Wagon Vulnerability

[WagonsHo]

When I was in a clan role that had me driving an argosy around, we wouldn't leave the gates without 3-5 Byn and at least 2-3 of our clan.  Usually, everyone was riding outside.  This was a rule passed down by our staff (or at the very least, a "suggestion" which we interpreted as a rule).  We never not once had trouble getting this many players together and we did it at least 2 RL nights a month, sometimes 4.  One a few occasions, I think we had 8-10 guards outside.  I always assumed that if we took fewer PCs, staff would remind us of why it was a good idea to take along a full set of guards.

I agree fully with Valeria's description of the stress of piloting a wagon, though I had a very professional crew and we had smooth system worked out, so it became less stressful with time.  We did have some imm animations a few times ... one in particular that made is glad of every damn extra PC we had along.

So.  I think if every time a clan moved it's wagon, it hired the Byn and took along its own guards, it would be good for the mud.  I know I certainly enjoyed it.

[Lizzie]

When I was in a clan role that had me driving an argosy around, we wouldn't leave the gates without 3-5 Byn and at least 2-3 of our clan.  Usually, everyone was riding outside.  This was a rule passed down by our staff (or at the very least, a "suggestion" which we interpreted as a rule).  We never not once had trouble getting this many players together and we did it at least 2 RL nights a month, sometimes 4.  One a few occasions, I think we had 8-10 guards outside.  I always assumed that if we took fewer PCs, staff would remind us of why it was a good idea to take along a full set of guards.

I agree fully with Valeria's description of the stress of piloting a wagon, though I had a very professional crew and we had smooth system worked out, so it became less stressful with time.  We did have some imm animations a few times ... one in particular that made is glad of every damn extra PC we had along.

So.  I think if every time a clan moved it's wagon, it hired the Byn and took along its own guards, it would be good for the mud.  I know I certainly enjoyed it.

So whenever the only active Bynner authorized to arrange deals played a different time that you played, you'd just what - never take the wagon out at all? Yeah that'd be real good for the mud.

/dripping sarcasm

[WagonsHo]

So whenever the only active Bynner authorized to arrange deals played a different time that you played, you'd just what - never take the wagon out at all? Yeah that'd be real good for the mud.

/dripping sarcasm

/dripping eyerolling

[WagonsHo]

/dripping sarcasm

And to clarify, since your over-abundance of wet, sticky sarcasm has apparently dripped into your eyes so you couldn't read what I said:

I think if every time a clan moved it's wagon, it hired the Byn and took along its own guards, it would be good for the mud.

I didn't say "there should be an iron-clad rule for all clans that you can't move a wagon without the Byn."  I said IF, meaning IF this happened, THEN this would be the result.

IF we hired the Byn more, THEN the game would benefit.

But since that may not exactly match your exact and particular circumstances, go ahead and jump on in with your sarcasm since someone made a suggestion that wasn't tailored precisely to your needs.  Oy.  

[Talia]

Hey guys, let's chill.

[Stacy]

Actually I know what Wagonho is talking about, and it was never all that hard to set up dates, especially if enough notice was given.   

[jstorrie]

I think that now would be a fine time to recode wagons, in order to test implementation ahead of 2.Arm. Wagons should really be far more like mounts than like rooms; they're relatively small vehicles that people ride on. Running them as vehicles instead of rooms would make things far more interesting, I think. If you do it right they can approximate what a lot of people want from approach code: having separate zones within an outside area room.

What I think would be cool would be a system wherein wagons acted as sort of super-mounts. Multiple PCs could be mounted upon one wagon (or 'seated' at the moving 'wagon table', if that's easier to imagine). If your wagon is unpiloted, you can take the reins with a command, and this affects your standing status and ldesc accordingly. You could stand on a wagon but severe bumps or the like would periodically roll to throw standing people into the rest position. The pilot can be dislodged by combat or the like, so you can jack a wagon by force just by catching up to it, mounting it, and attacking or throwing out the pilot. Riders with the guard skill could guard this super-mount/table, so you have to get past them to get on if they're actively guarding the 'exit'. Riders on the wagon could have a command to offer a hand to someone on the ground, to pull them up through guarding, so you could quickly get friends on without dropping your defense-or you could pull fellow invaders on, if you were hostile. Like a table, a wagon ought to add some storage space to a room, but since the table moves around it's also a way to move a lot of goods. Like a mount, the wagon will have stamina-the mount's stamina, actually, because if the whole thing is being recoded you might as well finally fix attaching mounts to wagons. Since the wagon is no longer a room, maybe it'll be easier to have the two objects pull each other around. You can put all sorts of modifiers on different sorts of vehicles to differentiate them, like how easy it is to stand on them, how fast they move, how many mounts they can attach, etc.

Argosies, being more like rolling structures than vehicles, could still operate in fairly the same way as they do now. Just make them much rarer than they are now–and for extra fun, maybe find some way to make them fairly vulnerable to these wagon objects, so you could raid the Tuluki Baobab Tank with your pod of Allanaki chariots and your battle-wagon. That'd be sweet. I'm down with argosies being master-craftable, but only in the sense that a steel sword or a magical suit of human-skin armor is master-craftable–ie, at the end of a long, documented run of 'questing'. Argosies should be rare, unique, and totally awesome rolling battle-fortresses.

[Delstro]

Agreed.

[Cutthroat]

I like jstorrie's idea, and additionally think such implementation will make the idea of a craftable wagon more viable. Since wagons will be more like the silt-skimmer objects than wagons with room descriptions and exits.

[Qzzrbl]

Heh, I remember a sillt-horror once crawled into a wagon and killed my PC's inix long ago.

It was awesome.

Anyhow, wagons are already plenty vulnerable as it is.

Any group of raiders worth their weight in sand should be able to take one with relative ease.

[Marshmellow]

Except that there are other barriers, usually.  You would need staff assistance from the go.

[valeria]

You want more spice in your life as a PC guard?  Let the staff know you're traveling from X to Y on Octember 5 and are politely asking if things could get spiced up.  They may or may not oblige.

... I would wish up to let the staff know I was heading out. ...

Not specifically directed at Lizzy, but...

While I've gotten interaction from a 'routine' wishing up upon leaving the gates as a leadership character, I've found that it usually works better if I give staff at least a day, if not a couple of days notice if I want anything out of the ordinary to happen.  This is probably so that the appropriate staffer(s) get notice to be online at that time if they even can, and can plan something in advance, instead of having to wing something while keeping track of exactly where the wagon is along the planned route and what would be IC for that particular location.

[FantasyWriter]

Heh, I remember a sillt-horror once crawled into a wagon and killed my PC's inix long ago.

It was awesome.

Anyhow, wagons are already plenty vulnerable as it is.

Any group of raiders worth their weight in sand should be able to take one with relative ease.

Haha, I believe I was there.
Did some massive, albino dwarf skin it and make some armor out of the hide and shell for you to remember it by?

[Qzzrbl]

Heh, I remember a sillt-horror once crawled into a wagon and killed my PC's inix long ago.

It was awesome.

Anyhow, wagons are already plenty vulnerable as it is.

Any group of raiders worth their weight in sand should be able to take one with relative ease.

Haha, I believe I was there.
Did some massive, albino dwarf skin it and make some armor out of the hide and shell for you to remember it by?

Yessir.

Good ol'e Lardass the Inix....

[FantasyWriter]

God, those were some fun times.  Bad things always happened when Sharlo took the Wargosy out after its refitting.



I had some good animations with my kadians, too.  Had a -pack- of tembos charge against a small wagon like they were trying to knock it over, and some NPC elves that shot up a bunch of folks (including me, the pilot) from outside, while we were trying to haul ass away from them.
Good times, good times.

[Twilight]

Modify the skimmer code to be a bit more reasonable, then make the results mastercraft capable.  These should be carts, or very, very small wagons.  GMH wagons -should- require staff assistance to raid.  For a number of them, I don't think the NPC presence is nearly what the true defensive force of the wagon is.

[zakattack]

What if we leave the current wagons in a class of their own, and hopefully meet the needs of many merchants and open up more possibilities for the soldiers as well as raiders with something I call the personal cart (for now).

I thought of this earlier today and then recently read jstorrie's post, so I incorporated some of his ideas.

      
   Craft Wagonmaking Cartmaking

    Take a bunch of crap and make some new crap, put that together to make some more crap. Add as many stages as necessary. Here's the kicker, require a number of real mounts that will be consumed during the final step of creation.

   Basically, use a mount NPC for a cart. This gives an easy way to adjust the carrying capacity, speed, stamina, hp, and manage/display inventory. Balance their stats so they can carry more and have some formula of endurance based on the mounts and materials that were used during creation.
   
   Movement   
   
   Slightly alter the movement code to use pilot instead of ride for this mount type, possibly adjust weather related and unknown goodies.
   
   Combat/Damage
   
   I think putting the sparring dummy proc on them would work well, probably with a few tweaks. This removes the ability for the cart to fight, but it will be "destroyed" when enough damage has been dealt to it. It would be interesting if a crafter could somehow repair the damage, but maybe they should just break, it's a harsh world. You should have had more guards?
      
   I wonder about using the salvage in lieu of a repair command. Could we use salvage to essentially strip away ruined pieces from a broken cart and then use the good components to craft a new cart?
   
   Guarding could require guards on both the pilot and the cart itself, they may encourge a troop to surround a cart, protecting different areas.
   
   Considerations
   
   * Recipies for mount type & materials; varies stats speed/capacity/stamina/etc
   * Can only be ridden by the pilot
   * Pilot & cargo are vulnerable, just like on any mount
   * Pilot has visibility just like on any mount   
   * Killing the wagon's mounts is resolved by damaging the cart, same conclusion.
   * Cart tires just like a regular mount. 
   * Guard pilot & Guard wagon managed with existing code
   * Cart Inventory managed with existing code   
   * Stamina management with existing code
   * Mount/rest message reflect mounts resting and pilot climbing on platform.
   * Makes hiring guards extremely attractive to protect the investment
   
   
   
   Wish List
   
   * Money sink - Rentable at stables? High cost or a cost/day.
   * Money sink - Fairly fragile, but salvagable in the field if enough materials and skill are available.
   * Tweak to buck code depending on weight/stability of wagon and mount type.
   * Make it unhitchable. Whoever is "mounted" on the cart is the pilot/owner.
   * Guarding a cart prevents it from being mounted by a pilot, without a guard check.
   * Guarding a cart or pilot could protect both?
   * A pilot might be slightly more protected against a onslaught than a similarly mounted rider, depending on the cart type.

[FantasyWriter]

I also wouldn't mind a hand-cart "mount" that couldn't be mounted, but could be hitched to you and carry a lot of weight as you pull it, reducing your stamina drain.  Could also be mounted by another (PC drawn NOBLE/TEMPLAR charriot!)

[Marshmellow]

FantasyWriter, I would prefer it boost your stamina drain, probably by increasing your encumbrance, but anything placed in the cart, up to the cart's limit, does not count against your encumbrance in any way.

[FantasyWriter]

Agreed.

[evil_erdlu]

4.  It's silly that you can't stick a spear in the spokes of the front wheel and make a wagon donkey-kick it's occupants forward out of their seats.

Only a spear? Maybe a whole log. And five half-giants to hold it tight. Wagons are large. Argosies are titanic houses on wheels.

EDIT - 5.  Chance of breakdown!  Wooden wheels would break on stony ground or torque and break in deep sand very regularly.  Strand those wagon-riding mfers in the red desert.

Uh.. It could be fine.. There are people with 'wagonmaking' as a skill, which currently does... stuff that you sell as parts. If simple stuff that can be arranged with the clan imms with a request like 'We have prepared two wagon wheels, two hubs and twelve spokes to replace the last broken wagon. When shall we meet for the wagon repair RPT?"

But having it broken during an ordinary trip - say, without intervention from gargantuan animals or raiders of skill? Nope.. Even if it breaks, let it slow down and keep on breaking, so you can quickly ride it to Luir's, leave it in the wagonyard and later come back with the repair crew. I would hate to be stranded in the middle of nowhere with a useless wagon to repair.

[Little_Cacophony]

You act as if the game is lacking in terms of players.

That's hardly an issue.

It's not difficult to get six players or more together for an rpt.

It is a huge issue.

It only takes about two weeks to get six designated players together for a rpt, and that is if you are on during peak time.

It takes me about 2 weeks to have a scheduled meeting with any one pc in any clan. But I am just damned inefficient.

Anyone who drives a vulnerable wagon and actually hires random, untested Bynner recruits as escorts deserve to have their wagon burned down and the ashes spread to the four winds.  I'd rather driving a wagon not become a HRPT.

Beside, isn't it the staff rule is to have no wagon building?

Maybe the suggestions would be more suitable for Arm 2.

[Niamh]

Anyone who drives a vulnerable wagon and actually hires random, untested Bynner recruits as escorts deserve to have their wagon burned down and the ashes spread to the four winds.  I'd rather driving a wagon not become a HRPT.

Trouble during wagon trips is part of the fun, and I'm sorry that you feel that way.  By cruising through wagon trips as fast as you can and refusing to hire Byn for wagon escorts, you deprive a lot of people from some great roleplay.

[Little_Cacophony]

Anyone who drives a vulnerable wagon and actually hires random, untested Bynner recruits as escorts deserve to have their wagon burned down and the ashes spread to the four winds.  I'd rather driving a wagon not become a HRPT.

Trouble during wagon trips is part of the fun, and I'm sorry that you feel that way.  By cruising through wagon trips as fast as you can and refusing to hire Byn for wagon escorts, you deprive a lot of people from some great roleplay.

After having spent 4 months irl trying to hire Byn, I can tell you it is not from any lack of trying or effort on my part. Or was it six months? Pilot wagon is so boring and sleepy, I quite welcome trouble. Having spent 1 hour irl go from one city to Luirs, anyone who calls wagon driving fast should try walking - it's even faster.

I simply do not agree that each trip should become RPT. My main issue is the schedule, most of the possibilities proposed so far, from my point of view, just drags on the irl stress rather than fun. I would really prefer it if no one would make off peak any more unplayable and difficult than it already is.  When I only have 1-2 hours logged on to move things, I only have 1-2 hours to stay logged on.

[Niamh]

If that's not the type of thing you enjoy doing, then perhaps you should avoid the types of roles that involve wagons and escorts.