc raiders some encouragement that it's possible and even if they lose, will be more fun and interesting then getting pwnd by an NPC.

2.  Slow them down.  Unless it's a courier wagon or something make those big, lumbering argossies lumber along slowly.

3.  Big creatures which can attack and damage a wagon the same way you can a tent.  An argossy shouldn't outrun a mek and if the mek catches up, you better have a crew that can handle it or it may just beat the fuck out of that big wooden box rolling through his 'hood.

4.  It's silly that you can't stick a spear in the spokes of the front wheel and make a wagon donkey-kick it's occupants forward out of their seats.

Maybe I'm just out to lunch and maybe it's such a minor issue it doesn't really matter.

EDIT - 5.  Chance of breakdown!  Wooden wheels would break on stony ground or torque and break in deep sand very regularly.  Strand those wagon-riding mfers in the red desert.

[Kiara]

Yes to numbers 1, 3 and maybe 4.

No to number 2: Wagon rides are already boring enough.

[Fathi]

#1: At least one clan already does this, which I thought was cool. I really don't see why some wagons have like 5-6 NPCs per room of them, though, that baffles the mind and takes all the fun out of things.

#2: I'm iffy on this. It makes sense, yes, but wagons are already damn slow. I don't think an argosy can currently outrun a mek, for what it's worth.

#3: I like this.

#4: We should be able to put Templar trading cards in the spokes, too. Totally dig.

[Sam]

I say make the pilot vulnerable. They should be sitting on top or out in the open on these things.
I say make most of the wagons actual platforms that move, instead of being in a vault. You would see everyone riding in the first room of the wagon, which is usually the loading zone, or on top. Example:

Instead of:
Look east
A medium sized argssy sits here.
A lone skinny Kadian runs beside the wagon, cursing the riders.

You would see all the NPCs and PCs on the platform.
The rigid, twitching Kadian is here, pilotting, on an argosy.
The buff, squirelly dwarf is here, half asleep, on an argosy.
The scarred, Mudsex crafter is here, alert to every movement, on an argosy.
The so on is soing on, on an argosy.
A lone skinny Kadian runs beside the wagon, cursing the riders.

To the east, a medium sized argosy moves south, pilotted by the rigid, twitching Kadian.
Tot he east, a lone skinny Kadian follows the wagon.

South
You move south.

shoot kadian east

You release the arrow, watching it as it impales a Kadian pilot through the shoulder and neck.

The argosy stops moving.

[Kiara]

Hell yes, please make pilots vulnerable.

More raids please.

[Synthesis]

Who farking cares?

There aren't enough raiders in the game at any point in time to make destroying a wagon a reasonable event, unless you get the staff to animate some for you, which they're probably not going to do, because coding up a new wagon is a huge pain in the ass relative to the few chuckles people will get out of destroying the old one.

And seriously, wtf are you going to do after destroying the wagon?  HA HA we destroyed your wagon! We are teh awexome! Okay, shit...my shitty elf strength won't let me carry more than a couple more items so...let's see...I'll take that nice sword there and...cool, we need a chest for the storeroom, so I'll take that, too. Just let me dump it out real quick.

This sort of crap might be justified for an RPT, and if it's an RPT, you should have plenty of staff around to help you out with it.  The ability to engage in random assaults on wagons for the lulz just isn't going to happen.

[Delstro]

Well, if the pilot is vulnerable, you wouldn't have to completely destroy a wagon to stop the bitch from moving.There are no wagon raiders now, because wagons are impractical to raid.

If the pilot was more vulnerable:
The Bynn and others would be used more.
There would be turnover among House Family Members, which may make them more exciting.
It would make raiders more practical, since they would be able to steal a few items instead of destroyign the entire wagon.

Sounds like a positive change to me.

[Kiara]

Who farking cares?

Obviously we do because we're contributing to the thread in a positive manner.

If all you're going to do is take a giant steaming dump on everyone else in every single thread, why bother posting? No one likes it.

[Lizzie]

A problem with the "no NPC guards" thing, is that wagon pilot players already have pretty strict restrictions. Most of the clans that have wagons require a minimum of guards, and the staff allows for at least some of them to be NPCs. If it weren't for that, most wagons would never leave the wagonyard.

If you're taking a huge-ass argosy, ONE guard won't be enough. FOUR guards probably isn't enough either..so how about six. Except, try and get six people together when it's convenient for YOU - on a round-trip...going down might not be a problem but coming back? Well Amos can't play on Sundays, and Malik can play but he has to log out 20 minutes after the scheduled time. Talia can't show up til an hour later..

So once again you're stuck in red storm for a RL month because you can't find 6 PCs who can all log in at the same time and be available for the same 2-hour stand-around staring out the wagonramp wishing a staff member would animate a wayward tembo.

Instead, they allow for NPC guards. This gives the wagoneer more of an opportunity to actually use the wagon. So now instead of 6 PCs, it's 6 guards, and at least 2 of them have to be PCs. There are 4 NPC guards on the wagon, plus the wagoneer is probably of a rank where he can take an assigned personal NPC guard.

Now they have plenty of coverage, and they don't have to spend months in OOC deliberations just trying to come up with a 2-hour window in which to travel by wagon from point A to point B and back.

[Kiara]

You act as if the game is lacking in terms of players.

That's hardly an issue.

It's not difficult to get six players or more together for an rpt.

[Synthesis]

Who farking cares?

Obviously we do because we're contributing to the thread in a positive manner.

If all you're going to do is take a giant steaming dump on everyone else in every single thread, why bother posting? No one likes it.

Because when an idea is stupid, someone should probably point it out before people get carried away.

I should probably amend that to say that the idea is stupid given the current game environment.  If certain factors changed (e.g. average # players logged in, ease of replacing wagons improved), it might be a decent suggestion, at best. 

Even then, the idea of GMH wagons/argosies regularly being savaged is just a little silly.  If circumstances changed, they would simply increase the number of guards they used, and wagons would be just as safe as they are now.  Arms race, you know.

[Kiara]

I'm for whatever promotes conflict.

This helps, in my opinion.

[Cutthroat]

I don't completely like any of the original ideas. I like some of them halfway though.

I think argosies should have a few NPCs, but likely not more than one for every two rooms on the wagon. It doesn't make much sense to have none, because it's reasonable to assume the House owning the wagon actually cares about it enough to make it some people's duty to protect it. It doesn't make a lot of sense to have a lot because then the wagon becomes more of a drain on resources than it should. Keep a handful of NPCs on, and have PCs do a -majority- of the protecting.

I think wagons are already slow enough that they don't need to be slowed down.

Big creatures should pose a threat to wagons, but I think this is easily handled by staff. Presumably the person taking the wagon out to mekillot territory is enough of a responsible player to report the intentions to staff so that if/when a mekillot is encountered, the event is handled properly.

I'm not really sure what the point of the fourth suggestion is... there are likely better ways to get a wagon to stop in its tracks than moving up alongside a large, potentially dangerous burden animal and messing with the wheels. Some of those ways are going to be things staff might be able to help a group of raiders with, like making roadblocks. That's not a bad thing.

As for the fifth suggestion: unless it would also be possible to make repairs or replace the broken part, this isn't an idea that should go in. Yes, I am thinking of Oregon Trail. It's also worth noting that in rare cases in the past, staff have broken down wagons during H/RPTs, to mix things up.

I would personally like to see destructive plots stay in the realm of "staff-supported, player-driven" rather than being codedly possible at a whim, because while it would be cool to break permanent stuff, they are the ones who rewrite new objects in the end.

[Delstro]

I am not in favor of being able to damage the wagon or letting it breakdown, because few PCs would ever be able to repair it.

I am in favor of getting that sumabitch to stop through making the pilot vulnerable and by making the occupants on the loading plank, or viewing deck vulnerable.

[valeria]

I disagree with the premise of this thread.  What do you mean, there's no real need to jump out and kill carru and gith along the way?  Chances are, your PC escort isn't traveling inside the wagon, so they probably aren't jumping out anyway.  They're probably getting attacked by those carru and gith as they pass.  NPCs can also 'enter' buildings, just like anyone else.  I think what you mean to say is, getting attacked by carru or gith with three to six skilled PC defenders is no big thing.  But that's why wagons require X many PC guards.  You want more spice in your life as a PC guard?  Let the staff know you're traveling from X to Y on Octember 5 and are politely asking if things could get spiced up.  They may or may not oblige.

It's already pretty stressful to pilot a wagon.  So you've spent three months RL months spam-piloting your wagon around the city to the point where you can kind of move it in the direction you want almost consistently... but wait!  Which direction did that entire Byn troupe go?  You mean I have to Way while standing the whole time, because I can't look in directions?  The only thing I think it would make sense to be able to do to the pilot is to shoot or throw spears in through the windows.  Same with the people on the loading plank, if you can't already do this.

1. This makes no IC sense to me.  A wagon is a huge investment for a House, and is not easy to replace.  Of course the House would want to have guards on a wagon.  Wagons sit in wagon yards when PCs aren't around.  Most clans already require X number of PCs to move a wagon, which is usually more than you need (and in my experience, more than it is easy getting to be on at the same time as a clan leader who needs to move a wagon).

2. Wagons are pretty slow.  Anything which slows them down more would make a journey less fun and more tedious, not the other way around.  Never mind the part where you have to learn how to pilot them, which is already like pulling teeth.  If wagons were slowed further, I wouldn't mind, but I think this idea is contrary to your premise of 'more fun.'

3. This seems fine. 

4.  Have you seen a picture or drawing of an argosy?  Or even of just a wagon (pulled by inix, which are three times as tall as your character)?  They're pretty freaking big, which is a lot of weight, a lot of inertia, and probably multiple well-constructed heavy-duty wheels.  We aren't talking covered wagons or horse drawn carriages here.  I think your spear would snap.  I think you'd probably better put a boulder in the front spokes of that wheel. 

5. Wagons breaking down.  This is the most sensible idea in the whole bunch, I think.  But you'd also better give some PCs 'wagon repair' if you are going to argue the realism aspect.  If this was a big problem, people would already have solutions to it over the course of a couple hundred years, like carrying extra wheels and axles, or changing their wagon routes to areas less likely to break wagon wheels, and so on.

I think there's no wagon raiding right now because raiding a wagon would be a lot of WORK.  You'd need several PCs or the assistance of logical NPCs (planned RPT or staff involvement), you'd need to know when a wagon is traveling where (ICly gathered advance intelligence), you'd need some sort of way to slow the wagon down (staff involvement), which probably means knowing in advance what route the wagon is taking (see advance intelligence), etc etc.  I bet if you really wanted to do this, and approached the staff with your schemes and plans, they'd probably be able to realistically help you with the code aspects you don't have an automated way to do.  Ie, we want to place a boulder at this ambush point to break the wagon wheel to slow it down.  So to raid a wagon you would have to inform the staff in advance, of something like an RPT, with knowledge gained through IC intelligence, and specific and realistic plans (I doubt a spear through an argosy wheel is going to work the way you envision).... sounds a lot like what people need to do to move a wagon.  'Hey, we're taking a wagon from X to Y, we have X PCs arranged for the escort, feel free to smack us with realism.'

[roughneck]

4 was a joke.

[KankWhisperer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsrCmotj-Vc

Pilot does't look  too vulnerable to me and the thing looks practically invulnerable. I think thats how I remember dark sun wagons looking anyway.

Killing the mounts would seem like the best bet to me because you wouldn't have to 'fix' anthing just hitch 'mek wagon or whatever. (after sending someone to fetch a backup or whatnot)

I don't like making the pilot vulnerable because then some jerk raider could just take them out with an arrow an there would be really nothing most PCs could do to stop it despite how many  you had or how well RPed.

I'd like the simple ability to follow the fucking wagon. JUST THIS!

(IMHO) It's not a matter of players, its a matter of merchant house greed sometimes. They would rather throw their wagon off the shield wall rather than pay five small for a T'zai Byn escort.

[Sam]

Ok.

Argosy = protected pilot
Normal wagon = unprotected pilot

[FantasyWriter]

Why did they do away with coded wagon mounts?

[Lizzie]

You want more spice in your life as a PC guard?  Let the staff know you're traveling from X to Y on Octember 5 and are politely asking if things could get spiced up.  They may or may not oblige.

I had a PC with wagon access for around a RL year. She would travel fairly often, sometimes with the wagon, sometimes on a mount with escort, once in awhile without an escort.

Whenever I had escort I would wish up to let the staff know I was heading out. I'd let them know when I got along the road that I was along the road with my escort on my wagon. I'd wish up letting them know that if any were interested in helping give my PC guards something interesting to do while they were standing on the platform, here's a real good time for it.

In the entire time I had wagon access, I -never- had staff intervention on a single trip. I would've enjoyed it too but really I was thinking more for the benefit of the PCs who were supposed to be guarding me and my wagon, so they'd get the actual opportunity to do some protecting instead of just standing there wondering if we're there yet.

[Kiara]

Why did they do away with coded wagon mounts?

It was hopelessly bugged if I remember. This was years ago I thiiiink.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Wagons and carts should be craftable. Argosies should be master-craftable.

Wagons and carts should be vulnerable to normal attack. Argosies should not.

Wagons and carts should require extensive resources to build, but be available to the common man. Argosies should not.

The hitch code needs to be fixed, yesterday. Wagons, carts, and argosies should all be drawn by mount.

[X-D]

I agree with Venomz.

And it was not so much that it was buggy.

It was that it was too resource intensive for the machine we had at the time.

Hell, you could tell if somebody moved a wagon a couple rooms because the rest the mud became super slow-mo.

Course I think with the current machine and group of resourceful coders, this problem could be easily fixed.

[Marauder Moe]

Given how ICly and OOCly difficult/impossible it is to get a new wagon, I'm going to have to say that it should be significantly difficult/impossible to kill one.  If all that was required to do so was a handful of fighters, soon we'd have no wagons in the game.

Also, if you've got an unconventional plan for stopping/destroying a wagon, get staff support for it.  I've seen such things done before.

[Marshmellow]

Smaller wagons should be vulnerable, not bigger ones, like the mobile fortress variety of argosy.  There should be more commonly-available, smaller and more vulnerable sorts of wagons, if you ask me.

[WagonsHo]

When I was in a clan role that had me driving an argosy around, we wouldn't leave the gates without 3-5 Byn and at least 2-3 of our clan.  Usually, everyone was riding outside.  This was a rule passed down by our staff (or at the very least, a "suggestion" which we interpreted as a rule).  We never not once had trouble getting this many players together and we did it at least 2 RL nights a month, sometimes 4.  One a few occasions, I think we had 8-10 guards outside.  I always assumed that if we took fewer PCs, staff would remind us of why it was a good idea to take along a full set of guards.

I agree fully with Valeria's description of the stress of piloting a wagon, though I had a very professional crew and we had smooth system worked out, so it became less stressful with time.  We did have some imm animations a few times ... one in particular that made is glad of every damn extra PC we had along.

So.  I think if every time a clan moved it's wagon, it hired the Byn and took along its own guards, it would be good for the mud.  I know I certainly enjoyed it.

[Lizzie]

When I was in a clan role that had me driving an argosy around, we wouldn't leave the gates without 3-5 Byn and at least 2-3 of our clan.  Usually, everyone was riding outside.  This was a rule passed down by our staff (or at the very least, a "suggestion" which we interpreted as a rule).  We never not once had trouble getting this many players together and we did it at least 2 RL nights a month, sometimes 4.  One a few occasions, I think we had 8-10 guards outside.  I always assumed that if we took fewer PCs, staff would remind us of why it was a good idea to take along a full set of guards.

I agree fully with Valeria's description of the stress of piloting a wagon, though I had a very professional crew and we had smooth system worked out, so it became less stressful with time.  We did have some imm animations a few times ... one in particular that made is glad of every damn extra PC we had along.

So.  I think if every time a clan moved it's wagon, it hired the Byn and took along its own guards, it would be good for the mud.  I know I certainly enjoyed it.

So whenever the only active Bynner authorized to arrange deals played a different time that you played, you'd just what - never take the wagon out at all? Yeah that'd be real good for the mud.

/dripping sarcasm

[WagonsHo]

So whenever the only active Bynner authorized to arrange deals played a different time that you played, you'd just what - never take the wagon out at all? Yeah that'd be real good for the mud.

/dripping sarcasm

/dripping eyerolling

[WagonsHo]

/dripping sarcasm

And to clarify, since your over-abundance of wet, sticky sarcasm has apparently dripped into your eyes so you couldn't read what I said:

I think if every time a clan moved it's wagon, it hired the Byn and took along its own guards, it would be good for the mud.

I didn't say "there should be an iron-clad rule for all clans that you can't move a wagon without the Byn."  I said IF, meaning IF this happened, THEN this would be the result.

IF we hired the Byn more, THEN the game would benefit.

But since that may not exactly match your exact and particular circumstances, go ahead and jump on in with your sarcasm since someone made a suggestion that wasn't tailored precisely to your needs.  Oy.  

[Talia]

Hey guys, let's chill.

[Stacy]

Actually I know what Wagonho is talking about, and it was never all that hard to set up dates, especially if enough notice was given.   

[jstorrie]

I think that now would be a fine time to recode wagons, in order to test implementation ahead of 2.Arm. Wagons should really be far more like mounts than like rooms; they're relatively small vehicles that people ride on. Running them as vehicles instead of rooms would make things far more interesting, I think. If you do it right they can approximate what a lot of people want from approach code: having separate zones within an outside area room.

What I think would be cool would be a system wherein wagons acted as sort of super-mounts. Multiple PCs could be mounted upon one wagon (or 'seated' at the moving 'wagon table', if that's easier to imagine). If your wagon is unpiloted, you can take the reins with a command, and this affects your standing status and ldesc accordingly. You could stand on a wagon but severe bumps or the like would periodically roll to throw standing people into the rest position. The pilot can be dislodged by combat or the like, so you can jack a wagon by force just by catching up to it, mounting it, and attacking or throwing out the pilot. Riders with the guard skill could guard this super-mount/table, so you have to get past them to get on if they're actively guarding the 'exit'. Riders on the wagon could have a command to offer a hand to someone on the ground, to pull them up through guarding, so you could quickly get friends on without dropping your defense-or you could pull fellow invaders on, if you were hostile. Like a table, a wagon ought to add some storage space to a room, but since the table moves around it's also a way to move a lot of goods. Like a mount, the wagon will have stamina-the mount's stamina, actually, because if the whole thing is being recoded you might as well finally fix attaching mounts to wagons. Since the wagon is no longer a room, maybe it'll be easier to have the two objects pull each other around. You can put all sorts of modifiers on different sorts of vehicles to differentiate them, like how easy it is to stand on them, how fast they move, how many mounts they can attach, etc.

Argosies, being more like rolling structures than vehicles, could still operate in fairly the same way as they do now. Just make them much rarer than they are now–and for extra fun, maybe find some way to make them fairly vulnerable to these wagon objects, so you could raid the Tuluki Baobab Tank with your pod of Allanaki chariots and your battle-wagon. That'd be sweet. I'm down with argosies being master-craftable, but only in the sense that a steel sword or a magical suit of human-skin armor is master-craftable–ie, at the end of a long, documented run of 'questing'. Argosies should be rare, unique, and totally awesome rolling battle-fortresses.

[Delstro]

Agreed.

[Cutthroat]

I like jstorrie's idea, and additionally think such implementation will make the idea of a craftable wagon more viable. Since wagons will be more like the silt-skimmer objects than wagons with room descriptions and exits.

[Qzzrbl]

Heh, I remember a sillt-horror once crawled into a wagon and killed my PC's inix long ago.

It was awesome.

Anyhow, wagons are already plenty vulnerable as it is.

Any group of raiders worth their weight in sand should be able to take one with relative ease.

[Marshmellow]

Except that there are other barriers, usually.  You would need staff assistance from the go.

[valeria]

You want more spice in your life as a PC guard?  Let the staff know you're traveling from X to Y on Octember 5 and are politely asking if things could get spiced up.  They may or may not oblige.

... I would wish up to let the staff know I was heading out. ...

Not specifically directed at Lizzy, but...

While I've gotten interaction from a 'routine' wishing up upon leaving the gates as a leadership character, I've found that it usually works better if I give staff at least a day, if not a couple of days notice if I want anything out of the ordinary to happen.  This is probably so that the appropriate staffer(s) get notice to be online at that time if they even can, and can plan something in advance, instead of having to wing something while keeping track of exactly where the wagon is along the planned route and what would be IC for that particular location.

[FantasyWriter]

Heh, I remember a sillt-horror once crawled into a wagon and killed my PC's inix long ago.

It was awesome.

Anyhow, wagons are already plenty vulnerable as it is.

Any group of raiders worth their weight in sand should be able to take one with relative ease.

Haha, I believe I was there.
Did some massive, albino dwarf skin it and make some armor out of the hide and shell for you to remember it by?

[Qzzrbl]

Heh, I remember a sillt-horror once crawled into a wagon and killed my PC's inix long ago.

It was awesome.

Anyhow, wagons are already plenty vulnerable as it is.

Any group of raiders worth their weight in sand should be able to take one with relative ease.

Haha, I believe I was there.
Did some massive, albino dwarf skin it and make some armor out of the hide and shell for you to remember it by?

Yessir.

Good ol'e Lardass the Inix....

[FantasyWriter]

God, those were some fun times.  Bad things always happened when Sharlo took the Wargosy out after its refitting.



I had some good animations with my kadians, too.  Had a -pack- of tembos charge against a small wagon like they were trying to knock it over, and some NPC elves that shot up a bunch of folks (including me, the pilot) from outside, while we were trying to haul ass away from them.
Good times, good times.

[Twilight]

Modify the skimmer code to be a bit more reasonable, then make the results mastercraft capable.  These should be carts, or very, very small wagons.  GMH wagons -should- require staff assistance to raid.  For a number of them, I don't think the NPC presence is nearly what the true defensive force of the wagon is.

[zakattack]

What if we leave the current wagons in a class of their own, and hopefully meet the needs of many merchants and open up more possibilities for the soldiers as well as raiders with something I call the personal cart (for now).

I thought of this earlier today and then recently read jstorrie's post, so I incorporated some of his ideas.

      
   Craft Wagonmaking Cartmaking

    Take a bunch of crap and make some new crap, put that together to make some more crap. Add as many stages as necessary. Here's the kicker, require a number of real mounts that will be consumed during the final step of creation.

   Basically, use a mount NPC for a cart. This gives an easy way to adjust the carrying capacity, speed, stamina, hp, and manage/display inventory. Balance their stats so they can carry more and have some formula of endurance based on the mounts and materials that were used during creation.
   
   Movement   
   
   Slightly alter the movement code to use pilot instead of ride for this mount type, possibly adjust weather related and unknown goodies.
   
   Combat/Damage
   
   I think putting the sparring dummy proc on them would work well, probably with a few tweaks. This removes the ability for the cart to fight, but it will be "destroyed" when enough damage has been dealt to it. It would be interesting if a crafter could somehow repair the damage, but maybe they should just break, it's a harsh world. You should have had more guards?
      
   I wonder about using the salvage in lieu of a repair command. Could we use salvage to essentially strip away ruined pieces from a broken cart and then use the good components to craft a new cart?
   
   Guarding could require guards on both the pilot and the cart itself, they may encourge a troop to surround a cart, protecting different areas.
   
   Considerations
   
   * Recipies for mount type & materials; varies stats speed/capacity/stamina/etc
   * Can only be ridden by the pilot
   * Pilot & cargo are vulnerable, just like on any mount
   * Pilot has visibility just like on any mount   
   * Killing the wagon's mounts is resolved by damaging the cart, same conclusion.
   * Cart tires just like a regular mount. 
   * Guard pilot & Guard wagon managed with existing code
   * Cart Inventory managed with existing code   
   * Stamina management with existing code
   * Mount/rest message reflect mounts resting and pilot climbing on platform.
   * Makes hiring guards extremely attractive to protect the investment
   
   
   
   Wish List
   
   * Money sink - Rentable at stables? High cost or a cost/day.
   * Money sink - Fairly fragile, but salvagable in the field if enough materials and skill are available.
   * Tweak to buck code depending on weight/stability of wagon and mount type.
   * Make it unhitchable. Whoever is "mounted" on the cart is the pilot/owner.
   * Guarding a cart prevents it from being mounted by a pilot, without a guard check.
   * Guarding a cart or pilot could protect both?
   * A pilot might be slightly more protected against a onslaught than a similarly mounted rider, depending on the cart type.

[FantasyWriter]

I also wouldn't mind a hand-cart "mount" that couldn't be mounted, but could be hitched to you and carry a lot of weight as you pull it, reducing your stamina drain.  Could also be mounted by another (PC drawn NOBLE/TEMPLAR charriot!)

[Marshmellow]

FantasyWriter, I would prefer it boost your stamina drain, probably by increasing your encumbrance, but anything placed in the cart, up to the cart's limit, does not count against your encumbrance in any way.

[FantasyWriter]

Agreed.

[evil_erdlu]

4.  It's silly that you can't stick a spear in the spokes of the front wheel and make a wagon donkey-kick it's occupants forward out of their seats.

Only a spear? Maybe a whole log. And five half-giants to hold it tight. Wagons are large. Argosies are titanic houses on wheels.

EDIT - 5.  Chance of breakdown!  Wooden wheels would break on stony ground or torque and break in deep sand very regularly.  Strand those wagon-riding mfers in the red desert.

Uh.. It could be fine.. There are people with 'wagonmaking' as a skill, which currently does... stuff that you sell as parts. If simple stuff that can be arranged with the clan imms with a request like 'We have prepared two wagon wheels, two hubs and twelve spokes to replace the last broken wagon. When shall we meet for the wagon repair RPT?"

But having it broken during an ordinary trip - say, without intervention from gargantuan animals or raiders of skill? Nope.. Even if it breaks, let it slow down and keep on breaking, so you can quickly ride it to Luir's, leave it in the wagonyard and later come back with the repair crew. I would hate to be stranded in the middle of nowhere with a useless wagon to repair.

[Little_Cacophony]

You act as if the game is lacking in terms of players.

That's hardly an issue.

It's not difficult to get six players or more together for an rpt.

It is a huge issue.

It only takes about two weeks to get six designated players together for a rpt, and that is if you are on during peak time.

It takes me about 2 weeks to have a scheduled meeting with any one pc in any clan. But I am just damned inefficient.

Anyone who drives a vulnerable wagon and actually hires random, untested Bynner recruits as escorts deserve to have their wagon burned down and the ashes spread to the four winds.  I'd rather driving a wagon not become a HRPT.

Beside, isn't it the staff rule is to have no wagon building?

Maybe the suggestions would be more suitable for Arm 2.

[Niamh]

Anyone who drives a vulnerable wagon and actually hires random, untested Bynner recruits as escorts deserve to have their wagon burned down and the ashes spread to the four winds.  I'd rather driving a wagon not become a HRPT.

Trouble during wagon trips is part of the fun, and I'm sorry that you feel that way.  By cruising through wagon trips as fast as you can and refusing to hire Byn for wagon escorts, you deprive a lot of people from some great roleplay.

[Little_Cacophony]

Anyone who drives a vulnerable wagon and actually hires random, untested Bynner recruits as escorts deserve to have their wagon burned down and the ashes spread to the four winds.  I'd rather driving a wagon not become a HRPT.

Trouble during wagon trips is part of the fun, and I'm sorry that you feel that way.  By cruising through wagon trips as fast as you can and refusing to hire Byn for wagon escorts, you deprive a lot of people from some great roleplay.

After having spent 4 months irl trying to hire Byn, I can tell you it is not from any lack of trying or effort on my part. Or was it six months? Pilot wagon is so boring and sleepy, I quite welcome trouble. Having spent 1 hour irl go from one city to Luirs, anyone who calls wagon driving fast should try walking - it's even faster.

I simply do not agree that each trip should become RPT. My main issue is the schedule, most of the possibilities proposed so far, from my point of view, just drags on the irl stress rather than fun. I would really prefer it if no one would make off peak any more unplayable and difficult than it already is.  When I only have 1-2 hours logged on to move things, I only have 1-2 hours to stay logged on.

[Niamh]

If that's not the type of thing you enjoy doing, then perhaps you should avoid the types of roles that involve wagons and escorts.

[wizturbo]

If that's not the type of thing you enjoy doing, then perhaps you should avoid the types of roles that involve wagons and escorts.

I don't think it needs to be so black and white.  Some wagon trips are routine, some turn into RPTs out of the blue...  I don't see why this is a problem?

[Marshmellow]

All wagon trips are RPTs.

[Nyr]

Some wagon trips are boring and routine.  I don't think every one should be a major RPT.  Maybe shit happens and maybe it doesn't.

[wizturbo]

Some wagon trips are boring and routine.  I don't think every one should be a major RPT.  Maybe shit happens and maybe it doesn't.

<3