Not so random Armageddon Thoughts about Guild sniffin'

[spawnloser]

The real problem with guild sniffing and having your character react with that information is that it is metagaming.  Our characters do not know about guilds and subguilds and when you change your reactions to people because, "someone that can do X, Y and Z can't also do Q unless s/he has R subguild and then still not as good as S guild" is nothing your character could possibly know.  You, the player know, because you know the code.  Isn't the definition of twinking, in Arm's documentation, "using code or your knowledge of code to gain an IC advantage" ?  So... you using your knowledge of what guilds get what to make IC decisions to give yourself an advantage of any sort, isn't that twinky?

Then you have to consider the fact that special apps for additional skills could completely bork your assumptions.  Why guild sniff when your guild sniffing could actually get you to make assumptions that are completely wrong?  The thing is, you should KNOW this too.

[AI Fashion and Swag]

I can accurately say that I am within my IC rights to fire people if they cannot perform the job I hired them to perform IG.

[Armaddict]

I can accurately say that I am within my IC rights to fire people if they cannot perform the job I hired them to perform IG.

This is what I was getting at with the whole deal.

A basic principle of leadership is knowing the capabilities of your crew.  You don't go on a hiring spree without figuring these things out.  Likewise, you don't hire endlessly for your military clan, and assign each individual hire to pick the lock of the apartment you need to get into, then fire them when they can't do it.

You find this information beforehand.  You insure you're doing it correctly.  Calling it 'BS' to know your crew and mold your assignments to their abilities is walking around with huge blinders on.  I can understand sentiments and arguments about the smaller, finer details, but any leader who says that any sort of probing of abilities to their crew is 'complete bs' is not running things efficiently or in a manner that is optimally enjoyable to their clan.  Most understand both sides in the matter.

[Cutthroat]

I can accurately say that I am within my IC rights to fire people if they cannot perform the job I hired them to perform IG.

I don't think anyone's arguing against that.

The issue comes when PCs (not just hiring/leader PCs, anyone) ask questions of another that result in the narrowing down of that person's guild, and then assuming they have the capability to do every single skill in that guild without asking whether that character is actually good at any of them.

If guild_X gets guild skills A, B, C, D, and I know guild_X is the only guild to get both skills A and C together, then asking a PC if they have A & C, then assuming they also have B & D, is wrong, especially if B & D have little to nothing to do with A & C.

[Fredd]

I can accurately say that I am within my IC rights to fire people if they cannot perform the job I hired them to perform IG.

This is what I was getting at with the whole deal.

A basic principle of leadership is knowing the capabilities of your crew.  You don't go on a hiring spree without figuring these things out.  Likewise, you don't hire endlessly for your military clan, and assign each individual hire to pick the lock of the apartment you need to get into, then fire them when they can't do it.

You find this information beforehand.  You insure you're doing it correctly.  Calling it 'BS' to know your crew and mold your assignments to their abilities is walking around with huge blinders on.  I can understand sentiments and arguments about the smaller, finer details, but any leader who says that any sort of probing of abilities to their crew is 'complete bs' is not running things efficiently or in a manner that is optimally enjoyable to their clan.  Most understand both sides in the matter.

The funny thing is. I have seen a successfull guild burgler house guard. It took a bit, but he learned to fight.

[flurry]

Successfully run clans don't have to depend on guild-sniffing. I am sure a lot of people (myself included) have had clan experiences that bear that out.

[Rotten]

I have guild-sniffed before, but it was generally when the character had no intention of selling themselves (i.e. telling me what they're good at).  So then I have to find out what they are good for.

[Lizzie]

When I'm playing a boss-type, I'm not necessarily looking for someone who will be "good" at a task. I'm more looking for someone who is, or has the potential to be "capable" at the task. Such as a solid crafter who will, at some point, be able to provide a variety of types of items. Such as jewelry and clothing. Or armors and weapons. Or things made primarily of wood, such as arrows, boxes, bows, and tool handles. Maybe you can't make all of that the day I hire you, but if that's what I'm looking for, then I expect that you will be capable of it in the future. The OOC translation for that is, if it ain't on your skills list now, I hope you can branch it. Because I'm needing someone with those coded skills. I don't need another secret vivaduan/jeweler, or assassin/clothworker. If I did, I wouldn't waste time looking for someone who can make a variety of crafts.

[Fredd]

I have guild-sniffed before, but it was generally when the character had no intention of selling themselves (i.e. telling me what they're good at).  So then I have to find out what they are good for.

Don't hire them. They obviusly don't want the job.

[Aaron Goulet]

I can accurately say that I am within my IC rights to fire people if they cannot perform the job I hired them to perform IG.

Certainly true!  If someone is unable to perform the duties their position requires, firing them is probably a good idea, and certainly not poor form as far as I am concerned. Nor is asking if a character has any skill weaving baskets or sewing during an interview, if those are the skills that the position requires.

Asking similar questions to try and discern someone's OOC guild, and using that information to make IC decisions, is where the problem arises.  For instance, asking someone if they are able to find food in the desert when it isn't a requirement of the position.

This is what I was getting at with the whole deal.

A basic principle of leadership is knowing the capabilities of your crew.  You don't go on a hiring spree without figuring these things out.  Likewise, you don't hire endlessly for your military clan, and assign each individual hire to pick the lock of the apartment you need to get into, then fire them when they can't do it.

You find this information beforehand.  You insure you're doing it correctly.  Calling it 'BS' to know your crew and mold your assignments to their abilities is walking around with huge blinders on.  I can understand sentiments and arguments about the smaller, finer details, but any leader who says that any sort of probing of abilities to their crew is 'complete bs' is not running things efficiently or in a manner that is optimally enjoyable to their clan.  Most understand both sides in the matter.

Guild sniffing may be efficient, but it's also an abuse of OOC information.  As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there are other, more appropriate ways to handle things, although it may not be as immediate as sniffing out a PC's guild during an interview.  One could argue that ignoring your character's condition and crafting all day and night is efficient too, but it's also against the rules.

By advocating guild sniffing, you're essentially arguing that it's okay to break the rules because it makes you a more effective leader, when all you are really doing is selectively picking the classes you think you need in order for your clan to "win".  Instead of being uncreative and abusing OOC information to achieve success, perhaps you should refine your leadership and interviewing skills?

Successfully run clans don't have to depend on guild-sniffing. I am sure a lot of people (myself included) have had clan experiences that bear that out.

That has been my experience as well.  Over the past nine or so years, I've been in popular, highly successful clans whose leaders didn't resort to guild sniffing.  If you must rely on guild sniffing to be a successful leader, you're obviously doing something wrong.  I was also able to play a couple of middle-management leadership roles more recently, and I didn't find it too hard to hire the right people.

When I'm playing a boss-type, I'm not necessarily looking for someone who will be "good" at a task. I'm more looking for someone who is, or has the potential to be "capable" at the task. Such as a solid crafter who will, at some point, be able to provide a variety of types of items. Such as jewelry and clothing. Or armors and weapons. Or things made primarily of wood, such as arrows, boxes, bows, and tool handles. Maybe you can't make all of that the day I hire you, but if that's what I'm looking for, then I expect that you will be capable of it in the future. The OOC translation for that is, if it ain't on your skills list now, I hope you can branch it. Because I'm needing someone with those coded skills. I don't need another secret vivaduan/jeweler, or assassin/clothworker. If I did, I wouldn't waste time looking for someone who can make a variety of crafts.

That makes sense, and there is no harm in asking potential employees if they feel confident they can learn to sew, or make jewelry, or craft armor.  In fact, these are the questions you probably should be asking, rather than trying to figure out whether or not they can speak Cavilish (unless the job requires it).  If it turns out they are untrainable, kick their asses out on the streets.

I won't deny that there's more risk involved, but, just as it is in real life, when you hire an untrained worker, the best you can do is hope that they are able to pick things up as good as they claim they can.  If they can't, you fire them.



Speaking of real-world analogies, people have likened guilds to resumes; if that's the case, would you put:

Code Select Expand

- Might eventually be able to learn how to code in C.

Or...

Code Select Expand

- Barely able to operate a fax/copier, and messes up most of the time.

...On your resume?  Maybe if you didn't really want the job.  It's a poor analogy, at best.



I'm disappointed by how many people are simply failing to acknowledge that guilds are OOC constructs, and that guild sniffing is an abuse of OOC information.  Nobody is disputing it...  They're simply avoiding the subject and advocating guild sniffing anyway.  If I see any obvious cases of guild sniffing in the future, I'm going to report them as a violation of the rules.  It is my hope that the staff will handle them accordingly.

EDIT: Added horizontal rules so people can pick through only the sections they find relevant.

[Old Kank]

The "I need to make sure they're qualified!" arguments are complete BS.

You, sir, have never run a clan.  If you did, you ran it poorly and without goals, delegation to your minions, and so on and so forth.

You made your assertion, and I have made mine.

More of my characters have been in leadership positions than have not; some were successful, some were not.

My experiences with leadership in this game, both as a leader and an underling, is that the best leadership attributes are availability, reliability, and dedication and very little to do with another character's class.  What kind of goals are you setting, and delegation are you doing, that requires you to know that your underlings are class X, or class Y?  I can't think of any.  Does that make me a bad leader, or, and I mean no offense, is that a reflection of your narrow expectations of other players?

If I'm in a leadership role and I'm dealing with a new player, chances are good that they'll wear their class on their sleeve, and I won't have to do any guild-sniffing, and I can give them WoW-style goals ("Bring me 10 gortok pelts!  Here's a bag of obsidian: Go make me 50 arrowheads!") that will help them learn their class and the game.  If I'm dealing with a non-new player, however, I'll give them goals specific to their role and character, but not their class.  Moreover, give me a few days with any character in the game, and I'll probably be able to narrow down their class anyway without ever asking them a single question about their background, or tasking them with a single thing, and then I'll be able to utilize their abilities without guild-sniffing.

If I'm playing a Kadian merchant, and someone comes to me for a job as a hunter, then that's the job I'll consider them for.  It doesn't matter if they're a ranger, a Whiran, or a pick-pocket.  If, after a few weeks, it's clear that they have no aptitude for hunting then I won't send them out hunting kryl, but chances are good I'll expect them to keep training, and let them continue to mooch off my pay roll.  I'm playing a game, not running a Fortune 500 company, and that character's presence is worth more to me than their ability to shoot a bow.  If Amos can't bring me 20 gurth shells, Malik can, so I don't need Amos to be productive as a hunter.  If Amos could do it, that would be super, but our fortunes will not rise or fall based on him alone.

It's all about playing a role, not a class.

[Armaddict]

Edited to remove.

[Aaron Goulet]

If I'm in a leadership role and I'm dealing with a new player, chances are good that they'll wear their class on their sleeve, and I won't have to do any guild-sniffing, and I can give them WoW-style goals ("Bring me 10 gortok pelts!  Here's a bag of obsidian: Go make me 50 arrowheads!") that will help them learn their class and the game.  If I'm dealing with a non-new player, however, I'll give them goals specific to their role and character, but not their class.  Moreover, give me a few days with any character in the game, and I'll probably be able to narrow down their class anyway without ever asking them a single question about their background, or tasking them with a single thing, and then I'll be able to utilize their abilities without guild-sniffing.

...wait.  This whole discussion is about -asking- for skill information?  I thought that it was about paying attention knowing things about people you hire, whether that takes the first IC year of their employment or not. 

To my understanding, this discussion was about fishing for OOC information (a PC's guild) and using it to influence hiring decisions.  Otherwise known as guild sniffing.

I can think of another clan leader who played similarly to how Old Kank described in his post.  I remember us hitting our personnel capacity, being involved in some insane plots, and generally having a lot of fun.

[brytta.leofa]

Some of you guys seem anxious to help out "young" characters who (probably) have coded potential.  But I think it's okay for unskilled characters to have few employment options.  If you can afford to be choosy, by all means do.

Noble houses that hire soldiers really should be hiring people with a resume (or close connections to the estate).  Merchant houses should hire hunters who have stalked and killed game before, and crafters who can show several examples of their work.  Unless your clan specifically has a training division, should you really be training newbies?

It's not a bad thing to push wannabe-guards into the Byn, or for wannabe-crafters to have to scrabble their way up to that coveted position with House Salarr.

[jhunter]

There is a big difference between guild sniffing and qualifying someone icly for a job position. I think some people on both sides are getting the two mixed up and that's part of the dispute.

[roughneck]

I like guild sniffing and I like that it's very hard to hide the fact that your psionicist is a pisonicist and not actually a crafter/hunter/whatever.  If as many people who tried to hide their fancy guild (and a lot of people try) actually succeeded at it this game would be like a comic book with a seemingly normal characters possessing mounds of secret powers in every house, bar and alley.  Red Storm would be the x-men base, more than it is already.

I enjoy the available guilds anyways and like the challenge of trying to accomplish tasks and strategize within their limitations.

I also like that if my ranger wants to join a clan, he will get picked over some nilazi looking for a free ride until he gets badass because the employer can discern who's useful.

[jriley]

I like this thread.  Seems like a lot of people are very candidly sharing their thoughts on a subject, one that's not easy to discuss.

[Armaddict]

If you can afford to be choosy, by all means do.

That's a factor as well.

[Aaron Goulet]

There is a big difference between guild sniffing and qualifying someone icly for a job position. I think some people on both sides are getting the two mixed up and that's part of the dispute.

That's a good point...

Clarification of what I think guild sniffing is:

• Attempting to determine someone's guild with the intent of using that information to influence in-character decisions.

Clarification of what I do not think guild sniffing is:

• Asking a character ICly if they are able to perform a necessary task.
• Asking a character ICly if they think they might be able to learn how to perform a certain task, with time.

I like guild sniffing and I like that it's very hard to hide the fact that your psionicist is a pisonicist and not actually a crafter/hunter/whatever.  If as many people who tried to hide their fancy guild (and a lot of people try) actually succeeded at it this game would be like a comic book with a seemingly normal characters possessing mounds of secret powers in every house, bar and alley.  Red Storm would be the x-men base, more than it is already.

Should your character (not you) be able to determine that other characters are burglars, psionicists, or magickers by the simply fact that they can't perform certain tasks?  Just because we, as players, know that guilds exist, doesn't mean that our characters do.  I hope that you are failing to make this distinction out of ignorance and not out of a blatant disregard for the game's OOC guidelines.

[WagonsHo]

Noble houses that hire soldiers really should be hiring people with a resume (or close connections to the estate).  Merchant houses should hire hunters who have stalked and killed game before, and crafters who can show several examples of their work.  Unless your clan specifically has a training division, should you really be training newbies?

Because I won't have employees, otherwise, especially when it comes to crafters.

[Samira]

I think much of the problem can be avoided by people applying to these positions saying they have experience doing something if they have the coded skill for it, and saying that they don't have experience doing something if they don't have the coded skill.  Something like that.

[Fredd]

Noble houses that hire soldiers really should be hiring people with a resume (or close connections to the estate).  Merchant houses should hire hunters who have stalked and killed game before, and crafters who can show several examples of their work.  Unless your clan specifically has a training division, should you really be training newbies?

Because I won't have employees, otherwise, especially when it comes to crafters.

So True. Once a crafted gets out of the Newb phase, there very self sufficiant in ways of making the black.

But I would still love for a crafter to come to me and be a newb and be like " Here, i made this comb and chest, Look at my workmanship"

I'de hire them on the spot.

[Aaron Goulet]

I think much of the problem can be avoided by people applying to these positions saying they have experience doing something if they have the coded skill for it, and saying that they don't have experience doing something if they don't have the coded skill.  Something like that.

I think that would help, yes.  To my recollection, I've only twice in my long career had a PC apply for a job that they weren't qualified for, and one was the Byn.

[roughneck]

I like guild sniffing and I like that it's very hard to hide the fact that your psionicist is a pisonicist and not actually a crafter/hunter/whatever.  If as many people who tried to hide their fancy guild (and a lot of people try) actually succeeded at it this game would be like a comic book with a seemingly normal characters possessing mounds of secret powers in every house, bar and alley.  Red Storm would be the x-men base, more than it is already.

Should your character (not you) be able to determine that other characters are burglars, psionicists, or magickers by the simply fact that they can't perform certain tasks?  Just because we, as players, know that guilds exist, doesn't mean that our characters do.  I hope that you are failing to make this distinction out of ignorance and not out of a blatant disregard for the game's OOC guidelines.

You're about as tactful as a hammer and no, I don't fail to make the distinction between myself and my character.
Merely saying I like that it's difficult to take a character that has devoted his life to obscure and arcane mysteries yet pass as someone who's devoted their life to trade work.  Also that it makes sense that Salarr hires people who can skin and the byn promotes people who can fight and lets the rest fend for themselves.

Sorry if I communicated something else, I see how my post could be understood differently.

[Old Kank]

Noble houses that hire soldiers really should be hiring people with a resume (or close connections to the estate).  Merchant houses should hire hunters who have stalked and killed game before, and crafters who can show several examples of their work.  Unless your clan specifically has a training division, should you really be training newbies?

Because I won't have employees, otherwise, especially when it comes to crafters.

This was kind of my point several posts back.  Forget qualifications.  Between the low playerbase numbers, the high mortality rate, the big world, the ~6 playing locations, and the number of clans, it's hard enough to just hire people in general without trying to find that person perfectly suited for the job.

All debating aside, I think it's worth pointing out that some of the best clans in the game have been the sort that just hire pretty much indiscriminately, seeing who sticks around more than a few weeks, and then working with that.